2009-2010 Columbia University Application Thread

[mdeast]

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yup, BU thread, I found him!

Wow. BU --> Columbia. That's a big jump. Congrats to him.

 

[justscared]

The BU Thread post "Accepted today at Columbia...withdrawing from BU...hopefully someone gets my spot! Good luck to everyone still waiting!"

It does not say in the above post that he/she was on the WL at Columbia which was why I asked mmmcdowe if they knew specifically that there was movement off the WL

 

[panda25]

The BU Thread post "Accepted today at Columbia...withdrawing from BU...hopefully someone gets my spot! Good luck to everyone still waiting!"

It does not say in the above post that he/she was on the WL at Columbia which was why I asked mmmcdowe if they knew specifically that there was movement off the WL

😕
not sure there's any other way to get accepted to Columbia at this point except off of the WL. All the regular acceptances were given out in early March.

 

[Mailinator]

😕
not sure there's any other way to get accepted to Columbia at this point except off of the WL. All the regular acceptances were given out in early March.

Looks like he was on the WL...found this when looking back a few pages:

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by gflip88
Did anyone else get this letter from Dean Frantz asking for more LOIs "later in the spring"? I received the letter yesterday and it was postmarked 3/24...

Yep...got that a few days ago."

 

[mmmcdowe]

I don't know anything about the BU student specifically, just that I have observed proclaimed waitlist movement.

 

[Keeksy18]

I had a second interview today with Dean Nicholas. All I can say is: he's great, Columbia's great, and I would LOVE to attend. Here's hoping.

 

[justscared]

I don't know anything about the BU student specifically, just that I have observed proclaimed waitlist movement.

mmmcdowe you have been incredibly generous with supplying info to this thread but I am still unclear as to what your last post actually means ...does it mean you have heard (observed) the Deans (Drs Frantz or Nicholas) tendering acceptances to people off the WL or have you just surmised it from previous posts?

 

[mmmcdowe]

mmmcdowe you have been incredibly generous with supplying info to this thread but I am still unclear as to what your last post actually means ...does it mean you have heard (observed) the Deans (Drs Frantz or Nicholas) tendering acceptances to people off the WL or have you just surmised it from previous posts?

People have messaging me about it and so I assume they are telling the truth that they indeed got accepted off of waitlist 😀

 

[justscared]

I had a second interview today with Dean Nicholas. All I can say is: he's great, Columbia's great, and I would LOVE to attend. Here's hoping.

Congrats on your 2nd interview!!! Did you send an LOI and that's how you got the 2nd interview or was it unsolicited? Did he give you any idea about your chances of being accepted? Again congrats and good luck!!

 

[Keeksy18]

Thanks! I did send an LOI. I emailed it to the admissions email, but began it "Dear Dean Nicholas..." About a week later, I received a typed response from him by snail mail saying that I should call and schedule a 2nd interview.
He was very gracious and warm throughout the interview today. At the end, he said that very few accepted students have withdrawn their applications as of now, and that real movement will begin May 15th and last two weeks or so - which is pretty logical. I enjoyed the opportunity to speak with him - at least this way I know that I've really done all I can to let Columbia know how strongly I feel about P&S.

Hope this is helpful to you! Good luck!

 

[BrentSp44]

I got accepted yesterday off the wait list. I was in NYC this last weekend attending the Unite for Sight conference at Yale because I am volunteering with them this summer. I e-mailed the admissions office a couple of weeks ago about setting up a 2nd interview while I was in town and Dean Nicholas e-mailed me back saying he could meet with me yesterday. At the end of the interview, he offered me an acceptance and I took it immediately. I was shocked to say the least. It was everything and more than I could have hoped for. He said that I was just on the cusp of getting an outright acceptance and that was why he was offering it to me so early. He said that very few people had been accepted off the wait list so far, so I don't think I would worry if you have not heard back from them yet.

As for what I did since my initial interview, I sent a LOI to Dean Frantz immediately after my interview, also sent a hand-written thank you to my interviewer. After receiving my wait list letter, I sent another strongly stated LOI to Dean Frantz and a recommendation letter from the ophthalmologist I work for because I applied this past summer before I started working at his clinic. I didn't post on here yesterday because I didn't want to cause a stir so early in the process since they have apparently not accepted very many off the WL so far. Obviously it is too late for that 🙂 so I figured I might as well post. Good luck to everyone still waiting. I hope many more can join in my excitement in the weeks to come!

