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I concur with the above regarding our use of the UCF Hospital as it will take several years to become a primary teaching hospital for all disciplines. You will have to use other facilities for most of the M3 rotations. We do have access to Advent Health and Orlando Health for FIRE as well as 4th year rotations. We have overwhelming support in much of our admissions process and other areas of the COM from physicians from AH, OH, Nemours, VA, and HCA (AORTA, Interviewing, teaching, volunteering) as vast majority of the OH and AH physicians are not in favor of the position of their leadership in their political stand of their leadership. The administrative leadership of AH did approach us to reconcile just prior to the COVID, as did OH, but no real discussion has occurred because they are appropriately focused on service to their patients until COVID is reduced. We did not leave them and we made it clear that we were ready to work with them (once they got over their own self-induced leadership faux paus). In the early years of the COM I was also in the Registrar Office and was able to set up the M3 rotations that were offered at both AH and OH. Those courses can be rapidly reinstituted once talks occur.

As a result we have built a very strong and effective M3 program which has yielded much higher student feedback ratings that have risen since departing AH and OH. These other institutions treat our students very well and are eager to teach. Unfortunately many of them are over 50 miles from the COM which means that the COM must provide for your accommodations while at those rotations. When assigning the M3 rotations you have an opportunity to request those rotations be in the Orlando area due to family or other hardships. Finally, there is something to be said in training with different systems to make you flexible in your learning process. I feel that this learned flexibility, the FIRE project, and strong STEP scores are major factors in your residency application/interviews as you achieve a successful Match.
This is really useful to know, thank you. And thank you so much for being so transparent and engaged with us. It speaks volumes about the organizational culture at UCF. This thread is quite simply one of its kind in this respect!

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@REL if possible could you lend some insight into what is the most important factor post-interview in determining acceptance. For example, what would cause somebody to get a high enough AORTA score for an early interview but then receive a committee rank that means that they won’t likely get an offer? Thanks in advance.
 
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Received an A through phone call this morning! UCF is my first choice, super excited!!
 
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II received just now.

Update: I ended up declining the interview. I hope it goes to one of you!
 
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I concur with the above regarding our use of the UCF Hospital as it will take several years to become a primary teaching hospital for all disciplines. You will have to use other facilities for most of the M3 rotations. We do have access to Advent Health and Orlando Health for FIRE as well as 4th year rotations. We have overwhelming support in much of our admissions process and other areas of the COM from physicians from AH, OH, Nemours, VA, and HCA (AORTA, Interviewing, teaching, volunteering) as vast majority of the OH and AH physicians are not in favor of the position of their leadership in their political stand of their leadership. The administrative leadership of AH did approach us to reconcile just prior to the COVID, as did OH, but no real discussion has occurred because they are appropriately focused on service to their patients until COVID is reduced. We did not leave them and we made it clear that we were ready to work with them (once they got over their own self-induced leadership faux paus). In the early years of the COM I was also in the Registrar Office and was able to set up the M3 rotations that were offered at both AH and OH. Those courses can be rapidly reinstituted once talks occur.

As a result we have built a very strong and effective M3 program which has yielded much higher student feedback ratings that have risen since departing AH and OH. These other institutions treat our students very well and are eager to teach. Unfortunately many of them are over 50 miles from the COM which means that the COM must provide for your accommodations while at those rotations. When assigning the M3 rotations you have an opportunity to request those rotations be in the Orlando area due to family or other hardships. Finally, there is something to be said in training with different systems to make you flexible in your learning process. I feel that this learned flexibility, the FIRE project, and strong STEP scores are major factors in your residency application/interviews as you achieve a successful Match.
Why the distinction between M3 and M4 with respect to access to OH and AH? Does having access mean all M4s who want rotations in Orlando receive them? Thanks!!!
 
What is worthwhile to put in an update letter? I have some new clinical employment (about 200 hours) and other employment (100 hours) since I submitted my primary. I also have a bit more lab research and (60 hours maybe?) no pubs. My review date is coming up so I’m wondering if any of this would help at all?
 
What is worthwhile to put in an update letter? I have some new clinical employment (about 200 hours) and other employment (100 hours) since I submitted my primary. I also have a bit more lab research and (60 hours maybe?) no pubs. My review date is coming up so I’m wondering if any of this would help at all?
my update honestly had less than what you have and I still sent one in before my review date. Think that just telling them about your app and showing interst is better than nothing
 
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my update honestly had less than what you have and I still sent one in before my review date. Think that just telling them about your app and showing interst is better than nothing
This^^^^.

