RANT HERE thread

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Yea of course. But they were asking if it’s a thing and are already taking care of the rest of your concern so I just gave them that info. If they hadn’t said that their dog is currently at the vet getting examined, I would’ve said go to the vet.
Right, but it’s worth noting that it’s not always best to give the straight up answer to someone you’ve never seen/ don’t know the history behind. It can instill a lot of unnecessary fear and anxiety, and in some cases, end up with the pet suffering because the owner just assumes it’s going to be a fatal diagnosis. Just as cloudy eyes doesn’t always mean cataracts, a limping dog doesn’t always mean CCL rupture or osteosarc- but that’s the one that’ll pop up when a person googled it. So instead of it being a very simple thing, the owner is anxious and won’t take the animal in for fear of it being cancer or worse.

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Right, but it’s worth noting that it’s not always best to give the straight up answer to someone you’ve never seen/ don’t know the history behind. It can instill a lot of unnecessary fear and anxiety, and in some cases, end up with the pet suffering because the owner just assumes it’s going to be a fatal diagnosis. Just as cloudy eyes doesn’t always mean cataracts, a limping dog doesn’t always mean CCL rupture or osteosarc- but that’s the one that’ll pop up when a person googled it. So instead of it being a very simple thing, the owner is anxious and won’t take the animal in for fear of it being cancer or worse.
You’re right, and I do agree with you. In this case though the dog is literally at the vet and they were wondering, if it turns out to be cataracts, does a treatment for it exist. I don’t see the harm in saying yes it does.
 
You’re right, and I do agree with you. In this case though the dog is literally at the vet and they were wondering, if it turns out to be cataracts, does a treatment for it exist. I don’t see the harm in saying yes it does.
If they were at the vet, the vet would tell them the options. Or they should ask the vet. The vet might’ve already looked at the eyes and determined that no, it’s not cataracts!
 
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If they were at the vet, the vet would tell them the options. Or they should ask the vet. The vet might’ve already looked at the eyes and determined that no, it’s not cataracts!
This was an extremely specific situation where the dog is being boarded at the vet and the owners are going away, so they’re not currently in contact with the vet. Odds are the vet hasn’t examined the dog yet.
But I still don’t see what the problem is, regardless. I’m not diagnosing, I’m not giving info on referral hospitals, success rates, a video of the procedure, or anything that can even be considered worrying. It’s just a link to a vet school’s website that discusses how cataracts are treated. If the person posting had googled “dog cataract surgery” they would’ve found the same link. It’s obvious they’re googling and finding all of the wrong information, which causes them a lot more anxiety than just giving them an answer to a question that has an easy answer. They didn’t ask what medications to give for their dog or how much. They just asked if a treatment exists.
 
This was an extremely specific situation where the dog is being boarded at the vet and the owners are going away, so they’re not currently in contact with the vet. Odds are the vet hasn’t examined the dog yet.
But I still don’t see what the problem is, regardless. I’m not diagnosing, I’m not giving info on referral hospitals, success rates, a video of the procedure, or anything that can even be considered worrying. It’s just a link to a vet school’s website that discusses how cataracts are treated. If the person posting had googled “dog cataract surgery” they would’ve found the same link. It’s obvious they’re googling and finding all of the wrong information, which causes them a lot more anxiety than just giving them an answer to a question that has an easy answer. They didn’t ask what medications to give for their dog or how much. They just asked if a treatment exists.


Regardless, you should never give advice over the phone or over the internet unless you have personally seen the animal and know about the current situation. This causes a ton of lawsuits and issues because well "the vet clinic I called said this". Unless you are currently involved in the case and know exactly what is going on then you cannot and should not give any advice about treatments, surgeries, cost, etc. Like others have said, this animal may not be a good candidate for surgery and you would have just gotten the clients hope up for nothing. These types of situations are a slippery slope and should be tread very carefully. If you have seen this animal, then go ahead and give them the website about the cataracts, but until you have seen the animal, you cannot give any advice besides to talk to their regular vet.

The problem comes when you give advice to someone and they talk your advice over that of their regular vet. Now you have undermined their family veterinarian and are causing issues within their veterinary community. Also, these forums are not for giving any advice whether it is about treatment, costs, diagnosis, etc.
 
