Harvard vs. Duke

[yellowfish]

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Hey KDizz, just wanted to add a + for Duke imo. Although the Harvard names gives you a bit more cred with residency directors, I think that the Duke curriculum is the absolute best for allowing students to tailor the most competitive residency applications they can. Because Duke allows student to complete their clinical rotations the 2nd year, it allows you to tailor your research (which you will do some) to the specific type of residency specialty you are interested in. Most other schools have you do your research/activities pre-clinically which means that for a lot of people they are only tangentially related to the specialty they go into. Having strongly related research is a definite plus in residency applications. Either way you can't go wrong, but I hope this helps to mitigate the residency prestige difference for you.

That's a great point to bring up about the research, I hadn't considered that previously!

 

[yellowfish]

Definitely a tough choice! What does your girlfriend say? If she's the one, I'd listen to her. Good luck!

Well she would definitely like for me to stay in the area (I'd be a little worried if she didn't 😛) but she wants me to do whatever I think is best and will understand if Harvard is ultimately better for my career/aspirations and I choose to go there.

 

[EHizzle]

+1 Harvard.

My PI told me that you should go there. Clearly, he would know what is best for you.

 

[Wifey1985]

Well she would definitely like for me to stay in the area (I'd be a little worried if she didn't 😛) but she wants me to do whatever I think is best and will understand if Harvard is ultimately better for my career/aspirations and I choose to go there.

Any chance she can come with if you move to cambridge?

 

[yellowfish]

+1 Harvard.

My PI told me that you should go there. Clearly, he would know what is best for you.

Your PI is also Harvard+MGH trained and is not completely unbiased to say the least 😉

 

[yellowfish]

Any chance she can come with if you move to cambridge?

Probably not, she's going to stay in the same area for at least a few more years

 

[nabilesmail]

But you can say you went to Harvard....

 

[yellowfish]

I received my financial aid estimate from HMS which was extremely generous given my situation... This makes matters even more difficult as I was leaning towards Duke with the assumption that I wouldn't get much in the way of financial aid grants

 

[deleted127837]

Duke's a legit choice, and you can't overstate being close to your SO while in med school. Harvard can't keep you warm at night 😛

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

I received my financial aid estimate from HMS which was extremely generous given my situation... This makes matters even more difficult as I was leaning towards Duke with the assumption that I wouldn't get much in the way of financial aid grants

Just go to Harvard. the fact that you're still undecided proves that the money isn't as important to you as the Harvard title. Make yourself happy and go there. you don't want to look back for the rest of your life with regret over loans most other people will have to also pay back.

 

[wangers5270]

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[CliveStaples]

I would like to hear your career goals/aspirations before lending advice. The fact that you are pursuing an MD/MBA indicates that your goals go beyond simply placing into the residency of your choice in the specialty of your choice and working that job/research for the rest of your life. If that were your plan, then I think it's Duke in a heartbeat. However, elaborate. Where do you see yourself in 15 years? 30?

 

[deleted127837]

Just go to Harvard. the fact that you're still undecided proves that the money isn't as important to you as the Harvard title. Make yourself happy and go there. you don't want to look back for the rest of your life with regret over loans most other people will have to also pay back.

The same argument can be made in the opposite direction - most people would choose Harvard for the name. The face he's undecided would seem to indicate he wants to choose Duke, but wants to make sure he's not making a huge mistake.

I would like to hear your career goals/aspirations before lending advice. The fact that you are pursuing an MD/MBA indicates that your goals go beyond simply placing into the residency of your choice in the specialty of your choice and working that job/research for the rest of your life. If that were your plan, then I think it's Duke in a heartbeat. However, elaborate. Where do you see yourself in 15 years? 30?

In this vein, MD @ Duke, use the money saved to get your MBA from Harvard. Best of both worlds.

