Official 2018 Rank Order Lists

[Wounded Healer]

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If my goals are to ultimately shoot for a CAP fellowship at the upper tier programs in the NE (NYC mainly), would this strong preference hurt/hinder those odds?

PD’s could answer this better, of course, but in my interview trail, One of the PD said half of the CAP fellowship spots left unfilled this year. I heard even Harvard didn’t fill their spots. What I was told is that no matter where you graduated, as long as you are a good resident, you have a good chance getting in Ivy-league fellowhip programs.

 

[Amygdarya]

If you were to pick between BIDMC and Montefiore, which one would you choose and why? Assuming location doesn't matter, although the latter does offer subsidized housing very close to the hospital, which may be a big factor? Factor enough to outweigh the BIDMC/Harvard opportunities for future career growth?

As Evidence Based said, these are two very different programs. Eg., Monti residents are consistently known among the happiest because of an easier workload and a focus on education, including a full day of didactics. On the other hand, BIDMC is one of the most hard working programs and its call is on the heaviest end of the spectrum. This obviously makes residency experiences very different. So the question is, are you perfectly fine with undergoing the rigor of BIDMC training to get whatever advantage you think it may give you? Which, by the way, is what exactly *for you*, aside from the Harvard name?
What are you interested in? What would you like to do after residency? Are you dead set on an academic career or open to other options? Any interest in subspecialties? These considerations should factor in if geography doesn’t matter and you feel good about both programs. We can’t answer this questions for you because we don’t know what you want in a program. But in any case while Monti is not Harvard-affiliated, it has a good reputation and won’t close any doors for you. You just need to figure out what *you* want in a program.

 

[raisinbrain]

Like several others, I'm pretty confident about my top few (triple board programs) and my bottom few ranks, but the middle of my list is a lot more fluid. I'm surprised by my own rank list in that some combined programs just didn't create the same gut feeling of excitement, and they keep moving farther down my list.

Any thoughts on these categorial psychiatry programs would be appreciated! My interests are in child psychiatry, medical comorbidities, complex cases (medically, psychiatrically, or socially - thus interests in inpatient and/or outpatient consults), and would like a research-friendly environment.

UPMC - loved that they had extensive resources, lots of opportunities for research, and I loved all of the child psychiatrists I met, including the CAP training director. Don't think I could go wrong here.

Brown - I loved the emphasis on child training and the flexibility to tailoring clinical and elective time to professional interests, and also how the psychiatry department seems to be well respected on campus. Also plenty of opportunities for research and/or collaboration with other departments on projects. Several people didn't respond to my emails, which makes me think they may not have enough of a collaborative vibe (?!) (I love the culture here in the midwest, and I think I'd miss it). It's on the wrong side of the country for my SO, so it loses a point there. Any thoughts on CL or medical aspects of psychiatry here?

Beyond here is where it gets murkier:

Mayo - contrasting with above, a clear focus on medical psychiatry, a smattering of specialty clinics that seemed pretty cool, and had friendly child psychiatrists. I felt welcomed, but not particularly at home in the culture there. Decreased (social) diversity of patients not helpful.

Iowa - really wanted to love Iowa (or Mayo) to be closer to family. Definitely a friendly college town, and I bet I'm missing something, but my emotional response was surprisingly bland.

Indiana - seemed like they have a decent variety of training experiences and some research opportunities, but I didn't seem to click as well with many people that I met on interview day (mostly combined residents).

Utah - nice facilities and a gorgeous view of the valley, but it was disappointed how much residents brought that up in conversation, leaving me a bit concerned about the rigor of clinical training. I don't want to have to depend on moonlighting to get enough experience, and CL didn't seem particularly strong.

Penn is of course an amazing program, but due to location and lack of integration with the CAP fellowship, it fell drastically down on my list. If I ended up here, I'd still be happy. Feeling fortunate to be ranking several programs I loved.

 

[molecularmimicry]

Hi all - I'm fairly confident in my #1 but can't make up my mind about places a little lower on my list. This is for categorical psych programs. Above all, location and lifestyle are key. I want to live in a major city with a good dating scene for women and a good lifestyle. My 2nd most important consideration is COL because I don't want to be one of those residents that has to take out loans for residency. Prefer biologic vs. psychotherapy focus. I'm pretty undifferentiated subspecialty-wise but like CAP & C/L, and I'm sure this will change a million times so I'm not putting so much stock into it. Would prefer to not have to buy a car unless this will fit into COL.

BIDMC - as stated above, solid all around Harvard program. Good research opportunities. Not super stoked about the psychotherapy focus. The biggest thing I can't seem to figure out is the workload, which seems to have changed after the BI/Brigham split. At dinner, an intern told me the work-life balance was good and that on psych, he worked an average of 2 weekends/month (which sounds pretty chill!). However, others on this board say it's toward the heaviest part of the spectrum? Please help me before I shoot myself in the foot (potentially).

Brown - apart from location, this may be my favorite program period. The residents are the happiest I've seen anywhere. Chill workload. Standalone CAP hospital. The only (and major) downside is Providence. I understand people have talked about how it's possible to have a spouse in Boston but what if you're single and want to find that special someone during residency? If anyone can weigh in on how feasible it is to date in Providence, would be awesome!

UChicago - First, the positives - residents seem very happy and lifestyle is great. Moonlighting abounds. What makes me feel a little hesitant is that they don't have their own inpatient unit and the impression I got was that the psych dept didn't receive a lot of institutional support/was well regarded within the university. The leadership also seems a bit unstable, with the chair being an interim chair and PD changing back this year. Not sure how much this matters really. Will need a car and considerable commute.

