Penn v. Yale v. Columbia 2013

[yalehopeful2013]

Hi everyone!

My best friend from college, SDN username Wangers5270, has been generous to ask many of my questions on my behalf the past few months, but after so many months, I've caved and decided to join SDN today!!! She posted this forum for me but I decided join and restart it myself. Anyways, I was accepted to Columbia and I'm waiting to hear back from Penn and Yale next week (sadly rejected by Harvard and Hopkins ). If I have the luxury to decide between any of those schools, I'd love to hear others' opinions! I've made a poll and compiled the below information to compare these 3 schools!

Thanks!
~YaleHopeful2013

First, the metrics :

Honor Roll Hospital Rankings, US News
New York Presbyterian (Cornell-Columbia)- #7
Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania (Penn)- #15
Yale-New Haven Hospital- n/a

Undergrad reputation, US News (generally how the layman perceives the prestige of your institution)
Yale- #3
Columbia- #4
Penn- #8

Research rankings, US News
Yale- #7
Columbia- #8
Penn- #3

Class Size:
Yale- 100
Columbia- 166
Penn- 166

I'm a fan of smaller class sizes personally.

Match List
Yale- http://medstation.yale.edu/enrollment/www/2012matchspec.pdf (8/100 derm, 1/100 plastics, 2/100 ortho for competitive specialties)
Columbia- http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/psjour.../residency_match_specialties_2012_3.20.12.pdf (3/166 derm, 10/166 ortho, 1/166 plastics)
Penn- 5/140 ortho, 2/140 plastics, 4/140 derm

Second, the location

Columbia- Downtown NY (well, Washington Heights...close enough!), so much culture and excitement, tons of things to do (Broadway, Times Square, endless shopping and adventures + close to Boston)
Penn- University City of Philly, great place to live but many people commute from Center City across the river and might not be as convenient as Bard Hall)
Yale- New Haven, CT; not as happening but the amazing music school will provide many concerts and shows! Also not far from other big cities

Would probably have to say in that regard, Columbia wins for me!

Third, the medical program itself:

Columbia- 1.5 year preclerkship, 1 year clerkships, Step 1 after clerkships, 1.5 years electives; no grades pre-clerkship; scholarly project required
Yale- 2 & 2 curriculum if I recall, NO GRADES EVER YEAAA YALE SYSTEM!!!!, thesis suggested/required
Penn- 1.5 year preclerkship, 1 year clerkships, 1.5 years electives. Grades after 1st semester until the very end (BOO!!!); also small-group emphasis

I'm very opposed to grades, so Columbia & Yale win here. Not partial about condensed pre-clerkship or not.

Fourth, student happiness:

Columbia- they LOVE IT.
Yale- Happiest students ever (the Yale system has been around nearly 100 years, and speaks for itself)
Penn- Mix; pretty stressed

So, I'm thinking Yale > Columbia > Penn for now!

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[red doctober]

There was a post with the exact same comparison literally 9 mins before you posted this.

 

[yalehopeful2013]

There was a post with the exact same comparison literally 9 mins before you posted this.

I know! My friend wangers5270 has been asking all my SDN questions for me for the past few months but I finally told her that I can take it from here!!

 

[wangers5270]

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[487806]

YAY YOU'RE FINALLY HERE!!!!

YALE #1 I <3 YALE!!!!

PS- nice avatar!

Friends have met on SDN!!!

 

[Ichiban88]

geez! you both sound like amazing applicants! congrats for your choices!
I should have put pokemon trainer on my ECs too! haha

 

[red doctober]

I am willing to bet that students from all three match very well. However, I would think that the students at each have a slight edge matching at their respective associated hospitals. If you feeling that you want to do residency somewhere else like Cali, it probably doesn't matter between those though.

Also, I think that those differences in ranking are completely negligible.

 

[wangers5270]

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[justkeepswiming]

"yalehopeful2013"- seems like you've answered your own question

with regard to locations of the schools, though, none of them are super fabulous. columbia is about as far from "downtown NYC" as you can get, and new haven is equally if not more shady...

 

[red doctober]

The Yale system sounds awesome for those who work better that way. I would say definitely don't do it if you're the type of student that needs a little push from school to stay motivated and caught up, although Yale students on SDN say most people do just fine with it. I suppose you don't want to be one of those few every year that really struggle with it though.