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Regardless, you should never give advice over the phone or over the internet unless you have personally seen the animal and know about the current situation. This causes a ton of lawsuits and issues because well "the vet clinic I called said this". Unless you are currently involved in the case and know exactly what is going on then you cannot and should not give any advice about treatments, surgeries, cost, etc. Like others have said, this animal may not be a good candidate for surgery and you would have just gotten the clients hope up for nothing. These types of situations are a slippery slope and should be tread very carefully. If you have seen this animal, then go ahead and give them the website about the cataracts, but until you have seen the animal, you cannot give any advice besides to talk to their regular vet.

The problem comes when you give advice to someone and they talk your advice over that of their regular vet. Now you have undermined their family veterinarian and are causing issues within their veterinary community. Also, these forums are not for giving any advice whether it is about treatment, costs, diagnosis, etc.
Again, I completely understand not giving advice about treatment or anything related. But I didn’t give treatment advice. I just said that yes, surgery is a thing that exists for cataracts and it usually costs x amount. Obviously if I said to give certain medications or to not go to the vet then that’s different, but I didn’t.
 
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I guess I’ll nip this in the bud (even though it’s past that). I know not to give advice over the internet. I’ve never done that, and will never do that. That’s illegal. I didn’t and never will tell someone which medication to give, how to treat at home, or to not go to the vet if they’re concerned about their pet. In this case, I linked to a procedure because someone asked if it existed. That’s not giving advice. Obviously you guys can’t know that I know not to give advice, or you’re setting an example for others who don’t know not to give actual advice. That’s fine, but I do know not to give advice, and that’s not what i did here.

Also I know it can be bad to set expectations before discussing it with the vet. I don’t think that’s what happened here though.
 
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This was an extremely specific situation where the dog is being boarded at the vet and the owners are going away, so they’re not currently in contact with the vet. Odds are the vet hasn’t examined the dog yet.
But I still don’t see what the problem is, regardless. I’m not diagnosing, I’m not giving info on referral hospitals, success rates, a video of the procedure, or anything that can even be considered worrying. It’s just a link to a vet school’s website that discusses how cataracts are treated. If the person posting had googled “dog cataract surgery” they would’ve found the same link. It’s obvious they’re googling and finding all of the wrong information, which causes them a lot more anxiety than just giving them an answer to a question that has an easy answer. They didn’t ask what medications to give for their dog or how much. They just asked if a treatment exists.
Sure, but the dangerous thing here is that there is no universal treatment for this sort of problem, and treatment directions are highly dependent on the individual case. From this perspective there is not an easy answer for an owner because so much depends on what is identified on exam.

A leading cause of cataracts in dogs is underlying diabetes - if I surgically treat the cataracts and don't address the diabetes, I will have accomplished nothing for the dog's care because I didn't have that complete clinical picture of the dog to work from. Sometimes a cataract is so advanced on presentation that it changes the prognosis we can offer for return to vision, and increases the likelihood of serious complications that can include loss of the eye itself.

These are important prognostic discussions to have with an owner to make sure they are as informed as possible about the medical decisions they make regarding the care of their pet, and the likely outcomes if they pursue them.

As an example, say this was a kitten who was developing cataracts - the conversation I would be having about treatment options would look very different if this was because the kitten had been given inappropriate milk replacer than if the kitten had developed cataracts secondary to anterior uveitis from underlying FIP. These are nuances we can't speculate about without examining the animal, and it is somewhat unwise to present treatment options without knowledge of the full scope of the individual animal's case, history, and capabilities of the owners.
 
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So, my sister is back in the hospital. Again. Cool. I'm not crying. Today sucks.
 
I’m sorry mlp :(
Hope she can go home soon :(
*hugs*
Thanks ski, just waiting on some better news. She has been in a hospital longer than she has been at home in the past 6 months... but I really thought the last time was gonna be over winter break. Last week I found out she had been in the hospital again and my parents kept it from me because they didn't want to worry me. And then it happened again today. And the worst part is being so far away. My undergrad school is like 3 hours away from home. I can't go home every time she goes into the hospital... I'm just worried about her...
 
