2021-2022 Central Florida

[TheKid7Yessir]

How many students are typically in the AORTA pool?

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[Bobo1234]

Hello everyone! For the interview does anyone have any insight about what it's like? Also do they tell you who will be interviewing you or do you just find out on interview day? Thanks y'all !!

It was pretty chill for me. Both of my interviewers were super nice. You don't find out who your interviewer is until you log on.

 

[docMaine]

I have heard that UCF has been able to give scholarships in the past - can anyone tell me roughly how much those have been and if they vary by student? By chance would they offer an OOS a little more, for example, or is it something like "everyone admitted gets offered a flat $1000" just so they can say they offer scholarship? I apologize for asking again since I asked this question a few months ago yet have still not heard what they have historically done (and I know nothing is promised for the future)...just trying to get a feel for whether there is any possible way that COA might end up a little lower. OR, does anyone know if the financial department ever takes another school's offer into account - For example, Boston University is a little more expensive yet is offering a $10K merit aid and deciding between the two.

 

[KnightDoc]

I have heard that UCF has been able to give scholarships in the past - can anyone tell me roughly how much those have been and if they vary by student? By chance would they offer an OOS a little more, for example, or is it something like "everyone admitted gets offered a flat $1000" just so they can say they offer scholarship? I apologize for asking again since I asked this question a few months ago yet have still not heard what they have historically done (and I know nothing is promised for the future)...just trying to get a feel for whether there is any possible way that COA might end up a little lower. OR, does anyone know if the financial department ever takes another school's offer into account - For example, Boston University is a little more expensive yet is offering a $10K merit aid and deciding between the two.

For all of @REL's transparency, UCF has not been very transparent when it comes to this.

My best guess would be that, as he has said, everyone gets something and that, beyond that, like everywhere else, what you are offered probably depends on how much they want you. Most public schools simply do not have the resources to match private school merit offers.

As a new-ish school, I'd be shocked if UCF had the resources to match anyone. Especially since UCF's tuition is on the low side to begin with, both for IS and OOS. BU's tuition is $65,890 and UCF's IS is $29,680 and OOS is $56,554. Given those numbers, what would you expect UCF to take into account?

BU's $10K brings it down to exactly $664 less than UCF OOS before they offer you a penny! My guess would be that UCF's COA will compare favorably with most private schools, unless the other school offers you a significant scholarship. UCF OOS will probably never compare favorably with IS public school COAs.

The search function hasn't been working correctly since at least the weekend, so I cannot find and quote from the posts, but @REL has said in the past, repeatedly, that cost is not the most important thing we should consider when choosing a school. Read into that what you want. To me, it means that UCF is selling an environment, a community, opportunities and an experience, but is not seeking to compete on price. If I have misinterpreted anything, I hope @REL will see this and clarify.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I have heard that UCF has been able to give scholarships in the past - can anyone tell me roughly how much those have been and if they vary by student? By chance would they offer an OOS a little more, for example, or is it something like "everyone admitted gets offered a flat $1000" just so they can say they offer scholarship? I apologize for asking again since I asked this question a few months ago yet have still not heard what they have historically done (and I know nothing is promised for the future)...just trying to get a feel for whether there is any possible way that COA might end up a little lower. OR, does anyone know if the financial department ever takes another school's offer into account - For example, Boston University is a little more expensive yet is offering a $10K merit aid and deciding between the two.

Also have to consider that Boston or any other northeastern city will cost 2x more for living expenses

 

[WhatsUpDoc824]

Got the call!!! My first A

 

[DukeSmith]

Still lower third

 

[TreasureSeeker]

Still lower third
View attachment 346878

When did you get an update? Are you IS?

 

[TreasureSeeker]

Lower half of upper third, hoping I don’t move down in future updates. Super excited for this school

 

[it'skait]

These activities are likely performed in areas where nurses, other med techs, and maybe PA's are predominant. And yes these are "patients" but this is not typically performed where physicians are predominant. If paid it would not be medical volunteering. If physicians were predominant I would likely consider it more likely shadowing based on information in the description. If physicans were not predominant I might consider it more teamwork/leadership, or community voluteering (if not paid) but this would all have to be interpreted based heavily upon the description provided. Drawing blood, taking vitals, and administering treatment can all be accomplished without a physician being present. It is an area that can be interpreted differently by different reviewers.