 

[red doctober]

"yalehopeful2013"- seems like you've answered your own question

with regard to locations of the schools, though, none of them are super fabulous. columbia is about as far from "downtown NYC" as you can get, and new haven is equally if not more shady...

Ahem, Albert Einstein School of Medicine?

Columbia is really only about a 20-30 minute subway ride to the West Village.

 

[487806]

Ahem, Albert Einstein School of Medicine?

Columbia is really only about a 20-30 minute subway ride to the West Village.

I didn't realize that was in NYC until now...

Honestly, Penn, Yale and Columbia are equally good. It's pretty hard to choose one of them. Go to Second Look.

 

[red doctober]

SUNY Downstate is technically also in NYC, which makes the total number 7 (6 MD + 1 DO) medical schools in NYC.

 

[justkeepswiming]

Ahem, Albert Einstein School of Medicine?

Columbia is really only about a 20-30 minute subway ride to the West Village.

Okay yes you technically CAN get further from downtown. (yale and penn are farther than columbia too!) Just sayin, it's not very close in nyc terms when you're looking at where you're mostly likely going to be living and spending the majority of your time as a med student. Looks like the post was updated anyway!

 

[wangers5270]

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[red doctober]

Okay yes you technically CAN get further from downtown. (yale and penn are farther than columbia too!) Just sayin, it's not very close in nyc terms when you're looking at where you're mostly likely going to be living and spending the majority of your time as a med student. Looks like the post was updated anyway!

I'm just saying that nearly everywhere in Manhattan is accessible by mass transit, and that the geographical distance of Columbia from downtown isn't as drastic when there's a major subway line that has a station two blocks from where the students live.

 

[Frabbitrabbit13]

Good point, I think she's just as neurotic as me about this whole thing! I'm sure they all match well. Impressed with Columbia's ortho matches though, wow!

Not sure where either of us want to do residency yet, really depends on med school experience.

I hope both of us can go to Yale together!!! It's such a wonderful place and the Yale System is phenomenal Cali girls represent!!!

I'm a CA girl waiting to hear from Yale too! Oh please oh please

 

[Tots]

I'm a CA girl waiting to hear from Yale too! Oh please oh please

I am a Cali guy waiting to hear from Yale! Oh please oh please!

 

[zwander]

Yes, you can get even farther from NYC than Columbia

Neptune School of Medicine, anyone?

 

[wangers5270]

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[justkeepswiming]

Yes, you can get even farther from NYC than Columbia

Neptune School of Medicine, anyone?

okayyyyyyyy okayy

but srsly, they're all great schools. at this level the metrics don't matter. it's a matter of where you think you'll be happiest if you do end up with the luxury of this choice come next week. (even though it's a little premature at this point..... since i'm waiting on a decision from one of these schools myself, my first thought seeing this thread was WHAT?? they're sending decisions early????)

 

[chillaxbro]

I love your avatars

 

[940]

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[deleted127837]

:|

 

[wangers5270]

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[deleted127837]

Oh no, it looks like most people would take Yale over Penn and Yale over Columbia based on the 40ish survey responses. Looks like I might have to fight a pretty strong Yale waiting list if it comes to that

Most of the people voting here probably didn't interview at Yale, y'know.

Also, this thread is ridiculous. A very small number of people on this forum will interview at one of these schools, much less all of them, much less get accepted to all of them, so most opinions are based on layperson prestige and area preference. They all offer a surpassing medical education and nearly unlimited opportunity. Yale and Penn's decisions haven't even been announced yet, and if you (world-ending gasp) don't get in, it nullifies the whole purpose of the debating here.

This is ignoring the part where you already know exactly where you want to go and in what order you would go to them in, so what is this thread accomplishing? People comparing schools in the 40s and 50s (most of SDN) see threads like this and feel...what exactly?

Sorry. Pet peeve. Carry on.

 

[7032]

Most of the people voting here probably didn't interview at Yale, y'know.

Also, this thread is ridiculous. A very small number of people on this forum will interview at one of these schools, much less all of them, much less get accepted to all of them, so most opinions are based on layperson prestige and area preference. They all offer a surpassing medical education and nearly unlimited opportunity. Yale and Penn's decisions haven't even been announced yet, and if you (world-ending gasp) don't get in, it nullifies the whole purpose of the debating here.