Northwestern - LOVED the PD here. Probably the strongest clinical training available in Chicago. However, the call schedule is crazy. Residents seem to make do but I'm not sure if it's really for me.

UCLA Semel - This is the program I have the MOST mixed feelings about. Pros: California sun, unique patient populations & wide breadth (celebs to vets to the homeless); can build PP clientele base very easily; Cons: high COL with only 54k starting salary. Unsure if subsidized housing is offered or how much it is (some residents said 1.4k, some said 2k). Likely also the heaviest workload of all my programs. Traffic and will need a car.

UWashington - Beautiful outdoors scenery. Climate is great too. Seattle would obviously be an ideal place for single women to date. To be honest, because so few residents showed up to dinner, I didn't get a strong sense of the program and what it's all about. Has a reputation for being work-horsey.

Thanks in advance!!!

 

[surfguy84]

Hi all - I'm fairly confident in my #1 but can't make up my mind about places a little lower on my list. This is for categorical psych programs. Above all, location and lifestyle are key. I want to live in a major city with a good dating scene for women and a good lifestyle. My 2nd most important consideration is COL because I don't want to be one of those residents that has to take out loans for residency. Prefer biologic vs. psychotherapy focus. I'm pretty undifferentiated subspecialty-wise but like CAP & C/L, and I'm sure this will change a million times so I'm not putting so much stock into it. Would prefer to not have to buy a car unless this will fit into COL.

BIDMC - as stated above, solid all around Harvard program. Good research opportunities. Not super stoked about the psychotherapy focus. The biggest thing I can't seem to figure out is the workload, which seems to have changed after the BI/Brigham split. At dinner, an intern told me the work-life balance was good and that on psych, he worked an average of 2 weekends/month (which sounds pretty chill!). However, others on this board say it's toward the heaviest part of the spectrum? Please help me before I shoot myself in the foot (potentially).

Brown - apart from location, this may be my favorite program period. The residents are the happiest I've seen anywhere. Chill workload. Standalone CAP hospital. The only (and major) downside is Providence. I understand people have talked about how it's possible to have a spouse in Boston but what if you're single and want to find that special someone during residency? If anyone can weigh in on how feasible it is to date in Providence, would be awesome!

UChicago - First, the positives - residents seem very happy and lifestyle is great. Moonlighting abounds. What makes me feel a little hesitant is that they don't have their own inpatient unit and the impression I got was that the psych dept didn't receive a lot of institutional support/was well regarded within the university. The leadership also seems a bit unstable, with the chair being an interim chair and PD changing back this year. Not sure how much this matters really. Will need a car and considerable commute.

Northwestern - LOVED the PD here. Probably the strongest clinical training available in Chicago. However, the call schedule is crazy. Residents seem to make do but I'm not sure if it's really for me.

UCLA Semel - This is the program I have the MOST mixed feelings about. Pros: California sun, unique patient populations & wide breadth (celebs to vets to the homeless); can build PP clientele base very easily; Cons: high COL with only 54k starting salary. Unsure if subsidized housing is offered or how much it is (some residents said 1.4k, some said 2k). Likely also the heaviest workload of all my programs. Traffic and will need a car.

UWashington - Beautiful outdoors scenery. Climate is great too. Seattle would obviously be an ideal place for single women to date. To be honest, because so few residents showed up to dinner, I didn't get a strong sense of the program and what it's all about. Has a reputation for being work-horsey.

Thanks in advance!!!

Unless you're into chicks so hipster they make San Francisco girls look like sorority girls... I'd avoid Seattle.

 

[molecularmimicry]

Unless you're into chicks so hipster they make San Francisco girls look like sorority girls... I'd avoid Seattle.

LOL, I'm a girl. I'd be going for those Amazon programmer types prolly.

 

[Evidence Based]

BIDMC - as stated above, solid all around Harvard program. Good research opportunities. Not super stoked about the psychotherapy focus. The biggest thing I can't seem to figure out is the workload, which seems to have changed after the BI/Brigham split. At dinner, an intern told me the work-life balance was good and that on psych, he worked an average of 2 weekends/month (which sounds pretty chill!). However, others on this board say it's toward the heaviest part of the spectrum? Please help me before I shoot myself in the foot (potentially).

I had a similar feeling about BIDMC- it was a little hard to get a sense of what call would be with the split residency and increase in class size. Although everyone agree it would be "better." My notes had the following for call:
PGY-1: 4-6 weeks night float on the inpatient floors (relatively chill)
PGY-2: q10-14 nights and weekends for ED and consults (very intense, will be less intense in two years when there is PGY-3 backup in-house)
PGY-3: q 15 evening shifts (6-11) and weekends for ED and consults
PGY-4: q10 backup home call

I get the sense that people saying call is "intense" are talking not just about the frequency (which is certainly a little heavier, but not crazy) but what call is like when you're at the hospital. Residents I talked with universally described night call in the BIDMC ED with words like "wild" "intense" etc due to the high volume of consults and level of pathology, and said they basically never slept. I suspect that may be bleeding a little bit into talking about what call is like.

Brown - apart from location, this may be my favorite program period. The residents are the happiest I've seen anywhere. Chill workload. Standalone CAP hospital. The only (and major) downside is Providence. I understand people have talked about how it's possible to have a spouse in Boston but what if you're single and want to find that special someone during residency? If anyone can weigh in on how feasible it is to date in Providence, would be awesome!

