RANT HERE thread

[genny]

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I've just seen a lot that can come from understanding their behavior, banking genetics, etc. For endangered species, that might be key to their survival.

For orangutans, I agree it's absolutely vital, since they're going to be extinct in the wild shortly due to palm oil deforestation. We'll see them in Hollywood, and in zoos.

I don't want to come across as someone who's anti-zoo though. I value the work that they do. There are just some species that I think we humans will eventually realize should not be kept in tiny spaces, much the way we realized that biomedical research on chimps is probably not such a great idea anymore.

 

[genny]

Globophobia! (resisting the urge to post horrible float-y gifs) 😛

It's the popping that gets me. This gif makes me cringe.

 

[DVMDream]

 

[Trilt]

It's the popping that gets me. This gif makes me cringe.

 

[DVMDream]

Friend just stated on facebook that zoos should "just be rehabilitation places and have breeding programs".

I don't mind the ignorance of not understanding why a tranquilizer couldn't work, the general public will not understand that. I get it. We can explain that to the best of our ability and then move on. But when people blatantly don't understand and can't comprehend what zoos do, that is just ignorance. To add on that she comments that we are all responsible for what we are doing to wildlife, but continues to blame the zoo for the death of the animal.. I guarantee that zoo has done way more than you ever have when it comes to taking care of wildlife.

 

[genny]

So mean! 😛

Now I have to stay out of this thread. I'm going to have nightmares tonight.

 

[Trilt]

So mean! 😛

Now I have to stay out of this thread. I'm going to have nightmares tonight.

But kittens! 😀

 

[pp9]

It's human nature to want to place blame. It's just like playing hot potato with something that's just an all around tragedy. Kids do crazy things, and sometimes in the wrong place. Things are unpreventable and this was something like the perfect storm of freak events. I hope the family is getting peace right now. I heard the boy is seriously injured.

I believe he was actually released the next day. The mother posted a status on her Facebook (before she deleted her FB) about how he only had a concussion and some scrapes/bruises. I'm sure the entire family is fearing for their lives right now, though.

All in all, this will blow over by the end of the week just like Cecil the lion, the Pittsburgh mauling, and any other hot issue in the media.

 

[Devastating]

Ha, well now I feel like an idiot. In my defense though, I don't think I've ever heard bombed used in that way.... And the lab I use to work at had an attempted bombing a few years before I started there so I'm just paranoid, and I had just woken up from a nap haha

But it now makes so much more sense why you were so casual about it haha

Don't mind me... 😛

Don't worry, I thought the same thing at first...it took me a few rereads to realize what was meant 😛

 

[alohacat319]

I so wish I had a reasonable IS school to attend. It is insane (and very frustrating) how much costs are adding up without even thinking about tuition cost.

Renting a moving truck, the gas to drive across the country, hotels during the drive, plane tickets for my parents to come to white coat, plane tickets for me to come home for Thanksgiving ($600 and we are still six months away! wtf?!).... Might as well just drop out of school and sell newspapers on a street corner, my bank account would probably look the same.

 

[rockatiel]

I so wish I had a reasonable IS school to attend. It is insane (and very frustrating) how much costs are adding up without even thinking about tuition cost.

Renting a moving truck, the gas to drive across the country, hotels during the drive, plane tickets for my parents to come to white coat, plane tickets for me to come home for Thanksgiving ($600 and we are still six months away! wtf?!).... Might as well just drop out of school and sell newspapers on a street corner, my bank account would probably look the same.

My travel isn't near as extensive as yours but I still get it. I'm dreading the next two weeks getting this all together.

 

[LetItSnow]

Also, side comment....I've never had any kids so maybe this is normal, but I find it interesting that this 4 year old was so adamant about jumping down 12 feet to join a gorilla that he actually did it. I feel that 4 is old enough to start recognizing the basics of 'safe' and 'not safe.' There could be details about this kid that we don't know, but based on witness stories, it just seems really weird to me. Apparently he was fighting his mom because he desperately wanted to get in that exhibit. I guess the mom might face charges for this, and I can't say I disagree with that.

I'm only going to post once, because I don't want to get in a debate, but...

I would strongly suggest you wait until you have kids (and then continue to wait until they are 6-7-8 years old or something), and then revisit the issue of just how much fault you think this mom should face (at least, based on the very limited information that's been broadcast). Until then, you should be gracious and withhold judgment.

Kids are autonomous little critters. They will get away from you in a HEARBEAT, no matter how hard you try. If you overprotect them, the evidence (we are all on board with evidence-based medicine, right?) says you restrict normal development with regard to appropriate risk assessment. Add in two kids, or three, or more ... and one can distract you and another one slips away. It's simple not possible to be 100% perfect in protecting your kids and knowing where they are at all times. It's just not.

Some people say "Leash the kid in a zoo!!!". Ok. So when ELSE should you leash them? Always? Just zoos? Other public forums? What about the whole "restricting normal development" piece - leashing the kid isn't in the kid's long-term best developmental interest. And what are you going to say when some 70-year-old senior citizen trips over the leash and breaks a hip? Whose fault is that? Leashes are a stupid solution.

Is the mom responsible? Sure. It's her kid, the kid caused the gorilla to get killed, so the mom should share responsibility in 'fixing' that situation because she's responsible for it. Just like when I broke a neighbor window as a young kid, my parents' had to foot the bill until I could pay them back. They didn't have any fault, but they absorbed responsibility.

But the zoo is certainly partially responsible, too. After all, they designed an enclosure that a 4-year-old kid could get into. So they share some responsibility as well.

It really upsets me that people are so venomously critical of the zoo staff for shooting the gorilla. I can't imagine the staff's distress at having to do that ... and knowing it's the right call ... and knowing they'll get crucified for making the right call.