 

[An MD Hopeful]

When I was making college decisions, I ended up turning down several top schools (Yale and Stanford) so that I could stay closer to home and my loved ones. Have to say, I have regretted this decision a lot over the last few years. I know my situation is different than yours (since I didn't have an S.O.), but just make sure that you really will feel at peace with choosing Duke over Harvard. In other words, if there are days when you don't enjoy being at Duke or if there are days when your relationship with your S.O. and family becomes shaky, will you end up telling yourself, "man, I made a mistake, I should have gone to Harvard," or will you ultimately be okay with being at Duke? Just something to think about. Some may disagree with this way of thinking, but trust me, there are days when regrets can become very overpowering.

 

[somefun]

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[speakwhales]

When I was making college decisions, I ended up turning down several top schools (Yale and Stanford) so that I could stay closer to home and my loved ones. Have to say, I have regretted this decision a lot over the last few years. I know my situation is different than yours (since I didn't have an S.O.), but just make sure that you really will feel at peace with choosing Duke over Harvard. In other words, if there are days when you don't enjoy being at Duke or if there are days when your relationship with your S.O. and family becomes shaky, will you end up telling yourself, "man, I made a mistake, I should have gone to Harvard," or will you ultimately be okay with being at Duke? Just something to think about. Some may disagree with this way of thinking, but trust me, there are days when regrets can become very overpowering.

I am going through a similar decision with a top school in California, close to family/SO/friends and HMS, without having your financial incentives to pick that school (in fact, HMS may work out to be cheaper). The Harvard name will also carry a lot of weight in the field I intend to enter - but to be perfectly honest, I asked myself the same question that MD Hopeful mentioned here and it actually made me lean toward my home school.

Medical school is a very intense process. And during a bad week in the future, at HMS, I am, more or less, on my own, probably inside because it's freezing cold outside. At my home school, however, during a bad week I can go home for a good meal or go outside for a walk. That matters enough to me and my happiness that I would give up the prestige. But I also believe that being happy and balanced lets me achieve the most I can.

I think it's an entirely personality issue and those who pick HMS would probably be able to get through it. However, for me personally, 4-5 years(with a masters program) of my 20's is a long enough time of my life that I want to be somewhere where I will be as happy as I can be.

 

[Omppu27]

In this vein, MD @ Duke, use the money saved to get your MBA from Harvard. Best of both worlds.

/thread. Bearstronaut saves the day again.

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

The same argument can be made in the opposite direction - most people would choose Harvard for the name. The face he's undecided would seem to indicate he wants to choose Duke, but wants to make sure he's not making a huge mistake.

I think the fact that he's actually debating giving up a free education at Duke for the name Harvard means he actually wants to go to Harvard and wants to justify giving up the money. Just my opinion, just like your post is your opinion. Why assume your opinion is right? We don't know what's going on in his head, and to be honest I don't think he can really make a bad choice here haha.

OP, follow the advice from earlier, and think about whether or not you'll regret choosing one school over the other in the future. What's most important to you, scholarships and being close to your S.O., or the prestige of Harvard and living out most people's dream?

 

[vistaril]

The idea that going to Duke is going to limit someone in any way is absurd. You're obviously a super bright guy. It won't make a difference in your career if you choose duke over harvard or harvard over duke.

And honestly I'm not sure(and i would guess it wouldnt) that it would make a difference in your career had you chosen UNC over Harvard.

 

[nysegop]

Ron Paul and Rand Paul both went to Duke MD school.

 

[leungdong]

harvard: average fish in a big pond
duke: bigger fish in a slightly smaller pond

 

[pachewisc]

Those saying HBS>>>Duke for an MBA are pretty far off base. In the business community, many people argue that Wharton or Booth are the best business schools, so honestly HBS isn't this looming #1 that no other school can touch. HBS is excellent, but so is Duke. No employer in their right mind would toss a Duke MD/MBA candidate because they didn't go to Harvard. KDizz already has an excellent resume, and I'm sure will continue to be better than all of us throughout medical school 😛. Writing Duke instead of Harvard on your resume isn't going to hurt your chances anywhere. Ignore the school name, but look into the programs! Different business schools offer different MBA programs, so be sure that the type of MBA you want to receive is offered by that institution. Also, MBA costs can vary LARGELY program to program. Look into costs for each. Sometimes it can be as much as $40k+ for an virtually identical "secondary" degrees (presuming you'd consider you MD to be your "primary" degree, if you get what I mean).