Hi @REL, is this UCF's definition of clinical experience? Would it follow, then, that scribing would not be considered clinical experience by UCF, but rather physician shadowing? How does the UCF evaluate candidates who have scribing as their primary clinical experience? Thanks!

 

[TheKid7Yessir]

Is the II tracker on the website updated? How many interviews are left to go out?

 

[LuvtoBeADoctor]

Is the II tracker on the website updated? How many interviews are left to go out?

Can you please provide the link to the tracker?

 

[IWannaGo2School]

Can you please provide the link to the tracker?

I believe this is it: M.D. Program Application Process - College of Medicine

 

[REL]

Hi @REL, is this UCF's definition of clinical experience? Would it follow, then, that scribing would not be considered clinical experience by UCF, but rather physician shadowing? How does the UCF evaluate candidates who have scribing as their primary clinical experience? Thanks!

Clinical experiences are most often summed up in the amount of participation and consistency of activities that are performed in medical clinical activities. Essentially medical clinical volunteering is for the purpose of assisting patients and understanding their side of medicine. Shadowing is being around the physicians seeing clinical medicine from the physician perspective.

We desire to see consistent medical volunteering and physician shadowing in an application to demonstrate their understanding and motivation for becoming a physician. Ideally we would find a consistency of participation in clinical activities and shadowing over the course of the most recent years prior to application. As for clinical volunteering we hope to find that an applicant has spent time volunteering in environments where physicians are predominant (clinics, hospitals, etc.) and in the U.S. The goal is to be there to witness the interactions between physicians and patients as much as possible and also to simply volunteer in these places for the good of patients. So most volunteering in a clinical facility will be counted as long as the description ties there time to patients in some tangible way. This shows an interest in medicine and voluntary service to patients in an area strongly associated with physicians. We do not normally count volunteerism outside of the U.S. heavily. The 1-2 week medical trips (medical tourism) are of little value in our review process as they do not benefit our own people or your knowledge of the U.S. medical system. Medical tourism would more likely be evaluated as minimal shadowing, teamwork/leadership, or community service as there are often these components to the trip.

The second major component of clinical service is time spent directly with the physician, ie. shadowing and scribing. It is incumbent upon the applicant to fully explain their relationship in these activities. Shadowing is voluntary while scribing is mostly paid. They would both be considered in the shadowing category as a medical clinical activity. Other clinically related jobs in the hospital such as a medical technician, medical assistant, as well as nursing home/hospice, or EMT activities are questionable clinical activities. The evaluator would likely consider these as community service or teamwork/leadership unless the description provided by the applicant provides enough evidence that there were consistent physician interactions. While EMT is a worthy first responder activity it is not often done in the presence of a physician or in a medical facility. Similarly nursing home/hospice are normally staffed by nurses and other healthcare staff and therefore offer very limited physician/patient interaction.

For the majority of applicants who are actively involved in college education we prefer to see these activities addressed during academic semesters as much as possible to show your time-management skills. If these activities are predominantly conducted during your summers it makes a reviewer question time-management skills. This would be true of those post-college as well where an applicant can show the ability to balance work, family responsibilities, medical interest, and humanism. Finally we fully acknowledge that applicants have different needs and different life-circumstances so we will take all of this into account as an application is reviewed. Based on the total application we will attempt to gain an understanding of the life-responsibilities of each applicant to determine how much free/flexible time they have available and then determine what they did with that time available with regard to displaying the motivations that we desire to find.

Additional thoughts and advice:
- Most programs will not consider volunteering from HS in their evaluation. Certainly it will be noted that you did it for purposes of motivation over time, but it will not normally be a factor in their decision to invite for an interview.
- Scribing is normally paid but is morphing so it is important to describe your involvement with a physician in these activities. Scribing in the presence of a physician and patient is highly valued. Video scribing, if performed live with a physician and patient, also has value. Video shadowing is of some value. Scribing physician notes (ie. transcription) after-the-fact, probably in a distant facility, is of no real value.
- Maintain a consistent and healthy relationship with your institutions Pre-Health Advising Office. Understand that they are often under-staffed and have responsibility to understand and serve more than medical school applicants. Most serve nursing, dental, vet, PA, and sometimes Law students many of which have completely different applicant requirements and timelines.