It also upsets me that people are so venomously critical of the mom. Kids. Will. Get. Away. You can't stop it 100% of the time without locking them in a room. And I'm pretty sure you'd be judgmental of that, too.

We had neighbors with a severely autistic child. Severe enough that he happily wandered into a fireplace and was burned. One of them quit their job to stay home to manage the child. They hired someone to be in the house to help that parent. They took on a therapy dog who, in addition to providing companionship, was trained to help corral the kid back home if he wandered. They had special locks on the doors. These are determined, dedicated, devout parents.

And that kid still managed to wander away and I'd find him in our yard occasionally.

Find me a parent with a kid older than 8 who has NEVER lost track of that kid, and I'll find you a liar.

 

[rockatiel]

I always try to stay away from criticising parents, simply because I've never been one (and most likely will never be). Though it's tangential, I always get so sad when I see people online jumping on the mom or dad that leaves their kid in the car every summer. I guess other parents will have their own opinions on that. I'll never fault one for it simply because I'm not in their brain and wasn't present in whatever moment the child was forgotten about.

Parents are humans too and I can never understand why they face all the backlash when something unexpectedly bad happens to a child.

 

[Trilt]

Don't think it helps anyone to cast blame. Could the enclosure have been more secure? Sure. But it had been around for almost 40 years with no incidents, so obviously kids weren't being lured in willy nilly. Could the mom have been watching her kid more? Absolutely. But nobody is super human, and **** happens. It's beyond tragic that it led to Harambe's death, but I think the uproar towards both the zoo and the mother (from different populations) is not in any way productive. He's dead. The value is in learning from the incident and taking steps so that it doesn't happen again, whether from the parent side or the zoo side.

I always try to stay away from criticising parents, simply because I've never been one (and most likely will never be). Though it's tangential, I always get so sad when I see people online jumping on the mom or dad that leaves their kid in the car every summer. I guess other parents will have their own opinions on that. I'll never fault one for it simply because I'm not in their brain and wasn't present in whatever moment the child was forgotten about.

Parents are humans too and I can never understand why they face all the backlash when something unexpectedly bad happens to a child.

There is a fairly long but engrossing (and award winning) article from the Washington Post on the car subject called "Fatal Distraction" - very, very much worth a read. Absolutely heartrending.

 

[DVMDream]

I'm only going to post once, because I don't want to get in a debate, but...

I would strongly suggest you wait until you have kids (and then continue to wait until they are 6-7-8 years old or something), and then revisit the issue of just how much fault you think this mom should face (at least, based on the very limited information that's been broadcast). Until then, you should be gracious and withhold judgment.

Kids are autonomous little critters. They will get away from you in a HEARBEAT, no matter how hard you try. If you overprotect them, the evidence (we are all on board with evidence-based medicine, right?) says you restrict normal development with regard to appropriate risk assessment. Add in two kids, or three, or more ... and one can distract you and another one slips away. It's simple not possible to be 100% perfect in protecting your kids and knowing where they are at all times. It's just not.

Some people say "Leash the kid in a zoo!!!". Ok. So when ELSE should you leash them? Always? Just zoos? Other public forums? What about the whole "restricting normal development" piece - leashing the kid isn't in the kid's long-term best developmental interest. And what are you going to say when some 70-year-old senior citizen trips over the leash and breaks a hip? Whose fault is that? Leashes are a stupid solution.

Is the mom responsible? Sure. It's her kid, the kid caused the gorilla to get killed, so the mom should share responsibility in 'fixing' that situation because she's responsible for it. Just like when I broke a neighbor window as a young kid, my parents' had to foot the bill until I could pay them back. They didn't have any fault, but they absorbed responsibility.

But the zoo is certainly partially responsible, too. After all, they designed an enclosure that a 4-year-old kid could get into. So they share some responsibility as well.

It really upsets me that people are so venomously critical of the zoo staff for shooting the gorilla. I can't imagine the staff's distress at having to do that ... and knowing it's the right call ... and knowing they'll get crucified for making the right call.

It also upsets me that people are so venomously critical of the mom. Kids. Will. Get. Away. You can't stop it 100% of the time without locking them in a room. And I'm pretty sure you'd be judgmental of that, too.

We had neighbors with a severely autistic child. Severe enough that he happily wandered into a fireplace and was burned. One of them quit their job to stay home to manage the child. They hired someone to be in the house to help that parent. They took on a therapy dog who, in addition to providing companionship, was trained to help corral the kid back home if he wandered. They had special locks on the doors. These are determined, dedicated, devout parents.

And that kid still managed to wander away and I'd find him in our yard occasionally.

Find me a parent with a kid older than 8 who has NEVER lost track of that kid, and I'll find you a liar.

There is a lot of additional information being posted all over the place. Multiple witnesses are saying that they heard the boy repeatedly telling his parents that he was going to go swimming with the gorillas. There is information that this woman has had her children removed from her by CPS on previous occasions. Reports that she was on the phone and not paying any attention to any of her children when the incident took place. Reports that she was actually taking pictures. Reports that it took her well over 10 minutes to realize her child wasn't by her side. Etc, etc, etc.... who knows what the truth is or is not. Not sure any of it really matters in the end, to be honest. Though I would hope if a parent had a child who was adamant about going to "swim with the gorillas" they would pull the child away from that area and not return to it.

