FTF's Worst Idea Yet (Game Over)

[Crayola227]

I kinda still want countdown because of the gap between games though.

I second this!!

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[Animal Midwife]

Lol actually I thought I was a panic busser, but probably not, the feeling of panic is probably normal when a packmate is up.

To be fair I probably trend towards trying to stay off a wolf vote if I can when I wolf. People on a wolf wagon get cleared but they also get scrutiny. In some ways it's easier to stay off, and if you've cast an early believable vote elsewhere you often can defend sticking to it and not switching. You won't get cred, but you also won't be linked to your partner by vote that way.

I think the above only works well if wolves diversify tho, with some on or off the bus, which we did in Bioschock to mess with VCA. Having all wolves on any one vote makes me extremely nervous and I try to avoid, but at some point it becomes impossible not to do towards end game.

As a wolf trying to mess with VCA, the thing I focus on most, is making sure that votes cast and vote movements, if any, look as "real" and justified by "village" motives as much as possible. I loathe making vote changes meant to preserve a packmate or to bus them because it's those changes that get looked at most and will out more than the wolf in danger. If you can manage a believable reason to vote a villager and stick with it, so much the better. But you have to work to justify whatever you do.

I'm starting to think that it's the way that a pack manages a wolf in danger that does the most to either help or hurt the pack.

I've definitely seen panic bussing, and the only way to prevent it as a pack is probably to already have discussed the scenarios ahead of time.

What traits does a panic bus have again exactly?

A wolf sees their partner on the board with a few votes early on (can be as little as no votes with just some shade though) and just decides their partner's going to die. They vote for them without asking whether the partner would want that or otherwise warning the partner it's going to occur. They almost always stay on the bus for the duration of the cycle regardless of outcome.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Idk. This game is a weird anomaly to me. Can't be certain on anything other than end of day votes

I guess. I'm still going to try to learn from the strategies seen here though lest a similar situation comes up in the future.

 

[Animal Midwife]

I like it, but I'm a masochist and sometimes the things that hurt me and give me pleasure are best foisted on me. Consensual non-consent, if you will.

Every time I see my name on a PM next to wolf my heart drops into my stomach and I say, "****, why?" And I briefly think about if there's any way to get out of it, then I'm like, I'm stuck because the mods and the team, then I'm like I have to make the best of it. And I will and I have a blast but I can only handle it because it's statistically sandwiched between long village reprieves.

It's a rarity and the rarity helps make it enjoyable.

I can vibe with that.

 

[Animal Midwife]

GG though since I didn't say it already. I love active scum team so much.

 

[JustPaws]

The thing is it's only bussing to me if Pawsy kept that vote on zenges all the way to yeet close

She would have if exactly dubz didn't extend. It's very wild to think about.

I absolutely was going to stay on unless something obvious happened. Zenge asked me if I was going to unvote and i said i didn't have a better case to make so i wasnt

 

[Viscernable]

Why oh why did you not want us to vote her lol

There wasn’t a point to it. We weren’t getting to D5 even if there was a cycle skip the next day. If it got to D4 we could yeet her then. Might as well try to vote out people who could kill in the meantime

 

[Lawpy]

I absolutely was going to stay on unless something obvious happened. Zenge asked me if I was going to unvote and i said i didn't have a better case to make so i wasnt

Pawsy why

 

[JustPaws]

Pawsy why

Because I need a good reason to get off a bus

 

[Lawpy]

Because I need a good reason to get off a bus

Well i'm just glad you ultimately switched away from zenges

my nightmare is AM bussing

 

[Animal Midwife]

Well i'm just glad you ultimately switched away from zenges

my nightmare is AM bussing

That would be absolutely evil.

 

[Crayola227]

I hope one day AM is cornered and feels she's gotta bus and deep wolf, like with genny, but with her as Visc not genny. Like the whole wolf team is up for vote D1.

 

[Lawpy]

I hope one day AM is cornered and feels she's gotta bus and deep wolf, like with genny, but with her as Visc not genny. Like the whole wolf team is up for vote D1.

Noooo Cray why? Bussing and deepwolfing AM is a nightmare!!!!