Additional UCF guidelines and information can be found on our web site at www.med.ucf.edu/admissions. Select Viewbook in the listing to the right, or select the MD Requirements box below and then scroll to the bottom to select Application Feedback to see how we review an application.

 

[REL]

For all of @REL's transparency, UCF has not been very transparent when it comes to this.

My best guess would be that, as he has said, everyone gets something and that, beyond that, like everywhere else, what you are offered probably depends on how much they want you. Most public schools simply do not have the resources to match private school merit offers.

As a new-ish school, I'd be shocked if UCF had the resources to match anyone. Especially since UCF's tuition is on the low side to begin with, both for IS and OOS. BU's tuition is $65,890 and UCF's IS is $29,680 and OOS is $56,554. Given those numbers, what would you expect UCF to take into account?

BU's $10K brings it down to exactly $664 less than UCF OOS before they offer you a penny! My guess would be that UCF's COA will compare favorably with most private schools, unless the other school offers you a significant scholarship. UCF OOS will probably never compare favorably with IS public school COAs.

The search function hasn't been working correctly since at least the weekend, so I cannot find and quote from the posts, but @REL has said in the past, repeatedly, that cost is not the most important thing we should consider when choosing a school. Read into that what you want. To me, it means that UCF is selling an environment, a community, opportunities and an experience, but is not seeking to compete on price. If I have misinterpreted anything, I hope @REL will see this and clarify.

I am pretty sure that I have addressed this in the past. Scholarships and monies are not part of the Admissions process so I do not have all of the information and facts to share. We have a scholarship committee that uses admissions information to determine scholarship awards. They release scholarship information via our MD program Financial Aid Office. To date every matriculant to our program has received some form of four-year scholarship and I know that there is not a simple standard for all; the amounts vary. As noted, because we are a state program non-state residents are required by the state to pay a higher amount, as such I am pretty sure that the offers to non-Floridians is higher because their debt burden is higher. From what I have seen the scholarship committee begins to review accepted applicant files in the February timeframe and will meet often to evaluate and provide offers. In the past I think that the FA Office was instructed to release offers to applicants beginning in the second half of March. I reiterate that this is not my area of expertise but I think that I am in the ballpark on this information.

 

[T_maestro]

Just got waitlisted towards the lower half of the middle third. @REL can you provide some insight on movement going up or down and likelihood of acceptance in this area of the waitlist?

 

[REL]

Just got waitlisted towards the lower half of the middle third. @REL can you provide some insight on movement going up or down and likelihood of acceptance in this area of the waitlist?

All that I can tell you right now is that we did admit some applicants from this area over the last year or two. With the Admissions Committee still adding to the list on a weekly basis and the Feb-April withdrawal season ahead it is still a fluid time and difficult to predict the outcome.

 

[reapplicant2021]

@REL out of curiosity, if an interviewee from a previous cycle gets waitlisted but not accepted and then reapplies again the next cycle, what are the chances of him receiving an interview again, assuming he/she has improved upon his application somewhat?

 

[REL]

@REL out of curiosity, if an interviewee from a previous cycle gets waitlisted but not accepted and then reapplies again the next cycle, what are the chances of him receiving an interview again, assuming he/she has improved upon his application somewhat?

Each year is a new and separate group so there are no guarantees. Reapplicants stand a good chance at getting another interview if they have done a strong job turning weaker areas into strengths. Each year there are several who interviewed one year and did not receive an interview the following year because they did not strengthen their application and show continued motivation. At this point any who interviewed last year that have a strong interest in obtaining an interview again should send an email to the admissions office letting them know. It's also a good idea to add an update via the Attachment section of their UCF secondary app.

 

[International_Leg230]

does UCF require parental information on the FAFSA?

 

[REL]

does UCF require parental information on the FAFSA?

No, and if it is there we will ignore it. Our FA does not use it in their awards process.

 

[TheKid7Yessir]

Are there interview left to give?