What we do know is that the child had to climb over a fence, through some wires, through 4 feet of thick bushes and then he would have access to the exhibit in which he would have had to jump/fall 15 feet into that moat. I don't know, but that seems like a lot of barriers to me. But I am not a zoo design/exhibit expert. We do know that the exhibit has been there since 1978 without incident until this one. What about if this were a New York Subway system that has NO railings/fences preventing a kid from jumping onto the train tracks. Who is responsible for if a kid falls onto the tracks and an oncoming train hits him? Who should be responsible for a kid climbing over multiple barriers and crawling into a gorilla exhibit? Or do we just consider these as accidents? Does anyone have the responsibility to make sure these incidents don't happen to children? And if so who? At what point does a parent's responsibility begin and a zoo or any places of business responsibility end? Is it at one barrier? Two? Three? Ten? Is Disneyland responsible when some kid falls off the railing in line and hits their head? Despite them repeatedly coming over the intercom and telling parents to get their kids off the railings and having signs posted stating the same... At what point do we stop and say... "Ok. That child had to do a LOT to get to where he was and where were his parents?" It may just be that they were distracted. It happens, I don't blame parents for getting distracted. However, the child is still your responsibility and at some point we have to stop relying on everything being 100% childproof. A determined young child will be able to find their way into an exhibit even with the best of enclosure. Every zoo enclosure is accessible to the public in some way if a child or person is determined enough to get in. What about people that stand up on roller coasters and end up killed? Is that the theme park's fault? Or is that a "well, no ****, there are multiple signs stating not to stand and it is common sense to remain seated"? I feel like there has to be some (likely faint) line drawn where a bit of common sense and self responsibility comes into play and places of business or zoos or theme parks aren't held responsible for behavior that goes above and beyond the safety measures that are in place.

Just some thoughts to be had.

I don't blame the zoo for shooting the gorilla. I 100% believe that they made the correct call. I am also very happy to hear the child is ok. In the end, it isn't his fault.

Hopefully a lot of lessons are learned from this from both sides of the equation. For both the parents and zoo officials. And this is what really matters. An accident occurred, crappy things had to happen in order to save that little boy. Hopefully from this accident there will be a lot of learning in order to improve things.

 

[flameshock]

I broke my toe.

Ended up helping my parents renovate their cottage over the holiday weekend and my dad dropped a table on me while I was working on the other end. Five hours at the emergency room later (no where else open over the holiday) and I have a boot, painkillers, and orders not to move much for the next few weeks.

But I am super bummed because this means that I am not going to be able to participate in the 5k mud run I signed up for in June. Not only was it my first 5k (which I was super excited for) but my friend committed to flying out from Texas to do the run with me. It's really disappointing.

Furthermore, I'm really scared about falling off the exercise bandwagon. I've been working out consistently since January...and this is the longest period I've ever been able to consistently maintain a regimen. It's helped with weight loss and my stress levels quite a bit...but I fear now that I'm off the wagon, I not be able to get back on. 🙁

 

[deleted676737]

Woke up this morning to this post on my FB news feed...

"Charlie-simon showed up this morning with his belly ripped opened. Seen a stray dog last night to. Please pray charlie-simon is going top make it. He may be a cat to some but to me he is my baby"

There were sixteen comments on this post, none of which encouraged the OP to consult a veterinarian. OP also expressed her distrust of veterinarians overall and said that she was just going to keep him in a basket, pray, and see what happens.

But if your cat was truly "your baby", you'd get him medical help when something as serious as "his belly ripped opened" happens!

I don't understand. Poor kitty. 🙁

 

[pp9]

I'm only going to post once, because I don't want to get in a debate, but...

I would strongly suggest you wait until you have kids (and then continue to wait until they are 6-7-8 years old or something), and then revisit the issue of just how much fault you think this mom should face (at least, based on the very limited information that's been broadcast). Until then, you should be gracious and withhold judgment.

Kids are autonomous little critters. They will get away from you in a HEARBEAT, no matter how hard you try. If you overprotect them, the evidence (we are all on board with evidence-based medicine, right?) says you restrict normal development with regard to appropriate risk assessment. Add in two kids, or three, or more ... and one can distract you and another one slips away. It's simple not possible to be 100% perfect in protecting your kids and knowing where they are at all times. It's just not.

Some people say "Leash the kid in a zoo!!!". Ok. So when ELSE should you leash them? Always? Just zoos? Other public forums? What about the whole "restricting normal development" piece - leashing the kid isn't in the kid's long-term best developmental interest. And what are you going to say when some 70-year-old senior citizen trips over the leash and breaks a hip? Whose fault is that? Leashes are a stupid solution.

Is the mom responsible? Sure. It's her kid, the kid caused the gorilla to get killed, so the mom should share responsibility in 'fixing' that situation because she's responsible for it. Just like when I broke a neighbor window as a young kid, my parents' had to foot the bill until I could pay them back. They didn't have any fault, but they absorbed responsibility.

But the zoo is certainly partially responsible, too. After all, they designed an enclosure that a 4-year-old kid could get into. So they share some responsibility as well.

It really upsets me that people are so venomously critical of the zoo staff for shooting the gorilla. I can't imagine the staff's distress at having to do that ... and knowing it's the right call ... and knowing they'll get crucified for making the right call.

It also upsets me that people are so venomously critical of the mom. Kids. Will. Get. Away. You can't stop it 100% of the time without locking them in a room. And I'm pretty sure you'd be judgmental of that, too.

We had neighbors with a severely autistic child. Severe enough that he happily wandered into a fireplace and was burned. One of them quit their job to stay home to manage the child. They hired someone to be in the house to help that parent. They took on a therapy dog who, in addition to providing companionship, was trained to help corral the kid back home if he wandered. They had special locks on the doors. These are determined, dedicated, devout parents.

And that kid still managed to wander away and I'd find him in our yard occasionally.

Find me a parent with a kid older than 8 who has NEVER lost track of that kid, and I'll find you a liar.