More is better than less, but you work with what you have. If the school is receptive, it never hurts to take the shot. The demonstration of continued interest, and the effort in making the submission, probably means more than any new activity or incremental hours in an existing one.

For most people, these don't move the needle at all, but you have no way to know whether you are right on the border, and whether an update might push you over the line. As a result, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose by going for it.
 
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@REL if I send my update letter tonight will the committee see it if my review date is next Tuesday? I’ve seen you post in the past about how UCF is closed at the end of the year during Christmas/New Year but not during Thanksgiving. Thanks.
 
@REL if I send my update letter tonight will the committee see it if my review date is next Tuesday? I’ve seen you post in the past about how UCF is closed at the end of the year during Christmas/New Year but not during Thanksgiving. Thanks.
All state schools are closed Thur-Fri for Thanksgiving Holidays. Other than that the admissions office and admissions committee will be operational. Some should see it. It is always a good move to email the admissions office that you have added an update to your file.
 
All state schools are closed Thur-Fri for Thanksgiving Holidays. Other than that the admissions office and admissions committee will be operational. Some should see it. It is always a good move to email the admissions office that you have added an update to your file.
I hope this is not too annoying of a question - I've already sent out a couple of updates and many of them I simply uploaded on the application portals (including UCF). Is it "ok" to also send them an email even though it's been a week already? Always a wee scared of coming across as too annoying. Thank you for being super helpful. I think most if not all would agree that you have been really awesome.
 
@REL Do you know when applicants will be informed of their position on the wait list? Thank you for your transparency throughout this process!
 
@REL Do you know when applicants will be informed of their position on the wait list? Thank you for your transparency throughout this process!
I remember from my virtual visit that they said that WL people would be given a rough idea of their position starting in December, with updates every month or so
 
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Me as well, wondering how much shift there will be as more people are added.
From watching this for the past two cycles, I am pretty sure there is no shift, and that you are eventually going to receive an A. They seem to clear the top third every year, with the question being how deep they get into the middle third.

It's not first come, first served. They are stratifying you now based on your score. People will continue to be stratified, but your score isn't going to change, and it places you in the upper third of the WL. That's not going to shift beneath your feet any more than an A will for someone else, or an R for that matter, based on how subsequent people perform. Congratulations!!!!
 
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Middle third with further stratification into the top or bottom half to come at a later date (likely December). FL resident
 
@REL is it possible to explain how somebody’s file would be good enough to receive one of the earliest interviews and then end up on the lower third of the waitlist? Also, I’m kind of wondering why the admissions office sends a monthly update email reminding applicants that they are in the lower third. It just makes them feel bad every month. It’s pretty clear that people in this third don’t get in, so why not just reject post-interview?

I appreciate all of the advice and information about the process you give on here, but I think that it is in poor taste to update applicants the day before Thanksgiving, reminding them that their application isn’t good enough to get into medical school. Especially since you make it clear that 90+ people got higher scores from the committee.
 
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The job of the adcom is certainly really really difficult. Either way you get criticized. "Let us know where we are and be more clear throughout the process" And you get criticized for being too honest and transparent. Then the adcom withholds info, and they get attacked for not being transparent enough. What a hard job.
 
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The job of the adcom is certainly really really difficult. Either way you get criticized. "Let us know where we are and be more clear throughout the process" And you get criticized for being too honest and transparent. Then the adcom withholds info, and they get attacked for not being transparent enough. What a hard job.
I wasn’t “attacking” and I apologize to rel if it comes across like that. Just trying to understand why the lowest third exists if it isn’t used and what’s the purpose of including info that serves no purpose other than making applicants feel bad about themselves?

For example, is it really necessary to know that over sixty people got higher scores? Without knowing why the score was lower than 2/3 of other applicants, this info just leads to self-doubt and anxiety.

Most people don’t have 18 acceptances. For people with 0, worrying about what they will do next year, knowing that their application was worse than 150+ others is just a reminder that they won’t be in med school next fall.
 