 

[Dr.StevieBrule]

Based on the link someone posted earlier, there have only been 201 interviews completed. Is it just me or does that seem really low?

 

[AgitatedSundae73]

For people who got the Second Look email today, was it formatted all wonky for you because for some reason it's just a massive block of random text and I can't view it on any of my devices...does anyone know what the date is for it because I can't read it lol

 

[WhatsUpDoc824]

For people who got the Second Look email today, was it formatted all wonky for you because for some reason it's just a massive block of random text and I can't view it on any of my devices...does anyone know what the date is for it because I can't read it lol

it was weird for me too

 

[Bobo1234]

For people who got the Second Look email today, was it formatted all wonky for you because for some reason it's just a massive block of random text and I can't view it on any of my devices...does anyone know what the date is for it because I can't read it lol

It was formatted weirdly on my computer too. For some reason, when I opened the email on my phone, it looks fine. Second look is on Monday, April 4th 8:30am-5:00pm. I've copied the image I saw on the email in case you would like to refer to it.

 

[REL]

Are there interview left to give?

 

[REL]

Yes, we generally complete interview invitations in the 2nd or 3rd week of February.

 

[KnightDoc]

Yes, we generally complete interview invitations in the 2nd or 3rd week of February.

Thanks! So, as of this morning, the website shows 201 "interviewed to date," which could either refer to completed interviews, which is a less useful metric to visitors to the website, or IIs, in which case it probably hasn't been updated in a while if there are only 3 or 4 weeks left to go.

Any chance you could get them to make the information provided more useful to current applicants by having the tracker refer to IIs, and having the school update it on a real time basis? If not, maybe consider having them remove it altogether, since no information is probably better than inaccurate or stale information. JMHO. Thanks again for all of your valuable contributions to us.

 

[REL]

Thanks! So, as of this morning, the website shows 201 "interviewed to date," which could either refer to completed interviews, which is a less useful metric to visitors to the website, or IIs, in which case it probably hasn't been updated in a while if there are only 3 or 4 weeks left to go.

Any chance you could get them to make the information provided more useful to current applicants by having the tracker refer to IIs, and having the school update it on a real time basis? If not, maybe consider having them remove it altogether, since no information is probably better than inaccurate or stale information. JMHO. Thanks again for all of your valuable contributions to us.

I am in agreement with you. I do believe that it reflects II's but has not been updated.

 

[TheKid7Yessir]

The interview tracker updated to 400. There are probably only 50 left based on MSAR.

 

[globalatworst]

Got the call I am on bottom 1/3 of WL today

 

[DukeSmith]

Got the call I am on bottom 1/3 of WL today

Although I do appreciate UCF’s transparency in the admissions process, I’m not a huge fan of waitlist calls. It is somewhat humiliating and I’m not necessarily sure it serves a purpose. I could see calling if it was to review specific reasons for the WL.

I was also in bottom 1/3. Sorry for the bad news.

 

[REL]

I appreciate your comments regarding our calling of applicants with the Admissions Committee decision. I also appreciate that these calls can be difficult to receive, especially if an applicant does not receive good news. These are the first negative comments regarding this in the history of the program at UCF and it is a practice that I also used for the ~10 years that I was at USF. It is not easy for us to make these calls and these calls are also time consuming. I have done this because I have felt that each applicant deserves to hear this information rather than to receive negative news via an email or a website posting. It is not easy for us to make these calls, and it is an investment in our time to make them. I believe that each person who has interviewed should receive a chance to discuss their status and have a complete understanding of our process and their future possibilities for an acceptance here this year. It also gives applicants the opportunity to discuss how to receive future application feedback if desired. In short we treat it as an open-line for each applicant to reach out as they have future questions. Just because an applicant has not been, or may not be, accepted here it does not mean that we will cease communication. We want to be a partner with each applicant to help them understand this national process and to be a resource as you move forward with decisions you may have regarding your future at other programs whether that be acceptances or not.