Oh, I do agree. I'm not saying it's 100% her fault, but she is solely responsible for her child. There's no excusing that. Having nannied kids around that age full time, I get it. They're gone in the blink of an eye. I just find it interesting that this kid was so fixated on jumping into a gorilla exhibit and made that very clear. Reports were that he actually caused a big stink about it, and the mom turned away from him and then he ran. I read one article where she didn't notice he was gone until people started screaming and she said "Does the kid have green shorts?" Whether or not it's true, we don't know of course. She would have been responsible for anything he did that day at the zoo, even if it was throwing a toy at the gorilla. It's up to you to protect and maintain the behavior of your kid to the best of your ability.

Another unpopular opinion, but I agree with you that the zoo shares responsibility. I know that toddlers are quick little climbers, but if he really was able to get into that enclosure within seconds, improvements need to be made. Like I said in my earlier post, this wouldn't be the only zoo where this could happen very easily, so it's not like this zoo has shoddy exhibits.

 

[orca2011]

My checks for my license just went through...my bank account looks super sad now. =( Really can't wait to be up there so I can get reimbursed.

 

[Pugsforlove2014]

I'm just to point this out, because it seems a bit strange to me, and keep in mind this is only personal experience. Where I was born (Europe) child leashes aren't as uncommon as they are in America. My mother used it on me when we were in places where if I got lost/ ran off I could hurt myself. We're talking beaches, malls, zoos, forests etc. Now this was only until I was 4 or so, I can't remember a bit of it, but there are pictures. A lot of my family did they same stuff, I know sociologists and many other professionals are against it but it's interesting that different area's might have different viewpoints on it. Hopefully I didn't suffer any psychological damage from it. Now I don't have an opinion on it either way, but I would be willing to use it in some situations, definitely.

 

[LetItSnow]

There were sixteen comments on this post, none of which encouraged the OP to consult a veterinarian. OP also expressed her distrust of veterinarians overall and said that she was just going to keep him in a basket, pray, and see what happens.

But if your cat was truly "your baby", you'd get him medical help when something as serious as "his belly ripped opened" happens!

I don't understand. Poor kitty. 🙁

Oh, it is easy to understand.

Vets want $$ for service. Therefore we don't care about our patients. Therefore you can't trust us.

I mean, I'm only a year out but I already am placing a down payment on my third house and the jet to commute between them. I have had to cut back to working only a couple days a month because it was just more money than I knew what to do with.

 

[killerleaf]

when my two boys were small, when we went in public, I had leashes for them. they are close in age, they fought like you wouldn't believe. the leashes were a way to keep them in the same general space I was in, yet separated from each other. I got a lot of dirty looks, and a few people who would actually say something to me. I would just reel the boys in together, looking these people in the eye the whole time, and then watch them as the boys tore into each other. They shut up, and realized that not everybody is a happy little family all the time. (and was making sure that neither one was actually hurting the other one...) by the time the boys were older, (about 5 or so) they would actually behave and stay with me in public, so the leashes went away. they helped me keep track of two active boys, who would not stay in the same vicinity of each other if they could help it.

 

[DVMDream]

because it was just more money than I knew what to do with.

I can definitely find a use for that extra money for you, just mail it to me... 😉

 

[LetItSnow]

I can definitely find a use for that extra money for you, just mail it to me... 😉

No time no time. Too busy jetting around the world spending it. I've got a date with one of my five mistresses in Monaco tonight.




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[DVMDream]

No time no time. Too busy jetting around the world spending it. I've got a date with one of my five mistresses in Monaco tonight.



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I see you've upgraded from the white panel van.

 

[Lupin21]

I see you've upgraded from the white panel van.

 

[missdarjeeling]

It also upsets me that people are so venomously critical of the mom. Kids. Will. Get. Away. You can't stop it 100% of the time without locking them in a room. And I'm pretty sure you'd be judgmental of that, too.

I agree. Maybe she was negligent but maybe she wasn't. People take comfort in thinking that bad things only happen to the children of crappy, neglectful parents, even if when thinking about it, they'd admit that it's not true. Deep down, you want to think that as long as you're not crappy and neglectful, then your kids will be safe. If only it worked that way. I understand the impulse to be judgmental, but many people are viciously angry. Like this lady is worse than a child molester or something.

The kids-in-a-hot-car phenomenon and that old WaPo article are definitely relevant here. A tragedy may be more likely to happen to someone who's not paying attention or doing the right thing, but it can also happen to someone who IS trying to do everything right. One of the doctors I used to work with at my old hospital lost a child this way. Normally, her spouse dropped off the kid at daycare, but she had to do it last minute one day. She went into work and worked a crazy, long shift, and the child died in the car. She was exhausted and on auto-pilot, and holy sh-t, that can happen to just about anyone.

Thank goodness we have social media now to dissect people's parenting under a microscope while simultaneously moaning and groaning about overbearing helicopter parents. Now instead of it just being the in-laws and the nosy neighbor sitting in judgment, the whole world can join in. Apparently, the lady is getting bombarded with abuse online, and another woman on Facebook with the same name is getting garbage thrown at her, too. Just another social media outrage of the day. Think of all of the gorillas people are saving by sending hate mail to that lady.

 

[jmo1012]

I broke my toe.

Ended up helping my parents renovate their cottage over the holiday weekend and my dad dropped a table on me while I was working on the other end. Five hours at the emergency room later (no where else open over the holiday) and I have a boot, painkillers, and orders not to move much for the next few weeks.

But I am super bummed because this means that I am not going to be able to participate in the 5k mud run I signed up for in June. Not only was it my first 5k (which I was super excited for) but my friend committed to flying out from Texas to do the run with me. It's really disappointing.