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@REL is it possible to explain how somebody’s file would be good enough to receive one of the earliest interviews and then end up on the lower third of the waitlist? Also, I’m kind of wondering why the admissions office sends a monthly update email reminding applicants that they are in the lower third. It just makes them feel bad every month. It’s pretty clear that people in this third don’t get in, so why not just reject post-interview?

I appreciate all of the advice and information about the process you give on here, but I think that it is in poor taste to update applicants the day before Thanksgiving, reminding them that their application isn’t good enough to get into medical school. Especially since you make it clear that 90+ people got higher scores from the committee.

How do you think your interview went?
 
I wasn’t “attacking” and I apologize to rel if it comes across like that. Just trying to understand why the lowest third exists if it isn’t used and what’s the purpose of including info that serves no purpose other than making applicants feel bad about themselves?

For example, is it really necessary to know that over sixty people got higher scores? Without knowing why the score was lower than 2/3 of other applicants, this info just leads to self-doubt and anxiety.

Most people don’t have 18 acceptances. For people with 0, worrying about what they will do next year, knowing that their application was worse than 150+ others is just a reminder that they won’t be in med school next fall.
I am sure there were legitimate reasons as to why the UCF COM adcoms decided to do what they do and many people including myself would prefer to know those info (facts over feelings).

Also, I am certain that the purpose of them letting you know where you stand is to be transparent and fair to applicants not to make you feel bad, and I don't think the adcoms owe you any explanation as to why you are placed there. But I am sure you can conjecture about it yourself since you know your application and how the interview went.

While I totally understand your frustration and anxiety, I see nothing wrong with what the adcom is doing and I really appreciate their transparency.

I just hate seeing how people on this forum abuse REL's generosity in using his own time to be as transparent as possible and abuse him by asking crazy questions and demand insider information that should probably not be disclosed (though I've noticed he doesn't answer some really ridiculous questions).

In all honestly, I find UCF having the most transparent application process and I really really appreciate everything they do. No other schools puts effort and time in doing that to make it better for the applicants.
 
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I do think there is a valid criticism to be made as to why they bother using the lower third designation. Even the bottom half of the middle third doesn't see a significant number of applicants offered a spot so why place people on a portion of the waitlist that has no chance? True transparency would be to reject those applicants and not offer them false hope.
 
I do think there is a valid criticism to be made as to why they bother using the lower third designation. Even the bottom half of the middle third doesn't see a significant number of applicants offered a spot so why place people on a portion of the waitlist that has no chance? True transparency would be to reject those applicants and not offer them false hope.
First of all, according to your logic, every school is evil because they are keeping a WL. But how can they possibly predict how many they need to pull from WL? Again, obviously Waitlisted people were good enough to be placed in the WL but not bad enough for a flat out R. You are assuming that those bottom 1/3 would never get As but what if the adcom rejects all of them but ending up needing to pull from that list in the end? Then what? The point is they don't have 0 chance. Just lower.

Also, if you closely read what the guy wrote, he/she isn't really talking about the validity issue of the bottom 1/3 waitlist pet se. Just complaining that "why" he or she was placed on the bottom portion of the WL despite getting II early on and that he/she doesn't want to hear about it because it hurts their feeling. Not really making a valid argument as to why bottom 3rd is invalid.
 
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Again. Obviously they were good enough to be placed in the WL but not bad enough for a flat out R. You are assuming that those bottom 1/3 would never get As but what if the adcom rejects all of them but ending up needing to pull from that list in the end? Then what? The point is they don't have 0 chance. Just lower.

Also, if you closely read what the guy wrote, he/she isn't really talking about the validity issue of the bottom 1/3 waitlist pet se. Just complaining that "why" he or she was placed on the bottom portion of the WL despite getting II early on and that he/she doesn't want to hear about it because it hurts their feeling. Not really making a valid argument as to why bottom 3rd is invalid.
I'm not "assuming" anything. UCF COM's own communication states: "Based on our recent past we have been able to make offers to most of those who ended up in the top-half of the middle 1/3 and few-to-none to those who end up in the bottom-half of the middle 1/3." That leaves nothing for the bottom third. I am not aware of UCF rejecting anyone during the cycle (although I could be wrong of course) so that leaves the bottom third as a soft R that converts to a full rejection in March/April. They are strung along until the end.

I'm not saying I support the original post (which I did "closely read") in full since I do think the first question asking why they were rejected is not appropriate for a forum like this. I was more specifically expanding on the latter question posed: "It’s pretty clear that people in this third don’t get in, so why not just reject post-interview?"
 
