OUWB vs. Wayne

[twayz]

Hey everyone,

I am very fortunate to have gotten accepted to both OUWB and Wayne. However, I am having a dilemma choosing which school I would like to go to. It would be really helpful to get some of you opinions on these schools.

I really appreciate your help!
Thanks.

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[aSagacious]

Moving to the school-specific discussions forum.

 

[235788]

Obviously wayne. Only go to oakland if you feel its your dream school.

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Someone JUST posted about this choice in another thread, an M1 I think, who ended up choosing OUWB. I'll try to find the link!

 

[serosanguinous]

Did you interview at both schools? These schools are about as dramatically different as can be.

Personally, assuming your IS, I would choose Wayne. It is a more established school. Larger class size. Urban environment with better clinical experience including a VA. Attendance optional and lots of students stream.

OUWB is great but seems like a pretty niche school. I didn't like the fact that so much attendance was required. I think they go to school 8 - 5 everyday. Wasn't a big fan of TBL. The hospital is basically a massive community hospital (I think it's one of the top medicare billers in the country?) and you wouldn't get the gritty experience you would have at WSU.

I'm OOS but have family in Detroit. I interviewed at both schools. If I had to choose between these two, I would pick OUWB just due to the absurd OOS pricetag at WSU. If I was IS, I would pick WSU.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[twayz]

Yes I did interview at both schools. Thanks for your input! I really like that OU is affiliated with Beaumont and the class size is smaller. Also, they are not pushing primary care, which I am not too interested in.

 

[serosanguinous]

Yes I did interview at both schools. Thanks for your input! I really like that OU is affiliated with Beaumont and the class size is smaller. Also, they are not pushing primary care, which I am not too interested in.

yeah, the class size is either a positive or a negative. in regards to the hospitals, do you think you would be happier at a suburban, community-type hospital (albeit, a massive one) or in an urban, safety-net type setting?

 

[twayz]

I visited both hospitals and I think i'd like to be at beaumont more than the DMC. But, i'm just concerned that because OU does not have a reputation yet, it will be difficult to get residencies outside of Beaumont Even though Beaumont is good, I would like other options. I know Wayne has relationships with many programs, but OU may not. I'm not sure how program directors would look OUWB students compared to Wayne.

 

[desiprincess787]

hiya twayz,

just to give you a little insight. I spoke to an Emergency Medicine Residency Director about a week ago. During our conversation, I asked her if i were to get into OUWB and another school if there would be any instance in which OUWB may be a better choice (I brought up that Beaumont is an awesome and established teaching hospital). Her response was very firm and she said that because OUWB does not have an established reputation that it's not a good idea. Another interesting thing to note, she said that while TBL is nice, the practice of medicine is less learning in a team and more personal critical thinking. This is not to take away anything from OUWB--it's a great school and I think it will have an amazing reputation in the future. If that's the only place you get in, you should definitely go, but if you have a choice of another school, it's best to go somewhere with graduates that have set a standard.

Hope this helps!

 

[Chemdude]

A lot of my friends at WSUSOM constantly complain about how poorly administered everything is there. In fact, there is a verb that is widly used to describe disdain with Wayne State: getting "wayned". Although OUWB is a new school, I think it has a lot of potential. I would choose OUWB...

 

[doctorshateher]

I'm just going to continue watching this thread for my own personal gain....

That being said, obvious things to consider. Which would you prefer:
1. High vs. Low cost (assuming you are IS for Michigan and don't have financial aid at OUWB)
2. Small vs. Large Class size
3. Urban vs. Suburban Hospital system for M3 and M4
4. Living in an urban environment or commuting vs.living in a suburban environment
5. Established school vs. New school (some risks, but also new possibilities)

Those are the main things that come to mind for me. Anyway, continue discussing....

 

[twayz]

thanks for your input. I do feel that OUWB is more of a "fit" after going down your list. But, I would not want to take any risks with a new school. Also, if program directors think they are taking a risk by admitting students from a new school, then that is enough to make me not want to go to OU. Since WSU accepted me and is more established, I am leaning more towards it.

 

[thisismyusernam]

Wayne FTW.

Number one reason: you're taking a risk by going to a new school in my opinion. With residency positions becoming more and more competitive, where you go to school is starting to matter a bit more. Residency program directors may be weary taking someone from a school that they have never worked with before. I suspect alot of OUWB students will do their residencies at Beaumont. Wayne usually has a pretty solid match list with typically 1/2 to 1/3 of students doing residency outside of MI.

