HoWWrses: Game Thread

[SkiOtter]

It might be because they're still unfamiliar of your playstyle. People who play often are more likely to be nightkilled first then those back from a hiatus. There's always potential.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

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[Animal Midwife]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

It might be because they're still unfamiliar of your playstyle. People who play often are more likely to be nightkilled first then those back from a hiatus. There's always potential.

 

[SkiOtter]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

It might be because they're still unfamiliar of your playstyle. People who play often are more likely to be nightkilled first then those back from a hiatus. There's always potential.

D1: While you daydreamed of Florida sunshine, someone slipped a noose around your neck. You have been lynched and are now dead.

 

[Karabiner13]

This is as much a reminder to me as everyone else. I totally agree tough skin is needed. But I think there is a way to play this game while being respectful and not resulting to personal insults, which has seemed extremely common to me. I didn't even want to play this game because of it, but kara signed me up. I think y'all might have more success with noobs sticking around and playing more if everything got a little friendlier and less personal, but this is my personal opinion.

I only signed you up because you made the comment about me not playing which made it aound like you were tying your fate to whatever I did. You may not have realized it but you still could have backed out. Mods knew you hadn’t confirmed and I had signed you up jokingly

Wish you hadn’t been killed so early. I was enjoying pm’ing with you and you were my first village read so I was trusting you

 

[Animal Midwife]

quotes

Still not seeing how this is outside my original statement.

 

[SkiOtter]

Still not seeing how this is outside my original statement.

its me, still salty, that i was killed night 1. on my first game in a year. after modding for 10-11 days.

 

[Animal Midwife]

its me, still salty, that i was killed night 1. on my first game in a year. after modding for 10-11 days.

Yes, but how is that related to my statement?

 

[ziggyandjazzy]

I only signed you up because you made the comment about me not playing which made it aound like you were tying your fate to whatever I did. You may not have realized it but you still could have backed out. Mods knew you hadn’t confirmed and I had signed you up jokingly

Wish you hadn’t been killed so early. I was enjoying pm’ing with you and you were my first village read so I was trusting you

I knowww I'm not actually mad at you

 

[Crayola227]

When I talk about logic, I mostly mean the ability to consider different possibilities.

For example, could a PM mash up ability be used to help village? What might that look like?

A player reveals to you that they are a vigilante, and they kill someone who turns out to be a wolf. Does this must mean they are for sure a villager, and it is impossible to lose to them if you're wrong?

A player is very strongly fishing for what your role is and how you can investigate others. Why would a villager act this way? Must this be wolfy? (and here we have what was my blindspot this game, and it got me again when cubs and genny were trying to work with me)

A player doesn't cast a self preservation vote until very close to deadline. Is there any way a villager would act this way?

AM suggests hunting for converts D2.

Basically, all of this is about determining what is NAI, AI, or more or less likely.

It is fine to come to conclusions about everything above, but I argue that it is important to consider the converse of a number of assumptions you might make about the game.

 

[Animal Midwife]

AM suggests hunting for converts D2.

I promise I never said this.

 

[Crayola227]

I want to shout out to @cubsrule4e & @muttmanager . You both did your best to keep an open mind and to incorporate other theories and viewpoints, and techniques for communication. I find that both of you have good contributions and have grown as players.

I'm sorry if at any point you felt like I didn't want you to play.

I will say there were a few places I said "you" and I was really meaning to be more general in my statements, places where later I could see that you were taking it more personally than it was meant. Not to say that there weren't points I was being personal and mean. Just not as much as it might have seemed. Plus when someone starts picking on your logic and criticizing you it can start to feel like they hate you. So I don't mean to invalidate your feelings that I was being mean, I was at points, but maybe not as much as I meant. So I'm sorry for that.

 

[Crayola227]

I promise I never said this.

You didn't. I was being a bit facetious and trying to come up with an example of something that would be out of meta and possibly AI.

 

[Animal Midwife]

You didn't. I was being a bit facetious and trying to come up with an example of something that would be out of meta and possibly AI.

It'd be more of a sign of my health than my affiliation because early convert hunting frustrates me even as a wolf.

 

[Crayola227]

My gut feels and a little bit of VCA work much better for me than trying to logic my way to the wolves through analyzing posts one by one (though that does work for some people).

There's nothing really logical involved in reading someone's tone and realizing they're lying.

I once read a really good book called.... I think it was the science of fear.