As far as medical schools go, it was put beautifully early as:

You will be placed at your top choice [for residency] even if you choose Duke over Harvard

Fact. You always want to be in an environment that fosters your success. If you're succeeding, you'll go further and be happier. It sounds like Duke is that place. 30 years from now, will you be in a better position BECAUSE you chose Harvard over Duke? Doubtful. On the contrary, you wouldn't have spent ~$300,000 paying back loans+interest to Harvard to get to the exact same position you could have gotten to by going to Duke. Let's not forget the emotional/psychological costs added by leaving your SO, family, weather, a more comfortable learning environment, etc. just for a name that is maybe the slightest bit more reputable than Duke (arguably).


Hope that rant helped 🙂. Good luck !

 

[An MD Hopeful]

KDizzle, out of curiosity, have you spoken to any physicians that you know/have worked for? If yes, what are they advising you to do?

 

[yellowfish]

In this vein, MD @ Duke, use the money saved to get your MBA from Harvard. Best of both worlds.

That is certainly a possibility that I will look into if I attend Duke 🙂

Ron Paul and Rand Paul both went to Duke MD school.

I just found that out a few days ago too! Still not sure if that's a plus or a minus.........

harvard: average fish in a big pond
duke: bigger fish in a slightly smaller pond

I don't think the quality of students at Harvard or Duke are so different that I'll outshine students at one but not the other. My PI (who is Harvard/MGH trained) even explicitly told me not to use this as a consideration. *shrug*

Those saying HBS>>>Duke for an MBA are pretty far off base. In the business community, many people argue that Wharton or Booth are the best business schools, so honestly HBS isn't this looming #1 that no other school can touch. HBS is excellent, but so is Duke. No employer in their right mind would toss a Duke MD/MBA candidate because they didn't go to Harvard. KDizz already has an excellent resume, and I'm sure will continue to be better than all of us throughout medical school 😛. Writing Duke instead of Harvard on your resume isn't going to hurt your chances anywhere. Ignore the school name, but look into the programs! Different business schools offer different MBA programs, so be sure that the type of MBA you want to receive is offered by that institution. Also, MBA costs can vary LARGELY program to program. Look into costs for each. Sometimes it can be as much as $40k+ for an virtually identical "secondary" degrees (presuming you'd consider you MD to be your "primary" degree, if you get what I mean).

As far as medical schools go, it was put beautifully early as:

Fact. You always want to be in an environment that fosters your success. If you're succeeding, you'll go further and be happier. It sounds like Duke is that place. 30 years from now, will you be in a better position BECAUSE you chose Harvard over Duke? Doubtful. On the contrary, you wouldn't have spent ~$300,000 paying back loans+interest to Harvard to get to the exact same position you could have gotten to by going to Duke. Let's not forget the emotional/psychological costs added by leaving your SO, family, weather, a more comfortable learning environment, etc. just for a name that is maybe the slightest bit more reputable than Duke (arguably).


Hope that rant helped 🙂. Good luck !

That was a pretty convincing rant! I did look into MBA costs and Duke/Harvard are reasonably comparable. I honestly don't know enough about the business world at this point to compare the quality of MBA degrees from two institutions.

KDizzle, out of curiosity, have you spoken to any physicians that you know/have worked for? If yes, what are they advising you to do?

Yes, I have. I've talked to a couple physicians where I do research who are actually HMS grads and they say that either choice is completely justifiable. Whether you like it or not, people do look at Harvard grads differently (coming from their experience). The problem is that the advantages aren't quantifiable and are going to vary widely from person to person. I don't think any HMS grads claim that the quality of education there is so superior to other schools - it's more the distinction, the resources, and the affiliation with the institution that can open doors. So, they didn't really push me in either direction, they more advised me on the pros and cons of each choice. I'm going to talk with them again after Harvard's SLW.

