Michigan vs Wayne State (full tuition)

[ANATOMYgirl22]

Sorry to post another one of these, but sometimes it helps to get an outside perspective...

So May 15th is dangerously close and I still haven't decided on a school. I'm down to two choices: University of Michigan (5K/year scholarship) and Wayne State University (full tuition scholarship). I've already contacted Michigan about the possibility of getting a larger scholarship, but it's looking like they won't be able to let me know before the May 15th deadline. I am a Michigan resident, so tuition for me at U of M would be ~25K/year (with my 5K scholarship), putting me at 100K extra in loans to attend U of M.

Some factors that play into my decision making process...
1. I am very interested in research. Obviously the research opportunities are better at Michigan, but I also have to consider that having hardly any debt would allow me freedom to pursue lower paying research positions.
2. I do think that I would want to specialize (though not sure in which field). Michigan's match list is definitely better, but Wayne matched well the past few years and regularly matches people into highly competitive specialties.
3. My husband works at Wayne. We can still live together if I'm at U of M, but would be commuting to school/work and probably wouldn't see each other quite as much.
4. I really like both Ann Arbor and Detroit, so the location doesn't really matter to me either way.
5. Michigan is straight pass/fail years 1 and 2 and does not rank students those years. Wayne has a pass/fail/honors system and does rank years 1 and 2 (basically, U of M seems less stressful- at least for 1st and 2nd year)
6. The Michigan name does carry weight. I'm just not sure if it's worth 100K?


basically, I'm trying to figure out if 100K is worth it for the added opportunity that a U of M degree would offer me. Coming from a background where we didn't have a lot of extra money, 100K is a really big deal to me, so it's hard to put in to perspective how much it will matter down the road.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

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[Amba]

Yay, @ANATOMYgirl22 is back! Congrats on the great choices. My vote is Michigan all the way, especially given your interests in academics.

 

[ANATOMYgirl22]

Yay, @ANATOMYgirl22 is back! Congrats on the great choices. My vote is Michigan all the way, especially given your interests in academics.

Hey Amba! I had to come back to get advice from all of my favorite strangers, haha. Thanks for your comment!

Anyone else?


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[Entadus]

Before I entered the thread, I somehow already knew you wanted Michigan, OP. Then I read the part about your S.O. being at Wayne already. The full ride plus that factor is probably enough to make Wayne's offer impossible to refuse. As wonderful as Michigan is, I don't think it makes sense to go there (commuting every day? That will drive up the COA at Michigan won't it? Factor in gas, auto wear/maintenance, commuting during bad weather, TIME; The difference will be more than $100 grand).

You should have faith in your ability to succeed at either school, and choose Wayne. See it for the blessing that it is.

If you think I'm biased, I will even admit that Michigan was my top choice post-interview. I was pretty devastated when I didn't get in. But practicality is something to consider

P.S. I voted Michigan before I read the OP. D'oh.

 

[nemo123]

I just read on another thread that you can ask schools to give you an extension on the May 15th depending on your circumstances, and this sounds like a situation where that would be possible, considering Michigan will get back to you after May 15th.

 

[ANATOMYgirl22]

I just read on another thread that you can ask schools to give you an extension on the May 15th depending on your circumstances, and this sounds like a situation where that would be possible, considering Michigan will get back to you after May 15th.

Hmm... I'll think about that. I'm supposed to contact UMich again on the 14th, so maybe I'll ask them for an extension if they still don't have an answer for me. However, do you think that's kind of a slap in the face for Wayne since they offered me a full ride?

anyone else have thoughts on the two choices?

 

[SilentSoldier]

For me, support from friends and family and money trump prestige every time, only because they'll make me more happy while I'm in the thick of things in school. I think you'd honestly be able to succeed at both schools, but wouldn't the added benefit of having no debt be great to alleviate your concerns of having to match into the academic specialties that tend to be lower paying? However, if you're able to get the debt down at Michigan, I think that seems to be a little bit more where your heart lies so hopefully they can match or at least bring the difference down to more manageable levels. Hope it works out for you!

 

[cookiemonsters]

As far as cost, I think most people would be willing to pay ~100K extra to get their MD degree from a perennial top 10ish school. I personally drew the line around the top 20's in my own decision for which schools I would pay a premium to go to, so I definitely would've taken Michigan in this situation.

