FTF's Worst Idea Yet (Game Over)

[Animal Midwife]

Does this make it any better?

It does. I would have been devastated if Vis lost her first outting.

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[Zenge142]

My favorite series of comments in the thread:

I'm not laughing, Pippy.

Your ass is grass and I'm the mower.

Good luck mowing this

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[Viscernable]

The whole of EOD2 was golden. Howling in laughter and also distress the whole time

 

[JustPaws]

The whole of EOD2 was golden. Howling in laughter and also distress the whole time

Why oh why did you not want us to vote her lol

 

[PippyPony]

I still am perplexed though. Was that a real theory about me intentionally choosing the convert sk, @PippyPony ? You know I hate conversion as a whole.

Kind of?

I do think you might opt to become triggered enough to shoot people to a 3P win. But I wanted some drama lol.

(You say you wouldn't pick it, but search inside your soul. Deep down, you know you would choose violence).

 

[Zenge142]

The whole of EOD2 was golden. Howling in laughter and also distress the whole time

I was so shocked when April died. I had just hit send on a reply to her and I scrolled up to see what I had missed and suddenly she was dead.

 

[PippyPony]

I was so shocked when April died. I had just hit send on a reply to her and I scrolled up to see what I had missed and suddenly she was dead.

Me when I saw April not only died but cleared AM:

 

[Animal Midwife]

Kind of?

I do think you might opt to become triggered enough to shoot people to a 3P win. But I wanted some drama lol.

(You say you wouldn't pick it, but search inside your soul. Deep down, you know you would choose violence).

I'm always an inclusive 3p and I want it to stay that way!

 

[Zenge142]

Me when I saw April not only died but cleared AM:

I don’t know though. If you hadn’t revealed as the goo, I’m not sure I would have survived the yeet.

 

[PippyPony]

I don’t know though. If you hadn’t revealed as the goo, I’m not sure I would have survived the yeet.

That's on the village. They were letting 3P skate by all over the place, so I thought "hey, this looks like a friendly climate for coming out as an inconsequential chaos blob" and I thought I would live if I admitted I wasn't hurting anyone*, or at least not until N5

Buuuut they voted the lame duck over mafia. At which point I started full on rooting for you guys haha

*...Except April. RIP.

 

[Lawpy]

Ultimately though, I need to see deepwolfing sometimes so I can understand WW as a whole better. I also still love the agony of endgame regardless of how it may externally appear. I probably will seriously take up dubz's suggestion though and keep a list because that as relevant meta as any other choice.

How is it deepwolfing if pawsy didnt vote zenges? Its just a push

 

[Animal Midwife]

How is it deepwolfing if pawsy didnt vote zenges? Its just a push

She did vote Zenge. She only moved when Pippy outted herself.

 

[Lawpy]

She did vote Zenge. She only moved when Pippy outted herself.

Thats assuming she would've kept her vote on zenges if pippy wasn't outted though

 

[Lawpy]

Also even if thats the case, how is it not regular or panic bussing?

 

[Zenge142]

Thats assuming she would've kept her vote on zenges if pippy wasn't outted though

Pretty sure she would have. I was dead the next morning anyway.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Thats assuming she would've kept her vote on zenges if pippy wasn't outted though

Zenge was going to die in ~90 seconds if dubz stayed on schedule. She couldn't switch to anyone else due to FTF's tie rules.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Also even if thats the case, how is it not regular or panic bussing?

The only way it can be regular with one partner is if there's thread consensus the partner is scummy or they've got a mechanical red check.

Paws also has never panicked when it comes to this sort of thing. It's very methodological.

 

[Lawpy]

Pretty sure she would have. I was dead the next morning anyway.

She was 2nd on your wagon with 3 hours before close. Thats a lot of time to change or switch over

Zenge was going to die in ~90 seconds if dubz stayed on schedule. She couldn't switch to anyone else due to FTF's tie rules.

Oh. I thought she was set at 10 PM EST at that time so just an hour earlier. That'd change things if she closed right after the Pawsy vote but vote placement kinda rules out deepwolfing imo

 

[Lawpy]

The only way it can be regular with one partner is if there's thread consensus the partner is scummy or they've got a mechanical red check.