 

[Animal Midwife]

I hope one day AM is cornered and feels she's gotta bus and deep wolf, like with genny, but with her as Visc not genny. Like the whole wolf team is up for vote D1.

I'll shoot myself in wolfchat before I let this happen.

 

[supershorty]

I'll shoot myself in wolfchat before I let this happen.

Didn't you previously try to shoot yourself in wolfchat without being anywhere NEAR this situation?

 

[Crayola227]

You can't ignore VCA ever. You just have to ensure you're reading it right. If a player plays to either of the extremes, it has to be adjusted for that. (Such as, a known powerwolf strongly driving a wolf wagon during endgame is, yet living to the next cycle anyway, should never be in the POE. Vice versa would apply for any known bussers.)

I was aware Paws bussed, but not to this degree.

That wasn't happening because you weren't on the board + April didn't have you in her POE. She 100% was going to hit scum if she shot anyone but me.

My issue is that to me it just doesn't seem like a meta issue, it seems like bussing is driven more by external forces not under a player's personal control, and as a reaction to game conditions reflects less their preference for certain choices and more how they make the best of a less than optimal situation.

Meta is most useful where multiple sound game decision options exist, and each may have their own point of good strategy for employing. In that case, which choice a player makes will actually be more out of personality, habit, personal beliefs, and so it will be more individual to them and possibly more telling in a variety of game situations.

Except for wolf plots to become very deep wolf from the beginning unprompted by sus to vote out a fellow wolf, it seems most busses have a motivation that can be gleaned more from the situation the wolves find themselves in than by an individual wolf's preference.

My belief that it's in anyone's meta to bus and deep wolf under the right circumstances, is why I never get caught up in that sort of analysis where I dismiss the fact that bussing may have been the only real sound strategic choice despite anyone's personal preferences or meta. It's less "does this player like to bus" and more "were conditions present that would make a bus a sound strategic choice, if not the best choice?"

*That* analysis definitely would have concluded that Paws may have bussed Zenge knowing he would die. It would have concluded that some of the votes on genny D1 that were cw to genny, bussed her for self prez. It has little to do with how much any of these players like to bus or have bussed in the past, to recognize these possible busses.

At some point then, it's less how much do these players like bussing, and more are they capable of the kind of strategic thinking to recognize when a bus is needed, and do they have the skills to carry it off and the cool to see it through?

This is the only kind of analysis that can prevent one from being blindsided as well by smart wolves that hate bussing, like Dubz or AM. Because these are players that can do all of the above, preferences or meta aside for not bussing. And despite their hate, if a bus is the most sound strategic choice, would they really not to resort to it?

Does it complicate analysis and VCA to think this way? Sure it does. But it's the only thing that makes any sense to me. To act like a bus is outside someone's meta when it seems toe most busses are driven by necessity of outside forces, makes little sense to me.

That's the whole thing too. People act outside their meta when the pressure is on and the chips are down and conditions are right for it. That pressure happens a lot when you're trying to save a pack which changes the whole dynamic of play, in fact it's this change in dynamic at the very heart of the whole game and identifying affiliation.

Basically, there's no way to play where wolfing doesn't make you have to act outside your village meta. But also, those pressures can also push you outside your wolf meta as well.

The player that doesn't ever act outside their wolf meta when game strategy calls for it, is severely limiting their play.

I think we've been shown time and time again, bussing is so powerful a tool that rigidly excluding it from one's arsenal makes no sense. And as a villager assessing other players, it makes little sense to systemically decide someone didn't resort to such a powerful tool when it was called for.

For the record, you're not going to see me bus to deep wolf just to make the game easier. I'm always in it to power wolf. But if the game conditions demand it, I will bus under pressure if that's a sound move. So should anyone.

 

[Crayola227]

Noooo Cray why? Bussing and deepwolfing AM is a nightmare!!!!

No, it's the dream.

 

[Lawpy]

No, it's the dream.

Do i get to sub into a 3P spot in your dream

 

[WildZoo]

No, I knew it was mechanically over after that. I know you love 3p as much as I do. I'm only sad I never got a lover.