Never lived in Providence itself (although others on this board have). Given the high number of grad students in PVD I think the dating pool is decent, but probably not as good as Boston. I've met folks from Rhode Island who come up to Boston for dates, but that's anecdotal on my part.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

LOL, I'm a girl. I'd be going for those Amazon programmer types prolly.

Doesn't mean you *couldn't* be into hipster chicks...

 

[molecularmimicry]

I had a similar feeling about BIDMC- it was a little hard to get a sense of what call would be with the split residency and increase in class size. Although everyone agree it would be "better." My notes had the following for call:
PGY-1: 4-6 weeks night float
PGY-2: q10-14 nights and weekends
PGY-3: q 15 evening shifts (6-11) and weekends
PGY-4: q10 backup home call

I get the sense that people saying call is "intense" are talking not just about the frequency (which is certainly a little heavier, but not crazy) but what call is like when you're at the hospital. Residents I talked with universally described night call in the BIDMC ED with words like "wild" "intense" etc due to the high volume of consults and level of pathology, and said they basically never slept. I suspect that may be bleeding a little bit into talking about what call is like.



Never lived in Providence itself (although others on this board have). Given the high number of grad students in PVD I think the dating pool is decent, but probably not as good as Boston. I've met folks from Rhode Island who come up to Boston for dates, but that's anecdotal on my part.

Thanks Evidence Based! I see what you mean about call intensity. I'd honestly have 2 weekend calls a month where I don't sleep rather than more frequent but chill calls. Either way, I'd have to be at the hospital. *shrugs* Looking at the frequency alone, it doesn't seem bad. About average, I'd say. IDK why, I guess I wasn't smart about applying but most of my programs work you pretty hard. I should've done some more research before I applied. *sigh*

 

[Monocles]

I had a similar feeling about BIDMC- it was a little hard to get a sense of what call would be with the split residency and increase in class size. Although everyone agree it would be "better." My notes had the following for call:
PGY-1: 4-6 weeks night float
PGY-2: q10-14 nights and weekends
PGY-3: q 15 evening shifts (6-11) and weekends
PGY-4: q10 backup home call

EB can you verify that?

BIDMC is moving night float to pgy-1?? It should definitely be a pgy-2 service as it's hellas intense. I never worked nights when I rotated at that hospital but from my night colleagues, it sounds like you would definitely want the skill level of at least a pgy-2 before you do nights...

 

[FlowRate]

PGY-1: 4-6 weeks night float
PGY-2: q10-14 nights and weekends
PGY-3: q 15 evening shifts (6-11) and weekends
PGY-4: q10 backup home call

BIDMC is moving night float to pgy-1?? It should definitely be a pgy-2 service as it's hellas intense. I never worked nights when I rotated at that hospital but from my night colleagues, it sounds like you would definitely want the skill level of at least a pgy-2 before you do nights...

PGY1 night float is on the inpatient unit, as it was for Longwood, and is usually very chill. The PGY2 is doing ED/floor consults and technically supervising the PGY1. In two years, when BIDMC residents are PGY-3, the PGY-2 night shifts will not be nearly as difficult, as there will be a PGY-3 helping during the busiest part of the night.

TL;DR I'd still say BIDMC is above-average call workload but it doesn't compare to the former combined Longwood program (half the call with 2/3 the residents = 75% call), which itself was never rated harder than places like Duke.

Similarly, BWH is a 25% call reduction, but the way it pans out is that BIDMC is frontloaded and BWH is not.

 

[Evidence Based]

EB can you verify that?

PGY1 night float is on the inpatient unit, as it was for Longwood, and is usually very chill. The PGY2 is doing ED/floor consults and technically supervising the PGY1. In two years, when BIDMC residents are PGY-3, the PGY-2 night shifts will not be nearly as difficult, as there will be a PGY-3 helping during the busiest part of the night.

Thanks for the clarification! My sense of it is the same (night float on the floors was pretty relaxed, its the ED/consults that are crazy), and I'll edit and clarify my original post for posterity's sake.

 

[675015]

Above all, location and lifestyle are key. I want to live in a major city with a good dating scene for women and a good lifestyle. My 2nd most important consideration is COL because I don't want to be one of those residents that has to take out loans for residency... Would prefer to not have to buy a car unless this will fit into COL.

So you want to live in an awesome city but not have to pay for it? 😉

 

[kirkirkir]

Hey guys, need some advice. Prefer big city, academic, therapy, lifestyle.

Cleveland Clinic
Northwell-SIUH
Maimonides
Kaiser Fontana
Rutgers NJMS
UNLV
Loma Linda
MCW

 

[buenasuerte]

Does anyone know about GWU's current institutional/departmental culture? resident morale? Or would any current residents speak to this anonymously? Like a lot about it, including the location, but the previous firing drama gives me pause.

 

[slappy]

Brown - apart from location, this may be my favorite program period. The residents are the happiest I've seen anywhere. Chill workload. Standalone CAP hospital. The only (and major) downside is Providence. I understand people have talked about how it's possible to have a spouse in Boston but what if you're single and want to find that special someone during residency? If anyone can weigh in on how feasible it is to date in Providence, would be awesome!

it depends on how proactive you are. it's not difficult if you're proactive and willing to go on dating apps. not sure how important this is to you, but i heard that there isn't a lot of ethnic diversity though? boston-providence distance is NOT bad at all and definitely feasible.

Brown is a pretty big school, and it's right there! If undergrads are too young, you'll find plenty of grad students. There are also pretty good culinary schools there (bonus: great food at the restaurants there). Agree about it being a great program by the way.