It basically broke down the concept of intuition. This gets into gestalt thinking and the like. Basically the brain is a big computer, and it's capable of making observations AND putting them together in ways that are not accessible to the conscious mind, beyond passing along the "gut feeling." There's some thought that this *is* the gut feeling. That intuition/gut feelings on not based on nothing (obviously, since we have to read the thread not meditate in a vacuum to figure out who the wolves are) shouldn't be a surprise.

There were some interesting examples in the book. A lot of times, what those elements were become more clear with hindsight. A lot of it, upon examination, make plenty of "sense" as far as conclusions drawn by one's intuition/gut.

As far as people having questions about the "gut feels," and defending, something I've tried to do early on is figure out ways of finding words to explain what seems off to me in someone's play, if for no other reason that trying to articulate that might help another villager who didn't put things together to see it as well and vote with you. There's a million reasons why this fails, as you can see with my Kara & Weim analysis. Still, even if one can't articulate how they caught someone in their lie, doesn't mean there wasn't something there to see to pick up on it, something that might not defy explanation in words.

Lastly, the concept of logic. I'm not talking about Mr. Spock zero feels and only basing something on mechanics or a wolf's arguments about another player. Even if we're having a gut feel, the way that each of us acts on that gut feel, for most of us, is consistent with our own inner sense of logic. I wish I was doing better with words. It has to do with how you can have different internal schemas, how each of us can weigh different things differently, and have different worldviews and ways that we think make sense to act on it, but for the most part, each of us thinks that the way we play is the most logical.

For example, many of us are able to articulate how we feel about interactions with a 3rd party as we work towards a village win con. We may come to different conclusions. I hope that each of us is postulate what makes the most sense to us individually.

Later, how people deviate from those views could be a clue.

 

[vetmedhead]

I once read a really good book called.... I think it was the science of fear.

It basically broke down the concept of intuition. This gets into gestalt thinking and the like. Basically the brain is a big computer, and it's capable of making observations AND putting them together in ways that are not accessible to the conscious mind, beyond passing along the "gut feeling." There's some thought that this *is* the gut feeling. That intuition/gut feelings on not based on nothing (obviously, since we have to read the thread not meditate in a vacuum to figure out who the wolves are) shouldn't be a surprise.

There were some interesting examples in the book. A lot of times, what those elements were become more clear with hindsight. A lot of it, upon examination, make plenty of "sense" as far as conclusions drawn by one's intuition/gut.

As far as people having questions about the "gut feels," and defending, something I've tried to do early on is figure out ways of finding words to explain what seems off to me in someone's play, if for no other reason that trying to articulate that might help another villager who didn't put things together to see it as well and vote with you. There's a million reasons why this fails, as you can see with my Kara & Weim analysis. Still, even if one can't articulate how they caught someone in their lie, doesn't mean there wasn't something there to see to pick up on it, something that might not defy explanation in words.

Lastly, the concept of logic. I'm not talking about Mr. Spock zero feels and only basing something on mechanics or a wolf's arguments about another player. Even if we're having a gut feel, the way that each of us acts on that gut feel, for most of us, is consistent with our own inner sense of logic. I wish I was doing better with words. It has to do with how you can have different internal schemas, how each of us can weigh different things differently, and have different worldviews and ways that we think make sense to act on it, but for the most part, each of us thinks that the way we play is the most logical.

For example, many of us are able to articulate how we feel about interactions with a 3rd party as we work towards a village win con. We may come to different conclusions. I hope that each of us is postulate what makes the most sense to us individually.

Later, how people deviate from those views could be a clue.

If you're interested in other books about metacognition, you might like Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. It's sort of the inverse of the book you talk about here in that it acknowledges the strengths of the fast thinking process you outline here but discusses its inherent weaknesses as well. It contrasts these with slower, more iterative thought processes. There's a fabulous discussion about how those fast decisions can be augmented by the slower ones and how that can help you build a more useful and complex approach to reasoning without losing the benefits of either decision making process.

 

[Crayola227]

How do you defend a gut feeling? I've accepted my gut is usually wrong, so to counter that how do you agree with out being called out as sheeping?

The best way, I think, to avoid being called sheeping, is to build on whatever you agree on about another player.

Say genny points out that I've been too quiet and that she thinks it's wolfy for me. You could say, "I agree with genny that Cray is being too quiet. I've considered that she said she would be busy with ___, but beyond being quiet, when she's come on thread her tone is off. She seems like she doesn't really care what's going on. She's voting really early and not offering much explanation."

What you build onto what you're agreeing with, it can further support the first player's case. However, it's OK for it to make points against the first point, and for you to still ultimately agree. This is what I mean by "logic." You consider the instance where I am truthfully absent vs lying. You consider what about my play helps you decide which in your opinion.