 

[yellowfish]

I would like to hear your career goals/aspirations before lending advice. The fact that you are pursuing an MD/MBA indicates that your goals go beyond simply placing into the residency of your choice in the specialty of your choice and working that job/research for the rest of your life. If that were your plan, then I think it's Duke in a heartbeat. However, elaborate. Where do you see yourself in 15 years? 30?

Well, that's one of my main problems - I really don't have a great sense of where I intend to be, 15 or 30 years down the road. I have a feeling that I won't be satisfied doing a life of clinic work by itself, and I've always had an interest in entrepreneurial business as well as health policy/management. I have some vague ideas that I really need to solidify in the next couple years!

 

[yellowfish]

When I was making college decisions, I ended up turning down several top schools (Yale and Stanford) so that I could stay closer to home and my loved ones. Have to say, I have regretted this decision a lot over the last few years. I know my situation is different than yours (since I didn't have an S.O.), but just make sure that you really will feel at peace with choosing Duke over Harvard. In other words, if there are days when you don't enjoy being at Duke or if there are days when your relationship with your S.O. and family becomes shaky, will you end up telling yourself, "man, I made a mistake, I should have gone to Harvard," or will you ultimately be okay with being at Duke? Just something to think about. Some may disagree with this way of thinking, but trust me, there are days when regrets can become very overpowering.

I am going through a similar decision with a top school in California, close to family/SO/friends and HMS, without having your financial incentives to pick that school (in fact, HMS may work out to be cheaper). The Harvard name will also carry a lot of weight in the field I intend to enter - but to be perfectly honest, I asked myself the same question that MD Hopeful mentioned here and it actually made me lean toward my home school.

Medical school is a very intense process. And during a bad week in the future, at HMS, I am, more or less, on my own, probably inside because it's freezing cold outside. At my home school, however, during a bad week I can go home for a good meal or go outside for a walk. That matters enough to me and my happiness that I would give up the prestige. But I also believe that being happy and balanced lets me achieve the most I can.

I think it's an entirely personality issue and those who pick HMS would probably be able to get through it. However, for me personally, 4-5 years(with a masters program) of my 20's is a long enough time of my life that I want to be somewhere where I will be as happy as I can be.

I smiled when I read your responses side-by-side; you guys both make great arguments for opposite sides of the issue! 😛

 

[The Beyonder]

Well, that's one of my main problems - I really don't have a great sense of where I intend to be, 15 or 30 years down the road. I have a feeling that I won't be satisfied doing a life of clinic work by itself, and I've always had an interest in entrepreneurial business as well as health policy/management. I have some vague ideas that I really need to solidify in the next couple years!

If you don't know what you want to do yet, then shouln't flexibility be the top priority. Flexibility = cheapest.

 

[yellowfish]

If you don't know what you want to do yet, then shouln't flexibility be the top priority. Flexibility = cheapest.

I'm looking at 100k debt vs. none. 100k isn't debilitating (in fact, it's significantly below average) and I don't think it would make me any less flexible in my career choices. At this point I think finances are important, but are a secondary consideration for me personally

 

[somefun]

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[The Beyonder]

I'm looking at 100k debt vs. none. 100k isn't debilitating (in fact, it's significantly below average) and I don't think it would make me any less flexible in my career choices. At this point I think finances are important, but are a secondary consideration for me personally

Cost of living included or is that just tuition?

 

[yellowfish]

Cost of living included or is that just tuition?

Living included (this is with EFC factored in)

 

[d12]

reading the responses so far, OP is gonna pick harvard lol it's obvious

Come on, let the guy enjoy it a bit. This thread is pre-med version of "The Decision."

 

[d12]

...but go with your gut, OP. You obviously can't go wrong, congrats on having some amazing choices!

 

[Laird]

Do you believe in meritocracy? If so, do you think you will be better/more capable if you go to Harvard instead of Duke? If the answer to the first question is yes, and the answer to the second question is no, then if you go to Harvard because it will "open more doors" you will be contributing to the world being in a state that you disagree with. That logic helped me make a similar decision in the past.