This is ignoring the part where you already know exactly where you want to go and in what order you would go to them in, so what is this thread accomplishing? People comparing schools in the 40s and 50s (most of SDN) see threads like this and feel...what exactly?

Sorry. Pet peeve. Carry on.

!

 

[deleted127837]

In support of my bro Bearstronaut, y'all ______!

Sorry, but there's a difference between criticizing their rhetoric (and the purpose of the thread), and attacking them as people. Please try to do the first, and not the second. They're (presumably) great people who have had fantastic cycles, and deserve to be excited and happy about their success. My goal is to highlight the (lack of understanding of) the distance between their cycles and other peoples' cycles, and how they may make less fortunate applicants feel. I've had a great cycle, but I (very rarely) post anything about it during the season for exactly this reason.

Empathizing with others shouldn't be checked at the entrance to an anonymous place - and that includes empathizing with the successful as well as the unsuccessful.

It doesn't bother me that a thread like this may exist when it's appropriate, but it's preemptive and, at current and by their own rhetoric, serves no apparent purpose.

Also, what you said may get you banned. I'd suggest editing it

/soapy soapbox

 

[7032]

Sorry, but there's a difference between criticizing their rhetoric (and the purpose of the thread), and attacking them as people. Please try to do the first, and not the second. They're (presumably) great people who have had fantastic cycles, and deserve to be excited and happy about their success. My goal is to highlight the (lack of understanding of) the distance between their cycles and other peoples' cycles, and how they may make less fortunate applicants feel. I've had a great cycle, but I (very rarely) post anything about it during the season for exactly that reason. Empathizing with others shouldn't be checked at the entrance to an anonymous place - and that includes empathizing with the successful as well as the unsuccessful.

It doesn't bother me that a thread like this may exist when it's appropriate, but it's preemptive and, at current and by their own rhetoric, serves no apparent purpose.

Also, what you said may get you banned I'd suggest editing it

/soapy soapbox

!!

 

[googoo]

Most of the people voting here probably didn't interview at Yale, y'know.

Also, this thread is ridiculous. A very small number of people on this forum will interview at one of these schools, much less all of them, much less get accepted to all of them, so most opinions are based on layperson prestige and area preference. They all offer a surpassing medical education and nearly unlimited opportunity. Yale and Penn's decisions haven't even been announced yet, and if you (world-ending gasp) don't get in, it nullifies the whole purpose of the debating here.

This is ignoring the part where you already know exactly where you want to go and in what order you would go to them in, so what is this thread accomplishing? People comparing schools in the 40s and 50s (most of SDN) see threads like this and feel...what exactly?

Sorry. Pet peeve. Carry on.

40s and 50s? ...I was thinking more like the people who are waitlisted and have no acceptances yet!

But it would be Columbia all the way for me...no question! I mean its Columbia! And its NYC!

 

[yalehopeful2013]

Thank you all for the wonderful, supportive feedback!

 

[Moldycheese432]

I had the pleasure of interviewing at all three, and my honest opinion is as follows. Every med school is, roughly, 85% the same. The last 15% is what differentiates them, and between Penn, Yale, and Columbia I would venture to say that the 15% difference is probably further contracted. That being said, I think the most important thing to consider is where you think you might be happiest. Its become very clear to me that no med school will guarantee your future success as a physician, and as such the decision to matriculate in a particular med school over another should be based on things not easily quantifiable; i.e. how comfortable you are in the location, how well you connected with students etc etc.
Ultimately, where we end up as physicians is on our shoulders, not on the med school, not on the professors, not on our mentors. choose a med school where you think you can be successful, rather than with arbitrary rankings.

 

[alpinism]

If you haven't already both of you should email and talk to 3rd/4th yr students before you make a final decision.
(re: clerkships, sub-Is, electives, step 1, research ops)

 

[dahassa]

I had the pleasure of interviewing at all three, and my honest opinion is as follows. Every med school is, roughly, 85% the same. The last 15% is what differentiates them, and between Penn, Yale, and Columbia I would venture to say that the 15% difference is probably further contracted. That being said, I think the most important thing to consider is where you think you might be happiest. Its become very clear to me that no med school will guarantee your future success as a physician, and as such the decision to matriculate in a particular med school over another should be based on things not easily quantifiable; i.e. how comfortable you are in the location, how well you connected with students etc etc.
Ultimately, where we end up as physicians is on our shoulders, not on the med school, not on the professors, not on our mentors. choose a med school where you think you can be successful, rather than with arbitrary rankings.