It's tough to do because sometimes it really is the easiest thing to do to agree with someone else, and you might be legit lost in making your own arguments beyond just recognizing others' good arguments. Sometimes that's the most you have to contribute. That's OK, because while the ideal villager generates new thoughts, equally important is recognizing what of what other players are doing is good/bad/elucidative.

I think it helps with the sheeping concept, to admit where you might be sheeping someone. "Genny makes a good point about Cray. I don't have much to add at this point on about Cray, she got it in a nutshell."

HOWEVER you should be able to add a different point on something else somewhere. "I've noticed Snowy is doing blah blah, I think that's very village." Because if you do the former without the latter, then it definitely looks like sheeping.

This is because sheeping is typically a pattern that implies lazy thinking. Wolves can find it hard to appear like they are actually thinking critically about the thread to wolf-hunt, and to generate what appears like original thought. Wolves also can fall into a trap of doing whatever the lynch mob wants, or following someone else's vote in an attempt to suck up to them. Wolves also do this to try to deflect blame for their own votes.

So you want to strive not to seem like you're doing it as a pattern. So it's one thing to say "When it comes to Cray, it helps if people point out what she's doing and I'll decide if I agree or not, but for the most part I'm going to have to rely on genny and Snowy's opinions on her."

Then you want to try to show you're having your own thoughts about genny and Snowy and why you're trusting them. It's OK for villagers to agree and for you to trust other players (to a point!). You can see where blind trust might look wolfy and if nothing else is a problem for villagers to do.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[Crayola227]

You could probably trust them when you didn’t get night killed lol

Believe me, this isn't always true. A lot of WIFOM. So many wolves will leave PR PM partners alive if they think they are minimally harmful to the wolf agenda, like say a PM ability or something, and even more important ones if they can build trust and get that villager to "work with them."

If I'm a wolf, and my PM partner is Cubs the bodyguard, I might really think twice about killing them if I think that maybe Cubs only told one other player, their other PM partner. I need to be sure that if Cubs ends up dead, it is believable to that player that the wolves picked Cubs as a NK without me being the one to call it.

If I think it'll be hard to survive the heat of a Cubs NK, then I may settle for building trust and knowing where Cubs is going to protect, and passing that along to the pack. There are ways for a village PR to mislead a PM partner they suspect is wolfy and trying to pocket them to foil this kind of thing, of course.with PRs especially, if I think they might have revealed to someone else that they revealed to me.

This is what I mean by logic. Consider for a moment why a wolf might not kill a villager PR known to them, or a villager PR PM partner. It might seem obvious that they would, and it is true that is how many villager PRs end up dead. But using that to clear someone, there is a logical flaw, mostly that a wolf might indeed keep you around for a while.

 

[genny]

Believe me, this isn't always true. A lot of WIFOM. So many wolves will leave PR PM partners alive if they think they are minimally harmful to the wolf agenda, like say a PM ability or something, and even more important ones if they can build trust and get that villager to "work with them."

If I'm a wolf, and my PM partner is Cubs the bodyguard, I might really think twice about killing them if I think that maybe Cubs only told one other player, their other PM partner. I need to be sure that if Cubs ends up dead, it is believable to that player that the wolves picked Cubs as a NK without me being the one to call it.

If I think it'll be hard to survive the heat of a Cubs NK, then I may settle for building trust and knowing where Cubs is going to protect, and passing that along to the pack. There are ways for a village PR to mislead a PM partner they suspect is wolfy and trying to pocket them to foil this kind of thing, of course.with PRs especially, if I think they might have revealed to someone else that they revealed to me.

This is what I mean by logic. Consider for a moment why a wolf might not kill a villager PR known to them, or a villager PR PM partner. It might seem obvious that they would, and it is true that is how many villager PRs end up dead. But using that to clear someone, there is a logical flaw, mostly that a wolf might indeed keep you around for a while.

This is so true, and also my favorite thing to do as a wolf: gain the trust of village PRs and basically render their ability useless. Or even better, use it to the advantage of the wolves!

 

[PippyPony]

How do you defend a gut feeling? I've accepted my gut is usually wrong, so to counter that how do you agree with out being called out as sheeping?

Easy. Say it first

 

[muttmanager]

Easy. Say it first

If I say it first, its sketchy

 

[genny]

If I say it first, its sketchy

Everyone gets grilled. Just say it. You’ll get lynched sometimes, and sometimes you won’t. And then one day you realize you’ve played a billion games and getting lynched is only a minor annoyance.