Number two: Don't get too hung up about curricular details like TBL and all that other stuff. How the first two years are set up really does not matter in the long run. Yes, Wayne's curriculum is pretty traditional, but it gets the job done. In terms of grading, I believe both schools are h/p/f. Also, people may complain that Wayne is "too big" but having alot of students simply means that there are always a ton of seminars, clubs, student run clinics, and other cool stuff going on. Also, during first year you meet in groups of 10 with a physician nearly every week for the clinical medicine longitudinal course which makes things feel smaller. Also, don't forget that Wayne streams all of it's lectures. Like waking up at 10:00 AM everyday? Well you can do that at Wayne if you want.

Number three: don't get me wrong, Beaumont is a nice hospital. But so are the DMC and Henry Ford (where the majority of Wayne students rotate). The DMC is absolutely massive and includes a children's hospital, a comprehensive cancer center, VA across the street, and they are gearing up to build a new cardiovascular center. In fact the DMC's Harper Hospital was ranked higher than Beaumont -Royal Oak by US news/world report if you're into that kind of stuff. Rotating at hospitals in the heart of Detroit means you are going to see alot of stuff you probably won't see in a community setting. Wayne is also afiliated with a bunch of other hospitals including Oakwood, St. Johns, etc. So you can get experience in a community hospital if that's what you want. Also, an interesting article about some Beaumont doctors leaving to join DMC http://www.theheart.org/article/1274763.do

Number four: if you're interested in doing research, Wayne has alot of opportunities. I would guess more-so than Oakland judging by the amount of research dollars that flow into each university.

Number five: Wayne is cheaper if you are in-state.

I'm sure OUWB is a fine program and Beaumont is certainly a good hospital. I obviously know more about Wayne than OUWB so like everything take my post with a grain of salt. The above are just my reasons for why I would be more inclined to choose Wayne.

Good luck!

 

[desiprincess787]

Just one more thing to add. When I spoke with that residency director, she told me that for the classes of 2014 and 2015 there will be a projected 5000 U.S. MD graduates that will be WITHOUT a residency. Thus you want to give yourself as competitive of an edge as you can to ensure your future is solid.

 

[thestrokes14]

I think it is just as likely that a student from OUWB gets a residency of choice, compared with a student from Wayne State. In the end, choose the place that you think will help you succeed as a student. The benefit of OUWB is that more resources will go into each student. I wouldn't say that this choice is an easy choice, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[desiprincess787]

While I agree with thestrokes14 on choosing place that fits you best, I would be wary to choose OUWB over another school. I would also go ahead and contact some residency directors and see what they think. I'm going off of what a residency director told me and she was very blunt with me in choosing OUWB over any other school. Obtaining a residency is getting more and more competitive, and reputation of the medical school you attend will matter more by the time we get around to applying.

 

[Studly]

OUWB all the way. I hear what people say about the residency directors, but I believe that some residency directors in the metropolitan and Detroit areas are somewhat sick of having to pick students from Wayne because that's all it's been for the past generations. I think most will be willing to try something new with the OUWB students and that comes from a few that I have spoken with, although there are some that have long lasting allegiances with WSUSOM and will automatically choose WSUSOM students, that I know for sure. But realistically, most people would choose the residency at Beaumont over the Detroit hospitals unless inner-city work is your thing. And there are some specialties that other hospitals do better than Beaumont, i.e. Henry Ford for neurology, but that will probably go to U of M students anyways.

Moving along, I think living in the Rochester and Royal Oak areas has a lot more to offer than Detroit. I believe that OUWB beats Wayne as far as facilities, especially since you are on the undergraduate campus and have all of the amenities right there, i.e. recreation center, student center etc. It would be nice to not have to deal with undergraduate students, but the lack of amenities outweighs the plus that it is having a separate campus/building. And Beaumont's facilities truly are state of the art, it's insane how much time you will be spending at the hospitals during 3rd and 4th year and I think Beaumont hands down is the nicest medical facility in the metropolitan Detroit area barring Henry Ford West Bloomfield, but HFWB isn't a place that will give you diverse and groundbreaking medical exposure.

We can probably go on arguing this topic for days and at the end it comes down to how you felt at your interview day. I personally felt that the OUWB staff sincerely were interested in me as an applicant and I enjoy that family feeling. I know there are people who would choose Wayne over OUWB in a heartbeat and I respect that. I know for myself, OUWB is a place that I find easy to flourish and be successful at and I would much rather be a part of a close knit community than a huge doctor factory.