I'm not "assuming" anything. UCF COM's own communication states: "Based on our recent past we have been able to make offers to most of those who ended up in the top-half of the middle 1/3 and few-to-none to those who end up in the bottom-half of the middle 1/3." That leaves nothing for the bottom third. I am not aware of UCF rejecting anyone during the cycle (although I could be wrong of course) so that leaves the bottom third as a soft R that converts to a full rejection in March/April. They are strung along until the end.

I'm not saying I support the original post (which I did "closely read") in full since I do think the first question asking why they were rejected is not appropriate for a forum like this. I was more specifically expanding on the latter question posed: "It’s pretty clear that people in this third don’t get in, so why not just reject post-interview?"
Again.... that's the past. How can they make a prediction as to what will happen in this cycle or the next? What if they eventually need to pull from that bottom portion?? Do the interviews all over again? Not sure how rejection everyone from that list is a reasonable decision for anyone.
 
On another note, Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
 
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Again.... that's the past. How can they make a prediction as to what will happen in this cycle or the next? What if they eventually need to pull from that bottom portion?? Do the interviews all over again? Not sure how rejection everyone from that list is a reasonable decision for anyone.
With that rationale, why do schools reject anyone before the end of interview season? They might as well all string us along indefinitely. They know their metrics and do not pull from the bottom third. Personally, I think it's cruel to place people on that part of the list and not outright reject.
 
With that rationale, why do schools reject anyone before the end of interview season? They might as well all string us along indefinitely. They know their metrics and do not pull from the bottom third. Personally, I think it's cruel to place people on that part of the list and not outright reject.
Those people are rejected because they are clearly not the type of people they are looking for. Every single school keeps a WL. I am not sure what your logic is here.
 
I'm not "assuming" anything. UCF COM's own communication states: "Based on our recent past we have been able to make offers to most of those who ended up in the top-half of the middle 1/3 and few-to-none to those who end up in the bottom-half of the middle 1/3." That leaves nothing for the bottom third. I am not aware of UCF rejecting anyone during the cycle (although I could be wrong of course) so that leaves the bottom third as a soft R that converts to a full rejection in March/April. They are strung along until the end.

I'm not saying I support the original post (which I did "closely read") in full since I do think the first question asking why they were rejected is not appropriate for a forum like this. I was more specifically expanding on the latter question posed: "It’s pretty clear that people in this third don’t get in, so why not just reject post-interview?"
I both agree and disagree with you. What you say about nothing historically being left for the bottom third is entirely true, but exactly how does that constitute being strung along?

Being strung along is being placed on a WL, not being told what your relative position is on the list, and then not hearing anything until June or July, at which point you either receive an R or are forced to withdraw because you are facing a CTE deadline elsewhere. What UCF does is the exact opposite of stringing anyone along.

As to why the school doesn't just reject people, it's pretty clear that's because their adcom is very conservative, and simply does not formally reject anyone they interview until the cycle is over. They are planning for the once every 100 year event where their yield plummets and they need to dip into their bottom third. It's not like we haven't seen any black swan events, in form of natural disasters, pandemics, economic crises, etc., in the past dozen or so years.

Nothing wrong with it, given their level of transparency. Everyone on the WL knows exactly where they stand, and the only real mystery involves the middle third. This is far more than most people on most other WLs can say.
 
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I both agree and disagree with you. What you say about nothing historically being left for the bottom third is entirely true, but exactly how does that constitute being strung along?

Being strung along is being placed on a WL, not being told what your relative position is on the list, and then not hearing anything until June or July, at which point you either receive an R or are forced to withdraw because you are facing a CTE deadline elsewhere. What UCF does is the exact opposite of stringing anyone along.

As to why the school doesn't just reject people, it's pretty clear that's because their adcom is very conservative, and simply does not formally reject anyone they interview until the cycle is over. They are planning for the once every 100 year event where their yield plummets and they need to dip into their bottom third. It's not like we haven't seen any black swan events, in form of natural disasters, pandemics, economic crises, etc., in the past dozen or so years.

Nothing wrong with it, given their level of transparency. Everyone on the WL knows exactly where they stand, and the only real mystery involves the middle third. This is far more than most people on most other WLs can say.
Totally agreed. The schools are not placing anyone on WL because they are evil and just trying to mess us up or something. They do it because it is necessary and practical.