Paws also has never panicked when it comes to this sort of thing. It's very methodological.

I thought there was already near consensus zenges was scummy? He outted himself that day right?

 

[Lawpy]

*shrug*

I have a blind spot for Pawsy and was convinced she was village when the game started so i guess even if the deepwolfing stuff is true, it doesn't really affect my read on her

 

[Animal Midwife]

Oh. I thought she was set at 10 PM EST at that time so just an hour earlier. That'd change things if she closed right after the Pawsy vote but vote placement kinda rules out deepwolfing imo

No, it was 9PM.

I thought there was already near consensus zenges was scummy? He outted himself that day right?

No? He had one villager on him the entire game. He wasn't outted until after he died.

 

[Animal Midwife]

*shrug*

I have a blind spot for Pawsy and was convinced she was village when the game started so i guess even if the deepwolfing stuff is true, it doesn't really affect my read on her

That's exactly why it's necessary to be vigilant for this stuff. Done correctly, deepwolfing is as powerful as powerwolfing. Paws can do both extremely well.

 

[Lawpy]

Okay, I guess, role reveal:

Day 3 Suicidal OS Bloodhound

I’m 100% dead tomorrow morning. If I’m not, by all means yeet me. But I’m a bad vote tonight.

This came at 8:56 PM @Animal Midwife

Zenges was being pretty heavily suspected D2. The Pawsy vote in that context looked like regular bussing, not the Staggs/mizzy/vissy/LISOV craziness

 

[Crayola227]

I can't accept the concept of deepwolves. It hurts because I don't want to think of futures where I can't defend them any more, but it's just a reality of life.

I don't know what this is in reply to.

In any case, definitely a repeat in a lot of ways of that one game, and will go down in history as another time Cray was village and got misyeeted at end game for a village loss.

My reads were trash in England but back to pretty decent this game.

Also harumph to Paws saying I never can read her. I was right. Sadly I sorta missed out voting on D2, but I was right on alissa and Paws both despite their heavy emotional manipulation!!

 

[Crayola227]

I have no idea in the world how you guys read Paws so village. The manipulation twisting and lies were so blatant and I pointed it out. Was it VCA?

Don't ever ignore malignant on thread manipulation twisting and lies because of VCA, or, ignore VCA when you see the manipulation twisting and lies, and you'll never lose to a deep wolf or a wolf busser or convert ever again.

I swear to God if I purposefully didn't even look at vote tallies EVER (and admittedly there was a time I didn't) and only focused on posts, I think my reads would be better. At this point it feels like all looking at tallies or VCA seems to do is clear wolves wrongly.

 

[Crayola227]

It matters not to your wincon, but if April had shot literally anyone on the board but me (seeing as she absolutely wasn't going to target sunshine), the game would still be going today.

So I'm still very sad that happened.

Why would shooting say me have made that happen? I don't understand. You're acting like you were the only villager and she would def have hit scum otherwise.

 

[Crayola227]

When Paws was trying to get you in the lead over Vis even before voting there herself. It's what I was thinking about for hours.

Yeah and this didn't factor into my analysis very much so I was able to see Paws as scum.

 

[Lawpy]

I have no idea in the world how you guys read Paws so village. The manipulation twisting and lies were so blatant and I pointed it out. Was it VCA?

Don't ever ignore malignant on thread manipulation twisting and lies because of VCA, or, ignore VCA when you see the manipulation twisting and lies, and you'll never lose to a deep wolf or a wolf busser or convert ever again.

I swear to God if I purposefully didn't even look at vote tallies EVER (and admittedly there was a time I didn't) and only focused on posts, I think my reads would be better. At this point it feels like all looking at tallies or VCA seems to do is clear wolves wrongly.

Eh i agree post analysis is important but VCA can help catch bussing wolves too. It's just dangerous to clear the entire wagon because they yeeted a wolf

 

[Animal Midwife]

This came at 8:56 PM @Animal Midwife

Zenges was being pretty heavily suspected D2. The Pawsy vote in that context looked like regular bussing, not the Staggs/mizzy/vissy/LISOV craziness

Okay, very few people on here are going to hit this level of deepwolfing even if they deepwolf on the regular. The feasible only comparison would be Paws to LIS if we're going by your "consensus wolfread" thing.

