Case Western vs. UVA

hagia · Mar 7, 2012

Hello, guess it's that time of year where these threads are going up all over the place. Thought I'd ask for some insight on these two schools.

UVA
Pros:
-Really nice, new facilities, including new clinical facilities in the works
-1.5 year pre-clinical
-New curriculum seems to be maturing and I think it will be well-balanced for the incoming class.
-Charlottesville seems like a pleasant, relaxed setting in which to go to med school.

Cons:
-Having to take Step 1 before clerkships, unlike a lot of other schools with condensed pre-clinical curriculae.
-Some of the rotation sites are far away from campus and require temporary housing.

Case
Pros:
-Their curriculum seems to be refined after many years. Having seen their PBL in action, it's clear they know how to do it well.
-Clinical training might be marginally stronger than UVA (?), and it is more conveniently located.

Cons:
-2 years basic sciences
-I think I might prefer Cville to Cleveland
-Facilities are slightly outdated imo.

Overall, it seems like their academic reputation is pretty similar, just going by USNWR rankings. In addition, it's hard to pin down which I would prefer going by my pro/con list. Financially, they are also approximately equal for me.

Nibbly · Mar 7, 2012

I don't really have an answer for you, but I interviewed at both and have a few pros/cons to add to the list!

Case

Pros:
Really seems like they care about their students (teach their students a snow survival course!)
You already mentioned it, but the PBL element of the curriculum seems amazing.
Cheap, cheap, cheap living.

Cons:
Frigid area.
Heard some guy talking on the phone about his aggravated burglary and child endangerment charges whilst walking near the school...yikes!

Virginia

Pros:
Better Weather
Pretty city (seems like there's lots of nice places to shop, too)
Very caring staff, from what I saw.
Peaceful atmosphere (remember the bird songs in the admissions office?)

Cons:
Itty Bitty airport (could be irritating when it comes time for residency interviews).
I noticed two students on the the school specific thread who seemed super disappointed with the curriculum. I found that a bit concerning. We never got to speak to any students who are currently taking the new curriculum, which further worried me...

All in all, it's going to be a tough choice. I know I'd jump on either of them, given the chance. Hopefully you'll get better insight during second look. I suspect many of these decisions come down to a gut feeling rather than a sensible pro/con list. Best of luck with this difficult decision! :luck:

I'm sure you'll make the right choice for you in the end.

afob100 · Mar 7, 2012

I think you have to really decide if Case's PBL is suited to your style of learning. UVA on the other hand, has students learn material on your own (about 30-40% of the time) and come to class and apply the material via problem sets and team-based learning. The remainder of the time (60-70%) is more traditional lectures with clicker questions, etc.

You should also take into account the shortened 1.5 year pre-clinical curriculum at UVA. This allows you to finish your required clerkships in February of your third year (a full 5-6 months before most other schools). The huge benefit of this is that you can accomplish some serious research during this time + away rotations (before other med students) well before applying to residencies in the fall. (Let's be honest, a summer of research before applying for residency is ok but nothing compared to 3-4 months of dedicated time). This puts students at a significant advantage IMO when applying for residencies. On the other hand, if you aren't sure about what specialty you want to go into, you have ample time to rotate through various electives during the 4th year to pick a specialty (again) well before applying to residency.

These are just a few things to consider. I wouldn't worry about taking boards before entering the clerkships...from the second year students I've talked to, they said that they were able to synthesize and solidify their knowledge of the basic sciences during their Step 1 studies. This should (hopefully) make them stronger/more likely to succeed on the actual clerkships.

Good luck with your decision...you can't really go wrong with either school.

Whiskey River · Mar 7, 2012

afob100 said:
I think you have to really decide if Case's PBL is suited to your style of learning. UVA on the other hand, has students learn material on your own (about 30-40% of the time) and come to class and apply the material via problem sets and team-based learning. The remainder of the time (60-70%) is more traditional lectures with clicker questions, etc.