Also, if you are placed on the bottom, just assumed R until you hear back.
 
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I'm not "assuming" anything. UCF COM's own communication states: "Based on our recent past we have been able to make offers to most of those who ended up in the top-half of the middle 1/3 and few-to-none to those who end up in the bottom-half of the middle 1/3." That leaves nothing for the bottom third. I am not aware of UCF rejecting anyone during the cycle (although I could be wrong of course) so that leaves the bottom third as a soft R that converts to a full rejection in March/April. They are strung along until the end.

I'm not saying I support the original post (which I did "closely read") in full since I do think the first question asking why they were rejected is not appropriate for a forum like this. I was more specifically expanding on the latter question posed: "It’s pretty clear that people in this third don’t get in, so why not just reject post-interview?"
Let's dissect each statement carefully. First, we have "offers to most of those who ended up in the top-half of the middle." I think the key words here are "ended up", meaning your hint is to continue working on your app even after submitting, and sending updates.

Picture this situation:

Student gets early II but is placed on lower third. While we cannot say with certainty why, let's imagine it was due to a low MCAT score.

Student is notified they are in bottom third for the 2nd or 3rd time, so they decide to retake the MCAT and see if their chances improve.

Student retakes MCAT, scores much higher than previously. Student is notified they have moved into the middle (or even top) third. Perhaps they even got accepted due to luck, and that the 20 people ahead of them just happened to go elsewhere for their medical education, and didn't decide until the last moment.
I think the key takeaway of the wait list transparency is that ADCOMs want to see progress, not just "I've already submitted my application so cue Jeopardy music". Therefore, your 1st concluding statement "They are strung along until the end" is false on the premise that WL mobility is possible due to a variety of factors, but most likely boils down to personal decisions and luck.

Lastly, I think Clint did a great job addressing this part: "It’s pretty clear that people in this third don’t get in, so why not just reject post-interview?"

but I'll reiterate their take: If top half WL students, either due to luck or circumstances, cannot matriculate to UCF COM, then where do they fill their seats from? They certainly can't fill them with students they rejected after the interview. Can you imagine calling up a student and saying "hey, I know we rejected you a few months ago, but...we had a situation...and there's a spot..." Never in a million years would that happen, because the WL exists exactly for those circumstances.


tl;dr: UCF COM adcoms, you are wonderful people. We truly appreciate your transparency throughout this process, and, you serve as an exemplar of how the admissions process should be run.
 
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Let's dissect each statement carefully. First, we have "offers to most of those who ended up in the top-half of the middle." I think the key words here are "ended up", meaning your hint is to continue working on your app even after submitting, and sending updates.

I think the key takeaway of the wait list transparency is that ADCOMs want to see progress, not just "I've already submitted my application so cue Jeopardy music". Therefore, your 1st concluding statement "They are strung along until the end" is false on the premise that WL mobility is possible due to a variety of factors, but most likely boils down to personal decisions and luck.
I'm sorry, but I really think what you are doing here is providing false hope, at least at UCF. What you are saying might very well be true at schools that do not stratify their WLs at the outset, but that is not the case at UCF. When UCF tells someone they are in the top (or middle) third, that's a done deal, and is not contingent upon continuing to work on an application even after submitting and sending updates.

If this is indeed the case (hopefully, @REL will confirm), then people in the lower tiers have no real opportunity to advance once their applications have been scored post interview. Again, hopefully @REL will confirm, but I am pretty sure he previously said that people have a limited opportunity to maybe receive a call off the WL before someone close to them on the list by sending updates and LOIs, but there is no opportunity to move from one part of the WL to another by doing so, since applications do not go back to the committee to be rescored once a decision is made post interview.
 
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Just to make it clear, I don’t have a problem with ranked waitlists or tiers. It’s more of the fact that the monthly waitlist reminder for tier 3 applicants becomes a reminder of how bad your application must be for it to get ranked so low. Second, it was made quite clear during the required info session multiple times that people in tier 3 don’t get offers. So why not just let the waitlisted person know once and move on. Why remind people a day before Thanksgiving that they probably won’t get into any med school (since I’m guessing if you’re at the bottom third at UCF post interview, you probably won’t get in anywhere).
 