 

[panda25]

I got accepted yesterday off the wait list. I was in NYC this last weekend attending the Unite for Sight conference at Yale because I am volunteering with them this summer. I e-mailed the admissions office a couple of weeks ago about setting up a 2nd interview while I was in town and Dean Nicholas e-mailed me back saying he could meet with me yesterday. At the end of the interview, he offered me an acceptance and I took it immediately. I was shocked to say the least. It was everything and more than I could have hoped for. He said that I was just on the cusp of getting an outright acceptance and that was why he was offering it to me so early. He said that very few people had been accepted off the wait list so far, so I don't think I would worry if you have not heard back from them yet.

As for what I did since my initial interview, I sent a LOI to Dean Frantz immediately after my interview, also sent a hand-written thank you to my interviewer. After receiving my wait list letter, I sent another strongly stated LOI to Dean Frantz and a recommendation letter from the ophthalmologist I work for because I applied this past summer before I started working at his clinic. I didn't post on here yesterday because I didn't want to cause a stir so early in the process since they have apparently not accepted very many off the WL so far. Obviously it is too late for that 🙂 so I figured I might as well post. Good luck to everyone still waiting. I hope many more can join in my excitement in the weeks to come!

Thank you so much for sharing! CONGRATS! OK, so since everyone is now confidently revealing "second interview" invitations, I wanted to let everyone know that I was lucky enough to be offered one as well! I'll report back on how it goes in the next week or so (my appointment is being confirmed). Ridiculously excited. Keep sharing everyone! 🙂

 

[Keeksy18]

Wow! Congrats that's wonderful!

 

[pelliper]

for people getting second interviews: are you guys being offered these after strongly hinting in your LOIs, or did you call up the admissions office(s) and ask for them explicitly?

 

[bluebeard]

Has anyone initiated phone contact with either Dean? I emailed the admissions office requesting a call and haven't heard back. Anyone know how this works?

 

[BrentSp44]

for people getting second interviews: are you guys being offered these after strongly hinting in your LOIs, or did you call up the admissions office(s) and ask for them explicitly?

I sent an "in the area" e-mail requesting a second interview. They never initiated contact. I sent the email to the admissions address and then got a response e-mail from Dean Nicholas saying to contact Ellen Perez to set up a time.

 

[panda25]

I sent an "in the area" e-mail requesting a second interview. They never initiated contact. I sent the email to the admissions address and then got a response e-mail from Dean Nicholas saying to contact Ellen Perez to set up a time.

My request to speak with one of the deans was tacked on at the end of my LOI and then I, too, got a response email to set up a time to talk.

 

[gumboelephant]

I sent a LOI via snail mail. Got a letter in the mail from Dean Nicholas saying to phone admissions and schedule a meeting with him. Did not ask for a second interview.

 

[schizosquirrel]

Just wanted to add a follow up. I mailed Dean Frantz a letter a few weeks ago expressing my dissatisfaction with my interview day, some things that my interviewer said, and some things that he didn't really let me say.

I got a very nice personal note from Dean Nicholas this afternoon, stating that he apologized on behalf of the committee, took my letter very seriously, had relayed this information to my interviewer, and while he understands why I had waited to contact him, had wished I would have called the office for a second interview earlier as he would have personally arranged it. That remains irrelevant now, because my decision has already been determined (i.e. rejected).

For anyone else who had a strange interview experience, I think it's OK to let the office know of things that go wrong as to prevent future mishaps from happening again (at Columbia or any other school). I was left with a very negative viewpoint about the admissions office at Columbia after that experience...which I think has changed a lot after receiving a response. If for nothing else, it points out things that the admissions office may be unaware they're doing wrong.

 

[hasslefree]

I sent a LOI via snail mail. Got a letter in the mail from Dean Nicholas saying to phone admissions and schedule a meeting with him. Did not ask for a second interview.

After my LOI, I also did not ask for a 2nd interview... not sure if that really would help or hurt. At this point money is all spent. Disagree with mmmcdowe when he posted all WL letters were the same, not true. My roommates letter did not say "very highly ranked" as did mine...Don't know if that is a WL "ranking" but the tenor of his letter was absolutely different than mine.