You should also take into account the shortened 1.5 year pre-clinical curriculum at UVA. This allows you to finish your required clerkships in February of your third year (a full 5-6 months before most other schools). The huge benefit of this is that you can accomplish some serious research during this time + away rotations (before other med students) well before applying to residencies in the fall. (Let's be honest, a summer of research before applying for residency is ok but nothing compared to 3-4 months of dedicated time). This puts students at a significant advantage IMO when applying for residencies. On the other hand, if you aren't sure about what specialty you want to go into, you have ample time to rotate through various electives during the 4th year to pick a specialty (again) well before applying to residency.

These are just a few things to consider. I wouldn't worry about taking boards before entering the clerkships...from the second year students I've talked to, they said that they were able to synthesize and solidify their knowledge of the basic sciences during their Step 1 studies. This should (hopefully) make them stronger/more likely to succeed on the actual clerkships.

Good luck with your decision...you can't really go wrong with either school.

Since it appears you may have been through the "next generation" curriculum, can you comment on it? Do students like it? Or is there reason for concern?
Thanks!

drizzt3117 · Mar 7, 2012

I'd say these two schools are very similar in terms of reputation but for me, cville > cleveland.

Signe · Mar 7, 2012

At least for me, Case's curriculum is amazing. We learn the material mostly on our own, with a few lectures, and then we synthesize and teach one another in IQ (PBL) which is central to the entire curriculum. It really helps to ask questions and explain concepts to one another in small groups. The varying perspectives and talents of the students here really add to that dynamic.

Also, we have written tests only every 11-14 weeks or so, which means a few things. 1) When we do take the test we will have a learn an entire organ system and we can understand how it works with normal/path/anatomy/histology ect 2) You have a lot of flexibility in your schedule because you aren't worrying about exams very often 3) The fact that the exams are essays and not multiple choice forces you to really know the concepts not just memorize.

Given all those facts about our curriculum, the key for me in choosing Case was: Are the students in your prospective class your kind of people? If you're serious about deciding between the two, I'd come to second look (April 20th and 21st) and check out the curriculum and your potential fellow classmates.

Finally, Cleveland is not that bad at all. There's awesome food, cheap rent, culture (museums, Cleveland symphony orchestra), and a fake ocean. As far as being a student is concerned there isn't much more I could want. Best of luck with your decision!

KinasePro · Mar 7, 2012

Tough call. I'd give Case the edge due to the options of rotation/research at Cleveland Clinic. Plus great lakes brewery is awesome. That being said, be wary of the copious amounts of Case PBL kool aid on these forum. Not all of their students are jazzed about 2 years of tedious group work.

The intensely negative feedback on UVA's new curriculum is def. a red flag. I haven't seen anything else quite like it on SDN, which says a lot.

Still, both schools are rock solid and you can't lose in this decision.

CCLCMer · Mar 7, 2012

From a resident's perspective, here is my advice on picking a medical school.

1) If you're accepted to more than one school, you should pick whichever one is the cheapest. When you reach my point in the process, you won't care about whether you did PBL versus independent study versus traditional lectures for eight hours per day as a pre-clinical student. None of that matters in the long run. What you'll care about is that your student loans are coming due, and your interest keeps accruing while you're trying to pay down your loans on a salary of $50,000 per year. If you willingly chose to take on $300,000+ debt even though you had the opportunity to take on significantly less, you'll be regretting it five years from now.

2) If the schools cost about the same, which they do for you, then go to the second looks for both, and pick whichever one you just have a better warm fuzzy feeling about. Because it's not like you won't get a great education at either school, and there's no good objective reason for picking one school over the other once you factor out the cost issue. Medical schools are more similar than they are different, because they all get accredited by the same governing organization. I'm saying this even though I come from a medical school that has one of the more unique curriculums compared to most.

