Cornell Vs Mount Sinai

[Tigueraje]

As per @breakintheroof 's suggestion, I have added my opinions and personal rummaging for information in regards to these two schools.

Currently I am deciding between these two options. I have been accepted to other school's within the Top 20 but due to personal reason I have elected to stay within New York City.

I have what seems to me to be a very specific interests for my medical career, and in order to achieve this I aim to pursue an Internal Medicine residency at one of the Big4, in particular in the Northeast for geographical/familial reasons. This is not an absolute necessity, but would make my long term goals much more attainable, and thus have this as something to work towards during my medical school years.

That being said I am torn between Mount Sinai and Cornell. Both are rather equivalently ranked, financial aid is nearly identical, and school location is a non-issue between these two. The true differences arise when looking at the Match List's. I have read enough to know that Match List's in particular are not good indicators of which school you should attend for a host of reasons. Yet I cannot help but yield to the numbers and factor it into my decision.

I know that to achieve my goals, a medical environment where I feel comfortable and at ease will be more conducive to my success. Being happy is important for personal success. For that reason I have a feeling given my interview day and second-look experience that Mount Sinai, with its more relaxed environment, and liberal arts-y student body would be a more comfortable environment.

With regards to Cornell I have read that while it is P/F (pre-clinical), there is an internal ranking. I am unsure if this takes into account pre-clinical grades, or is a ranking of just third year grades (which nearly all schools do anyway). I have also heard that the student's at Cornell are more specialty oriented or rather more of the gunner type. Again these are just things I have heard, and I could be completely wrong.

As a final point, here is the Match Information data I was referring to in case anyone wants to look into if this is something I should worry about or not:

Cornell (Class Size 100)(Matches into Big4 Internal Medicine)
2015: 8/~25
2014: 6/~25
2013: 3/~25

Mount Sinai (Class Size ~140)(Matches into Big4 Internal Medicine)
2015: 4/~30
2014: 5/~30
2013: 3/~30

I should restate that I understand that a Match List does not offer insight into where students wanted to go or what preferences they had in terms of specialty or location.

Any insights into deciding between these two, given my goals and my current inclination towards the student and school environment at Sinai? Thanks!

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[Tigueraje]

Bump, I have now added my personal opinions and information.

 

[C@lidoc]

I have been accepted to both and am going with another school, but would choose sinai. It has better housing and you can take your exams online.

 

[C@lidoc]

Also, I wouldn't worry about comparing match lists. You don't know what students ranked as their top choices

 

[redpanda]

As per @breakintheroof 's suggestion, I have added my opinions and personal rummaging for information in regards to these two schools.

Currently I am deciding between these two options. I have been accepted to other school's within the Top10 and 20 but due to personal reason I have elected to stay within New York City.

I have what seems to me to be a very specific interests for my medical career, and in order to achieve this I aim to pursue an Internal Medicine residency at one of the Big4, in particular in the Northeast for geographical/familial reasons. This is not an absolute necessity, but would make my long term goals much more attainable, and thus have this as something to work towards during my medical school years.

That being said I am torn between Mount Sinai and Cornell. Both are rather equivalently ranked, financial aid is nearly identical, and school location is a non-issue between these two. The true differences arise when looking at the Match List's. I have read enough to know that Match List's in particular are not good indicators of which school you should attend for a host of reasons. Yet I cannot help but yield to the numbers and factor it into my decision.

I know that to achieve my goals, a medical environment where I feel comfortable and at ease will be more conducive to my success. Being happy is important for personal success. For that reason I have a feeling given my interview day and second-look experience that Mount Sinai, with its more relaxed environment, and liberal arts-y student body would be a more comfortable environment.

With regards to Cornell I have read that while it is P/F (pre-clinical), there is an internal ranking. I am unsure if this takes into account pre-clinical grades, or is a ranking of just third year grades (which nearly all schools do anyway). I have also heard that the student's at Cornell are more specialty oriented or rather more of the gunner type. Again these are just things I have heard, and I could be completely wrong.