 

[octopusmanus]

I'm looking at 100k debt vs. none. 100k isn't debilitating (in fact, it's significantly below average) and I don't think it would make me any less flexible in my career choices. At this point I think finances are important, but are a secondary consideration for me personally

I was also accepted to Duke (w/o a scholarship) and HMS, and will probably choose HMS. If I were in your position, however, I would definitely go with the full ride. People exaggerate the difference in opportunities and resources between the top schools, and Duke's match list and reputation is nearly as good if not equal to HMS's.

Either way, if you earned a full ride at Duke, you'll probably also conduct enough excellent research (esp. with a full year to do so at Duke) and score highly enough on your Step 1 to choose whichever residency you want, regardless of where you went to school.

Good luck on your decision! I'll be curious to see where you end up.

Edit: I also noticed you're looking at MBA programs (as am I!). At my interview, I spoke with a few MD/MBA candidates at Duke, and apparently the business school is well known for its unique health management program which might be worthwhile for you to look into. One of the downsides of Harvard is that it's actually somewhat difficult to enter the MD/MBA program. Only about 50% of the MD candidates who apply end up getting accepted, and I met someone at my interview who was very bitter after being rejected (presumably because he lacked business experience). Duke seems like the safer/smarter option in this regard.

 

[yellowfish]

Do you believe in meritocracy? If so, do you think you will be better/more capable if you go to Harvard instead of Duke? If the answer to the first question is yes, and the answer to the second question is no, then if you go to Harvard because it will "open more doors" you will be contributing to the world being in a state that you disagree with. That logic helped me make a similar decision in the past.

Do I think meritocracy should exist? Yes. Do I believe meritocracy exists, or ever will? No.

I was also accepted to Duke (w/o a scholarship) and HMS, and will probably choose HMS. If I were in your position, however, I would definitely go with the full ride. People exaggerate the difference in opportunities and resources between the top schools, and Duke's match list and reputation is nearly as good if not equal to HMS's.

Either way, if you earned a full ride at Duke, you'll probably also conduct enough excellent research (esp. with a full year to do so at Duke) and score highly enough on your Step 1 to choose whichever residency you want, regardless of where you went to school.

Good luck on your decision! I'll be curious to see where you end up.

Edit: I also noticed you're looking at MBA programs (as am I!). At my interview, I spoke with a few MD/MBA candidates at Duke, and apparently the business school is well known for its unique health management program which might be worthwhile for you to look into. One of the downsides of Harvard is that it's actually somewhat difficult to enter the MD/MBA program. Only about 50% of the MD candidates who apply end up getting accepted, and I met someone at my interview who was very bitter after being rejected (presumably because he lacked business experience). Duke seems like the safer/smarter option in this regard.

Why did you choose HMS if I may ask? I'm not too concerned about residency itself, I know that Duke and HMS would both provide me with plenty of resources to match competitively. And that is certainly a drawback of Harvard's MD/MBA program. At the same time, I just found out that you have to pay for 3 semesters of tuition at Duke's MD/MBA program (and I would have to pay full MBA tuition).

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[tonguetalker]

Do I think meritocracy should exist? Yes. Do I believe meritocracy exists, or ever will? No.



Why did you choose HMS if I may ask? I'm not too concerned about residency itself, I know that Duke and HMS would both provide me with plenty of resources to match competitively. And that is certainly a drawback of Harvard's MD/MBA program. At the same time, I just found out that you have to pay for 3 semesters of tuition at Duke's MD/MBA program (and I would have to pay full MBA tuition).

Thanks for the feedback!

Do fellowships to pay for the MBA portion of the MD/MBA exist at Duke? Ive heard they do at HMS

 

[UrbanRiver]

.