 

[ANATOMYgirl22]

Before I entered the thread, I somehow already knew you wanted Michigan, OP. Then I read the part about your S.O. being at Wayne already. The full ride plus that factor is probably enough to make Wayne's offer impossible to refuse. As wonderful as Michigan is, I don't think it makes sense to go there (commuting every day? That will drive up the COA at Michigan won't it? Factor in gas, auto wear/maintenance, commuting during bad weather, TIME; The difference will be more than $100 grand).

You should have faith in your ability to succeed at either school, and choose Wayne. See it for the blessing that it is.

If you think I'm biased, I will even admit that Michigan was my top choice post-interview. I was pretty devastated when I didn't get in. But practicality is something to consider

P.S. I voted Michigan before I read the OP. D'oh.

Would it change your mind knowing that we would both commute a little ways anyway even if I'm at Wayne? We have 2 dogs and aren't planning to live right in the city (we want a yard), so we would still live outside of Detroit and would probably have like a 20 minute drive (However, we might be able to ride together sometimes). It would be more like a 30 minute commute if I go to U of M, because we would try to be somewhere between the 2 places (Ann Arbor and Detroit are about an hour apart)

 

[nemo123]

Hmm... I'll think about that. I'm supposed to contact UMich again on the 14th, so maybe I'll ask them for an extension if they still don't have an answer for me. However, do you think that's kind of a slap in the face for Wayne since they offered me a full ride?

anyone else have thoughts on the two choices?

No, I don't think it would be... This is your future after all and just tell them that you don't want to make the wrong decision and that you want to make sure you get a full picture financially from Mich.

 

[ANATOMYgirl22]

No, I don't think it would be... This is your future after all and just tell them that you don't want to make the wrong decision and that you want to make sure you get a full picture financially from Mich.

Good point. Maybe I will contact Wayne first and see what their response is before bothering to ask Michigan.

 

[GBODumich2012]

Sorry to post another one of these, but sometimes it helps to get an outside perspective...

So May 15th is dangerously close and I still haven't decided on a school. I'm down to two choices: University of Michigan (5K/year scholarship) and Wayne State University (full tuition scholarship). I've already contacted Michigan about the possibility of getting a larger scholarship, but it's looking like they won't be able to let me know before the May 15th deadline. I am a Michigan resident, so tuition for me at U of M would be ~25K/year (with my 5K scholarship), putting me at 100K extra in loans to attend U of M.

Some factors that play into my decision making process...
1. I am very interested in research. Obviously the research opportunities are better at Michigan, but I also have to consider that having hardly any debt would allow me freedom to pursue lower paying research positions.
2. I do think that I would want to specialize (though not sure in which field). Michigan's match list is definitely better, but Wayne matched well the past few years and regularly matches people into highly competitive specialties.
3. My husband works at Wayne. We can still live together if I'm at U of M, but would be commuting to school/work and probably wouldn't see each other quite as much.
4. I really like both Ann Arbor and Detroit, so the location doesn't really matter to me either way.
5. Michigan is straight pass/fail years 1 and 2 and does not rank students those years. Wayne has a pass/fail/honors system and does rank years 1 and 2 (basically, U of M seems less stressful- at least for 1st and 2nd year)
6. The Michigan name does carry weight. I'm just not sure if it's worth 100K?


basically, I'm trying to figure out if 100K is worth it for the added opportunity that a U of M degree would offer me. Coming from a background where we didn't have a lot of extra money, 100K is a really big deal to me, so it's hard to put in to perspective how much it will matter down the road.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

Michigan, without a doubt. No place in the US is better than Ann Arbor and Michigan Medical School is top 10 in the country. It is a once in a lifetime opportunity to be able to study there for medical school. Do not pass it up.

 

[Entadus]

Would it change your mind knowing that we would both commute a little ways anyway even if I'm at Wayne? We have 2 dogs and aren't planning to live right in the city (we want a yard), so we would still live outside of Detroit and would probably have like a 20 minute drive (However, we might be able to ride together sometimes). It would be more like a 30 minute commute if I go to U of M, because we would try to be somewhere between the 2 places (Ann Arbor and Detroit are about an hour apart)

Yeah it would change my mind. Go Michigan and don't look back! Don't say I didn't warn you about the debt, though.