I agree there are more similarities than differences. All three have great matchlists, board scores, and reputations. It is literary splitting hairs trying to differentiate which is more "elite." I only applied to Columbia and Yale, and I was fortunate to interview at both. I was also able to stay at both for a few extra days (I have an undergrad friend at Columbia and my cuz is an M3 at Yale). Along with uchicago, these 2 are my top choices. So here are some differences I found:

Curriculum:

Columbia:
It is the 2nd oldest med school and the first to award an MD/ have a white coat ceremony. Columbia has a 1.5 preclinical structure for the first 2 years. Thus, the curriculum is more condensed and clerkships start earlier. It is a system that many medical schools are moving towards. Columbia has a more "high yield approach," and thus more freedom in the later years. However, since the curriculum has to be condensed, there isn't as much time to cover other interesting topics in detail (healthcare disparities, cutting edge research, ect). Furthermore, I felt that students at Columbia seemed to be the most satisfied/ confident with the way anatomy is taught. Anatomy is a bitch and a big part of the boards. It is one of the few classes I specifically ask about and Columbia students consistently seemed the most satisfied.
After the 1.5 clinical year, there is a year of clerkships and then Step 1 after clerkships. I was told by my interview that Columbia had the highest board scores last year (although it appears many schools make this claim ). I think putting the preclinical knowledge to practical use before taking the boards really helps with regards to retaining/reviewing the information. During the last year, 4 months are dedicated to the scholarly project. So, you have the opportunity to focus on research. And unlike a required thesis, the scholarly project has more flexibility and you have the opportunity to "hop around" until you find what feels right.

Yale:
Yale has a 2 and 2 system which I think is great. You get the full first 2 years to focus on preclinical and the last 2 years are spent on rotations. You don't have to worry about a condensed curriculum. In other words, the first two years aren't spent "teaching for the boards." Professors have more flexibility to include other topics (new discovers made in medicine, healthcare disparities, ect). In addition, the Yale system means no grades and no ranks. This is both a positive and a negative. Although living in a world without grades would be great and we could all pursue knowledge for knowledge's sake, tests and grades serve as a benchmark. I think for a lot of people the Yale system requires a certain type of student, and I think most pre-meds would probably be more successful in a more structured environment (particularly when it comes down to doing well on the boards).
The other big thing is the required thesis. Since Yale has no grades/rank, it becomes difficult to rank/compare students. Although Yale is great, not everyone can go to MCG or Duke for surgery. Hence, the quality of research and the thesis becomes important. I think this adds a layer of stress and it results in a loss of flexibility. Furthermore, a thesis requires intense research and time. You don't have as much freedom to pursue other interests (both academic and not), particularly in the last 2 years. In some ways,this is even more arduous than the standard 3rd year clinical rankings.

Clinical Experience:
I think both provide a great experience. Overall, Yale doesn't compare to Columbia-Presb. But as medical students it is more about the rotation system in place, feedback system, and dedication of the residents/attendings to teaching. However, since academic institutions tend to inbreed (about 1/4 Columbia students seem to get residencies at Columbia) this results in a home team advantage. It would be amazing to have such an advantage for a top 5 (7 according to USnews)hospital.

Class size:
Yale has a small class with 100 students. I think this results in a more intimate and cohesive medical school experience. At the same time, it results in fewer options (less people to hangout with and meet) and less diversity (particularly with regards to background and thought).
Columbia, on the other hand, has an average sized class of about 165. While this results in more diversity and broader prespectivies, it makes it easier to get lost in the crowd and the class won't be as cohesive.

Student Body:
Columbia students seemed more well rounded. I think a part of it is being in NYC (so much art, music, and culture), and a part of it is school selection. P&S has a big emphasis on extracurriculars and outside interests. At Columbia, students talk about art and philosophy almost as much as they talk about medicine. Columbia students were also very social and chill.
Yale students were also really nice and relaxed. In general, they are extremely passionate about medicine. Although not as well rounded as P&S students, Yale students were also very friendly and social.