The decision is an important one and you really need to focus on your interests and where you see yourself in the future. I don't think OUWB is the place to go to if you see yourself in academic medicine or as a researcher. But again, my opinion is straight opinion and in the end you should follow your heart because you are more likely to be successful when you are happy and that is what it is important at the end; that you are a successful medical student and that you become a competent physician!

 

[SisterDisco08]

everyone I know at wayne is miserable.

 

[astr1x]

everyone I know at wayne is miserable.

Why? Do you go there?

 

[beakerdan]

everyone I know at wayne is miserable.

This just isn't true. I'm a WSUSOM M1, and that isn't true at all.
I'm not going to reiterate what's been said above, but one other thing, is that if you go to Wayne, you don't have to live in downtown Detroit. I live in a nice suburb in Royal Oak, and it's a 15 minute drive to campus, which is not bad at all.

 

[thisismyusernam]

everyone I know at wayne is miserable.

Your comment adds nothing constructive to the discussion. You imply that Wayne is a miserable place to be which it is not.

There are going to be miserable people at every med school because guess what? Med school is a challenging experience for many people. I'm sure there are miserable people at OUWB, not because OUWB is a bad school, but because med school is inherently difficult in a number of different ways. Maybe you too will be miserable at whatever school you end up at. I hope not, but it's certainly possible because med school is a trying experience no matter where you go.

 

[desiprincess787]

Hiya,

Just wanted to clue in that the residency director I spoke to is a Residency Director at Wayne State...so I'm not really sure if they will give OUWB kids a chance because they're "new." Also, wayne state, as im sure all of you can surmise, is usually a less desirable place for someone to want to do residency because of the location. That being said, if someone from there would choose OUWB student as a last pick, I can only project what more competitive places will do.

I don't want to say anything bad about OUWB. It's a great school, great people, and it's going to be amazing, but at the end of the day the "going to be" is what would scare me. I've spoken to students presently at the school; they enjoy it but they also have mentioned its been tough because the curriculum is still in development. OUWB faculty are really good about changing teaching to the student's style, but only after they've experienced it once and don't like what they encounter. I think it'll take a few years for them to iron out the details to perfection.

Lastly, not everyone hates Wayne State! I know plenty of people there that are happy there. Plus, the benefit is that you get a huge diversity of clinical exposure.

Good luck!

 

[Dartmouth2005]

Hey everyone,

I am very fortunate to have gotten accepted to both OUWB and Wayne. However, I am having a dilemma choosing which school I would like to go to. It would be really helpful to get some of you opinions on these schools.

I really appreciate your help!
Thanks.

Wayne.

 

[Bhagwan1]

Hey Guys,

I'm currently an M1 at OUWB and I just wanted to reply to some of your statements and thoughts on the school. I can't address everything in 1 post (or talk about everything good and bad at OUWB), but I'll try to address the major concerns.

In response to "serosanguinous"'s statement about attendance
1. Attendance is optional! There are certain mandatory sessions that we must attend such as Anatomy lab, TBL sessions (which are graded), a Medical Ethics course, and a couple other classes. BUT, almost every other session is recorded, available online, and posted immediately (I'm told there is a way to stream while the class is going on, but I haven't tried this). I almost never attend class unless it's mandatory. Some days I don't even go to school. (And yes, I'm passing).

In response to "thisismyusernam"'s statement about research opportunities
2. There are numerous research opportunities. Obviously there are only 50 of us now, so I'm not sure what the field will look like in 6 years when there are 500 kids in the school (125 per class), but we have more than enough research opportunities, and I'm not even talking about the opportunities available on campus at Oakland University (which has a great Eye Research Institute btw). Through residents that we are close to at Beaumont, research opportunities have been basically thrown at us. I have not taken one up myself (as I am busy during the year already), but I know many OUWB students who are CURRENTLY doing some type of research with a Beaumont physician.
AND, Beaumont has currently setup 6 week Internships for us in the coming summer that will pay $1500. Not an amazing amount, but it's something. And there are only a limited amount of spots for now (probably 20-25 for a class of 50), but I don't think everyone applied and I'm pretty sure most everyone that is applying will end up with an internship. AND, we were also told that if we don't like anything they setup for us, if we find a project to do that is scholarly (you can't just shadow somebody and do nothing), then they will provide us with that $1500 for doing that.