 

[SmallBird]

Brown - apart from location, this may be my favorite program period. The residents are the happiest I've seen anywhere. Chill workload. Standalone CAP hospital. The only (and major) downside is Providence. I understand people have talked about how it's possible to have a spouse in Boston but what if you're single and want to find that special someone during residency? If anyone can weigh in on how feasible it is to date in Providence, would be awesome!

it depends on how proactive you are. it's not difficult if you're proactive and willing to go on dating apps. not sure how important this is to you, but i heard that there isn't a lot of ethnic diversity though? boston-providence distance is NOT bad at all and definitely feasible.

I wanted to stay in New England after residency and chose Providence as the location I liked best, and am very happy I did. It is significantly larger that New Haven, cleaner, and has more of everything including people you might hope to date. There is a much more active nightlife here. Boston has less nightlife proportionally, but of course more people and is much larger, but is just too expensive. It’s probably the second best city in New England for social life, and yet also probably the least expensive New England city with lots of affordable apartments and housing very close to downtown. The food options are really excellent. If you don’t like the cold, high taxes, old buildings, poorly maintained roads, then you may have complaints about providence but they are the challenges that are common to this region as a whole. If you do come to Brown say hi.

 

[SmallBird]

Brown - apart from location, this may be my favorite program period. The residents are the happiest I've seen anywhere. Chill workload. Standalone CAP hospital. The only (and major) downside is Providence. I understand people have talked about how it's possible to have a spouse in Boston but what if you're single and want to find that special someone during residency? If anyone can weigh in on how feasible it is to date in Providence, would be awesome!

it depends on how proactive you are. it's not difficult if you're proactive and willing to go on dating apps. not sure how important this is to you, but i heard that there isn't a lot of ethnic diversity though? boston-providence distance is NOT bad at all and definitely feasible.

That is ridiculous, it’s extremely diverse.

 

[ohpsych]

Just throwing it out there again but I am beginning to feel the stress a little lol so I can't help but request some validation or advice. My top six programs are listed below:

Pitt
Indiana
Ohio State
Cleveland Clinic
Case/UH
Cincinnati

I would be more than happy and thankful to be at any of these programs but anyone have any suggestions or opinions? Indiana sort of shocked me and might actually be the most impressive program I was at, in many ways, but I will likely rank Pitt number 1 as it stood out the most overall. After that, I just felt most comfortable at OSU as I loved the residents and the workload seemed the most reasonable, but the gut feeling I got was that it seemed less academic. This may have been the attitude though as opposed to the reality. Any thoughts? Any comments are greatly appreciated as we get near to finalizing our rankings.

 

[clausewitz2]

Just throwing it out there again but I am beginning to feel the stress a little lol so I can't help but request some validation or advice. My top six programs are listed below:

Pitt
Indiana
Ohio State
Cleveland Clinic
Case/UH
Cincinnati

I would be more than happy and thankful to be at any of these programs but anyone have any suggestions or opinions? Indiana sort of shocked me and might actually be the most impressive program I was at, in many ways, but I will likely rank Pitt number 1 as it stood out the most overall. After that, I just felt most comfortable at OSU as I loved the residents and the workload seemed the most reasonable, but the gut feeling I got was that it seemed less academic. This may have been the attitude though as opposed to the reality. Any thoughts? Any comments are greatly appreciated as we get near to finalizing our rankings.

You'll need to comment on your preferences in some way, shape or form to get useful feedback about this.

 

[erys]

Hi everyone!

Can anyone comment on Drexel vs RWJ? I'm looking for program with strong psychotherapy and emergency/CL psych.

Drexel seems more resident-driven with a harder call schedule while RWJ seems more laid-back? However, it seems like theres a lot of traveling between sites at RWJ which is a draw back for me. Drexel has a new PD, but I'm unsure if that should matter. They both seem equally strong in psychotherapy and residents at both programs seem nice and happy.

 

[WingedOx]

That is ridiculous, it’s extremely diverse.

C'mon now, Providence gave Les Savy Fav to the world. Any city that can do such a thing gets a thumbs up in my book.

 

[Mass Effect]

So you want to live in an awesome city but not have to pay for it? 😉

They pay for it in taxes. Rentals should be more affordable. I get where the poster is coming from. Boston isn't awesome enough that I would want to pay $3000 for an apartment I could get for $1000 anywhere else.

 

[molecularmimicry]

I wanted to stay in New England after residency and chose Providence as the location I liked best, and am very happy I did. It is significantly larger that New Haven, cleaner, and has more of everything including people you might hope to date. There is a much more active nightlife here. Boston has less nightlife proportionally, but of course more people and is much larger, but is just too expensive. It’s probably the second best city in New England for social life, and yet also probably the least expensive New England city with lots of affordable apartments and housing very close to downtown. The food options are really excellent. If you don’t like the cold, high taxes, old buildings, poorly maintained roads, then you may have complaints about providence but they are the challenges that are common to this region as a whole. If you do come to Brown say hi.

This is very tempting for me to move Brown up to #2. It's just committing to a city for 4 years when the population is 180k when I'm used to living in a bigger city is a bit unnerving. If you don't mind, what types of people are there to date besides the university-affiliated people?

 

[tthhrrooaawwaayy]

Hi everyone!

Can anyone comment on Drexel vs RWJ? I'm looking for program with strong psychotherapy and emergency/CL psych.

Drexel seems more resident-driven with a harder call schedule while RWJ seems more laid-back? However, it seems like theres a lot of traveling between sites at RWJ which is a draw back for me. Drexel has a new PD, but I'm unsure if that should matter. They both seem equally strong in psychotherapy and residents at both programs seem nice and happy.