Uh huh except a little birdie told me that SOMEONE had to be talked down from killing me n2

 

[WildZoo]

Oh I was also terrified about that. AM, WZ, and I also lost as wolves one time when we left the third-party alive

I still count that as a win tbh

 

[WildZoo]

I have no idea in the world how you guys read Paws so village. The manipulation twisting and lies were so blatant and I pointed it out. Was it VCA?

Don't ever ignore malignant on thread manipulation twisting and lies because of VCA, or, ignore VCA when you see the manipulation twisting and lies, and you'll never lose to a deep wolf or a wolf busser or convert ever again.

I swear to God if I purposefully didn't even look at vote tallies EVER (and admittedly there was a time I didn't) and only focused on posts, I think my reads would be better. At this point it feels like all looking at tallies or VCA seems to do is clear wolves wrongly.

Well it doesn't always look so much like twisting when you don't know it's a lie. If that makes sense. Like, from your perspective, because you know you're village, yes, it looks like that. But from a perspective that doesn't have that info it can be harder to catch. Not impossible, but harder.

 

[WildZoo]

I like it, but I'm a masochist and sometimes the things that hurt me and give me pleasure are best foisted on me. Consensual non-consent, if you will.

Every time I see my name on a PM next to wolf my heart drops into my stomach and I say, "****, why?" And I briefly think about if there's any way to get out of it, then I'm like, I'm stuck because the mods and the team, then I'm like I have to make the best of it. And I will and I have a blast but I can only handle it because it's statistically sandwiched between long village reprieves.

It's a rarity and the rarity helps make it enjoyable.

I feel this in my soul. I love wolfing but I am honestly unsure if I would pick it unless it had been a long gap between outings. Sometimes I just want to be a vanilla bean, or as close to it as I can get.

 

[WildZoo]

And despite their hate, if a bus is the most sound strategic choice, would they really not to resort to it?

Historically the answer to this in my case is no, because I'm stubborn to the point of stupidity

 

[Dr. ForgotToFlush]

I wish I had picked up on this strategy sooner

I wonder if it would have been a joint win if you were part of the cult 🤔

nope
cultrod strips people of their win conditions

 

[WildZoo]

Does a most sound strategic choice even really exist? Can't any choice be strategically sound if you try hard and believe in yourself? I don't consider my refusal to bus a sign of inflexibility - it simply means I have to be flexible in other ways. And it works because no one, except maybe AM, actually believes I'll stick to it like I say I will

RIP my wolf game if I ever become a better villager though

 

[Dr. ForgotToFlush]

So the four deaths N1 was due to the 1/13 chance of chaos targeting Bob and Bob dying from the protection 😭

This game was so fun. Love the deeply stupid roles. Some of the ones that made me laugh the hardest were the “odd-day silenced even-day silenced” modifiers 💀

i was surprised nobody picked up on this after the dice rolls got published from april

 

[Viscernable]

i was surprised nobody picked up on this after the dice rolls got published from april

What is that lol

 

[Viscernable]

Please do not underestimate my obliviousness

 

[Dr. ForgotToFlush]

What is that lol

the first roll was who chaos would target
the second would be if the vig would activate or not

april's role says all dice rolls are public but chaos was the only real random choice one in the setup

 

[WildZoo]

Please do not underestimate my obliviousness

I'm also confused

 

[Dr. ForgotToFlush]

View attachment 335361
Night 1 flavour: I overslept. Playing Minecraft until 5 and then needing to wake up at 9 is not fun.

Chaostrodon has died. They were:
Compulsive Blind Bodyguard Faith Vigilante: Each night you will randomly, compulsively target someone with a bodyguard action. You will target that same person with a vigilante action that has a 50% chance of working. You will die instead of your target if they were to be killed that night. Aligned with town.

Ms Procrastinator has died. They were:
Tracker Miller: Every night you may target one person and you will learn who they targeted that night. You appear as Mafia to Cops that inspect you. Aligned with town.

genny has died. They were:
Hated Werewolf Hater: Werewolf Factional Kill + Communication. Once per night, you may target player at night to make them Hated for the next day, where they will take one less vote to be hammered. Aligned with the Werewolves.