Prestige:
Since it is a factor constantly talked about on SDN (almost to an extreme), I would have to say they are both extremely well regarded and prestigious. I actually went to HYP for undergrad (originally from the southeast), and I think overall they both give you a "wow" factor. If you go to either, you are set. However, in terms of layman prestige Yale>Columbia. In terms of Ivy prestige, I would say it is H then P/Y then C. So C is right below.
In terms of medical prestige, I would argue Columbia med is better known (Yale is known more so for law, theater, English, arts, ect) due to shows like Gray's Anatomy, NY Med, Dr. Oz. Columbia also has a more well known hospital and the medical research (particularly neuro) that goes on is also more renown. But overall it's a tie.

Location:
There is no doubt here: Columbia>>>>>>Yale. New York is one of the most amazing cities in the world. It is one of the greatest cities in the west (probably along with Paris and London). There are 6 billion people in the world, and very very few ever have an opportunity to live there. It is the kind of place millions want to live in and few get the opportunity. The culture, art, music, Broadway, the MET, MoMa, ect. There is no place in the world like NYC. I wouldn't give up the opportunity to be a 20-something in NYC lightly.
New Haven doesn't even compare and the area around Yale is pretty questionable. It is a bit unsafe. Columbia is 20-30 min away from almost anywhere in NYC and unlike NH, you don't need a car. Lower Manhattan is pretty hectic and there are many tourists during summer/spring.

Overall, I would say Columbia and Yale are pretty even. I would encourage people to decide based on the right curricuculum for you, location, and where you can fit in/be happy.

 

[yalehopeful2013]

OMG I was accepted to Penn and Yale yesterday and today!!!! Didn't think I'd realistically have this choice, but I'm so happy!!!!!!!! Yayyyy!!! I'm still thinking Yale is for me, and it looks like the poll agrees! Thanks for everyone's input and help!!! I think I'll go to Second Look Weekend at Columbia and Yale, and mayyyybe Penn Preview since they're all on separate weekends, but it's a lot of traveling

 

[wangers5270]

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[Shockwave456]

Yes, you can get even farther from NYC than Columbia

Neptune School of Medicine, anyone?

I hear that the astrobiology research opportunities at Neptune School of Medicine are unparalleled.

 

[oliverjames]

I think any one who gets accepted to any of these schools is likely having to choose between them. This thread has been pretty helpful to me actually... at least the first post where all the comparisons is consolidated and simplified...

 

[sassbun]

The other big thing is the required thesis. Since Yale has no grades/rank, it becomes difficult to rank/compare students. Although Yale is great, not everyone can go to MCG or Duke for surgery. Hence, the quality of research and the thesis becomes important. I think this adds a layer of stress and it results in a loss of flexibility. Furthermore, a thesis requires intense research and time. You don't have as much freedom to pursue other interests (both academic and not), particularly in the last 2 years. In some ways,this is even more arduous than the standard 3rd year clinical rankings.

Yale clinical years student here and just wanted to clarify a few things (overall, a really excellent post) for those of you weighing your options.

We do have clinical grades (H/HP/P/F). There are no quotas/cutoffs and no shelf exams, and your grade is based exclusively on resident and attending commentary. Most people do not consider them particularly important and they are not a source of stress, but if having something to "distinguish" yourself for residency is important to you, it's certainly there.

As far as the thesis, it is 100% what you make of it. Some people crank out hard core basic science for a year, and some people do a month long chart review. It is definitely not a source of stress or inflexibility, especially because we have exactly 2 required rotations (including your sub-i) in 4th year, everything beyond that is up to you to do or not do. If you're deciding between top schools, odds are you're going to do research regardless in med school, and Yale has more flexibility than most in terms of timing.

Unrelated rant:
Match lists keep coming up and I can't resist getting up on my soapbox. Match lists do have some information, but for 99% of incoming med students, they are absolutely worthless in terms of your decision. Match lists leave out a huge component, which is what the students wanted. If you match someone in family medicine at a community hospital in the middle of nowhere, that doesn't look "good" on a match list. However, perspective changes when you learn that that student had a 260, all honors on her clinical rotations, and 3 pubs, but happens to love family medicine and has family in that middle of nowhere town (hypothetical, but you get the idea). By the time you're applying to residency, a lot more people have family/life concerns that dictate their choices far more than going to the "best" program. Between two schools of equivalent caliber, differences in the match list are mostly going to come down to variations in student preference, both in terms of specialty and location. Lots of insanely competitive people go into non-competitive fields because they love it.

 

[wangers5270]

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