Congrats on your acceptances, and seriously, don't sweat this decision too much. Like the guy above me said, you really can't make a bad decision.

afob100 · Mar 7, 2012

So, let me address all of the negativity with the UVA curriculum on SDN. The fact of the matter is that a tiny minority of students (and I can literally name each one of them = ~5) are very disgruntled with the curriculum and have chosen to vocalize their opinions on SDN/public outlets. However, the majority (basically everyone else) is either happy or simply content with the curriculum as is. These students do not go out of their way to express their satisfaction/contentedness (is that really a word? lol) on SDN with the curriculum. This makes sense no?...would you go out of your way to say that you are satisfied with your education or would you prefer to publicly bitch and complain?

I am in between happy and content (not quite fully on either side) with regard to the curriculum. I really enjoy the systems-based approach and the fact that we usually come to class to apply knowledge. Our systems have been a success as far as I'm concerned (especially compared to SMD14) and a majority of my classmates would agree. We are about to finish up the GI system this weekend with our final exam (btw exams occur every 3-4 weeks and are taken anytime you want from Fri-Sunday = awesome...they are also NOT cumulative = low stress).

I've attached a copy of our current GI system overview (4 week system). You can see the specifics of the types of classes we've had during this system. Basically, we learn normal histology, physiology, anatomy, etc. early on - then shortly after we learn the abnormal pathology/histology, etc. We also have patient presentations where a physician will interview an actual patient that has a disease that we are studying in front of the class in order to get us to understand how a patient would actually present in real life (and we get to ask questions, etc).

Take a glance at the various types of learning activities we have (last slide of powerpoint)...case presentations, large group discussions, small group discussions, patient presentations, TBL, etc. They really vary the learning style here to try to accommodate everyone's different learning styles. However, some students prefer ONLY traditional lectures = you can see where the frustration would come from.

My only complaint is that the workload is really heavy during the beginning of systems because the system leaders need us to understand all of the normal physiology before they can teach us the abnormal/pathology. This means that we struggle to keep up early on, but then we gradually learn the normal/abnormal by working with and applying the material during the subsequent weeks.

I hope this helps. PM me if you want more details. I can send you more specifics/show you about our system.

Edit: CCLCMer is absolutely correct..Pre-clinical years are pretty meaningless in the long run..you just need to get the info in your head and rock step 1.

On that note, essays for exams at Case seems like a joke. If Step 1 had essays, this would make sense but it's doesn't. Our exams are all multiple choice and mostly have clinical vignettes, which mirror board style questions = awesome. They really do limit the amount of minutiae that they ask on exams.

Signe · Mar 8, 2012

afob100 said:
So, let me address all of the negativity with the UVA curriculum on SDN. The fact of the matter is that a tiny minority of students (and I can literally name each one of them = ~5) are very disgruntled with the curriculum and have chosen to vocalize their opinions on SDN/public outlets. However, the majority (basically everyone else) is either happy or simply content with the curriculum as is. These students do not go out of their way to express their satisfaction/contentedness (is that really a word? lol) on SDN with the curriculum. This makes sense no?...would you go out of your way to say that you are satisfied with your education or would you prefer to publicly bitch and complain?

I am in between happy and content (not quite fully on either side) with regard to the curriculum. I really enjoy the systems-based approach and the fact that we usually come to class to apply knowledge. Our systems have been a success as far as I'm concerned (especially compared to SMD14) and a majority of my classmates would agree. We are about to finish up the GI system this weekend with our final exam (btw exams occur every 3-4 weeks and are taken anytime you want from Fri-Sunday = awesome...they are also NOT cumulative = low stress).

I've attached a copy of our current GI system overview (4 week system). You can see the specifics of the types of classes we've had during this system. Basically, we learn normal histology, physiology, anatomy, etc. early on - then shortly after we learn the abnormal pathology/histology, etc. We also have patient presentations where a physician will interview an actual patient that has a disease that we are studying in front of the class in order to get us to understand how a patient would actually present in real life (and we get to ask questions, etc).