I interviewed at both. Liked RWJ better because of the vibe. But Drexel really impressed me with their didactics I sat in on and the quality of their psychotherapy training. Also their CRC was a plus. But it wasn't a stand out program for me other than that *for me.* But I do remember having an interesting convo with one of the psychotherapy supervisors who interviewed me

 

[munchausen]

Does anyone know about GWU's current institutional/departmental culture? resident morale? Or would any current residents speak to this anonymously? Like a lot about it, including the location, but the previous firing drama gives me pause.

I asked about this at my interview. The cancer incident is real, girl could not keep up with her resident duties and was asked to leave and then she went public with it and did a smear campaign. The other "firing" is just a rumor - girl's husband matched to GI fellowship and left because she had to move with him so it defs wasnt a firing and the residents still keep in touch with her and are friends with her. Seems more like rumors blown out of proportion due to that one cancer incident and nothing factual. I really liked the program too! and had the same hesitations so I just asked at the interview and had no concerns after

 

[SmallBird]

This is very tempting for me to move Brown up to #2. It's just committing to a city for 4 years when the population is 180k when I'm used to living in a bigger city is a bit unnerving. If you don't mind, what types of people are there to date besides the university-affiliated people?

Providence urban area has 1.2milliion people. Its about the size of Charlotte/Austin (check wikipedia). The city 'proper' may list a smaller population but thats not what to look at since thats really got to do with how they draw up the lines and not a way to assess the size of the dating pool! There are many people affiliated with Brown, then there are people affiliated with RISD and the other universities, and then a mixed group of people who are in finance, commuting to Boston, and a larger chunk of people who are artists in some capacity, running local coffee shops/restaurants etc. I guess its like anywhere except probably a greater chunk of university and creative people and fewer attorneys/insurance/business people.

 

[ohpsych]

You'll need to comment on your preferences in some way, shape or form to get useful feedback about this.

Fair enough. I do have things that are important to me but in terms of reputation, is there a significant difference at all among them? I feel like I can get great training at all of them but I may want to reflect a little if my impression is inaccurate. For example, my impression is that Cinci seems stronger in many ways in terms of research and training but I am ranking it last due to factors such as location and my overall fit based on the interview day. Are the Cleveland programs and OSU pretty much the same in what they offer? I don't rely on reputation, but its something that I at least want to think about in case I am missing something.

 

[saucin13]

Any thoughts on NYU? For or against? Vibes? Impressions? Some residents just looked relatively more exhausted than at other places. Love the breadth of training...don’t know if it’s worth it, if there are high burnout rates.

Do most graduates feel most comfortable working within the hospital vs outpatient?

 

[clausewitz2]

Fair enough. I do have things that are important to me but in terms of reputation, is there a significant difference at all among them? I feel like I can get great training at all of them but I may want to reflect a little if my impression is inaccurate. For example, my impression is that Cinci seems stronger in many ways in terms of research and training but I am ranking it last due to factors such as location and my overall fit based on the interview day. Are the Cleveland programs and OSU pretty much the same in what they offer? I don't rely on reputation, but its something that I at least want to think about in case I am missing something.

Pitt/WPIC is on your list. It has been either #1 or #2 in mental health research grant funding since the 80s. There are 300 psychiatrists on faculty. I am not sure in what way Cincy is better for research.

 

[raeka]

Can anyone comment on the call schedule at Michigan? I don't recall specifics but remember it being described as "heavy".

Also interested in hearing this; unfortunately neglected to take good notes and their website is very light on details.

 

[jwl934]

Does anyone know what the call schedule is like at UCSD? Similar to above, I've heard that it is intense/heavy, but I'm trying to gauge what that means.

 

[imgpsychapp2017]

Hey everyone!
I'm confused about a few programs on my list. So far I've ranked them as Mt Sinai St Luke's> Rush>Mayo>SUNY Downstate. Mt Sinai SLR and Downstate have good patient diversity, Rush maybe so and Mayo not so much. As far as location goes, I love NYC, never lived in Chicago but I've heard it's great too (and more affordable than NYC) and Rochester is Rochester. I'm interested in strong clinical and therapy training mainly (with the possibility of research involvement). Downstate is lower on my list simply because I didn't get a good feeling during the interview (not sure that's a good enough reason to rank it lower than the others mentioned above). Downstate did endorse that they were expanding on the research front...not sure what that means exactly. Does anyone have inputs about any of the programs or any suggestions about ranking them differently?
Thanks!

 

[Monocles]

Fair enough. I do have things that are important to me but in terms of reputation, is there a significant difference at all among them? I feel like I can get great training at all of them but I may want to reflect a little if my impression is inaccurate. For example, my impression is that Cinci seems stronger in many ways in terms of research and training but I am ranking it last due to factors such as location and my overall fit based on the interview day. Are the Cleveland programs and OSU pretty much the same in what they offer? I don't rely on reputation, but its something that I at least want to think about in case I am missing something.

You should go with a program that feels like a better "fit" for you (ex: patient population, location, resident culture, overall PD philosophy, etc) as opposed to reputation (unless it's like Stanford vs random community program). At the end of the day you'll graduate and get some amazing job offers no matter where you graduate from. Keep in mind that the downside of being at a "top # whatever" program is there can be a lot of terrible attendings that have egos that are greater than their teaching skills...

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Keep in mind that the downside of being at a "top # whatever" program is there can be a lot of terrible attendings that have egos that are greater than their teaching skills...