As a final point, here is the Match Information data I was referring to in case anyone wants to look into if this is something I should worry about or not:

Cornell (Class Size 100)(Matches into Big4 Internal Medicine)
2015: 8/~25
2014: 6/~25
2013: 3/~25

Mount Sinai (Class Size ~140)(Matches into Big4 Internal Medicine)
2015: 4/~30
2014: 5/~30
2013: 3/~30

I should restate that I understand that a Match List does not offer insight into where students wanted to go or what preferences they had in terms of specialty or location.

Any insights into deciding between these two, given my goals and my current inclination towards the student and school environment at Sinai? Thanks!

It is not a fabulous idea to get set on the "Big 4" or Big-what-ever fancy number of top programs in whatever specialty you end up going into. There may be marginal benefits to being in one of those programs (should you ever get into one) but there are effing fabulous internal medicine residencies that are not TheBrighham/TheMGH/Hopkins/whatever. No one will bat an eyelash on fellowship interviews should you come from place like UMich (gasp!). Also, let me tell you, I found the BWH program to be insufferable on interview day, just saying.

 

[breakintheroof]

As per @breakintheroof 's suggestion, I have added my opinions and personal rummaging for information in regards to these two schools.

I appreciate you taking the time to lay this out--I reached out because I think it helps those responding to have something work with. Particularly in your case where these are relatively similar schools.

Cornell (Class Size 100)(Matches into Big4 Internal Medicine)
2015: 8/~25
2014: 6/~25
2013: 3/~25

Mount Sinai (Class Size ~140)(Matches into Big4 Internal Medicine)
2015: 4/~30
2014: 5/~30
2013: 3/~30

I'm sure you are aware of the many limitations of this analysis (and its aims as redpanda says above), but this at least puts proof in front of your eyes that neither school would limit your IM residency options. You surely knew that already, but I have to admit it is kind of cool to see it like that.

I think that one one other thing that may differ between these schools is the clinical training environment. I did not get to interview at Cornell, but I know that Sinai prides itself on its many teaching hospitals. An underrated plus of their network, in my opinion, is Elmhurst Hospital, the public hospital in Queens, which rivals Bellevue for the diversity of its patient population. Sinai students I met who had rotated there loved it for that. If working with diverse, underserved patient populations is among your future interests, you'd get great exposure at Sinai.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Go to Sinai and don't look back.

Edit: I only said Sinai because you mentioned that it was a more confortable fit for you. I wouldn't base a decision like this on the match statistics that you referred to.

 

[Ismet]

Moving to SSD forum

 

[alpinism]

As per @breakintheroof 's suggestion, I have added my opinions and personal rummaging for information in regards to these two schools.

Currently I am deciding between these two options. I have been accepted to other school's within the Top10 and 20 but due to personal reason I have elected to stay within New York City.

I have what seems to me to be a very specific interests for my medical career, and in order to achieve this I aim to pursue an Internal Medicine residency at one of the Big4, in particular in the Northeast for geographical/familial reasons. This is not an absolute necessity, but would make my long term goals much more attainable, and thus have this as something to work towards during my medical school years.

That being said I am torn between Mount Sinai and Cornell. Both are rather equivalently ranked, financial aid is nearly identical, and school location is a non-issue between these two. The true differences arise when looking at the Match List's. I have read enough to know that Match List's in particular are not good indicators of which school you should attend for a host of reasons. Yet I cannot help but yield to the numbers and factor it into my decision.

I know that to achieve my goals, a medical environment where I feel comfortable and at ease will be more conducive to my success. Being happy is important for personal success. For that reason I have a feeling given my interview day and second-look experience that Mount Sinai, with its more relaxed environment, and liberal arts-y student body would be a more comfortable environment.

With regards to Cornell I have read that while it is P/F (pre-clinical), there is an internal ranking. I am unsure if this takes into account pre-clinical grades, or is a ranking of just third year grades (which nearly all schools do anyway). I have also heard that the student's at Cornell are more specialty oriented or rather more of the gunner type. Again these are just things I have heard, and I could be completely wrong.