 

[WildZoo]

And then one day you realize you’ve played a billion games and getting lynched is only a minor annoyance.

never

 

[genny]

never

I do like a good rage quit.

 

[PippyPony]

Everyone gets grilled. Just say it. You’ll get lynched sometimes, and sometimes you won’t. And then one day you realize you’ve played a billion games and getting lynched is only a minor annoyance.

never

Hell, I think I would be EXCITED to be lynched at this point because it means that people are afraid

 

[vetmedhead]

Hell, I think I would be EXCITED to be lynched at this point because it means that people are afraid

I'm just excited to die in general

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

I'm still waiting for my first night kill?? I was sure this would be the game

 

[vetmedhead]

I sometimes feel like people keep dragging me to end game because they know I hate it and are hoping my strategy will suffer because I hate it

Although in recent outings I've actually done pretty well in end game, I just hate it so much

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

I sometimes feel like people keep dragging me to end game because they know I hate it and are hoping my strategy will suffer because I hate it

Although in recent outings I've actually done pretty well in end game, I just hate it so much

I like dying midgame. Like day 4-5 before my attention span fades

 

[Caiter92]

I sometimes feel like people keep dragging me to end game because they know I hate it and are hoping my strategy will suffer because I hate it

Although in recent outings I've actually done pretty well in end game, I just hate it so much

I like end game because by then I’m less paranoid of everyone

 

[Animal Midwife]

I'm all for the endgame high because that's when I can really go into VCA.

 

[WildZoo]

I like end game because by then I’m less paranoid of everyone

Unless there are converts

 

[SnowshoeDog143]

I sometimes feel like people keep dragging me to end game because they know I hate it and are hoping my strategy will suffer because I hate it

Although in recent outings I've actually done pretty well in end game, I just hate it so much

I like end game because by then I’m less paranoid of everyone

I see what you did here...

 

[Caiter92]

I see what you did here...

It worked out perfectly

 

[SnowshoeDog143]

I like dying midgame. Like day 4-5 before my attention span fades

Same. I'll complain about dying early and I'll complain about not dying at endgame. It's hard to make me happy haha.

 

[dolphin106258]

I like end game because by then I’m less paranoid of everyone

I want to get to end game, I keep either getting killed early, or making it pretty close to end of the middle game and then getting NK’ed.

But I know everyone says take it as a compliment Bc you’re not being lynched.

 

[vetmedhead]

Same. I'll complain about dying early and I'll complain about not dying at endgame. It's hard to make me happy haha.

I usually don't like dying N1 or D1 because it's not enough time for me to get my high quality sense on humor onto thread

I'm a strong middle-of-the-game player I think

 

[Lawpy]

I just like getting nightkilled. Getting lynched depresses me

 

[Lawpy]

Although i'd rather get lynched than converted

 

[Stagg737]

Still on page 50 (awful week, still going to read the rest of it), but thanks for the game mods! Loved that I got to be Bojack. Both because I love that show and because I sing the opening theme song to the kiddo while I carry him to bath time every night!

 

[WildZoo]

Still on page 50 (awful week, still going to read the rest of it), but thanks for the game mods! Loved that I got to be Bojack. Both because I love that show and because I sing the opening theme song to the kiddo while I carry him to bath time every night!

Stop. My archnemesis is not allowed to be this cute.

 

[Stagg737]

Stop. My archnemesis is not allowed to be this cute.

Do I need to hydrate gratuitously and alienate the entire pre-vet and lounge forums to regain some cred?

 

[WildZoo]

Do I need to hydrate gratuitously and alienate the entire pre-vet and lounge forums to regain some cred?

Yes, please start ****posting about how vets aren't real doctors, and then go to the lounge and put chili in their beans.

 

[Stagg737]

Yes, please start ****posting about how vets aren't real doctors, and then go to the lounge and put chili in their beans.

Well, you're not. As a psychiatrist, I'm clearly just as qualified to perform surgery on a horse or cat as all you vets are since I went to real med school. In fact, I just might open up an emergency surgical vet clinic as a side gig for shiggles after residency!

Now I'll brb, gotta go tell the lounge that real Chili has at least 3 kinds of beans in it and was invented in Chicago.

 

[Melchizedek]

R.I.P. Stagg

 

[Stagg737]

R.I.P. Stagg

I mean, Dubz said she needed a better archnemesis, so there will be plenty of alienation incoming, lol.

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

Yes, please start ****posting about how vets aren't real doctors, and then go to the lounge and put chili in their beans.

I know it will end up with the same result but just thought it was funny

 

[WildZoo]

I know it will end up with the same result but just thought it was funny

I'm glad someone finally caught that