Amen! Of course some community programs make a habit of blessing run of the mill psychiatrists into faculty who have no teaching experience what so ever. Universities push for the triple threat professors who are remarkable at teaching, research and administration/clinician. Most of us are good at two out of three at best. Personally, the teaching is the fun part. The other two are necessary evils to get to teach.

 

[Coupd'Cat]

Hi all. Here's my rotating cast of characters, sitting on their rankles.

Pros: Since I'm pretty undifferentiated at the moment (but leaning toward community psychiatry or CL), comprehensive training sites are a pro. I like working w/ patients from immigrant backgrounds & exposure to public policy and/or human rights. I liked meeting residents who were warm, driven, and kept their interests alive in & outside of work. I'm all for a humane workload (though not too humane/light), and ideally would take all the call I want and be paid extra for the learning.

Neutral: Definitely not doing child/adolescent.

Cons: I was turned off by any whiff of narcissism or cloistered-ness. Some programs just felt too big an unwieldy--or seemed to have contentious relationships with the communities around them. My partner and I are not big fans of Boston, but Cambridge might be do-able.

Top half:
Yale (probably #1) - Liked New Haven, the PD, the residents.

in no particular order:

Penn - Low-key intense residents & faculty, but comprehensive & supportive. I'm ok with Philly.
NYU - High-key intense residents & faculty. BELLEVUE. A bit too big & discombobulated, anonymous.
Sinai - Quirky & flexible. Small community feels, maybe too insular.
CHA - Strong mission, great PD & residents. Might have to carve out some tertiary care exposure if I go down the CL route (which might be fine, given the Partners system is large enough).

Bottom half:
Brown - liked the PD and Providence, had weird interactions with a few residents.
Cornell - don't think they want me here.
Montefiore - a little too chill.
BIDMC - awkward vibes, Boston.

Many thanks for your thoughts before I go back to mulling over this list in a corner somewhere.

 

[Monocles]

Hi all. Here's my rotating cast of characters, sitting on their rankles.
Top half:
Yale (probably #1) - Liked New Haven, the PD, the residents.

in no particular order:

Penn - Low-key intense residents & faculty, but comprehensive & supportive. I'm ok with Philly.
NYU - High-key intense residents & faculty. BELLEVUE. A bit too big & discombobulated, anonymous.
Sinai - Quirky & flexible. Small community feels, maybe too insular.
CHA - Strong mission, great PD & residents. Might have to carve out some tertiary care exposure if I go down the CL route (which might be fine, given the Partners system is large enough).

Don't know much about the 3 NY programs but wanted to throw out a huge pitch in favour of CHA. Full disclaimer I am not a CHA resident but I am so biased in wishing that I had applied because of all the good things I hear about them from all my psych friends in boston. CHA is very community and immigrant oriented, their mission seems very focus on social equality and helping the underserved.

Bottom half:
Brown - liked the PD and Providence, had weird interactions with a few residents.
Cornell - don't think they want me here.
Montefiore - a little too chill.
BIDMC - awkward vibes, Boston.

I'm curious to know what you mean by Montefiore being "too chill" haha. Otherwise a fair list.

 

[Evidence Based]

Hi all. Here's my rotating cast of characters, sitting on their rankles.
Top half:
Yale (probably #1) - Liked New Haven, the PD, the residents.

Your rankles looks super strong to me, congrats on having an abundance of awesome choices! Just based on what you said, putting Yale #1 makes a ton of sense. Out of all the places I went it probably had the best combo of tertiary academic exposure and strong community mental health (CMHC is amazing). If those are the two things you're interested in, then this seems like an awesome fit for you. The residents also seemed awesome and down to earth, and it has a lot of the other things you're looking for. It would be been #2 on my list everything being equal, but I'm very geographically constrained so it fell farther down.

Don't know much about the 3 NY programs but wanted to throw out a huge pitch in favour of CHA. Full disclaimer I am not a CHA resident but I am so biased in wishing that I had applied because of all the good things I hear about them from all my psych friends in boston. CHA is very community and immigrant oriented, their mission seems very focus on social equality and helping the underserved.

Full disclosure (although I think we've already talked about this!) I'm ranking CHA #1 and loved it there for a lot of the reasons Monocles mentions here. If you're thinking C/L though, I'm not sure CHA is the absolute best fit. They get a lot of outpatient C/L and integrated care, but you would need to carve out extra time to go to BIDMC for tertiary care C/L experience. Also FYI CHA is not part of the Partners system (MGH, BWH, etc), although since it's a Harvard program you might be able to get in that way? Would be a better question for the PD if it would affect your rankles. But for the other things you mention (community psych exposure, humane workload, getting paid for extra call, cool residents, immigrant populations, etc) it's definitely a good fit. You and your partner would just have to decide how much you hate Boston! 😉

 

[Coupd'Cat]

Don't know much about the 3 NY programs but wanted to throw out a huge pitch in favour of CHA. Full disclaimer I am not a CHA resident but I am so biased in wishing that I had applied because of all the good things I hear about them from all my psych friends in boston. CHA is very community and immigrant oriented, their mission seems very focus on social equality and helping the underserved.

I'm curious to know what you mean by Montefiore being "too chill" haha. Otherwise a fair list.

Thanks for your thoughts~
As for Monte, I think its their reputation (fairly earned or not) for having a lower patient load and shorter days compared to the other NYC residencies. I'm not sure I'd like to have a full day of didactics either, though that seemed to be something the residents appreciated. I space out during lectures and retain more if I have a clinical experience/patient in mind to tie concepts to. A sprinkling of graduates from my home institution gravitated toward Monte for the life>work balance, particularly ones w/ kids. But I don't plan on spawning for a while.