In response to "desiprincess787" about her comment on the kinks in the curriculum
3. Yes, there are kinks in our curriculum, but they are already ironed out for the most part. A lot of adjustments are made based on our feedback in time for US (the first class) to take notice of them. The bumps in the road are usually from course to course, but for the most part they have already been ironed out for us. And I can say with fair confidence that the second class coming in the fall will not notice much of the bumps at all.

In response to all the doubts about applying and getting into residency.
4. It doesn't matter where you go to school (I mean in the U.S.). If you have a good board score and good letters of rec from your rotations, then you'll get to where you want to go. It's all based on an individual basis.

I love it at this school; I wouldn't switch for any other school. We have already had a lot of clinical experience in our M1 year from multiple interviews with standardized patients to giving flu shots and participating in health drives. You can say there is no point in learning how to interview patients in M1 when you can just do it in M2 before you start rotations in M3, but with these we learn various Physical Examinations that correlate with what we're learning in class and not only does it reinforce the information learned, but it helps us know WHY we're learning certain things and what they mean (e.g. learning the various Cranial Nerves in class and being able to apply that to a Neurological Exam in a clinical setting). I'm so comfortable with interviewing patients (I've already done about 5-6 real patient interviews), that it'll be a breeze when it comes to M3.

 

[desiprincess787]

How is that biased? A residency director is a residency director and they're going to choose students that will make their program look better.

 

[Chimpolla]

I believe that some residency directors in the metropolitan and Detroit areas are somewhat sick of having to pick students from Wayne because that's all it's been for the past generations.

What kind of B.S. is this? I've never heard this.

 

[Studly]

What kind of B.S. is this? I've never heard this.

This was a sentiment from a single residency director at a local hospital not affiliated with WSU.

Other residency directors I have spoken with are more than willing to give OUWB students "a shot" to prove themselves, some of these directors seemed very interested in seeing what the schools graduates will have to offer.

It's pretty funny because at the OUWB second-look day the dean addressed this situation.

I agree with gujuDoc.

 

[Studly]

I think what a lot of you all fail to realize is residency programs take people from all over the country and IMGs in the case of most detroit hospitals.

To say that they are sick of our students at my school WSU or that they prefer only our students to OUWB are BOTH RIDICULOUS statemetns!!

I caps for emphasis not yelling.

That said, you are what you make of your medical education whether its at OUWB or WSU. We have our problems here at Wayne but we also have our strengths with our strong clinical ties and several free clinics to learn from. We match people into every field. We have interest groups that let you get exposure to every field early on. At match time we have our matched students come and take time to talk to us on what they did through meet the matched dinner events. This was not true at some schools in Florida where students didn't even know what all was out there. I'm impressed by that. But we do have our problems too like any other school which I'd rather not post on my thoughts on that on a student forum.

Both schools have good hospitals affiliated with them Beaumont was ours before they went to OUWB and students preferred to do rotations at that hospital in many cases because its reputable. So is HFH, DMC, and St. Johns. Providence and Oakwood are more slow hospitals.

Both are different in their approaches but the end product is the same, you will be an MD. Go with your own gut.

If you pass your step 1 with good scores, you get great clinical evaluations, you have AOA, you have honors in your classes it doesn't matter if you went to OU or WSU. You will get in a good residency of your choice and still be preferred to an island graduate or IMG. In an area like Detroit where IMGs fill a huge part of the residency slots here I would imagine that they would prefer a US graduate over an IMG even if that IMG is good because US graduates should get preference to seats over IMGs. Good luck.

Those are slower hospitals, but they offer residencies in competitive specialties such as orthopaedic surgery and ophthalmology, just saying. Either way, I doubt school reputation will have a huge impact on a local residency versus maybe applying to a University of Michigan or Johns Hopkins etc. Wayne has a matchlist with the top end matching at some very competitive residencies; it is frivolous to attempt speculation at what OUWB's matchlist will look like, but I wouldn't be surprised if Beaumont showed preference to OUWB students to save face if necessary.

 

[Studly]

I agree with you whole heartedly, and while Wayne offers a more diverse array of hospitals, it is of my knowledge that you are stuck with one for rotations (barring away rotations and electives), however OUWB believes Beaumont RO is the best option for all rotations and they use Troy for family med. Clearly Wayne is ranked higher and has "more" research opportunities, but I believe the decision should come down to fit as far as curriculum, location, and other variables more so than the residency paranoia. And with that in mind, both schools have pros and cons and I personally need to figure what is more important to me in order to make that decision. Ugh.