The national system can be confusing and some programs do not provide you with all of your options. Unfortunately some programs set very early CTE deadlines in order to get you to unwittingly make selections that favor that program. For example a program should not set a CTE deadline more than 4 weeks prior to the orientation/matriculation date. It has always been my philosophy to ensure that applicants have as much information as possible to make the best decision for themselves. The more an applicant knows the better decision they can make for themselves.
I firmly believe that the care that you receive during the admissions process is an accurate predictor of the care and support you will receive during an intense four years of medical education and eventually residency selection.

 

[deleted1119327]

I appreciate your comments regarding our calling of applicants with the Admissions Committee decision. I also appreciate that these calls can be difficult to receive, especially if an applicant does not receive good news. These are the first negative comments regarding this in the history of the program at UCF and it is a practice that I also used for the ~10 years that I was at USF. It is not easy for us to make these calls and these calls are also time consuming. I have done this because I have felt that each applicant deserves to hear this information rather than to receive negative news via an email or a website posting. It is not easy for us to make these calls, and it is an investment in our time to make them. I believe that each person who has interviewed should receive a chance to discuss their status and have a complete understanding of our process and their future possibilities for an acceptance here this year. It also gives applicants the opportunity to discuss how to receive future application feedback if desired. In short we treat it as an open-line for each applicant to reach out as they have future questions. Just because an applicant has not been, or may not be, accepted here it does not mean that we will cease communication. We want to be a partner with each applicant to help them understand this national process and to be a resource as you move forward with decisions you may have regarding your future at other programs whether that be acceptances or not.

The national system can be confusing and some programs do not provide you with all of your options. Unfortunately some programs set very early CTE deadlines in order to get you to unwittingly make selections that favor that program. For example a program should not set a CTE deadline more than 4 weeks prior to the orientation/matriculation date. It has always been my philosophy to ensure that applicants have as much information as possible to make the best decision for themselves. The more an applicant knows the better decision they can make for themselves.
I firmly believe that the care that you receive during the admissions process is an accurate predictor of the care and support you will receive during an intense four years of medical education and eventually residency selection.

Being crystal clear about the process --> why are you being clear?

Being not clear --> why are you so not clear?

There will always be complainers.

 

[TreasureSeeker]

Should we expect another update on our position soon?

 

[REL]

Should we expect another update on our position soon?

The monthly update is sent out toward the end of each month.

 

[ali4137]

Still waiting for an Interview 🤧
Would it be smart to send like an update letter or really any form of communication or is it better just to wait it out?

 

[KnightDoc]

Still waiting for an Interview 🤧
Would it be smart to send like an update letter or really any form of communication or is it better just to wait it out?

They welcome updates, so it never hurts to let them know you are thinking of them! No guarantees, but no reason not to send them something.

 

[TreasureSeeker]

Hoping for an update tomorrow!

 

[unclepeanutz]

@REL does the school welcome letters of intent?

 

[REL]

@REL does the school welcome letters of intent?

Letters of Intent (to enroll) can be helpful if you are being considered for admission before the admissions committee meets or if you end up on the waitlist and the committee is in your score area making a decision about two to select. (ie, you are in a WL group of 5 who have a final committee score of 60 - a letter of Intent can be used as the tie-breaker). Letters of Interest are not as valuable as a Letter of Intent.

Submitting a Letter of Intent is subject to professionalism standards. That means if you submit a Letter of Intent, get accepted, and then withdraw for another program, it could be discussed with that program. Of course you would already be enrolled in that other program, but it could be reported to them and then they could question your professionalism under that program's student code of professional standards.

 

[deleted1124716]

Got the call I am on bottom 1/3 of WL today

Sorry to hear this. Unless your interview went badly, I think UCF might be doing yield protection here. How did you feel about your interviews?

 

[Manisero]

Recently got accepted! I'm doing my research right now to try and make a good decision. I appreciate all the transparency I am reading here, but I am a bit concerned about the idea of the HCA clinicals from things I've heard here and there. I did read in this thread that both Advent Health and Orlando Health have reached out to the COM to talk about re-establishing connections to get the clinicals with them going again, which is great. But do we know how active the discussions are? Have they stayed in limbo (due to COVID?) or are they moving forward some?

My bottom line question: would it be reasonable to expect that by the time of our third year, the relationships with AH and OH will be restored, or is that something that is in the cards for the more distant future?