Take a glance at the various types of learning activities we have (last slide of powerpoint)...case presentations, large group discussions, small group discussions, patient presentations, TBL, etc. They really vary the learning style here to try to accommodate everyone's different learning styles. However, some students prefer ONLY traditional lectures = you can see where the frustration would come from.

My only complaint is that the workload is really heavy during the beginning of systems because the system leaders need us to understand all of the normal physiology before they can teach us the abnormal/pathology. This means that we struggle to keep up early on, but then we gradually learn the normal/abnormal by working with and applying the material during the subsequent weeks.

I hope this helps. PM me if you want more details. I can send you more specifics/show you about our system.

Edit: CCLCMer is absolutely correct..Pre-clinical years are pretty meaningless in the long run..you just need to get the info in your head and rock step 1.

On that note, essays for exams at Case seems like a joke. If Step 1 had essays, this would make sense but it's doesn't. Our exams are all multiple choice and mostly have clinical vignettes, which mirror board style questions = awesome. They really do limit the amount of minutiae that they ask on exams.

I'm sure there are some at Case that may disagree with me, but I don't see the essay exams as a joke--I find it pretty helpful especially as far as the caliber of studying that's required. We also take NBME practice exams with each block and have practice multiple choice questions every week. As far as preclinical years being meaningless in the long run, I can agree--but it sure sucks if you're in the first two years and you're miserable while learning the material (I'm not suggesting this about UVA's curriculum at all--I know very little about it, I'm just speaking generally). If you're going to learn all the same material, you might as well do it in a way that you find enjoyable.

It seems like the overall sentiment expressed here is a good one--get as much information as you can about the two schools (going to second looks is def a good idea) and make your decision from there.

CCLCMer · Mar 8, 2012

afob100 said:
On that note, essays for exams at Case seems like a joke. If Step 1 had essays, this would make sense but it's doesn't. Our exams are all multiple choice and mostly have clinical vignettes, which mirror board style questions = awesome. They really do limit the amount of minutiae that they ask on exams.

It's great that you want to defend your school, but don't stoop down to the level of bashing ours, man. Especially because you're wrong that the Case curriculum doesn't prepare people well for Step 1. And never mind the kool-aid people drink about the superiority of one type of exam over another--the CCLCM program doesn't have ANY exams at all. Even without exams, we still do very well on Step 1.

Signe said:
As far as preclinical years being meaningless in the long run, I can agree--but it sure sucks if you're in the first two years and you're miserable while learning the material (I'm not suggesting this about UVA's curriculum at all--I know very little about it, I'm just speaking generally). If you're going to learn all the same material, you might as well do it in a way that you find enjoyable.

You have a good point about choosing the school you like best so that you enjoy your first two years more. But again, I'm agreeing with the caveat that the schools you're deciding between are basically equal in terms of cost. Because two years of being in a curriculum you like less in order to save a hundred thousand dollars worth of debt is totally worth it. As much as I loved my time at Case/CCLCM, I would not have chosen this school if I had to pay full price when I had scholarships to other schools that objectively provide just as good of an education as Case does.

[Someone PMed me to ask where I would have gone if all the money was equal, so I wanted to clarify: all of the money WAS equal. I had scholarships to a few other schools as well as to both Case programs. Out of all the schools that offered me scholarships, I chose CCLCM because I liked it the best. But if I had to pay $250,000+ to go there, I would have gone to one of the other schools that gave me a scholarship instead, even though I liked CCLCM better. Hope that makes sense.]

Also, what you think might make you happy as a pre-med isn't necessarily going to be something that makes you happy as a med student. Most people have not done real PBL prior to medical school, and they don't really know if they're going to like doing PBL. So you make your best guess, and you keep moving forward once the decision is made. I say this as someone who made an analogous mistake while picking a residency. If I could do my match over again, I would have chosen to rank a different program first. Not because my program doesn't provide top notch training (it does), but it turns out I don't like some aspects of the program that I thought I would like when I was making up my match list.

mvenus929 · Mar 10, 2012

hagia said:
UVA
Pros:
-Really nice, new facilities, including new clinical facilities in the works
-1.5 year pre-clinical
-New curriculum seems to be maturing and I think it will be well-balanced for the incoming class.
-Charlottesville seems like a pleasant, relaxed setting in which to go to med school.