 

[mmmcdowe]

After my LOI, I also did not ask for a 2nd interview... not sure if that really would help or hurt. At this point money is all spent. Disagree with mmmcdowe when he posted all WL letters were the same, not true. My roommates letter did not say "very highly ranked" as did mine...Don't know if that is a WL "ranking" but the tenor of his letter was absolutely different than mine.

All waitlist letters are the same unless there is handwriting on it. The very highly ranked is further in the letter not the first one, which just says highly ranked according to posters. The admission office has never lied to me before so I don't see why they'd start now. I asked about this and there is only one waitlist letter unless there was some huge miscommunication between us..

 

[hasslefree]

All waitlist letters are the same unless there is handwriting on it. The very highly ranked is further in the letter not the first one, which just says highly ranked according to posters. The admission office has never lied to me before so I don't see why they'd start now. I asked about this and there is only one waitlist letter unless there was some huge miscommunication between us..

I will believe your info if BrentSp44's letter had a handwritten part or did it say "very highly ranked"?????? I know this is all nonsense until May 15th but fun to speculate...also did you get a straight offer from Columbia or off the WL?

 

[mmmcdowe]

I will believe your info if BrentSp44's letter had a handwritten part or did it say "very highly ranked"?????? I know this is all nonsense until May 15th but fun to speculate...also did you get a straight offer from Columbia or off the WL?

I got off waitlist about this time last year.

 

[cramlie]

Just wanted to add a follow up. I mailed Dean Frantz a letter a few weeks ago expressing my dissatisfaction with my interview day, some things that my interviewer said, and some things that he didn't really let me say.

I got a very nice personal note from Dean Nicholas this afternoon, stating that he apologized on behalf of the committee, took my letter very seriously, had relayed this information to my interviewer, and while he understands why I had waited to contact him, had wished I would have called the office for a second interview earlier as he would have personally arranged it. That remains irrelevant now, because my decision has already been determined (i.e. rejected).

For anyone else who had a strange interview experience, I think it's OK to let the office know of things that go wrong as to prevent future mishaps from happening again (at Columbia or any other school). I was left with a very negative viewpoint about the admissions office at Columbia after that experience...which I think has changed a lot after receiving a response. If for nothing else, it points out things that the admissions office may be unaware they're doing wrong.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of bad experience did you have with your interviewer.

Its seems like alot of people didn't have a good interview day at Columbia (myself included). Second look definately helped clear some of that up, but I think Columbia really needs to get its interview day-game sorted out.

 

[schizosquirrel]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of bad experience did you have with your interviewer.

Its seems like alot of people didn't have a good interview day at Columbia (myself included). Second look definately helped clear some of that up, but I think Columbia really needs to get its interview day-game sorted out.

In terms of my interview, which I wrote to the Dean about...My interviewer basically didn't take any time to ask me questions. He also showed up 45 minutes and made me late for the tour. No one in the office apologized or said anything about that...I sat in the interview room for a good 20 minutes before asking the receptionist, who told me she had just seen my interviewer go in to have coffee with a colleague and that I should wait.

He asked me 1 question and interrupted my answer. He then asked me about some study abroad experiences I had, and cringed when he found out what LGBT meant. Together, these accounted for about 3-4 minutes. Then he said basically, "Well, I've looked at your application and it's great. You seem like a normal guy, so that's great too." He went into a long discussion about how the admissions process works, and told me that only a relatively small group of people are rejected, "the duds", and that I couldn't possibly belong in that group. Then, he spent about a half hour lecturing to me about how great Columbia is and why I shouldn't attend the medical school I currently work at (also a top school).

There where a million questions he could of asked me. He was a neurosurgeon for instance, and I had a published paper and 2 years research...in....yes, a neurosurgery lab.

That was a good talk, and he did offer time for me to ask questions while he talked. At the end of it though, I emerged having had absolutely no chance to add anything personal to my application (to me, the point of an interview) and an assurance that I'd either be waitlisted or accepted. I was rejected in March, which just really bothered me given the circumstances and what my interviewer said to me. I would have asked for a second interview, by my interviewer had already told me I wasn't going to get rejected.