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Just to make it clear, I don’t have a problem with ranked waitlists or tiers. It’s more of the fact that the monthly waitlist reminder for tier 3 applicants becomes a reminder of how bad your application must be for it to get ranked so low. Second, it was made quite clear during the required info session that people in tier 3 don’t get offers. So why not just let the waitlisted person know once and move on.
FWIW, I don't think not being in the top 2/3 of UCF's WL means you have a "bad" application. You had to be in the top 10% or so of their applicant pool to have received an II. As disappointing as it is to be in the bottom of their WL, being in the bottom quarter or so (after taking As into account) of the top 10% does not mean your application sucks.

I honestly do not know where you are getting the idea that being unsuccessful post-II at UCF means "you probably won’t get in anywhere." I know a few people who were in the bottom third of the UCF WL who got into both UF and USF, plus a TON of people who did not receive IIs at UCF who are attending schools with far better rankings. You need to realize that med school admissions really is a crap shoot for everyone other than the studs at the top who end up with 10+ IIs and As.

If this weren't the case, we wouldn't need to apply broadly. We would just be able to pick the few schools we think are a good match, and either we'd get in or we wouldn't. We wouldn't need to waste time or money applying to 20+ schools, because once a few adcoms made a judgment, it would apply across the board.

Beyond that, clearly UCF has a process where they send periodic updates to everyone who interviewed and has not received an A. I really would not take it personally and would not allow myself to be offended. If you feel that strongly and it bothers you that much, you could always pull the trigger yourself and withdraw from the WL, but I wouldn't do that if you still have any interest in the school, just on the 1 in 1,000,000 chance that this is the year they go to the bottom third. Otherwise, just mentally write off UCF and let them send their e-mails while allowing the cycle to play out.

Again, they really did let you know exactly where you stand. You are in a WL tier that historically does not receive offers. They are not hiding this from you, like so many other schools do with so many other applicants. The only thing preventing you from moving on at this point is you.
 
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I think peeps are still confused between historical data vs. Future events. While it is very likely that things will be repeated in similar manner, that does not preclude things being different in the future. If you were running an organization and/or an adcom chair, would you not want to make sure you have a back up plan? What would you suggest then? There is no viable solution other than WL and that WL can be however long the adcoms wish to have.
 
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I think peeps are still confused between historical data vs. Future events. While it is very likely that things will be repeated in similar manner, that does not preclude things being different in the future. If you were running an organization and/or an adcom chair, would you not want to make sure you have a back up plan? What would you suggest then? There is no viable solution other than WL and that WL can be however long the adcoms wish to have.
And THIS^^^^ is why many schools do not reject anyone post-II until the cycle is over.

It is selfish, because they know full well that the vast majority of folks on the WL will never receive a call, and, since they offer no transparency, you have absolutely no way to know whether your WL is a true WL or a silent R. It is totally for their convenience, and, other than the several dozen applicants necessary to meet reasonable needs, it is for nothing other than "in case of emergency break glass" contingencies that never materialize, although anything is theoretically possible.

UCF, OTOH, not only makes liberal use of its WL every year, by design, but they let everyone, as opposed to a select few on a so-called priority WL, know exactly where they stand, right down to the sixth.
 
And THIS^^^^ is why many schools do not reject anyone post-II until the cycle is over.

It is selfish, because they know full well that the vast majority of folks on the WL will never receive a call, and, since they offer no transparency, you have absolutely no way to know whether your WL is a true WL or a silent R. It is totally for their convenience, and, other than the several dozen applicants necessary to meet reasonable needs, it is for nothing other than "in case of emergency break glass" contingencies that never materialize, although anything is theoretically possible.

UCF, OTOH, not only makes liberal use of its WL every year, by design, but they let everyone, as opposed to a select few on a so-called priority WL, know exactly where they stand, right down to the sixth.
I am not sure if selfish is the right word here especially since there are no less comfortable alternatives that could help applicants feel better but still not have major issues with recruiting students to form a class before the start of an academic year.

Adcoms members are humans as well and they have limited resources (time for example). They can't make offer to let's say 100 people for 100 spots and wait and see how many declines and start interviewing again. They might really not be able to fill their class and the while process will be a lot more protracted (and applicants will suffer more). To call then selfish means there should be another option that inconveniences them but still gives you a reasonably similar results and I say there are none other than what they are currently doing.
 
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