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I’m sorry :(
I hope everything’s okay <3
Will you be able to drive home this weekend and see her?
I think I'm going to. 3 hours isn't terrible, but its enough that I can't go mid-week or every weekend really... Hopefully good things will happen soon. Thanks for your support Ski, I just needed to rant anonymously for a minute and wrap my head around things
 
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I think I'm going to. 3 hours isn't terrible, but its enough that I can't go mid-week or every weekend really... Hopefully good things will happen soon. Thanks for your support Ski, I just needed to rant anonymously for a minute and wrap my head around things
Yeah definitely understandable to not be able to go midweek or every weekend. Glad you’ll be able to see her this weekend though.
And no problem. It’s what we’re here for on this thread<3
 
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Just need to whine for a sec and then it’s suck it up buttercup. Throat started hurting a little yesterday morning, then my back got achy. Now I’ve been up for two hours tossing and turning, horrible headache and hurt all over. I have a lab report due tomorrow (that I have extra to do-thanks groupwork!) and a biochem test on Thurs that I felt good about until the prof freaked everyone in class out reviewing material that was definitely a step up from what we had learned.

Upset cause I don’t feel good and I’m stressed and literally spent the whole month of January congested and coughing and now I’m afraid I’m getting sick again and I’ve never gotten sick this frequently in my life :arghh: yay for working in too tight quarters with people that have lots of kids to spread **** around #whiningover
 
admissions process got me down....I'll be back in March when it's time for MSU decisions

zzz
 
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Edit: my heat is out because both my boiler and water heater died and this is what happens when I leave for 4 days. :thumbdown:

By the end of this week, I'll be trying to pay off almost a year's pay in home repair bills.
 
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I don’t know why, but every time I’m enjoying my peaceful commute on the train to or from work, someone gets on and starts blasting music through their phone or a speaker without headphones. Seriously, why? Are you trying to show the world what your taste in music is like? Does it help you meet people? What’s the point? There are 6 things that are listed on the train not to do and that’s one of them.
 
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I don’t know why, but every time I’m enjoying my peaceful commute on the train to or from work, someone gets on and starts blasting music through their phone or a speaker without headphones. Seriously, why? Are you trying to show the world what your taste in music is like? Does it help you meet people? What’s the point? There are 6 things that are listed on the train not to do and that’s one of them.
I feel you with the public transit. I don't often run into people blasting their music but I do live in Denver so uh…there's a persistent odor…
ETA: But I get a public transit pass included with tuition which saves me like $90/month in gas so I can't complain too much.
 
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I feel you with the public transit. I don't often run into people blasting their music but I do live in Denver so uh…there's a persistent odor…
ETA: But I get a public transit pass included with tuition which saves me like $90/month in gas so I can't complain too much.
Come on out to the east coast. We always like to complain. Even when it’s not warranted, we love to complain. The roads are constantly salted in the winter so I think some of that salt diffuses into our bodies.
 
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Come on out to the east coast. We always like to complain. Even when it’s not warranted, we love to complain. The roads are constantly salted in the winter so I think some of that salt diffuses into our bodies.
that’s better than the south where it comes time to salt the roads and the city has an anxiety attack “uuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm where’s the salt???? where’sthesaltwhere’sthesaltwhere’sthesaltwhere’sthesalt?????”

I think I heard that 3 counties here in Oklahoma, share a set of snow plows.
 
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Come on out to the east coast. We always like to complain. Even when it’s not warranted, we love to complain. The roads are constantly salted in the winter so I think some of that salt diffuses into our bodies.
No. I already hate winter. I don't need more of it lol.
 
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that’s better than the south where it comes time to salt the roads and the city has an anxiety attack “uuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm where’s the salt???? where’sthesaltwhere’sthesaltwhere’sthesaltwhere’sthesalt?????”

I think I heard that 3 counties here in Oklahoma, share a set of snow plows.
The south doesn’t know how to handle snow. I mean I can’t blame them because they don’t usually get it so people’s tires are different, infrastructure is different, and the government doesn’t have a good plan in place like the northeast has. My friend at Mississippi state got off for a few flakes of snow. In undergrad we had to walk to school in a foot of snow. Uphill both ways!
 
OH I ALSO WANTED TO RANT ABOUT A CLASS I HAD TODAY

Background: It's a once-a-week interprofessional education class and the past few weeks we've been learning about ethics by following an 8-step ethical analysis template with various cases. The first time we did this (case details are irrelevant) my group chose to refer the patient to a different provider and our facilitator suggested it wasn't the best option because we were "kicking the can down the road" so to speak, so since then we've tried to "take a stand." Also last week we got a new facilitator so now we have two.