 

[umms2017]

Edit: see below

 

[marvaments]

Would it change your mind knowing that we would both commute a little ways anyway even if I'm at Wayne? We have 2 dogs and aren't planning to live right in the city (we want a yard), so we would still live outside of Detroit and would probably have like a 20 minute drive (However, we might be able to ride together sometimes). It would be more like a 30 minute commute if I go to U of M, because we would try to be somewhere between the 2 places (Ann Arbor and Detroit are about an hour apart)

Hey Anatomygirl,

I'm currently an M1 at Michigan living halfway in between Detroit and Ann Arbor, my S.O. is an M2 about to be an M3 at Wayne State. I've commuted for about a almost 2 years, with one year working a 9-5 job in a lab in Ann Arbor. I would say it is definitely doable to commute since my commute to Ann Arbor is only 20-35min depending on the traffic/time of day. In addition, after seeing my S.O. go through M1 and M2 years I would say you would definitely be happier at Michigan in terms of stress/research opportunities. The research opportunities at Michigan is on a totally different level than what Wayne has to offer. Funding is more abundant, and the resources are so much more (professors basically throw around publications).

No offense to Wayne, but it seems that they don't care for their student's happiness and seem to enjoy running their students into the ground while ignoring them. Just hearing stories, I hear from my S.O. almost 10% of their class are either forced to take another year to complete their preclinical years because they fail a sequence. Their M2 seems crazy and hectic and their curriculum is old and antiquated (words from my S.O.). They are constantly changing professors and using material that hasn't changed in literally a decade. By the time they finish their M2 classes, everyone seems burnt out and then they have to study for boards. Their class is ranked, which only serves to breed competition amongst each other (they send out an email at the end of M1 year showing everybody's ranks). In addition, I feel their class is more segmented into cliques and not as open and friendly as Michigan.

If you feel you can take rigors of Wayne and if money is very important to you, then I would say go to Wayne. Otherwise, I feel you would be much MUCH happier at Michigan in terms of life happiness and opportunities.

I think their "interview day" is an indication of what they think of their students

 

[ANATOMYgirl22]

Hey Anatomygirl,

I'm currently an M1 at Michigan living halfway in between Detroit and Ann Arbor, my S.O. is an M2 about to be an M3 at Wayne State. I've commuted for about a almost 2 years, with one year working a 9-5 job in a lab in Ann Arbor. I would say it is definitely doable to commute since my commute to Ann Arbor is only 20-35min depending on the traffic/time of day. In addition, after seeing my S.O. go through M1 and M2 years I would say you would definitely be happier at Michigan in terms of stress/research opportunities. The research opportunities at Michigan is on a totally different level than what Wayne has to offer. Funding is more abundant, and the resources are so much more (professors basically throw around publications).

No offense to Wayne, but it seems that they don't care for their student's happiness and seem to enjoy running their students into the ground while ignoring them. Just hearing stories, I hear from my S.O. almost 10% of their class are either forced to take another year to complete their preclinical years because they fail a sequence. Their M2 seems crazy and hectic and their curriculum is old and antiquated (words from my S.O.). They are constantly changing professors and using material that hasn't changed in literally a decade. By the time they finish their M2 classes, everyone seems burnt out and then they have to study for boards. Their class is ranked, which only serves to breed competition amongst each other (they send out an email at the end of M1 year showing everybody's ranks). In addition, I feel their class is more segmented into cliques and not as open and friendly as Michigan.

If you feel you can take rigors of Wayne and if money is very important to you, then I would say go to Wayne. Otherwise, I feel you would be much MUCH happier at Michigan in terms of life happiness and opportunities.

I think their "interview day" is an indication of what they think of their students

Thanks for the response. It's helpful to hear from someone with both perspectives. Seems like there is an overwhelming push towards Michigan. That's sort of the way I've been leaning... it's just so hard to turn down that much money!

It is worth mentioning that I definitely like other things about Wayne besides the price. Students there get a pretty incredible clinical education and Detroit is a really cool city (and my husband and I would be there together). However, the ranked class thing is something that I was very concerned with (I'd heard not so great things about it from other people). I actually scheduled a day to go check out the campus again recently (I missed second look weekend there) and I met with a few students. They all assured me that it wasn't all that competitive and that they liked their classmates fine and had time outside of class to do other stuff. I'm not sure how much I should trust that though since I'm sure they were supposed to be talking up their school.

 

[marvaments]

Thanks for the response. It's helpful to hear from someone with both perspectives. Seems like there is an overwhelming push towards Michigan. That's sort of the way I've been leaning... it's just so hard to turn down that much money!