 

[elevenses]

Duke's a legit choice, and you can't overstate being close to your SO while in med school. Harvard can't keep you warm at night 😛

Have you ever tried to make a long-distance relationship work before? Maybe it's just me, but choosing to live 700 miles away from your SO for several years seems tantamount to breaking up. I'd think really hard about how important your relationship is to you before you make the decision to move. It's not just a minus if you go to Boston, either; it's a plus in terms of support if you go to Duke.

Overall, I'm also in the "HMS isn't worth the additional cost" camp. I don't think you should make so many sacrifices just in case you choose a career where the Harvard name will give you some intangible advantage. It's hard to optimize around so many unknowns, but you at least do[/I ]know that you have an existing support network at Duke and it will cost a lot less. And it sounds like you might not even be able to do an MD/MBA at Harvard.

I understand your pain, although my situation is a bit different; in my case the school that gave me money is in a location where I have no support network. If the school that offered me the money was the school with the support network it would be a no-brainer for me.

There's no way of knowing for sure if you'll regret either decision, but another thing you know for sure is that both are excellent schools, and I don't think either choice would limit you in any way. Unless you want to be faculty at Harvard. Then you should go to Harvard. But I really think you should go to Duke.

And lastly, guys, Boston isn't cold. Alaska is cold 🙂.

P.S. Are you factoring in interest on that $100K loan? 6.8% really adds up over 10-15 years. And although it wouldn't be debilitating, I would consider how it might influence your choice of specialty/employment down the line. Very few people seem very daunted by debt at the beginning of medical school, but quite a few seem daunted by the end.

 

[NickRiviera MD]

Did second look help you with your decision? That 100k is nothing in the grand scheme of things. After meeting everyone at revisit this weekend and talking to some of the older students I don't see how you could pass on HMS. People say you won't be limited either way, but is that really true? I would argue the only medical school in the world you could attend that would have the "limitless" distinction is HMS. Maybe I'm biased.

 

[octopusmanus]

Why did you choose HMS if I may ask? I'm not too concerned about residency itself, I know that Duke and HMS would both provide me with plenty of resources to match competitively. And that is certainly a drawback of Harvard's MD/MBA program. At the same time, I just found out that you have to pay for 3 semesters of tuition at Duke's MD/MBA program (and I would have to pay full MBA tuition).

Thanks for the feedback!

Huh, I hadn't heard that before. I don't doubt your source, but on the Duke MD/MBA website they claim that you pay four years of tuition to the medical school and only one year of tuition to the business school. At Harvard, it works out the same (for the last year you have a semester at the business school and a semester at HMS, but pay a full year of tuition to HMS only).

To be blunt, I will probably choose HMS because I think it is a slightly better school that will open marginally more doors. I also prefer Boston over Durham, and HMS will probably end up being cheaper for me.

Honestly, though, I think your situation is a no-brainer. If you end up turning down Duke, maybe you could pass my name along to them so I can take the scholarship for you. 🙂

 

[yellowfish]

Huh, I hadn't heard that before. I don't doubt your source, but on the Duke MD/MBA website they claim that you pay four years of tuition to the medical school and only one year of tuition to the business school. At Harvard, it works out the same (for the last year you have a semester at the business school and a semester at HMS, but pay a full year of tuition to HMS only).

To be blunt, I will probably choose HMS because I think it is a slightly better school that will open marginally more doors. I also prefer Boston over Durham, and HMS will probably end up being cheaper for me.

Honestly, though, I think your situation is a no-brainer. If you end up turning down Duke, maybe you could pass my name along to them so I can take the scholarship for you. 🙂

I saw that too, but I believe that information is outdated. Here is my source: http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/programs/other_programs/joint_degree_programs/tuition_agreements/

I will certainly do that for you. Please pass on my full scholarship to octopusman! Sincerely, KDizzle

 

[Laird]

Do I think meritocracy should exist? Yes. Do I believe meritocracy exists, or ever will? No.

That seems similar to this logic: I believe people should be honest and not steal. However, there will always be people who lie and steal. Therefore, I will lie and steal too.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are implying.

 

[imnamerican]

That seems similar to this logic: I believe people should be honest and not steal. However, there will always be people who lie and steal. Therefore, I will lie and steal too.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are implying.