So anyway, the case this week featured a 15-year-old boy with terminal brain cancer. He's had three surgeries so far, and each improved his condition, but the improvements were smaller and smaller each time, and each time the tumor regrew. Now the doctors are considering a fourth surgery which would only serve to prolong his life. He is "not thrilled." The parents are clearly distraught and the dad says "We'll do whatever it takes to make our little boy better."

So the options are:
A. Go with what the patient wants and do not perform the surgery.
B. Go with what the parents want and perform the surgery.
C. Consult the care team and let them decide.

So my group says "eff C, that's kicking the can down the road, and besides the care team shouldn't be allowed to unilaterally make a decision like this." We all agreed we wanted to respect the patient's wishes but state law does not allow a minor to give informed consent for medical decisions without a parent present (with some exceptions like birth control). So our plan involved a mediation session between the patient, his parents, and his care team to explain the options available, manage expectations, and hopefully come to a consensus of the best course of action for the patient. But ultimately, we decided we were going to let the parents have the final say. Option B.

Now first facilitator is super awesome. She critiques our ethics cases with stuff like "but have you considered XYZ?" and stuff like that. She's really constructive in her feedback. Second facilitator…I feel like that's what she's trying to do but she comes off kind of argumentative. When we said the law was the main basis for our decision she said something to the effect of "well the law isn't everything." :wtf: Like I understand if you want us to discuss what we should do ethically, like if the law wasn't an issue, but then say that, otherwise we're going to assume we're talking about what we should do realistically. Realistically, I do not want to lose my license for breaking the law, thank you very much. Then later she started talking about how hospital ethics committees sometimes make decisions that are in the best interest of the patients that are above the law and we were like "so you're telling us to break the law then" and she's like "well no" and we're like "that is literally what you just said." Anyway the gist of it is we got the impression that we chose the "wrong" answer and the "correct" answer was C, consult with the care team because then we're considering the values of all involved parties. Which like 1) kicking the can, but 2) we are looping the care team in to our decisions and we are not unilaterally deciding that the parents know best.

It's so irritating because this was the first case my group 100% agreed on, we felt our justification and counter-counter-arguments were solid, and we were taking a stand on a decision. We incorporated all the feedback we've received so far this semester. Plus we were under the impression that ethics doesn't really have a "right" answer so to be made to feel like we chose the "wrong" answer (even if they didn't outright say it) and be grilled about it for 4x as long as any other group is just really demoralizing. My entire group was frustrated to no end.

TL;DR My group worked up an ethics case and felt solid about our decision and reasoning but were made to feel like we chose the "wrong" answer.
 
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OH I ALSO WANTED TO RANT ABOUT A CLASS I HAD TODAY

Background: It's a once-a-week interprofessional education class and the past few weeks we've been learning about ethics by following an 8-step ethical analysis template with various cases. The first time we did this (case details are irrelevant) my group chose to refer the patient to a different provider and our facilitator suggested it wasn't the best option because we were "kicking the can down the road" so to speak, so since then we've tried to "take a stand." Also last week we got a new facilitator so now we have two.

So anyway, the case this week featured a 15-year-old boy with terminal brain cancer. He's had three surgeries so far, and each improved his condition, but the improvements were smaller and smaller each time, and each time the tumor regrew. Now the doctors are considering a fourth surgery which would only serve to prolong his life. He is "not thrilled." The parents are clearly distraught and the dad says "We'll do whatever it takes to make our little boy better."

So the options are:
A. Go with what the patient wants and do not perform the surgery.
B. Go with what the parents want and perform the surgery.
C. Consult the care team and let them decide.

So my group says "eff C, that's kicking the can down the road, and besides the care team shouldn't be allowed to unilaterally make a decision like this." We all agreed we wanted to respect the patient's wishes but state law does not allow a minor to give informed consent for medical decisions without a parent present (with some exceptions like birth control). So our plan involved a mediation session between the patient, his parents, and his care team to explain the options available, manage expectations, and hopefully come to a consensus of the best course of action for the patient. But ultimately, we decided we were going to let the parents have the final say. Option B.