Your rankles looks super strong to me, congrats on having an abundance of awesome choices! Just based on what you said, putting Yale #1 makes a ton of sense. Out of all the places I went it probably had the best combo of tertiary academic exposure and strong community mental health (CMHC is amazing). If those are the two things you're interested in, then this seems like an awesome fit for you. The residents also seemed awesome and down to earth, and it has a lot of the other things you're looking for. It would be been #2 on my list everything being equal, but I'm very geographically constrained so it fell farther down.

Full disclosure (although I think we've already talked about this!) I'm ranking CHA #1 and loved it there for a lot of the reasons Monocles mentions here. If you're thinking C/L though, I'm not sure CHA is the absolute best fit. They get a lot of outpatient C/L and integrated care, but you would need to carve out extra time to go to BIDMC for tertiary care C/L experience. Also FYI CHA is not part of the Partners system (MGH, BWH, etc), although since it's a Harvard program you might be able to get in that way? Would be a better question for the PD if it would affect your rankles. But for the other things you mention (community psych exposure, humane workload, getting paid for extra call, cool residents, immigrant populations, etc) it's definitely a good fit. You and your partner would just have to decide how much you hate Boston! 😉

Thanks--you as well! And thanks for the clarification. I've been lazy about shooting off emails to residents after the fact, but you're right--it'd be worthwhile for this particular question.

 

[studentdoctor3141]

Your rankles

This makes me imagine you sitting in your office rattling off forum post dictations using Dragon... 😛

 

[DrJeeling291]

Hi all! Thanks for all the useful information! I'm finalizing my rank list and could certainly use some input. I'm struggling with the top of my list, mainly because it seems there are just so many great programs... In regards to my interests and important factors, I have a strong interest in psychotherapy - this includes a particular interest in psychodynamics but I want to choose a program that will have strong training in other modalities as well. Other broad interests include medical education and administration. As far as eventual fellowships are concerned (if I even pursue that avenue), I'm still very unsure but may be interested in C/L? C&A? or possibly even forensics? I'm from the east coast and previously lived for a short time in NYC (has its + and -). I've never lived out West, but this has always intrigued me. The contenders:

UCLA Semel - Seemed like the Disneyland of psychiatry, ie. so many specialty clinics, tons of opportunities, very interesting but relaxed residents, beach house retreats, psych movie nights, etc. Love the idea of warm weather, beautiful setting, and outdoors activities but don't know LA well. Somewhat worried about changing PD, and seemed like it is possible to get lost in this huge, somewhat anonymous institution, farther away from support network. Also smaller salary in place with similar COL to others (Obviously NY and LA both have high COL).

Cornell - Such an interesting, intellectual environment. Obviously strong psychodynamic tradition (maybe at the expense of other therapy modalities/opportunities). Very formal but still friendly interactions with faculty/residents (but did feel like people I could get along well with). Felt much smaller than other places, which I think has benefits and drawbacks (maybe more mentorship but less formal opportunities?). Westchester seems to have some very unique units (good learning experience).

Columbia - Obviously very prestigious program, seems excellently balanced in terms of therapy training and biological approach. Residents seemed like amazing, interesting people. Good med ed opportunities. Faculty seemed somewhat cold (although obviously met very small percentage). Definitely felt it was more research heavy than other programs, although I know residents have differing interests and focuses. Don't like this area of NYC as much as Cornell, although I know many residents live in other parts and commute. Hospital seemed more disorganized.

Thoughts would be very much appreciated. Thanks!!!

 

[Monocles]

Thanks for your thoughts~
As for Monte, I think its their reputation (fairly earned or not) for having a lower patient load and shorter days compared to the other NYC residencies.

This is a good thing.

tougher training =/= better training. If you admit the 12th belligerent alcoholic that walks into your ER on call, it's not necessarily better than having seen 4 patients of various pathologies and having the time to properly reflect on your work.

 

[deleted736562]

This is a good thing.

tougher training =/= better training. If you admit the 12th belligerent alcoholic that walks into your ER on call, it's not necessarily better than having seen 4 patients of various pathologies and having the time to properly reflect on your work.

Volume is way overrated. It's the make-belief of some residency programs trying to justify their difficult workloads as "education". The only way to properly learn psychiatry is to spend a lot of time with patients, especially when starting out, cause ultimately that's the way you can properly understand what's really going inside the patient's mind and start seeing the patterns that ultimately lead to dysfunction and illness.

 

[WingedOx]

This is a good thing.

tougher training =/= better training. If you admit the 12th belligerent alcoholic that walks into your ER on call, it's not necessarily better than having seen 4 patients of various pathologies and having the time to properly reflect on your work.

Volume is way overrated. It's the make-belief of some residency programs trying to justify their difficult workloads as "education". The only way to properly learn psychiatry is to spend a lot of time with patients, especially when starting out, cause ultimately that's the way you can properly understand what's really going inside the patient's mind and start seeing the patterns that ultimately lead to dysfunction and illness.

So this isn't going to be a popular position, but I have to disagree here, and disagree quite strongly.

I've been fortunate enough to get to oversee residents at a few programs in my young career, and the quality of the residents at any particular point in their training is directly related to the amount of call they've taken. Reflecting on your patients is great and all, but it's no substitute for seeing a large number of patients that are otherwise similar, and being able to pick up the subtle differences in presentation and being able to tell when something is "off" that you need to worry about...and having the experience to know what you need to do: from actually doing it, multiple times. I take call at a pretty cushy program and I find myself frustrated at the level of resident diagnostic and management skill I see on weekend coverage, and it mostly comes down to "It's already Feburary. You should have more experience with this stuff by now."