 

[Crayola227]

But in all seriousness though I knew he was turning into a tree and dying the next day there was just no reason to hedge... cuz then he was a "stump".

Yes and sadly Zenge's introduction into wolfing involved a ton of analysis of how best to use the imminent deaths of wolves to best advantage.

Zenge has this one posting habit that drives me nuts (I call it stretching, but also maybe it's a theory of mind issue, he sometimes proposes.convoluted genius things that he might think of, but the person he's theorizing may have done it wouldn't, it's like projection that way) but he is learning to dumb down the shade he's casting for the intelligence level of the shadee (I'm kidding a little) and starting to tell more believeable lies.

He pinged me early game but admittedly as it went on I moved him less scummy.

He's likely only to get more dangerous as a wolf.

 

[Crayola227]

I still am perplexed though. Was that a real theory about me intentionally choosing the convert sk, @PippyPony ? You know I hate conversion as a whole.

Even when you get to be a 3P. A 3p shooter?

 

[Crayola227]

Oh I was also terrified about that. AM, WZ, and I also lost as wolves one time when we left the third-party alive

What game was this?

 

[Animal Midwife]

I have no idea in the world how you guys read Paws so village. The manipulation twisting and lies were so blatant and I pointed it out. Was it VCA?

Don't ever ignore malignant on thread manipulation twisting and lies because of VCA, or, ignore VCA when you see the manipulation twisting and lies, and you'll never lose to a deep wolf or a wolf busser or convert ever again.

I swear to God if I purposefully didn't even look at vote tallies EVER (and admittedly there was a time I didn't) and only focused on posts, I think my reads would be better. At this point it feels like all looking at tallies or VCA seems to do is clear wolves wrongly.

You can't ignore VCA ever. You just have to ensure you're reading it right. If a player plays to either of the extremes, it has to be adjusted for that. (Such as, a known powerwolf strongly driving a wolf wagon during endgame is, yet living to the next cycle anyway, should never be in the POE. Vice versa would apply for any known bussers.)

I was aware Paws bussed, but not to this degree.

Why would shooting say me have made that happen? I don't understand. You're acting like you were the only villager and she would def have hit scum otherwise.

That wasn't happening because you weren't on the board + April didn't have you in her POE. She 100% was going to hit scum if she shot anyone but me.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Even when you get to be a 3P. A 3p shooter?

No. Only if it's inclusive or there's a more terrifying exclusive role to avoid. You people and your damned wolfing.

 

[Crayola227]

Kind of?

I do think you might opt to become triggered enough to shoot people to a 3P win. But I wanted some drama lol.

(You say you wouldn't pick it, but search inside your soul. Deep down, you know you would choose violence).

I always said if I got vig I would stay holstered because I think often they should.

But as the wiki article says, "When people are given the option to kill, expect that usually they will choose violence."

 

[Crayola227]

I'm always an inclusive 3p and I want it to stay that way!

We need more exclusive 3Ps in game set ups so people can come to respect/fear them again.

 

[kaydubs]

Oh one more thing
Huuuuuge thank you to both @kaydubs and @Matthew9Thirtyfive for helping with the deadchat
couldn't have done it without them

Ok now I'm going back to bed

You’re welcome!! Let me know if a mass add is required.

 

[Animal Midwife]

You’re welcome!! Let me know if a mass add is required.

Oh, can I join!

 

[Crayola227]

The only way it can be regular with one partner is if there's thread consensus the partner is scummy or they've got a mechanical red check.

Paws also has never panicked when it comes to this sort of thing. It's very methodological.

There are some things I do regularly in pack chat, but one thing I haven't that I'm adding is making a plan around bussing. Like, does anyone want to be bussed, how is each wolf member going to act if another one gets put on the board, ahead of time so that it's more reasoned out and there's less panic bussing.

Looking ahead to how to use Zenge's stumping was good this game.

 

[Animal Midwife]

There are some things I do regularly in pack chat, but one thing I haven't that I'm adding is making a plan around bussing. Like, does anyone want to be bussed, how is each wolf member going to act if another one gets put on the board, ahead of time so that it's more reasoned out and there's less panic bussing.

Looking ahead to how to use Zenge's stumping was good this game.