Furthermore, I'm really scared about falling off the exercise bandwagon. I've been working out consistently since January...and this is the longest period I've ever been able to consistently maintain a regimen. It's helped with weight loss and my stress levels quite a bit...but I fear now that I'm off the wagon, I not be able to get back on. 🙁

Can you swim laps? Even just spending some quality time in water may help keep your metabolism up if you have to work a little to thermoregulate

 

[LetItSnow]

Thank goodness we have social media now to dissect people's parenting under a microscope while simultaneously moaning and groaning about overbearing helicopter parents.

Yeah. That's the 'best' part: you protect your kids too much and you're helicopter parenting. You don't protect them enough and you're negligent. And 90% of the criticism comes from people who don't have kids and think that because they've babysat or nannied a little bit that they have a clue.

It's not a great time in the U.S. to be a parent. You really truly can't win - there is always someone just waiting to tell you why you're doing such a crappy job.

 

[pp9]

Yeah. That's the 'best' part: you protect your kids too much and you're helicopter parenting. You don't protect them enough and you're negligent. And 90% of the criticism comes from people who don't have kids and think that because they've babysat or nannied a little bit that they have a clue.

It's not a great time in the U.S. to be a parent. You really truly can't win - there is always someone just waiting to tell you why you're doing such a crappy job.

🙄

"Billy's kid died because he forgot he was in the car." "Oh well, that **** happens, it can happen to me."
"Officer, I'm exhausted and I had a long day. I ran that red light and ended up killing someone. **** happens."

Like I said before, **** does happen. Doesn't negate your responsibility one bit.

edit:

I agree. Maybe she was negligent but maybe she wasn't. People take comfort in thinking that bad things only happen to the children of crappy, neglectful parents, even if when thinking about it, they'd admit that it's not true. Deep down, you want to think that as long as you're not crappy and neglectful, then your kids will be safe. If only it worked that way. I understand the impulse to be judgmental, but many people are viciously angry. Like this lady is worse than a child molester or something.

The kids-in-a-hot-car phenomenon and that old WaPo article are definitely relevant here. A tragedy may be more likely to happen to someone who's not paying attention or doing the right thing, but it can also happen to someone who IS trying to do everything right. One of the doctors I used to work with at my old hospital lost a child this way. Normally, her spouse dropped off the kid at daycare, but she had to do it last minute one day. She went into work and worked a crazy, long shift, and the child died in the car. She was exhausted and on auto-pilot, and holy sh-t, that can happen to just about anyone.

Thank goodness we have social media now to dissect people's parenting under a microscope while simultaneously moaning and groaning about overbearing helicopter parents. Now instead of it just being the in-laws and the nosy neighbor sitting in judgment, the whole world can join in. Apparently, the lady is getting bombarded with abuse online, and another woman on Facebook with the same name is getting garbage thrown at her, too. Just another social media outrage of the day. Think of all of the gorillas people are saving by sending hate mail to that lady.

People take any media event and freak the heck out, honestly. It's terrifying. It's like blind rage. I also don't understand the 'mourners' who drove hundreds of miles to be at a candlelight vigil for Harambe and gave interviews through tears. Did you really have a personal connection with this gorilla that you probably didn't know existed until last week, or are you overwhelmed by the media circus that's bombarding you with pictures of him?

The dentist that killed Cecil practically went into hiding. Veterinarians are committing suicide as a result of media/social media freak-outs such as this. It seems like it will never stop.

 

[dyachei]

🙄

"Billy's kid died because he forgot he was in the car." "Oh well, that **** happens, it can happen to me."
"Officer, I'm exhausted and I had a long day. I ran that red light and ended up killing someone. **** happens."

Like I said before, **** does happen. Doesn't negate your responsibility one bit.

edit:

People take any media event and freak the heck out, honestly. It's terrifying. It's like blind rage. I also don't understand the 'mourners' who drove hundreds of miles to be at a candlelight vigil for Harambe and gave interviews through tears. Did you really have a personal connection with this gorilla that you probably didn't know existed until last week, or are you overwhelmed by the media circus that's bombarding you with pictures of him?

The dentist that killed Cecil practically went into hiding. Veterinarians are committing suicide as a result of media/social media freak-outs such as this. It seems like it will never stop.

You do realize that accidents are called accidents for a reason, right?

Running a red light is a bit different from forgetting your kid in the car. But nice try. Even with my accident, I kept trying to blame myself and my parents, therapists, doctors, and police told me that even though I was technically "at fault" it was truly just an accident.

 

[pp9]

You do realize that accidents are called accidents for a reason, right?

Running a red light is a bit different from forgetting your kid in the car. But nice try. Even with my accident, I kept trying to blame myself and my parents, therapists, doctors, and police told me that even though I was technically "at fault" it was truly just an accident.

I'll keep that in mind next time I think about the accident that killed my friend. Other driver shouldn't have been behind the wheel if he was as tired as he claimed, but it was just an accident, right? No chance of preventing it, none at all 🙄 No one intends to cause a collision, not even drunk drivers, that is why they are called accidents. Some 'accidents' are directly caused by poor decision making and flat out irresponsible behavior. It doesn't sound you fall into the category of accidents I was making an example of.

Just like the toddler in my area that now has severe full body burns because she was running outside and the family's fire pit was still going. She fell right into it. No one intended for that to happen (accident), but some simple measures could have been taken to prevent it.

 

[dyachei]

I'll keep that in mind next time I think about the accident that killed my friend. Other driver shouldn't have been behind the wheel if he was as tired as he claimed, but it was just an accident, right? No chance of preventing it, none at all 🙄 No one intends to cause a collision, not even drunk drivers, that is why they are called accidents. Some 'accidents' are directly caused by poor decision making and flat out irresponsible behavior. It doesn't sound you fall into the category of accidents I was making an example of.