 

[Studly]

I'm IS for Wayne and OUWB and yes there are a couple schools that could trump my desire to stay in state.

 

[twayz]

Thank you all for your input on this thread. I am pretty sure that I will be making my decision to go to OUWB. I believe the school is a fit for me. It has a lot of potential, and I am confident that it will become outstanding. My decision was based on several factors. After talking to people, reading posts, researching, visiting both schools, here are my thoughts.

1. It is nice to become part of the pioneering class to help shape the school. This will help you build strong relationships with the faculty and even the staff at Beaumont. I feel like this would be a tremendous learning experience for OUWB students, something that not every med student gets to experience.
2. They have a strong relationship with beaumont, a stable and outstanding hospital. I find that this relationship is different from the relationship Wayne has with hospitals. I know Wayne had some issues with 'contract' disputes with the DMC. I do not suspect any issues like this will happen to OUWB because "Beaumont" is part of the medical school's name. Even the LCME found their relationship with Beaumont to be extremely strong
3. I find Wayne a bit outdated. From their application process to their interviews, I just did not see anything that blew me away. OUWB is more cutting edge in my opinion. Even when I tried to apply for financial aid at wayne, it said they don't participate in the "online" service. It just seems that Wayne is not evolving that much.
4. I don't think my future residency will be affected because residency is mostly based on board scores and LORs. OUWB's exam questions all come from previous USMLE questions directly from NBME. In addition, they are incorporating a Kaplan course for the entire class for the second year (and paying for it) to help us prepare for the USMLE.
5. Their approach to teaching (integrative curriculum and TBL) seems like is going along with the trend among medical school that are switching to such a curriculum. I feel that team learning is extremely important. There are so many different specialities that no one doctor can do as much as a team. The medical field is very different than before. Take a look at this video: http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/13/opinion/gawande-doctors/index.html
6. The location is much nicer than Detroit IMO.
7. Although Beaumont Royal Oak is a community hospital, it is a very large hospital. They see more patients than any hospital in Michigan for a given year. Their emergency room also sees more patients than any single hospital in Michigan.
8. Although I know DMC will train me very well, I have no doubt that Beaumont will do the same because they have a high patient volume for us to experience.
9. Beaumont is ranked nationally in several specialities. However, Harper is ranked a bit higher than Beaumont, but they do not have the type of relationship with Wayne that Oakland has with Beaumont.
10. As for research, I am not concerned because Beaumont has a Research Center that is fully accredited. Although there is much more research in Detroit, Beaumont physicians and researchers do publish in top journals.
11. There will be a new medical student lounge within Beaumont Royal Oak just for OUWB students (separate from residents).In addition, Oakland is building a new anatomy lab and a new student lounge. All these will be brand new.
12. At OUWB, I feel like the experience would be superior because you actually get to go to the hospital once a week, you are required to attend most of your classes (you can still skip) which will help you stay on top of things and get to know your classmates, the class size is small helping with individualizing attention, and you will be in a very nice area.
13. Although this is not as important but worth to note. OUWB's inaugural class had some impressive stats. Their mean MCAT (32) was 1 point higher than Wayne's.
14. OUWB staff will listen to you. They also are very quick to getting back to you. I feel that they care a lot about their students and school. I just did not get the same vibe at Wayne.
15. I don't think that just because Wayne is established, it will affect your choice of residency. The LCME does not just accredit any school. All US medical schools are good. They all go through the same rigorous accreditation process. Even established schools can go on probation. They can also lose contracts with hospitals as we have seen with Wayne. It does not guarantee anything. USMLE scores are far more important. Moreover, I feel that because OUWB students will be at Beaumont so often at their first year, they will establish relationships with many of the physicians (and program directors). This may help them when applying for residency. It seems that many Wayne graduates are looking to do their residency at Beaumont.

Wayne still is an excellent school, but I feel like OUWB is a better fit for me. I am by no means trying to make Wayne look bad, but am rather summing up my experience from talking to people and researching. I just do not see any reason to go to Wayne over OUWB.

 

[membername3]

I'm pretty sure just as many Wayne students rotate at Henry Ford as they do DMC, but Henry Ford seems to get left out of the equation since their partnership with Wayne is relatively new. Both places are excellent.

Just had to throw that in.

Anyway, good luck Twayz. Sounds like you'll be happy at OUWB.