At the end of it, I'm in the stance that they had invited me for an interview, I had taken time out of my work schedule to attend, they didn't take the time to ask my any meaningful questions, they tell me I won't be rejected, and then they reject me. If I was some socially awkward person I could understand this, but I've received 8 acceptances this cycle so I know my interview skills are good. I also would have been fine with the rejection had I gotten the sense that the interview was thorough. It wasn't...so I left the day clueless as to the point of inviting me to interview, if based on my stats and application ( which is all they could have evaluated given the brevity and uselessness of my interview) apparently weren't good enough for Columbia.

I also had other problems on the day. I really liked my tour guides, but I ended up eating lunch with a student who basically ignored everyone at the table save two fellow Yale undergrads who sat with us. She also made jokes about my undergraduate college, which I found offensive. I didn't mention this in my letter, because it really wasn't something the admissions office has control over.

Dean Nicholas' letter painted a different image in my mind of the school, but I left that day feeling the administration was cold, rude, kind of conservative, and just not very warm.

 

[hasslefree]

Had a similar experience with interviewer.... but was WL.... interview process there seems hit or miss. My interviewer asked me nothing but droned on about his/her surgical skills and made it clear how impressed they were with their career, they did not go to Columbia for med school but "hey look where I are now" Alternatively, my Wash U experience was totally engaging.... it's just that I'm from NYC area and not sure how I'll like or fit in to the midwest culture.

mmmcdowe...you've been great with disseminating info... so you got in in April and not after May15th

 

[cramlie]

In terms of my interview, which I wrote to the Dean about...My interviewer basically didn't take any time to ask me questions. He also showed up 45 minutes and made me late for the tour. No one in the office apologized or said anything about that...I sat in the interview room for a good 20 minutes before asking the receptionist, who told me she had just seen my interviewer go in to have coffee with a colleague and that I should wait.

He asked me 1 question and interrupted my answer. He then asked me about some study abroad experiences I had, and cringed when he found out what LGBT meant. Together, these accounted for about 3-4 minutes. Then he said basically, "Well, I've looked at your application and it's great. You seem like a normal guy, so that's great too." He went into a long discussion about how the admissions process works, and told me that only a relatively small group of people are rejected, "the duds", and that I couldn't possibly belong in that group. Then, he spent about a half hour lecturing to me about how great Columbia is and why I shouldn't attend the medical school I currently work at (also a top school).

There where a million questions he could of asked me. He was a neurosurgeon for instance, and I had a published paper and 2 years research...in....yes, a neurosurgery lab.

That was a good talk, and he did offer time for me to ask questions while he talked. At the end of it though, I emerged having had absolutely no chance to add anything personal to my application (to me, the point of an interview) and an assurance that I'd either be waitlisted or accepted. I was rejected in March, which just really bothered me given the circumstances and what my interviewer said to me. I would have asked for a second interview, by my interviewer had already told me I wasn't going to get rejected.

At the end of it, I'm in the stance that they had invited me for an interview, I had taken time out of my work schedule to attend, they didn't take the time to ask my any meaningful questions, they tell me I won't be rejected, and then they reject me. If I was some socially awkward person I could understand this, but I've received 8 acceptances this cycle so I know my interview skills are good. I also would have been fine with the rejection had I gotten the sense that the interview was thorough. It wasn't...so I left the day clueless as to the point of inviting me to interview, if based on my stats and application ( which is all they could have evaluated given the brevity and uselessness of my interview) apparently weren't good enough for Columbia.

I also had other problems on the day. I really liked my tour guides, but I ended up eating lunch with a student who basically ignored everyone at the table save two fellow Yale undergrads who sat with us. She also made jokes about my undergraduate college, which I found offensive. I didn't mention this in my letter, because it really wasn't something the admissions office has control over.

Dean Nicholas' letter painted a different image in my mind of the school, but I left that day feeling the administration was cold, rude, kind of conservative, and just not very warm.

similar experience as well, a very nice interviewer who seemed very interested in themselves.

Also, the tour guides (while nice) seemed to be very interested in the schools that the other interviewing students went (mostly ivies).

 

[mmmcdowe]

mmmcdowe...you've been great with disseminating info... so you got in in April and not after May15th

Yeah it was late April/early May, definitely recommend all still planning to send in stuff to get in some form of letter/email/call a few days before May 15. It never hurts for you to be in their head when waitlist movement starts.