Just like the toddler in my area that now has severe full body burns because she was running outside and the family's fire pit was still going. She fell right into it. No one intended for that to happen (accident), but some simple measures could have been taken to prevent it.

You're getting a lot defensive here.

Nobody is saying that there isn't prevention. But being a human being means that you make mistakes. Even you. This accident with the kid and the gorilla? Yeah, there might be things they can do to prevent it, but for the most part they had tried to take precautions. So I think it is more analogous to my accident than to the one you used. If 1 out of 4 kids gets away from you for a minute, you just don't expect them to jump into a gorilla habitat. Even if they were talking about wanting to be with the gorillas.

Even if everything were 100% preventable, accidents would happen because this is how we learn to prevent new issues.

 

[WildZoo]

🙄

"Billy's kid died because he forgot he was in the car." "Oh well, that **** happens, it can happen to me."
"Officer, I'm exhausted and I had a long day. I ran that red light and ended up killing someone. **** happens."

Like I said before, **** does happen. Doesn't negate your responsibility one bit.

I really don't think LIS was saying that the mother is absolved of all responsibility because "**** happens". Of course she is still responsible for her child. But a lot of the anger directed at her is out of proportion. She did not, as far as we know, intentionally allow her child to get into the enclosure. I would be surprised if there are any parents out there who have never lost sight of their child in a public place. So yeah, she is partly responsible for the accident. That doesn't make it less of an accident. I don't think anyone goes to a zoo and thinks "If I don't keep my eyes on my child at all times he could end up in a gorilla exhibit." There are a lot of rumors surrounding exactly what happened so it is hard to get an exact grasp on how much was just the typical kid getting out of sight of parent and how much was parent ignoring signs that the kid was about to do something dangerous. But that's typical of these situations, people make assumptions and they judge and then they forget about it a week later, when the full story isn't revealed until months later, if ever.

 

[vetmedhead]

I'll keep that in mind next time I think about the accident that killed my friend. Other driver shouldn't have been behind the wheel if he was as tired as he claimed, but it was just an accident, right? No chance of preventing it, none at all 🙄 No one intends to cause a collision, not even drunk drivers, that is why they are called accidents. Some 'accidents' are directly caused by poor decision making and flat out irresponsible behavior. It doesn't sound you fall into the category of accidents I was making an example of.

Just like the toddler in my area that now has severe full body burns because she was running outside and the family's fire pit was still going. She fell right into it. No one intended for that to happen (accident), but some simple measures could have been taken to prevent it.

This is sort of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You can't just say that some accidents are "accidents" and others are true accidents as if there are some that arbitrarily don't fall into the category of accident.

 

[DVMDream]

I'll keep that in mind next time I think about the accident that killed my friend. Other driver shouldn't have been behind the wheel if he was as tired as he claimed, but it was just an accident, right? No chance of preventing it, none at all 🙄 No one intends to cause a collision, not even drunk drivers, that is why they are called accidents. Some 'accidents' are directly caused by poor decision making and flat out irresponsible behavior. It doesn't sound you fall into the category of accidents I was making an example of.

Just like the toddler in my area that now has severe full body burns because she was running outside and the family's fire pit was still going. She fell right into it. No one intended for that to happen (accident), but some simple measures could have been taken to prevent it.

I dunno, I probably have an unpopular opinion when it comes to certain instances of vehicular manslaughter. Outside of the obvious drunk driving, distracted driving or flat out extremely reckless, some vehicular manslaughter cases are really just horrific accidents. No, I'm not saying a responsible person should be completely absolved. Of course not. I'm saying that I think we sometimes go overboard.

Take this show I was watching recently called 24 to life, IIRC. One story was about a woman who turned a corner sharply and fast and hit a father and son on the sidewalk. The father was severely injured, the little boy killed. That is horrible. The woman has taken full responsibility for her actions. What sucks is that woman is now going to be taken away from her young son for (IIRC) 5 years (it may have been longer). That isn't going to bring back the boy she killed. That isn't going to make his family heal any faster. Overall, the only thing that does is use up tax dollars and ruin another young child's life without his mom. I think she's responsible, yes. Do I think throwing her in jail is the right action, not really. But that might just be my unpopular opinion.

There can be accidents in this world in which people are "responsible" for what lead up to that accident. You don't always have to have pitchforks out going after people.

The thing with the zoo is hard to determine "responsibility". Too many different accounts of what happened to know what really happened. Obviously, parents are responsible for their children's actions, where lines get fuzzy is how much is the zoo responsible, if at all....

Now I've discussed this with my mother. She lost my youngest sister at the zoo. My sister was 4 years old. And I don't mean 3 seconds. I mean a zoo employee found my sister and an intercom system was used to locate my parents. It was a simple we turned to leave, she had been following, then she stopped and continued to stare at the flamingos. I asked her if my sister had slipped off into some animal's exhibit would she feel the zoo is at all responsible. Her answer was no. She felt she was responsible for keeping an eye on her child and she didn't, she lost track. It happens. It doesn't make the parent an evil, horrible, neglecting bad parent. It just means an accident happened. Yes, ultimately she was responsible for that accident. But that doesn't mean the pitchforks need to come out and someone needs to be burned at the stake.

I mostly agree with LIS. I'm just not as convinced the zoo is partially responsible. I may change my mind on that in the future. I may not. Depends on what else comes out about the incident, if anything.

 

[LetItSnow]

I really don't think LIS was saying that the mother is absolved of all responsibility because "**** happens". Of course she is still responsible for her child. But a lot of the anger directed at her is out of proportion. She did not, as far as we know, intentionally allow her child to get into the enclosure. I would be surprised if there are any parents out there who have never lost sight of their child in a public place. So yeah, she is partly responsible for the accident. That doesn't make it less of an accident. I don't think anyone goes to a zoo and thinks "If I don't keep my eyes on my child at all times he could end up in a gorilla exhibit." There are a lot of rumors surrounding exactly what happened so it is hard to get an exact grasp on how much was just the typical kid getting out of sight of parent and how much was parent ignoring signs that the kid was about to do something dangerous. But that's typical of these situations, people make assumptions and they judge and then they forget about it a week later, when the full story isn't revealed until months later, if ever.