Cons:
-Having to take Step 1 before clerkships, unlike a lot of other schools with condensed pre-clinical curriculae.
-Some of the rotation sites are far away from campus and require temporary housing

I just wanted to address your two cons, just so you had all the information about them.

1) I'm currently on rotations now, though I just started. I can't fathom trying to study for Step 1 while being on rotations, even if some of the information is cemented in more. After all, even though Step 1 is all clinical vignettes, a lot of the questions are straight memorization... where an artery is, where it derived from embryologically, what part of the biochemical pathway is messed up, etc.

So, I don't think it's a disadvantage taking Step 1 prior to starting rotations, especially since many of the classes you take during the first 18 months have a strong clinical focus.

2) If your away rotation is more than a 45 minute commute, the school will provide housing for you (free of charge), unless you volunteer to be placed in your own housing. I'm not sure whether you were clear on this or not, so I just wanted to state it explicitly. You don't have to find your own housing, and even some of your 'away' rotations might allow you to live at your place in Cville, as is the case with my roommate on Family Medicine right now.

There are also students who do away rotations at UVA, especially during the summer (we're one of the sites for international research rotations), so if you have an away rotation during that time, you can sublet your room out and make a little money in the process.

gosyrorange · Mar 21, 2012

Hi mvenus929,

What type of housing does UVA offer for its students on away rotations? Is it of decent quality?

mvenus929 · Mar 24, 2012

gosyrorange said:
Hi mvenus929,

What type of housing does UVA offer for its students on away rotations? Is it of decent quality?

I've not been on an away rotation, but generally the ones for Family Medicine and Outpatient Internal Medicine are bed and breakfast style places. The rotations in Richmond have a cottage to stay in (one bedroom, two people, same gender). My friend who just got back from OB said that they're pretty nice. The Peds rotation in Fairfax has a townhome near the hospital. The rotations in Roanoke and Salem are dorm style, but I won't be at Salem at all, and won't be in Roanoke until January, so again, I'm not sure the quality of those.

Steeler7588 · Mar 25, 2012

hagia said:
Cons:
-Having to take Step 1 before clerkships, unlike a lot of other schools with condensed pre-clinical curriculae.

Have to second mvenus's view that this is not a con at all. I feel like it shored up a lot of concepts for me heading into 3rd year, where I now feel a lot more confident about pathology and treatments (still so much more to learn, though!). When I was studying, I wondered if seeing patients would have made studying certain concepts easier. I think I would've had a better grasp of pharm, but that's about it. The actual Step 1 exam ended up being pretty straightforward, and clinicals would not have helped in any way.

Plus, it feels SO FREAKING GOOD to be done this early. Plus I know what residencies I'm competitive for, which isn't going to affect my effort during rotations, but it is nice knowing ahead of time if there are relationships I'd want to pursue while exploring each clerkship.

MagnoliaWine · Mar 26, 2012

Hello OP, you are me.

Apologies for hijacking this thread a little, but does anyone have any suggestions for getting to know Case a little better if I didn't get into second look? The registration filled up really fast.

Case Western vs. UVA

hagia

New Member

Nibbly

Full Member

afob100

Full Member

Whiskey River

Full Member

drizzt3117

chick magnet

Signe

Full Member

KinasePro

Das it mane

CCLCMer

CCLCM Alum c/o 2011

afob100

Full Member

Attachments

Signe

Full Member

CCLCMer

CCLCM Alum c/o 2011

mvenus929

Full Member

gosyrorange

New Member

mvenus929

Full Member

Steeler7588

Full Member

MagnoliaWine

Full Member

Similar threads