Also, to clear up any remaining confusion about the waitlist letter. I asked Dean Nicholas about it today when I stopped by to see how life post-second look was treating the office. He confirmed that there was only one waitlist letter. I think the confusion that is resulting of late is the fact that some people might be thinking of letters in response to your waitlist acceptance. Those are not worded the same as the waitlist letter itself, which is what I'm talking about when I say that there is only one waitlist letter.

 

[bluebeard]

All waitlist letters are the same unless there is handwriting on it. The very highly ranked is further in the letter not the first one, which just says highly ranked according to posters. The admission office has never lied to me before so I don't see why they'd start now. I asked about this and there is only one waitlist letter unless there was some huge miscommunication between us..

So you think that the handwriting on the original waitlist letters is a positive sign (I had some on mine and I'm hoping that is the case)?

Another question, I emailed the office asking to schedule a phonecall with Dean Nicholas (I have a couple of questions) several days ago and never heard anything back. Is this abnormal? I was planning on calling on Monday to follow up on the email but I don't want to be a pain.

 

[Question123]

Question for those who were offered a second interview: did you have to decide on Columbia on the spot? I ask b/c Columbia is really expensive, so w/out having any idea how the finances workout, it could be a tough decision to make while sitting in the deans office?

Additionally, what was the interview like? Was it standard or longer/shorter/etc? Just wondering. Thanks!

 

[mmmcdowe]

So you think that the handwriting on the original waitlist letters is a positive sign (I had some on mine and I'm hoping that is the case)?

Another question, I emailed the office asking to schedule a phonecall with Dean Nicholas (I have a couple of questions) several days ago and never heard anything back. Is this abnormal? I was planning on calling on Monday to follow up on the email but I don't want to be a pain.

I don't have verification on that but I would personally consider a personalized note to be a positive sign. If you have questions, it might be better to direct them to the admissions office first. If they can't answer them, they will get you to someone who can.

 

[dw2158]

Question for those who were offered a second interview: did you have to decide on Columbia on the spot? I ask b/c Columbia is really expensive, so w/out having any idea how the finances workout, it could be a tough decision to make while sitting in the deans office?

Additionally, what was the interview like? Was it standard or longer/shorter/etc? Just wondering. Thanks!

that's a question i have as well. though a second interview is feeling pretty unlikely at this point

 

[mmmcdowe]

that's a question i have as well. though a second interview is feeling pretty unlikely at this point

Second interviews and invites are just beginning. 🙂

 

[PhiAlpha]

i sent an email to dean nicholas at [email protected]
.


is this the wrong email to send things to? if so should i resend to another?



thanks
....

 

[evilmd]

Do they just offer 2nd interviews to anybody, even if you don't live near NYC? I spoke with Dean Nicholas on the phone the other day. Although he was incredibly nice, it seemed like he was politely trying to end the conversation quickly, and told me that May 15 is the earliest I should expect to hear anything. Seems like a bad sign, especially since a few have already been taken off the wait list.

 

[panda25]

Do they just offer 2nd interviews to anybody, even if you don't live near NYC? I spoke with Dean Nicholas on the phone the other day. Although he was incredibly nice, it seemed like he was politely trying to end the conversation quickly, and told me that May 15 is the earliest I should expect to hear anything. Seems like a bad sign, especially since a few have already been taken off the wait list.

hm, did you call randomly? Or was this scheduled in advance?

 

[evilmd]

scheduled

 

[mmmcdowe]

scheduled

That would be your second interview. 😉


Also, on a side note. DON'T LIE!!!! The Deans are ridiculously smart, well connected, and knowledgeable. I know the temptation and the desire to get into Columbia but you will be dropped in the garbage if you lie to them. As a side note, they can tell where you have been accepted now that you are on waitlist.

 

[quemador]

Does this mean that if you were only accepted at a middle tier institution that you are less likely to climb off the waitlist than someone who gained acceptance at a supposedly more competitive institution? Can they see where you have been waitlisted too?

 

[mmmcdowe]

Does this mean that if you were only accepted at a middle tier institution that you are less likely to climb off the waitlist than someone who gained acceptance at a supposedly more competitive institution? Can they see where you have been waitlisted too?