Any kind of input about this subject as a whole and how HCA clinicals are currently going would be very appreciated!

 

[KnightDoc]

Recently got accepted! I'm doing my research right now to try and make a good decision. I appreciate all the transparency I am reading here, but I am a bit concerned about the idea of the HCA clinicals from things I've heard here and there. I did read in this thread that both Advent Health and Orlando Health have reached out to the COM to talk about re-establishing connections to get the clinicals with them going again, which is great. But do we know how active the discussions are? Have they stayed in limbo (due to COVID?) or are they moving forward some?

My bottom line question: would it be reasonable to expect that by the time of our third year, the relationships with AH and OH will be restored, or is that something that is in the cards for the more distant future?

Any kind of input about this subject as a whole and how HCA clinicals are currently going would be very appreciated!

As a premed myself, I honestly have no first hand knowledge regarding how important it even is. If it's important to you however, no, it's not reasonable to expect that anything will be restored, unless and until it is restored.

Another issue is home residencies. Right now, UCF has none, although it has a so-called consortium with HCA that runs programs throughout Florida. Presumably that will change over time as the UCF hospital ramps up operations. Maybe @REL could speak to the timeline for that, since that IS something that is reasonable to expect to happen over time. UCF seems to do very well in the match in spite of these obstacles, but not having a full complement of home residencies in a home hospital attached to the school doesn't seem like an advantage to me.

The conditions that led to the break up still exist. HCA still owns and runs UCF's teaching hospital, and it is still a for-profit that competes with the other two systems. I get why certain constituencies, such as educators, students, and, I guess, some folks at OH and AH, would like to see the relationship restored. But, honestly, UCF needs it a lot more than the others do, for the very reason that it's an issue for people like you. UCF's main mission is attracting and educating people like you, not running a non-profit healthcare network that has to compete with one of the largest for-profit systems in the country.

Anything is possible, and I love @REL's optimism, but, from a practical point of view, I can see the relationship never being restored. After all, COVID or no COVID, if it was a priority, how long would it take to make happen? Also, if it was so important to UCF, it would have been a more important factor in choosing a partner than it apparently was.

They broke up pretty damn fast once UCF and HCA made their announcement in 2016, although they gave the school two years to get ready and didn't actually pull the plug until 2018! They could announce they are getting back together at any time, yet they have not done so in the past 3+ years.

Notwithstanding the good intentions of all involved, I just don't see the administrators at the other systems giving this to HCA's partner (UCF) after taking it away. I'd LOOOVE to be wrong here, but I would not make any decisions based on things changing until they actually change.

 

[DukeSmith]

As a premed myself, I honestly have no first hand knowledge regarding how important it even is. If it's important to you however, no, it's not reasonable to expect that anything will be restored, unless and until it is restored.

Another issue is home residencies. Right now, UCF has none, although it has a so-called consortium with HCA that runs programs throughout Florida. Presumably that will change over time as the UCF hospital ramps up operations. Maybe @REL could speak to the timeline for that, since that IS something that is reasonable to expect to happen over time. UCF seems to do very well in the match in spite of these obstacles, but not having a full complement of home residencies in a home hospital attached to the school doesn't seem like an advantage to me.

The conditions that led to the break up still exist. HCA still owns and runs UCF's teaching hospital, and it is still a for-profit that competes with the other two systems. I get why certain constituencies, such as educators, students, and, I guess, some folks at OH and AH, would like to see the relationship restored. But, honestly, UCF needs it a lot more than the others do, for the very reason that it's an issue for people like you. UCF's main mission is attracting and educating people like you, not running a non-profit healthcare network that has to compete with one of the largest for-profit systems in the country.

Anything is possible, and I love @REL's optimism, but, from a practical point of view, I can see the relationship never being restored. After all, COVID or no COVID, if it was a priority, how long would it take to make happen? They broke up pretty damn fast once UCF and HCA made their announcement!

Won’t they have home residency at new hospital

 

[KnightDoc]

Won’t they have home residency at new hospital

Yes, but which programs, and what's the timeline to stand them up?

 

[REL]

Won’t they have home residency at new hospital

Yes, but which programs, and what's the timeline to stand them up?