Exactly.

The mother does have responsibility (which I very specifically said earlier). So does the zoo (it's their enclosure, their responsibility to separate their animals from their guests - whether out of sense of compassion for the animal or protection for the guest or both doesn't really matter - they own the animal, they are responsible for its fate).

But that doesn't make it necessary or useful or appropriate to judge either of them from afar. And there also is a difference between blame and responsibility. Like I said earlier: the mom and the zoo are responsible. Is anyone really to blame? Probably not. It's an accident.

You (not you, WZ) also should consider what information you actually have. There is a short video clip - sure. But that's really about it. Reports from people about what happened? Humans are notoriously poor objective reporters. Now you take all that subjective/interpreted data - the large majority of which is faulty - and you distill it down by news media who have a vested interest in sensationalizing things for readership/viewership along with very limited space to convey the facts ..... if you think that's good enough data to judge the zoo OR the mother by, you're fooling yourself. It's a real-life game of Telephone.

If you really want to get into the judging game, my only hope is that you are as hard on yourself as you are willing to be on other people. I've lost patients in the hospital - happens all the time because I treat the sickest of the sick. Am I responsible? Yes. For every single one of them. I'm their doctor, they are my responsibility. Am I to blame when they die? No. At least, not yet for any I'm aware of. And even if I am someday, I'd like to think a modicum of grace would be extended.

If you can't extend that grace, you'd better hold yourself to the same standard. I've had three long-time practicing RDVMs transfer me post-op spays in the last year that have died from blood loss before the problem could get corrected (one on the way, one in the parking lot, and one 5 minutes after arriving). I've had one post-op spay die because the long-time practicing RDVM ligated both ureters. All of these RDVMs have transferred me other patients and their work-ups, their phone conversations, and the discussion from the clients leads me to think these are good, high-quality, caring, compassionate RDVMs: who just happened to make little mistakes that led to tragic outcomes. If some vet student here thinks they are better than these RDVMs, they're foolish.

I dunno. I'm just really out of step with the whole Internet rage phenomenon where we sit in our armchairs a thousand miles away and cast judgment on people we don't know using incredible imperfect data that we haven't validated. I also am acutely aware that I am exactly one fraction of a second away from making a tragic mistake every day of my job and becoming the next poor vet to get lambasted by the Veterinary Abuse Network on Facebook (who, btw, are going after Blue Pearl right now ... I work side-by-side with Blue Pearl, and they have some wonderful doctors and staff).

No thanks. I'll withhold judgment. As far as I know, the mom in this case was just another mother at a zoo who lost track of her kid. Happens thousands of times a day all over America. This one time it just happened to turn tragic. Sucks for everyone involved. That's all I need to know.

 

[missdarjeeling]

🙄

"Billy's kid died because he forgot he was in the car." "Oh well, that **** happens, it can happen to me."
"Officer, I'm exhausted and I had a long day. I ran that red light and ended up killing someone. **** happens."

Like I said before, **** does happen. Doesn't negate your responsibility one bit.

For me, it's not a black and white responsible/not responsible. There are degrees of culpability, and to me, that matters more than responsibility. I'm responsible for the condition of my car and for operating it safely, but there's a world of difference in terms of my culpability if I run a red light because the brakes suddenly give out on me with no warning versus if I run a red light because I'm drunk. Even with the former, you could easily argue that, gee, missdarjeeling, why haven't you been taking your car to the mechanic for regular maintenance every couple of months? Why aren't you regularly having your brakes checked? Don't you realize you could kill somebody?

I'm not saying there should never be consequences if we think that someone's only partially culpable or if there are extenuating circumstances that explain their actions. But it makes me uncomfortable when anyone who's remotely culpable in any bad situation gets judged to be a negligent, stupid, worthless POS when maybe they made one mistake that snowballed into a tragedy. And it's the "it could never happen to me because I'm smart and careful" attitude that worries me the most.

 

[LetItSnow]

I'm not saying there should never be consequences if we think that someone's only partially culpable or if there are extenuating circumstances that explain their actions. But it makes me uncomfortable when anyone who's remotely culpable in any bad situation gets judged to be a negligent, stupid, worthless POS when maybe they made one mistake that snowballed into a tragedy. And it's the "it could never happen to me because I'm smart and careful" attitude that worries me the most.

Yes. Well said.

The problem is that after the fact there are always a million things we can find that would have prevented an accident if only someone had just done X, or not done Y, or paid attention to Z. Always always always. It only takes one little right move in a string of wrong moves to break the accident chain.

But people are imperfect, and so occasionally just because of the way statistics and the universe work, we manage to string together a series of usually minor mistakes, and arrive at a horribly tragic outcome.

It's life. Sure, we need to establish responsibility in order to clean up the messes afterwards as best we can. But we don't need to rip each other apart for it. And we REALLY don't need to rip apart people we don't even know from a thousand miles away over an incident we really don't have any particular insider information apart. There just isn't any value in it.

Ok. 'Nuff said. I've made my point. I'll go back to sitting in my cat-shredded la-z-boy wearing my wife beater smoking heaters and drinking old milwaukee while yelling at the kids to get off my lawn.

 

[missdarjeeling]

drinking old milwaukee

Speaking of poor life decisions...