BobLoblaw78 has die. They were:
Criphound: Every night you may target one person. You will be told if they possess a negative utility role, or otherwise. If you are protected by any other role in the game, you will automatically die. Aligned with Town.

^

 

[Viscernable]

Aprilthearab has died. They were:

Desperado Dice Publicist: All dice rolls are publicly broadcasted. Once per game, you may publicly target someone at day. If they are not town, they will die. If they are town, you die in their place. Aligned with Town.

YOU MAY NOW RESUME

But I don’t see any dice rolls here?

 

[Viscernable]

^

Oh I missed those... but I would not have realized that roll 1 = chaos’s target and player 2 = Bob

 

[Dr. ForgotToFlush]

It is Now Night 1!

Send me actions/idles/otherwise before 10 AM EST so I can start resolving them before day start. Day 2 starts at 11 AM EST

@Chaostrodon
@Animal Midwife
@BobLoblaw78
@PippyPony
@Ms Procrastinator
@Zenge142
@WildZoo
@sunshinefl
@Crayola227
@Viscernable
@Aprilthearab
@genny
@JustPaws

removing chaos, bob becomes player number 2

 

[alissa14]

I second this!!

I am also down for this!!!

 

[Crayola227]

It's actually very anti-village to holster before endgame. Someone else ran the numbers on it on another site, but village is statically more likely to lose with scum-given immunity + village being deprived of a gamesolving tool. It's no different than if a seer holstered for fear of a godfather existing.

For the record, that's how much I respect sound WW theory that I was doing my best attempt to try to follow what you have said about the use of vig in England. I was trying to heed your words on the subject rather than stay holstered.

Lol I blame you.

Had nothing to do with becomingna hypocrite when the option for violence presented itself.

 

[Dr. ForgotToFlush]

more random flush notes
i cannot remember the last time someone picked the Modkilled for No Reason Townie

also I am glad that some of you liked the dumb jokes I used for the role names

 

[JustPaws]

Historically the answer to this in my case is no, because I'm stubborn to the point of stupidity

Case in point, WZ was outed? And I told AM to shot her for cred in afterparty and they wouldn't hahah. I think she finally did but it was well after the moment that would have gotten the most cred

 

[WildZoo]

Case in point, WZ was outed? And I told AM to shot her for cred in afterparty and they wouldn't hahah. I think she finally did but it was well after the moment that would have gotten the most cred

Hey now that seer info was very sketchy!

 

[JustPaws]

Hey now that seer info was very sketchy!

Pretty sure wolf chat was me trying to convince AM to shot you and you saying "hey now I can probably still get out of this" lol

 

[WildZoo]

Pretty sure wolf chat was me trying to convince AM to shot you and you saying "hey now I can probably still get out of this" lol

The yeet armor must be respected!!

 

[Animal Midwife]

Case in point, WZ was outed? And I told AM to shot her for cred in afterparty and they wouldn't hahah. I think she finally did but it was well after the moment that would have gotten the most cred

Okay, but end the end I didn't have to actually kill her! So it was worth it!

 

[PippyPony]

007 go bang bang

 

[sunshinefl]

Afterword:

Balance was iffy but workable thanks to Zenge's role removing itself. I mentioned this in deadchat: In multiball games, town needs a lot to go right for Town to win, and almost everything did, but the past day phase was the final insurmountable hurdle.
Starting ratio was 8v2v2v1v1v1, very close to the upper limit of what I'd deem acceptable and does skew towards being anti-town, so credit to you guys for making this as competitive as it was.
This game ended incredibly quickly but sometimes IDEA games just do that.

There was a major error with sunshine's role. Since it was compulsive it should have activated Night 1, resulting in something like Sunshine and Chaos dying. However I completely blanked on that and opted for it to activate N2 instead. Since it had profound effects on who died and who lived, I couldn't think of a better way to correct it at the time.

Thanks for playing!
If there's time I'll try to host Countdown for realsies before August, otherwise we'll all have to wait till next year.

~

FTF

Wtf? You never told me mine was supposed to be/going to be night 1

Why would shooting say me have made that happen? I don't understand. You're acting like you were the only villager and she would def have hit scum otherwise.

Lol exactly.