As a premed myself, I honestly have no first hand knowledge regarding how important it even is. If it's important to you however, no, it's not reasonable to expect that anything will be restored, unless and until it is restored.

Another issue is home residencies. Right now, UCF has none, although it has a so-called consortium with HCA that runs programs throughout Florida. Presumably that will change over time as the UCF hospital ramps up operations. Maybe @REL could speak to the timeline for that, since that IS something that is reasonable to expect to happen over time. UCF seems to do very well in the match in spite of these obstacles, but not having a full complement of home residencies in a home hospital attached to the school doesn't seem like an advantage to me.

The conditions that led to the break up still exist. HCA still owns and runs UCF's teaching hospital, and it is still a for-profit that competes with the other two systems. I get why certain constituencies, such as educators, students, and, I guess, some folks at OH and AH, would like to see the relationship restored. But, honestly, UCF needs it a lot more than the others do, for the very reason that it's an issue for people like you. UCF's main mission is attracting and educating people like you, not running a non-profit healthcare network that has to compete with one of the largest for-profit systems in the country.

Anything is possible, and I love @REL's optimism, but, from a practical point of view, I can see the relationship never being restored. After all, COVID or no COVID, if it was a priority, how long would it take to make happen? Also, if it was so important to UCF, it would have been a more important factor in choosing a partner than it apparently was.

They broke up pretty damn fast once UCF and HCA made their announcement in 2016, although they gave the school two years to get ready and didn't actually pull the plug until 2018! They could announce they are getting back together at any time, yet they have not done so in the past 3+ years.

Notwithstanding the good intentions of all involved, I just don't see the administrators at the other systems giving this to HCA's partner (UCF) after taking it away. I'd LOOOVE to be wrong here, but I would not make any decisions based on things changing until they actually change.

Thank you for asking. These are valid questions each year and I am happy to answer them all. First it is necessary to understand some core realities. The purpose of medical schools is to teach, nurture, and graduate physicians. To do this effectively their students must have access to clinical training sites. All hospitals have the responsibility of taking care of patients. Some hospitals have a dual purpose in taking care of patients and also training future doctors via residency programs in various specialties. Rarely does a medical school outright own and control a hospital so there are affiliation agreements between medical programs and hospitals to train medical students in the clinical facets. Teaching hospitals have specialties whereby they accept medical school graduates to train in their specialty areas. The hospitals benefit in filling these med school graduates in those specialties. Medical schools and teaching hospitals both benefit when medical students can go to teaching hospitals during their medical school training. The medical student gains clinical and patient skills and the teaching hospital gains an insight on students who may be good for their residency programs. It should not be shocking to you that running a medical school and a hospital with different but associated missions is expensive and administratively difficult to do. In most situations medical schools and teaching hospitals create affiliation agreements to accomplish the undergraduate medical education (UGME-medical students) and graduate medical education (GME) medical training. Med schools accomplish UGME, residencies accomplish GME (Consider med schools as the bachelors degree institutions of medicine and residencies are the masters degree phase of medical education). It should not shock you to know that very few teaching hospitals are owned by a med school and not many hospitals own a medical school. GME is not my forte' but I think that the only medical school that actually owns a hospital is UM who turned the old Cedars Children's Hospital into their own hospital. UF and Shands are affiliated, USF and TGH are affiliated, UCF and HCA are affiliated, etc. Most med schools have multiple affiliations. The affiliation agreements comes up for renewal periodically and during those renewal periods there can be some articles in the news that reflect discord --- the discord is most often related to jostling for a better "deal" mostly regarding funding. I lived in Tampa for 18 years and recall the newpapers "divorce" articles between USF and TGH, or USF and Moffitt (these never occurred, but you know the new folks - anything for a story). They wont occur, they need each other for their mission of training UGME and GME students. In all instances it has little to do with the physicians, medical students, and more to do with the administrations. I know the reasons for both OH's and AH's termination of the affiliation agreement with UCF. Their administrations terminated the agreement, vast majority of teaching physicians in those institutions were, and are still, very displeased with their leadership. But what was really lost? The third year of clinical training. The clinicians still support UCF students via the FIRE module, as specialty advisors, interviewers, and 4th year clinical training electives. UCF's leadership was disappointed with the administrator decisions of AH and OH and made it clear that the door was open if they ever changed their mind. I am going to digress into my own interpretation of a story that illustrates the OH, AH, HCA, UCF situation since the announcement of UCF becoming a new med school and the relationships. Then I will come back to the topic.