As a final point, here is the Match Information data I was referring to in case anyone wants to look into if this is something I should worry about or not:

Cornell (Class Size 100)(Matches into Big4 Internal Medicine)
2015: 8/~25
2014: 6/~25
2013: 3/~25

Mount Sinai (Class Size ~140)(Matches into Big4 Internal Medicine)
2015: 4/~30
2014: 5/~30
2013: 3/~30

I should restate that I understand that a Match List does not offer insight into where students wanted to go or what preferences they had in terms of specialty or location.

Any insights into deciding between these two, given my goals and my current inclination towards the student and school environment at Sinai? Thanks!

Keep in mind: where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

Cornell is a great school, but its students are notorious for being very intense.

We have a few residents that went to school there, they all say the same thing.

 

[Psai]

Keep in mind: where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

Cornell is a great school, but its students are notorious for being very intense.

We have a few residents that went to school there, they all say the same thing.

Total gunners. It was the only school where I saw students going to class in their white coats too

btw op, i think you should go to sinai

 

[samsunimomo]

Total gunners. It was the only school where I saw students going to class in their white coats too

I saw this at Cornell too, interestingly. One of the female students leading our tour group rolled her eyes at another student and asked out loud, "why are you wearing your white coat in front of the interviewees?"

 

[Tigueraje]

That is the exact environment I am trying to avoid. On my interview day I did seee hints of arrogance among the few students with whom I interacted.

Any ideas as to why this is the case?

Sinai students on the whole seemed rather down to earth, low-key and invested in their passions, which often had a social change component.

 

[Greenberg702]

Definitely agree with everything that's been said. I LOVED the atmosphere and students at Sinai and thought Cornell was very stiff when I interviewed. Sinai matches extremely well into internal medicine and won't inhibit you for the big 4 whatsoever. This year's match list is a little funky as well because tons of our AOA students chose to stay (for IM as well as other specialties) even though they could have gone Big 4 or Columbia (these people were primarily GI oriented, as Sinai is fantastic for GI).

 

[bluejay456]

Will likely matriculate Sinai so I'm a little biased but I agree with what everyone said above about Sinai being a very relaxed place that also provides an amazing clinical environment. Also, some of the intangibles that rankings don't really touch upon such as the recent expansion of clinical sites or partnership with google/apple are so amazinng. To me it shows that Sinai is all about doing what they want to do because they know jts going to be great for their students, but to shoot up the rankings.

For my own personal reasons, where can I find the Sinai match list?

 

[Juldarus]

Will likely matriculate Sinai so I'm a little biased but I agree with what everyone said above about Sinai being a very relaxed place that also provides an amazing clinical environment. Also, some of the intangibles that rankings don't really touch upon such as the recent expansion of clinical sites or partnership with google/apple are so amazinng. To me it shows that Sinai is all about doing what they want to do because they know jts going to be great for their students, but to shoot up the rankings.

For my own personal reasons, where can I find the Sinai match list?

Post #145 on this page http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/match-lists-2015.1126577/page-3

I really loved Sinai, it's a shame my aid package was not too generous. Expected family contribution was like 12K. I have no income and my parents make less than 45K a year. Would've had to go all-out with Staffords

 

[hellanutella]

First off: congrats on your acceptances!

Second off: Just to counterbalance the gunner anecdotes (but not to deny anyone's claims) I had nothing but positive experiences with the Cornell students I met. My host and their colleagues were wonderfully informative and went to great lengths to make me feel welcome. They bemoaned the fact that Cornell didn't "sell itself" as well as other schools during their interviews. In contrast, some of the Sinai students I stayed with – while awesome folks – seemed to be rather stressed. I don't know if this was because I was interviewing right after Cornell had finished an exam while Sinai was gearing up for one, but I loved both schools and found many aspects about them (location, cost, and grading format aside) to be strikingly similar.