Yes and sadly Zenge's introduction into wolfing involved a ton of analysis of how best to use the imminent deaths of wolves to best advantage.

Zenge has this one posting habit that drives me nuts (I call it stretching, but also maybe it's a theory of mind issue, he sometimes proposes.convoluted genius things that he might think of, but the person he's theorizing may have done it wouldn't, it's like projection that way) but he is learning to dumb down the shade he's casting for the intelligence level of the shadee (I'm kidding a little) and starting to tell more believeable lies.

He pinged me early game but admittedly as it went on I moved him less scummy.

He's likely only to get more dangerous as a wolf.

Zenge pinged me but for the same reasons he always does and ends up being village, so I tried to course correct that habit and read him as mixed to okay. (Between neutral and village). So back to not giving zenge the benefit of doubt I go.

You can't ignore VCA ever. You just have to ensure you're reading it right. If a player plays to either of the extremes, it has to be adjusted for that. (Such as, a known powerwolf strongly driving a wolf wagon during endgame is, yet living to the next cycle anyway, should never be in the POE. Vice versa would apply for any known bussers.)

I was aware Paws bussed, but not to this degree.

That wasn't happening because you weren't on the board + April didn't have you in her POE. She 100% was going to hit scum if she shot anyone but me.

Well April asked me if you were my top suspect and I said yes. She chose you because she believed in my villageness and vice versa, and I didn’t believe in yours because you aligned yourself with scum instead of us. So basically it’s your fault she chose you and died.

 

[WildZoo]

Wtf? You never told me mine was supposed to be/going to be night 1

Lol exactly.

Zenge pinged me but for the same reasons he always does and ends up being village, so I tried to course correct that habit and read him as mixed to okay. (Between neutral and village). So back to not giving zenge the benefit of doubt I go.

Well April asked me if you were my top suspect and I said yes. She chose you because she believed in my villageness and vice versa, and I didn’t believe in yours because you aligned yourself with scum instead of us. So basically it’s your fault she chose you and died.

How is it that when people misread you it's their fault but when you misread someone else it's still their fault

 

[sunshinefl]

How is it that when people misread you it's their fault but when you misread someone else it's still their fault

The same way other people say that about me or anyone else 🤷🏼‍♀️

interesting that you just now notice the hypocrisy because I said it, but miss when everyone else says it.

and to answer your question for this specific occasion, AM strongly aligned herself with my strongest scum read, and refused to work with actual village blocc. That is why I could not read her as village.

 

[alleycat03]

more random flush notes
i cannot remember the last time someone picked the Modkilled for No Reason Townie

also I am glad that some of you liked the dumb jokes I used for the role names

I just *really* did not want to be a wolf again so soon after Bioshock. I'm still recovering from that game. Plus the specifics of the wolf role were very confusing to me, so I just picked, in my mind, the slightly less bad role. I didn't like either of them, but I had to pick one

 

[Lawpy]

I just *really* did not want to be a wolf again so soon after Bioshock. I'm still recovering from that game. Plus the specifics of the wolf role were very confusing to me, so I just picked, in my mind, the slightly less bad role. I didn't like either of them, but I had to pick one

protect town!alleys forever

 

[WildZoo]

The same way other people say that about me or anyone else 🤷🏼‍♀️

interesting that you just now notice the hypocrisy because I said it, but miss when everyone else says it.

and to answer your question for this specific occasion, AM strongly aligned herself with my strongest scum read, and refused to work with actual village blocc. That is why I could not read her as village.

Eh, it just stood out to me but you can consider it a general statement to everyone that taking some responsibility for being wrong is generally good. It's not like AM knew paws was mafia any more than you knew 100% before the flip, even though you had that read. I don't think a village bloc really existed this game.

 

[sunshinefl]

Eh, it just stood out to me but you can consider it a general statement to everyone that taking some responsibility for being wrong is generally good. It's not like AM knew paws was mafia any more than you knew 100% before the flip, even though you had that read. I don't think a village bloc really existed this game.

Well cray, April, and I were my blocc, and cray for sure believed in me and April for sure believed in me. I can’t 100% recall if April and cray trusted each other to the same level.