I don't know anything about the adcom's usage of that info unfortunately. I also don't know if they can see waitlists... 🙁

 

[mdeast]

That would be your second interview. 😉


Also, on a side note. DON'T LIE!!!! The Deans are ridiculously smart, well connected, and knowledgeable. I know the temptation and the desire to get into Columbia but you will be dropped in the garbage if you lie to them. As a side note, they can tell where you have been accepted now that you are on waitlist.

Just out of curiosity..what could you possibly lie to them about? lol.

And yes, they can't see waitlists. Only acceptances. The reason they have access to this information is to ensure students are enrolled at only one institution, and hold only one acceptance.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Just out of curiosity..what could you possibly lie to them about? lol.

And yes, they can't see waitlists. Only acceptances. The reason they have access to this information is to ensure students are enrolled at only one institution, and hold only one acceptance.

You'd be surprised, but it isn't my place to mention specifics!

 

[hasslefree]

You'd be surprised, but it isn't my place to mention specifics!

If people are lying now as perspective students what kind of doctors are they going to make...the end does not justify the means!!!!

 

[mdeast]

You'd be surprised, but it isn't my place to mention specifics!

Like...a student would say they were accepted at Harvard (even if they were attending State U) just to get Columbia to think they were a great applicant or something?

Haha, I just don't get how people could like to a school post-decision in any way that would help them.

 

[BrentSp44]

Does this mean that if you were only accepted at a middle tier institution that you are less likely to climb off the waitlist than someone who gained acceptance at a supposedly more competitive institution? Can they see where you have been waitlisted too?

Based on my experience, this was not the case. I had been accepted at BU and Alabama (from there originally though OOS now) and they accepted me a few days ago off the WL. Though both good schools, not in the same class as Columbia for sure. Also, I think someone posted wondering whether I had a handwritten note on my WL letter. I did not. It was the same letter everyone else received.

Oh yeah, and about the interview. It was normal length...about 25-30 min. Dean Nicholas and I mostly just exchanged stories. He did ask me to accept their offer at the end of the interview by signing the form, but I had made it 100% clear in my letters that given an offer, I would accept. I honestly don't care how much it costs. Medical school is expensive and even 10k per year or more difference is worth going to Columbia for me.

 

[dw2158]

Based on my experience, this was not the case. I had been accepted at BU and Alabama (from there originally though OOS now) and they accepted me a few days ago off the WL. Though both good schools, not in the same class as Columbia for sure. Also, I think someone posted wondering whether I had a handwritten note on my WL letter. I did not. It was the same letter everyone else received.

Oh yeah, and about the interview. It was normal length...about 25-30 min. Dean Nicholas and I mostly just exchanged stories. He did ask me to accept their offer at the end of the interview by signing the form, but I had made it 100% clear in my letters that given an offer, I would accept. I honestly don't care how much it costs. Medical school is expensive and even 10k per year or more difference is worth going to Columbia for me.

congrats!

i have to admit that this worries me a bit... i just feel like if i tactfully try to say that i can't commit until i get financial aid information, they'll revoke the offer. or not give it to me in the first place. but i guess that's the way the game is played at this point.

plus, i shouldn't worry since the odds of getting to that point are pretty low... i'll just shut up 😳

 

[pelliper]

congrats!

i have to admit that this worries me a bit... i just feel like if i tactfully try to say that i can't commit until i get financial aid information, they'll revoke the offer. or not give it to me in the first place. but i guess that's the way the game is played at this point.

plus, i shouldn't worry since the odds of getting to that point are pretty low... i'll just shut up 😳

i think at that point there's a mutual understanding that they will take care of you financially.

 

[hasslefree]

I disagree... I think if you get in off the WL you are definitely at a disadvantage if you need fin aid...they have already given aid to those they have accepted right off as the cycle continues there is definitely less money to give out and yo end up with all loans... not so good

 

[marele86]

I disagree... I think if you get in off the WL you are definitely at a disadvantage if you need fin aid...they have already given aid to those they have accepted right off as the cycle continues there is definitely less money to give out and yo end up with all loans... not so good

Remember, though - for every waitlist acceptance, at least one person who was given an outright acceptance must have withdrawn, so there's an equal amount of aid available, on average.

 

[hasslefree]

Remember, though - for every waitlist acceptance, at least one person who was given an outright acceptance must have withdrawn, so there's an equal amount of aid available, on average.

Not sure of that argument because if they withdrew then they probably didn't ask for aid or get sufficient aid to go to the school