Third off: If I go by that awesome MSPE evaluation paper going around, both Sinai and Cornell report a ranking for their students (though I'm going to assume it's only based off clinical grades, as I was told at interviews that both schools had unranked P/F preclinicals). If you're curious, Sinai ranks into quartiles while Cornell divides the class into top 33%, 28%, 24%, and 15%. So they're effectively the same. 😉

Here's an abbreviated list of my personal pros/cons for each school. Some aspects I find a positive you may find a negative and vice versa.

Cornell:
Pros: 1.5 year preclinical, class appeared more diverse in terms of age/experiences than Sinai, affiliation with the Tri-I network for research, access to Hospital for Special Surgery and a myriad of other sites, felt more research-centric than Sinai (likely because it has more biomed engineering and bench research connections), built-in scholarly project, $1 bagels in the Belfer building?!?
Cons: '19 will only be the second class to go through the new preclinical, Olin leaves a bit to be desired (despite it only being a 1 year stay), nearest subway station is a bit of a trek.

Sinai:
Pros: FlexTime!, Aron Hall seemed like an excellent housing setup, access to Continuum healthcare system (St. Luke's, Beth Israel, NY Eye & Ear, etc.), ability to take exams at home, quirky Nexus electives, they have special mugs which get them free, unlimited coffee?!?

In our group Q&A, Dean Parkas explicitly stated that Sinai wanted to focus more of its efforts on primary care/urban health. I don't feel like this focus will take anything away from their research program, but if primary care is something you're looking into Sinai may be better poised for this interest than speciality-heavy Cornell.

Cons: 2-year preclinical, student body was very young (and will presumably only grow younger with the ~70-student FlexMed cohort in '16), there may be some "growing pains" concerning the introduction of new clinical sites.

Again, I don't think you can go wrong either way. If you have a gut feeling that Sinai would be the best possible fit for you and you loved your time at second look, then act on it! 🙂

 

[mistoffelees]

I can confirm that we rank into quartiles on the Sinai MSPE. Not based on preclinicals (since it's just P/F anyway - there is absolutely no "hidden" preclinical ranking), but a combination of clinical grades, Step 1, and extracurricular activities/research. I think the biggest chunk is certainly clinical grades, and then the other parts may pull you to a higher quartile if you're on the brink.

Also, I did a few electives this year at the new hospitals we have - they're amazing and they're actually used to having med students around because they all used to be affiliated with med schools (Beth Israel - Einstein, St. Lukes/Roosevelt - Columbia).

Agree with the specialty focus with Cornell - it was also what I felt when I interviewed at Cornell 4 years ago. Personally, I think Sinai is very strong in community/urban health, internal medicine in general, geriatrics/pall care, GI surgery, liver transplant, and strong in neurology, anesthesia, +/- emergency medicine.

 

[RedPhys]

Agree with the specialty focus with Cornell - it was also what I felt when I interviewed at Cornell 4 years ago.

Not sure if it means anything (or if I'm completely misinterpreting the point of it), but I imagine it's part of what they're after, given their whole Area of Concentration program, where you are sort of given free reign to design your own fourth year (I imagine, with the intent that you have a specialty in mind to best prepare yourself for). Also, my tour guide at Cornell loved talking about the pre-Op program for those who know they're interested in surgery early on to start getting time in the OR.

 

[look595]

Something else I want to add is that the Mount Sinai-Continuum Health merger/acquisition has really opened up where you can train during your time at Sinai. I would say the diversity and availability of clinical training opportunities at Sinai far surpasses that at WCMC.

 

[Greenberg702]

Not sure if it means anything (or if I'm completely misinterpreting the point of it), but I imagine it's part of what they're after, given their whole Area of Concentration program, where you are sort of given free reign to design your own fourth year (I imagine, with the intent that you have a specialty in mind to best prepare yourself for). Also, my tour guide at Cornell loved talking about the pre-Op program for those who know they're interested in surgery early on to start getting time in the OR.

There's something very similar at Sinai as well. Students who are interested in surgery early on can scrub in on liver transplant procurement surgeries as well as recipient surgeries. Cardiothoracic surgery teams also allow beginning medical students to scrub in on their cases (super, super cool). If you're interested in surgery here you will also have tons of opportunities available to you.