😀

 

[rockatiel]

The stressed out, constantly angry version of my mother that has come out since the job loss in March is just really hard to get along with sometimes, and it's only gotten worse since we all had to move into a tiny house to manage rent. Being away from home, I never realized how bad it got. It's just really hard to talk to anyone in this house. There's so much tension and stress at all times. It's like my bad semester never ended and though I came home to respite, I'm unable to do that. Maybe that's selfish of me to expect. I got a job to help out but that's not working too well either. This environment isn't helping me heal from my burnout and as vet school is weeks away, I'm terrified of starting at this stress level. I keep having dreams about deferral. Maybe I need to look into it for financial reasons. Or, maybe moving 6 hours away will help. I don't know whether I need to remove myself from the situation or find ways to alleviate it. It has to get better soon, but when will it turn around? I care about my parents alot but I just don't know how to help or what to say.

 

[LetItSnow]

Ok. I lied. One final comment, sorry, then I will shut up. Not specifically related to the gorilla/mom thing, but generally related to the way we leap to judge and specific to medicine:

One of the WORST parts about so much judgment when people make mistakes (gasp! imagine! being human!) is that it impedes us from preventing them in the future. So much judgment makes it hard for us to admit mistakes, which prevents us from sharing them with others, which prevents them and us from learning from them.

Great Ted talk that is related, regarding our (medical) culture of expecting perfection. Someone in a FB vet group posted it in regard to a surgical mistake. The speaker, an ER MD, is not specifically talking about our culture of judgment, but it very much plays a role in our unwillingness to have frank discussions about our own mistakes. I watched the video a few years ago but had forgotten about it.



Nobody is saying "hey, a mistake is a mistake, nobody should be held responsible." But all the judgment when mistakes are made plays an adverse role in preventing them in the future.

Now I'll shut up. 🙂

 

[vetmedhead]

Cruelty cases can be so hard to work on sometimes. 🙁 We did a few necropsies today and two dogs had no food whatsoever in their entire GI tracts. Not even feces present. One had resorted to eating mulch and tree bark. I hate starvation cases. 🙁

 

[psilovethomas]

Sickness status: conjunctivitis, corneal abrasion, ear infection, URI, laryngitis with no voice. Trying to explain Legg-Calve-Perthes diagnosis to owner with minimal vocal abilities was difficult.

 

[jmo1012]

I dunno. I'm just really out of step with the whole Internet rage phenomenon where we sit in our armchairs a thousand miles away and cast judgment on people we don't know using incredible imperfect data that we haven't validated. I also am acutely aware that I am exactly one fraction of a second away from making a tragic mistake every day of my job and becoming the next poor vet to get lambasted by the Veterinary Abuse Network on Facebook (who, btw, are going after Blue Pearl right now ... I work side-by-side with Blue Pearl, and they have some wonderful doctors and staff).

Thanks for these links 😉 just what i needed to help me sleep tonight. As someone who right now is on the receiving end of some non-public (currently) hate and threats, i can't imagine how these people feel to be blasted by everyone and no one. So sad what our society has come to.

 

[LyraGardenia]

One of my best friends from kindergarten through senior year of high school is getting married this month, and I'm not invited. Granted, we drifted apart when I moved away after high school, and I haven't seen or talked to her other than the occasional Facebook comment in almost 5 years, so I get it. I've never even met her fiancé. But I'm still sad, because growing up I always assumed I'd be one of her bridesmaids, and now I won't even be at her wedding. I think I'm just really bad at maintaining friendships, especially long-distance ones. I've already lost touch with most of my friends from college, and I only graduated 2 years ago. Hopefully I'll be able to make some good friends in vet school. If I were hypothetically getting married soon, I can think of maybe two people I'd want in my wedding party, and only one is female.

 

[pp9]

In other news, PETA released a free PS4 downloadable game last fall, hadn't heard about it until now. Pure propaganda BS that sugarcoats violence towards those PETA targets. And really bad graphics.

 

[missdarjeeling]

Training people is enough of an irritant as it is at my place. Especially since we're supposed to do that while simultaneously doing our job and keeping the doctors on time with their packed schedules. There's no time set aside where we can just sit with a new person and walk them through things step by step without interruption, and I constantly get pulled away from trainees to help with other things.

But this time it's even worse. My trainee isn't even listening to a word I say, and every time I teach her something or explain the way we do things (simple things like "You should put your phone away. We're not supposed to have them on the floor, and you don't want the manager to see you with it." or "When you go into the room, get XYZ out on the counter for the doctor."), I get a head nod and an okay, but then she changes nothing. Even after multiple reminders. I don't know if she's deliberately ignoring me because she thinks she knows everything already or if she's a space cadet/running on auto-pilot, but yesterday she either disregarded or forgot something I had told her an hour prior and then messed up while I was stuck in X-ray (which she couldn't help with because she doesn't have an exposure badge). One of the doctors was irritated because it set her back by a good 15 minutes for no good reason.

So training this person is definitely feeling like a complete waste of my time, and I'm not sure if I should go straight to management and let them know or if I should try to talk to her first. I don't know if it's her issue or if I'm approaching things the wrong way for what she needs as far as training or if it's both of us who are the problem, but it's not working out, and I don't want to keep wasting my breath and then end up getting blamed for not training her properly when she screws up.

 

[dyachei]

It seems to be a problem with the younger crowd - the phone thing. They just dont get why it's a problem

 

[DVMDream]

It seems to be a problem with the younger crowd - the phone thing. They just dont get why it's a problem

Seriously. My younger sister went to a job interview yesterday and she was told phones aren't allowed and they don't allow employees to do homework while at work. She wasn't happy about either. She was complaining to my mom about it and my mom tells her to get over it. She's working they are paying her to work not be on her phone or doing homework.

It wouldn't surprise me if that is enough for her to not take the job.