I figured as much. Didn't really ever think you were a panic busser, but good to see that's confirmed. That's probably the rarest extreme on here in all reality.

 

[kaydubs]

Oh, can I join!

Will transmit names now.

 

[Crayola227]

No. Only if it's inclusive or there's a more terrifying exclusive role to avoid. You people and your damned wolfing.

For the record I would not choose to be non-village. I hate 3P, and wolfing is too stressful to be my choice. I enjoy wolfing but not when I have a choice.

Visc voting me basically had to assume that would be the choice I would make.

I have alluded before to how much work and stress Bioshock was, but she still believed somehow I would discard village role to be mafia.

 

[Animal Midwife]

I always said if I got vig I would stay holstered because I think often they should.

But as the wiki article says, "When people are given the option to kill, expect that usually they will choose violence."

It's actually very anti-village to holster before endgame. Someone else ran the numbers on it on another site, but village is statically more likely to lose with scum-given immunity + village being deprived of a gamesolving tool. It's no different than if a seer holstered for fear of a godfather existing.

 

[Animal Midwife]

For the record I would not choose to be non-village. I hate 3P, and wolfing is too stressful to be my choice. I enjoy wolfing but not when I have a choice.

Visc voting me basically had to assume that would be the choice I would make.

I have alluded before to how much work and stress Bioshock was, but she still believed somehow I would discard village role to be mafia.

I always assumed you liked wolfing in general for some reason.

 

[Animal Midwife]

I kinda still want countdown because of the gap between games though.

 

[Lawpy]

Okay, very few people on here are going to hit this level of deepwolfing even if they deepwolf on the regular. The feasible only comparison would be Paws to LIS if we're going by your "consensus wolfread" thing.

The thing is it's only bussing to me if Pawsy kept that vote on zenges all the way to yeet close

 

[Animal Midwife]

The thing is it's only bussing to me if Pawsy kept that vote on zenges all the way to yeet close

She would have if exactly dubz didn't extend. It's very wild to think about.

 

[Lawpy]

She would have if exactly dubz didn't extend. It's very wild to think about.

Idk. This game is a weird anomaly to me. Can't be certain on anything other than end of day votes

 

[Crayola227]

I figured as much. Didn't really ever think you were a panic busser, but good to see that's confirmed. That's probably the rarest extreme on here in all reality.

Lol actually I thought I was a panic busser, but probably not, the feeling of panic is probably normal when a packmate is up.

To be fair I probably trend towards trying to stay off a wolf vote if I can when I wolf. People on a wolf wagon get cleared but they also get scrutiny. In some ways it's easier to stay off, and if you've cast an early believable vote elsewhere you often can defend sticking to it and not switching. You won't get cred, but you also won't be linked to your partner by vote that way.

I think the above only works well if wolves diversify tho, with some on or off the bus, which we did in Bioschock to mess with VCA. Having all wolves on any one vote makes me extremely nervous and I try to avoid, but at some point it becomes impossible not to do towards end game.

As a wolf trying to mess with VCA, the thing I focus on most, is making sure that votes cast and vote movements, if any, look as "real" and justified by "village" motives as much as possible. I loathe making vote changes meant to preserve a packmate or to bus them because it's those changes that get looked at most and will out more than the wolf in danger. If you can manage a believable reason to vote a villager and stick with it, so much the better. But you have to work to justify whatever you do.

I'm starting to think that it's the way that a pack manages a wolf in danger that does the most to either help or hurt the pack.

I've definitely seen panic bussing, and the only way to prevent it as a pack is probably to already have discussed the scenarios ahead of time.

What traits does a panic bus have again exactly?

 

[Crayola227]

I always assumed you liked wolfing in general for some reason.

I like it, but I'm a masochist and sometimes the things that hurt me and give me pleasure are best foisted on me. Consensual non-consent, if you will.

Every time I see my name on a PM next to wolf my heart drops into my stomach and I say, "****, why?" And I briefly think about if there's any way to get out of it, then I'm like, I'm stuck because the mods and the team, then I'm like I have to make the best of it. And I will and I have a blast but I can only handle it because it's statistically sandwiched between long village reprieves.

It's a rarity and the rarity helps make it enjoyable.