I think it's more like this: I believe people should be honest and not steal. However, there will always be people who lie and steal. Therefore, I will operate under that assumption and hide all my junk so those who are dishonest can't steal it from me.

He wouldn't be perpetuating the lack of meritocracy in this world by going to Harvard. He'd be operating under the assumption that his future employers might. Hence, he'd be making the choice that benefits him given that assumption.

 

[Laird]

I think it's more like this: I believe people should be honest and not steal. However, there will always be people who lie and steal. Therefore, I will operate under that assumption and hide all my junk so those who are dishonest can't steal it from me.

He wouldn't be perpetuating the lack of meritocracy in this world by going to Harvard. He'd be operating under the assumption that his future employers might. Hence, he'd be making the choice that benefits him given that assumption.

That's a good explanation imnamerican, thanks. I still think if he goes to Harvard for the sole reason that it might give him an unfair advantage at some point in the future, and it does in fact give him an unfair advantage, he is culpable because he would be knowingly deriving a benefit from something he thinks is wrong.

I don't think either of our analogies are quite right; when you hide your junk so people don't steal from you, you don't get a benefit when those people steal from someone else.

 

[Tots]

That's a good explanation imnamerican, thanks. I still think if he goes to Harvard for the sole reason that it might give him an unfair advantage at some point in the future, and it does in fact give him an unfair advantage, he is culpable because he would be knowingly deriving a benefit from something he thinks is wrong.

I don't think either of our analogies are quite right; when you hide your junk so people don't steal from you, you don't get a benefit when those people steal from someone else.

Wow you appear to have pretty sorid outlook on life. Opening doors does not automatically equal unfair advantage. With this reasoning he shouldn't go to Duke either because Duke might open more doors than Podunk College of Medicine......Not to attack you in anyway, I just think that this issue is not as straightforward as you make it seem and cannot be reduced to a moral argument.

 

[La Presse]

Harvard. No question.

 

[GrabSlamBoot]

Harvard. No question.

Haha wut?

 

[La Presse]

Haha wut?

A full scholly is nice, but does not allow me to overlook Harvard's academic presence--to put it nicely.

 

[Laird]

Wow you appear to have pretty sorid outlook on life. Opening doors does not automatically equal unfair advantage. With this reasoning he shouldn't go to Duke either because Duke might open more doors than Podunk College of Medicine......Not to attack you in anyway, I just think that this issue is not as straightforward as you make it seem and cannot be reduced to a moral argument.

It's all based on the assumptions. Applying them to your new hypo: if 1) he thinks he wouldn't be any more capable going to Duke than he would be if he went to Podunk College of Medicine; and 2) the only reason he would choose Duke was that the name recognition might make him get a job over other more capable people in the future; and 3) he believes in a meritocracy, then yes I think it would be morally wrong for him to go to Duke.

It's pretty easy to have any of these assumptions not be true, and that was the main point of my post. If he thinks the future name recognition of going to Harvard will not be deserved (i.e. he isn't any better for going to Harvard), then he should ignore name recognition in his decision making. I really was trying to be helpful, especially because that logic helped me make a similar decision in my past.

If the assumptions are true, then I think the argument is pretty straightforward (but that's a pretty big if).

I guess we can agree to disagree that having doors opened opened via anything other than you being the best person for the job is unfair or not. I don't see how that makes me have a sordid outlook on life though.

Finally, although a perfect meritocracy is probably not possible, there are varying degrees of meritocracy in the world, and I've observed a positive correlation between prosperity and degree of meritocracy. I believe moving towards a meritocracy is something that requires conscious effort, so it was kind of disconcerting to see how easily the poster dismissed the consideration, especially considering he has a high probability of influencing policy at some level in his lifetime.

I guess your position is disconcerting as well, but you have a much lower probability of influencing policy in your lifetime because you won't be going to Harvard. (Just to be clear, I'm totally joking in the last sentence - I think you're destined for great things Tots.)