People on this thread every year tend to laud programs that ease their interns into the program, but I was fortunate to fall into a program that tosses their trainees into the fire early on and was a lot of work throughout. It allowed me to become a lot more confident as a clinician more quickly in training and allowed me to develop more advanced skills with a better basic foundation. The more you see, the more you know, and the less you miss. It's still psychiatry. Even the worst programs have a pretty good lifestyle during training.

 

[ohpsych]

Pitt/WPIC is on your list. It has been either #1 or #2 in mental health research grant funding since the 80s. There are 300 psychiatrists on faculty. I am not sure in what way Cincy is better for research.

Oh sorry. I have Pitt as my number 1. Nothing against the other programs but WPIC is my dream program, even from my first year of med school. It was more comparing Cinci with OSU, Case, and CC. I am honestly just unsure. Overall, I had good experiences everywhere so besides location and gut feeling there is very little separating them to me since I don't have a dead set interest either. I apologize if I was unclear about my intentions as a lot has been going on lol.

 

[ohpsych]

You should go with a program that feels like a better "fit" for you (ex: patient population, location, resident culture, overall PD philosophy, etc) as opposed to reputation (unless it's like Stanford vs random community program). At the end of the day you'll graduate and get some amazing job offers no matter where you graduate from. Keep in mind that the downside of being at a "top # whatever" program is there can be a lot of terrible attendings that have egos that are greater than their teaching skills...

Very interesting. I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to respond. I was surprised by how tough the choices I had to make were. I think I definitely agree though and we shall see how this goes!

 

[deleted736562]

So this isn't going to be a popular position, but I have to disagree here, and disagree quite strongly.

I've been fortunate enough to get to oversee residents at a few programs in my young career, and the quality of the residents at any particular point in their training is directly related to the amount of call they've taken. Reflecting on your patients is great and all, but it's no substitute for seeing a large number of patients that are otherwise similar, and being able to pick up the subtle differences in presentation and being able to tell when something is "off" that you need to worry about...and having the experience to know what you need to do: from actually doing it, multiple times. I take call at a pretty cushy program and I find myself frustrated at the level of resident diagnostic and management skill I see on weekend coverage, and it mostly comes down to "It's already Feburary. You should have more experience with this stuff by now."

People on this thread every year tend to laud programs that ease their interns into the program, but I was fortunate to fall into a program that tosses their trainees into the fire early on and was a lot of work throughout. It allowed me to become a lot more confident as a clinician more quickly in training and allowed me to develop more advanced skills with a better basic foundation. The more you see, the more you know, and the less you miss. It's still psychiatry. Even the worst programs have a pretty good lifestyle during training.

One thing is certain: the number of calls is directly correlated to the number of colds you have. I wonder if there's been a study around that.

 

[Erratafromthetext]

Alright I've been trying to get my list together and I'm having a tough time. I'm interested in CAP or geri fellowship but really just want the best training possible, especially psychotherapy and exposure to a wide variety of cases and treatment modalities. I'm also not averse to working hard, so long as it is fruitful. Does anyone have thoughts on which are the best programs of my top 8? All I can see pros and cons for and all we're good fits. Thanks for any and all thoughts

IOL
Vermont
Suny Upstate
Rochester
Umass
Colorado
Maine Med
Baystate

 

[stef.ver]

Hey everyone! I'm almost finished with my list, I just can't seem to finalize my top 5. I'm interested in a child or forensics fellowship! I don't mind working hard as long as I know I'll be able to land the fellowship I want. Thanks in advance! 🙂

1. Univ of South Florida-- this program came across a little forced to me..? So I'm worried about ranking it #1. I can't put my finger on it but it does seem to be a good program
2. Univ of South Alabama-- I really liked the people here, but they really seemed to push their own C&A fellowship so I wonder if their residents go anywhere else. Loved the location though.
3. St. Louis Univ-- I loved the PD and faculty here! I just have a lot of family in the south so I worry about being so far in St. Louis.
4. Florida Atlantic Univ.-- New program so I am worried about kinks that need to be worked out.
5. UF Jacksonville-- Small program- but seemed to have nice faculty. Not a fan of Jacksonville at all really so thats the reason its #5.

 

[eleveneleven]

Any thoughts on NYU? For or against? Vibes? Impressions? Some residents just looked relatively more exhausted than at other places. Love the breadth of training...don’t know if it’s worth it, if there are high burnout rates.

Do most graduates feel most comfortable working within the hospital vs outpatient?

Also having a tough time with this one. I'll be ranking NYU very highly but not sure exactly where just yet. Like you said the breadth/extremity/volume of training is hard to beat and there is no doubt you would come out an extremely competent psychiatrist. That said I'm also held up on some of the vibes. I found the difference between NYU residents and those residents at most other interviews to be quite noticeable, with an overwhelming consensus that the program is extraordinarily hard and demanding with some going as far as second guessing their decision to train there/also wondering if has been worth it. When it's clear that most other programs really try and put on the best possible face on interview day, I found this tough to grapple with and also wonder whether the outcome is worth the demands. Some also mentioned "quirks" in the call schedule (which was oddly difficult to get at relative to most other programs) that are still not worked out. All of the attendings seemed phenomenal though, and the ethos of the place shines through and is really quite something.