 

[REL]

Long ago and far away in the early-60's there was a sleepy town in the middle of Florida called Orlando. There was no I-4, I-75, I-95 only two lane roads of 17/92, 50, and Route 1 down the Atlantic coast. O-town was the citrus capital of the state and was known as a snow-bird destination. It was also home to two USAF facilities: Orlando AFB (later USN training center, now a upscale housing area with a small VA clinic presence), and McCoy AFB (now Orlando Intl), Lake Eola, Gator Land, and the Citrus Tower and Spook Hill in the Winter Haven area. There was also a small commuter airport called Herndon at the eastern perimeter of the city. This area was serviced by a small not-for-profit hospital. In the mid 60's there was a guy named Walt who bought several thousand acres of swamp land just south of O-town and the locals all laughed at his aspirations to turn the land into an amusement park. I remember many pictures in the newspaper and reports on one of the 3 channels of the old b&w tv (dont remember if it was ABC, CBS, or NBC). They showed the swamps being cleared of all manner of reptiles and leveled. This guy's vision was the beginning of change to make O-Town into the world-known destination city that is now Orlando. Flash forward about 40 years and you find a greatly changed city. OH has grown, AH has arrived, and the state approves two new MD programs at UCF and FIU.

I decided to omit the story that I alluded to in the previous post. In short, the story was more about decisions made by emotions by AH and OH's need for financial support. OH, a non-profit, has served Orlando for a long time and it operates on a very tight budget. AH a national religious, faith-based, system that is very well monied. UCF is a state university. Like AH, HCA is a national hospital system. UCF was created by our state to become a medical school that would be of note as an example of medical education, health care, and research over the next century, and the anchor tenant of a Medical City. To begin this journey we needed to build a strong educational process and then also begin to create clinical and other medical partnerships to include hospitals and residencies. Just before COVID hit, both AH and OH independently scheduled preliminary discussions to resume our clinical partnerships. Unfortunately they had to postpone those talks because the hospitals and administration are still heavily focused on treating patients who are still symptomatic of COVID. They know that the door is still open for discussion and I do believe that this will get done once this situation is normalized. Once meetings do occur it will not be difficult to resume clinical clerkship courses as many of their physicians are still interacting with our students in other ways. As the COM Admissions/Registrar Director for many of our early years, from the course enrollment and scheduling perspective it is very easy to resume because everything still exists from ~3-years ago from the registrar scheduling perspective.

HCA built the Lake Nona Hospital that is now about 100 beds and can grow to 500 as needed in the next few years. UCF has training and residency affiliations with multiple HCA facilities, Orlando VA, Nemours, and have developed more than 500 UCF residency positions in tandem with those clinical entities. UCF/GME information Graduate Medical Education Program - College of Medicine

I hope that I touched on all of the questions and helped you to understand more about the journey that you are about to begin.

 

[KnightDoc]

@REL -- thanks for the extremely detailed history detailing where we are. One question remains unanswered, perhaps because it is irrelevant, due to the existence of the consortium, or maybe because nothing has yet been done. But I was always under the impression that the Lake Nona Medical Center would be hosting residencies, what we lay pre-meds would refer to as home residencies, where we could network with PDs while doing research and clinical rotations while attending school on-site.

Is this never happening? Or has it not yet been decided? Or will it be happening sometime in the next 4 years?

While the affiliation model you describe might be the norm in Florida, my understanding that most med schools are, in fact, under common ownership with the entities that host their home residencies, with Harvard being the big exception among top programs. Mayo, Hopkins, Penn, Pitt, Chicago, Northwestern, Mt. Sinai, Stanford, UCSF, UCLA, Michigan, NYU, Cornell, Columbia, Jefferson, Cooper, Hackensack, Kaiser, Emory, Duke, etc., etc., etc.. Public, private -- doesn't seem to matter. Florida actually seems to be on an island by itself here! Am I misunderstanding something here?