It is worth mentioning that I definitely like other things about Wayne besides the price. Students there get a pretty incredible clinical education and Detroit is a really cool city (and my husband and I would be there together). However, the ranked class thing is something that I was very concerned with (I'd heard not so great things about it from other people). I actually scheduled a day to go check out the campus again recently (I missed second look weekend there) and I met with a few students. They all assured me that it wasn't all that competitive and that they liked their classmates fine and had time outside of class to do other stuff. I'm not sure how much I should trust that though since I'm sure they were supposed to be talking up their school.

I would say Michigan has the same clinical experience, but I guess I have to say the experience you want depends on what your goals are. At Wayne state since the first two years are ranked, students who wish to get AOA basically have to slave away in order to be at the top 10-15% of the class to be eligible for AOA (also Wayne State puts your rank in your dean's letter for residency). Since Michigan is P/F the first two years there is nothing differentiating you and your classmates and that is why junior AOA is not available. This puts more pressure on 3rd year, and probably means more stress during 3rd to stand out from your classmates for those who want AOA.

So each school has its advantages/disadvantages. I feel 3rd year at Wayne State might have less pressure than 3rd year at Michigan in terms of trying to compete with your classmates.

 

[themockjock]

As a UM undergrad and now Wayne nearly M4, I was in a pretty similar boat as you and chose Wayne obviously. The biggest thing is you have to ask yourself how important a research career is to you. If you know that you want your career to involve bench work with extramural funding, etc etc. then UM is definitely the place to go. Your research connections there will be huge and no doubt better than Wayne's. That is not to say that there isn't a good deal of research and opportunities at Wayne, but UM is on another level. I only realized after I started that I want a research career (albeit clinical - I hate lab work) and while doing it here has had some advantages (I have been given free reign to essentially do whatever I want and manage projects from IRB to manuscript), it would definitely be more of an uphill battle compared to UM.

If it isn't as important, or you are wavering about research, or want to do clinical stuff mostly then I would think long and hard about Wayne. The $ is of course a big deal and we have matched well into competitive specialties the last several years. Additionally, while I generally agree with marvaments about some issues with an antiquated M1/2 years (although some would say old school...) I wouldn't go so far as to say that the school doesn't "care for their student's happiness and seem to enjoy running their students into the ground." Sure, there are some less than stellar professors but in general they are pretty decent, especially first year and the woman who runs second year pathology/pathophysiology (Dr. Bosch) is fantastic. Additionally, I know of several 260+ step 1 scorers in my class, so one can definitely do well on the boards despite the complaints that marvaments raised. I would also disagree with the degree of competitiveness (unless the underclassmen are way more cutthroat than my class was...) - sure there were some dingus gunners who were super competitive but generally people were pretty supportive and laid back. I never ran into classmates trying to screw me over or anything like that.

The other issue is that his/her SO hasn't had 3rd year yet, which really is the best part of Wayne and an experience that I don't think you can get anywhere else. I'll just copy and paste what I wrote about it on the WSU thread: "Practicing medicine in Detroit is like practicing first-world medicine on patients with third-world health problems. In my third year, I saw three cases of neurosyphilis, and even trench foot (yes, the WWI trench foot). Not to mention the most terribly bad pathologies of garden-variety illnesses (BMI of >100 isn't all that uncommon). You WILL get good at managing very sick patients. Residents and attendings also give Wayne students a lot of latitude in doing procedures... I've put in several chest tubes, intubated, central lines, arterial lines, etc. There were also several instances on Trauma (it's always with a capital T in Detroit) when it was just the chief and I operating in the middle of the night; that's where the real learning takes place. You also get to choose (mostly - it's a lottery but >90% of the students get their first choice of hospital) among several hospital systems where you want to do third year... from big academic tertiary referral centers like DMC and Henry Ford to smaller community hospitals with lots of bread-and-butter medicine like Oakwood." A friend of mine just finished his ER at Sinai-Grace - one of the busiest EDs in the country - and by the end of his rotation was seeing 20+ patients per shift and independently managing them with the attending (no resident on his patients).

If that is something that really appeals to you, I would definitely think about Wayne, if not, and you're happy doing more shadowing and seeing patients with more rare and interesting diseases (but less... sick [BMI of 100, HgbA1c of 17, end stage COPD, etc etc] - the Detroit special) then UM hospital is the place to be.