 

[nemo123]

Okay so... I think I need to chime in and debunk a couple myths here since I'm a student at Cornell.

For your concerns about internal rankings, pre-clinical grades are ONLY used for tie breakers when deciding AOA and even then it's a very miniscule factor among other things like involvement in the Cornell community. In terms of what goes in your deans' letter and what is released outside, only your third year grades count (like at every other med school in the country besides Yale), and that is the ONLY basis on which your final ranking is determined. Also, as for your concerns about Cornell students being more specialty oriented, most students at Top 20 schools will be more specialty and research oriented. It is not Cornell specific.

In terms of your concerns about the students being gunner, my classmates are also some of the most nurturing, warm, and collegial people that I've met (not to mention very talented-- one person in our class swam in 2 Olympics and another one was a competitive figure skater who competed at Worlds, and it's been very humbling to be classmates with them).

OP, go where you think you will be happy. To be honest, I didn't really like Cornell initially after my interview there during my application cycle. Like @hellanutella said, Cornell doesn't really sell itself on interview day, but I gave it another shot and went to second look, got a better feel of it, and ended up matriculating. I've really loved it here so far. If I had gone with my initial feelings, I would have never come here. Try to attend second look here also in a couple weeks so that you can get a better feel for the school. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

Something else I want to add is that the Mount Sinai-Continuum Health merger/acquisition has really opened up where you can train during your time at Sinai. I would say the diversity and availability of clinical training opportunities at Sinai far surpasses that at WCMC.

I have heard about the merger recently, and it will definitely be a big plus in terms of clinical training at Sinai. That being said, Cornell's main hospital is NYP merged with Columbia's NYP campus (not to mention all of our affiliate sites in the Bronx and Queens). On top of that, we have affiliations with Sloan Kettering and HSS. These two institutions are invaluable for our training. A large chunk of my class has been assigned preceptors with doctors at Sloan and at HSS (not to mention that it is very easy to get involved in research at both institutions). Personally speaking, my preceptor last semester was at Sloan, and I have to say that it was the most eye opening experience to learn from some of the top cancer doctors in the country and to see the quality and level of care that you can get at Sloan.

We also have the option of rotating at Sloan for our medicine and surgery rotations during our third year. If you're interested in oncology or rheumatology/ortho, Cornell has a lot of opportunities available to pursue those fields.

I saw this at Cornell too, interestingly. One of the female students leading our tour group rolled her eyes at another student and asked out loud, "why are you wearing your white coat in front of the interviewees?"

I think I know who might have been your tour guide, and knowing her she was most likely being sarcastic. Just adding onto what I've said, we get clinical experience very early on in first year, and the first year wearing a white coat probably was going to preceptorship, meeting a patient (we get assigned 2-3 patients through the LEAP program here where you follow them longitudinally over your entire 4 years here), or shadowing.

 

[Tigueraje]

First of all, I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to chime in on my question. Having just a few more days until having to make a final decision, I am definitely leaning towards Sinai. That being said, Weill Cornell has their revisit event this weekend, and I will be in attendance. I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on what I should be looking for specifically.

Additionally is there any significant difference between a class size of 140 compared to one of 100?

 

[Psai]

First of all, I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to chime in on my question. Having just a few more days until having to make a final decision, I am definitely leaning towards Sinai. That being said, Weill Cornell has their revisit event this weekend, and I will be in attendance. I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on what I should be looking for specifically.

Additionally is there any significant difference between a class size of 140 compared to one of 100?

yes it's about 40

 

[ColDocUSA]

First of all, I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to chime in on my question. Having just a few more days until having to make a final decision, I am definitely leaning towards Sinai. That being said, Weill Cornell has their revisit event this weekend, and I will be in attendance. I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on what I should be looking for specifically.

Additionally is there any significant difference between a class size of 140 compared to one of 100?

What were your thoughts after attending revisit? Did it make your decision any easier?