 

[ANATOMYgirl22]

As a UM undergrad and now Wayne nearly M4, I was in a pretty similar boat as you and chose Wayne obviously. The biggest thing is you have to ask yourself how important a research career is to you. If you know that you want your career to involve bench work with extramural funding, etc etc. then UM is definitely the place to go. Your research connections there will be huge and no doubt better than Wayne's. That is not to say that there isn't a good deal of research and opportunities at Wayne, but UM is on another level. I only realized after I started that I want a research career (albeit clinical - I hate lab work) and while doing it here has had some advantages (I have been given free reign to essentially do whatever I want and manage projects from IRB to manuscript), it would definitely be more of an uphill battle compared to UM.

If it isn't as important, or you are wavering about research, or want to do clinical stuff mostly then I would think long and hard about Wayne. The $ is of course a big deal and we have matched well into competitive specialties the last several years. Additionally, while I generally agree with marvaments about some issues with an antiquated M1/2 years (although some would say old school...) I wouldn't go so far as to say that the school doesn't "care for their student's happiness and seem to enjoy running their students into the ground." Sure, there are some less than stellar professors but in general they are pretty decent, especially first year and the woman who runs second year pathology/pathophysiology (Dr. Bosch) is fantastic. Additionally, I know of several 260+ step 1 scorers in my class, so one can definitely do well on the boards despite the complaints that marvaments raised. I would also disagree with the degree of competitiveness (unless the underclassmen are way more cutthroat than my class was...) - sure there were some dingus gunners who were super competitive but generally people were pretty supportive and laid back. I never ran into classmates trying to screw me over or anything like that.

The other issue is that his/her SO hasn't had 3rd year yet, which really is the best part of Wayne and an experience that I don't think you can get anywhere else. I'll just copy and paste what I wrote about it on the WSU thread: "Practicing medicine in Detroit is like practicing first-world medicine on patients with third-world health problems. In my third year, I saw three cases of neurosyphilis, and even trench foot (yes, the WWI trench foot). Not to mention the most terribly bad pathologies of garden-variety illnesses (BMI of >100 isn't all that uncommon). You WILL get good at managing very sick patients. Residents and attendings also give Wayne students a lot of latitude in doing procedures... I've put in several chest tubes, intubated, central lines, arterial lines, etc. There were also several instances on Trauma (it's always with a capital T in Detroit) when it was just the chief and I operating in the middle of the night; that's where the real learning takes place. You also get to choose (mostly - it's a lottery but >90% of the students get their first choice of hospital) among several hospital systems where you want to do third year... from big academic tertiary referral centers like DMC and Henry Ford to smaller community hospitals with lots of bread-and-butter medicine like Oakwood." A friend of mine just finished his ER at Sinai-Grace - one of the busiest EDs in the country - and by the end of his rotation was seeing 20+ patients per shift and independently managing them with the attending (no resident on his patients).

If that is something that really appeals to you, I would definitely think about Wayne, if not, and you're happy doing more shadowing and seeing patients with more rare and interesting diseases (but less... sick [BMI of 100, HgbA1c of 17, end stage COPD, etc etc] - the Detroit special) then UM hospital is the place to be.

Thanks for chipping in. The clinical exposure is definitely something that interests me at Wayne. Every Wayne student I've met has raved about the opportunities they've had and the unique cases they've had a chance to be a part of. Research is important to me. I've been doing cancer research for over 2 years since I graduated and am pretty sure my career will lead me down an academic path.

When I visited Wayne one student mentioned that I might be able to do my 1st summer research at U of M ( there is a specific lab that I was invited to work in there). How likely do you think it is that I could make that work if I went to Wayne?



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[nvlorenzai]

My vote is Michigan all the way, especially given your interests in academics.

 

[FA5297]

I just made a similar decision. Full ride at Wayne, nothing at another top program. I chose Wayne. The following is what I considered:

My girlfriend at WSU was delivering babies and plugging gunshot wounds with her fingers, while my friends at UM were delivering placentas. At Michigan, they had never seen a gunshot wound. My friends at UM had nowhere near the exposure of WSU in the clinical years. Thats not to say Michigan doesn't have its strengths- just that they are in different areas. For one, the administration's responsiveness will be better at UM, as are the research opportunities and the "name" (though as a graduate of Michigan's law school, I think the prestige is overrated on these forums). As an aside, my girlfriend had her choice of residency programs, and ended up choosing one of the top ones in her field, as did my friends from Michigan. Either way, you can't go wrong. I suppose if you're heavy into academia and lifestyle, you should strongly consider Ann Arbor. If you want to see what medicine is in the trenches, go for Wayne. Best of luck with your decision!

 

[ANATOMYgirl22]

Made the official decision to Go Blue and I feel great! It was definitely the right one for me. Thanks for your input guys!!