Now first facilitator is super awesome. She critiques our ethics cases with stuff like "but have you considered XYZ?" and stuff like that. She's really constructive in her feedback. Second facilitator…I feel like that's what she's trying to do but she comes off kind of argumentative. When we said the law was the main basis for our decision she said something to the effect of "well the law isn't everything." :wtf: Like I understand if you want us to discuss what we should do ethically, like if the law wasn't an issue, but then say that, otherwise we're going to assume we're talking about what we should do realistically. Realistically, I do not want to lose my license for breaking the law, thank you very much. Then later she started talking about how hospital ethics committees sometimes make decisions that are in the best interest of the patients that are above the law and we were like "so you're telling us to break the law then" and she's like "well no" and we're like "that is literally what you just said." Anyway the gist of it is we got the impression that we chose the "wrong" answer and the "correct" answer was C, consult with the care team because then we're considering the values of all involved parties. Which like 1) kicking the can, but 2) we are looping the care team in to our decisions and we are not unilaterally deciding that the parents know best.

It's so irritating because this was the first case my group 100% agreed on, we felt our justification and counter-counter-arguments were solid, and we were taking a stand on a decision. We incorporated all the feedback we've received so far this semester. Plus we were under the impression that ethics doesn't really have a "right" answer so to be made to feel like we chose the "wrong" answer (even if they didn't outright say it) and be grilled about it for 4x as long as any other group is just really demoralizing. My entire group was frustrated to no end.

TL;DR My group worked up an ethics case and felt solid about our decision and reasoning but were made to feel like we chose the "wrong" answer.
I do think the last part you said is the kicker. Ethics really is dependent on who is judging whether or not you’re being ethical. That’s why there are entire ethics comitees. They make an aggregate decision to decide something, it’s not just one person saying “meh, this feels right so that’s what I’m gonna go with.” I’m really surprised that going with the legal answer and trying to work with all parties to work towards a solution that works for everyone and is also legal wasn’t a good answer. Idk, I always hated ethics classes.
 
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OH I ALSO WANTED TO RANT ABOUT A CLASS I HAD TODAY

Background: It's a once-a-week interprofessional education class and the past few weeks we've been learning about ethics by following an 8-step ethical analysis template with various cases. The first time we did this (case details are irrelevant) my group chose to refer the patient to a different provider and our facilitator suggested it wasn't the best option because we were "kicking the can down the road" so to speak, so since then we've tried to "take a stand." Also last week we got a new facilitator so now we have two.

So anyway, the case this week featured a 15-year-old boy with terminal brain cancer. He's had three surgeries so far, and each improved his condition, but the improvements were smaller and smaller each time, and each time the tumor regrew. Now the doctors are considering a fourth surgery which would only serve to prolong his life. He is "not thrilled." The parents are clearly distraught and the dad says "We'll do whatever it takes to make our little boy better."

So the options are:
A. Go with what the patient wants and do not perform the surgery.
B. Go with what the parents want and perform the surgery.
C. Consult the care team and let them decide.

So my group says "eff C, that's kicking the can down the road, and besides the care team shouldn't be allowed to unilaterally make a decision like this." We all agreed we wanted to respect the patient's wishes but state law does not allow a minor to give informed consent for medical decisions without a parent present (with some exceptions like birth control). So our plan involved a mediation session between the patient, his parents, and his care team to explain the options available, manage expectations, and hopefully come to a consensus of the best course of action for the patient. But ultimately, we decided we were going to let the parents have the final say. Option B.

Now first facilitator is super awesome. She critiques our ethics cases with stuff like "but have you considered XYZ?" and stuff like that. She's really constructive in her feedback. Second facilitator…I feel like that's what she's trying to do but she comes off kind of argumentative. When we said the law was the main basis for our decision she said something to the effect of "well the law isn't everything." :wtf: Like I understand if you want us to discuss what we should do ethically, like if the law wasn't an issue, but then say that, otherwise we're going to assume we're talking about what we should do realistically. Realistically, I do not want to lose my license for breaking the law, thank you very much. Then later she started talking about how hospital ethics committees sometimes make decisions that are in the best interest of the patients that are above the law and we were like "so you're telling us to break the law then" and she's like "well no" and we're like "that is literally what you just said." Anyway the gist of it is we got the impression that we chose the "wrong" answer and the "correct" answer was C, consult with the care team because then we're considering the values of all involved parties. Which like 1) kicking the can, but 2) we are looping the care team in to our decisions and we are not unilaterally deciding that the parents know best.

It's so irritating because this was the first case my group 100% agreed on, we felt our justification and counter-counter-arguments were solid, and we were taking a stand on a decision. We incorporated all the feedback we've received so far this semester. Plus we were under the impression that ethics doesn't really have a "right" answer so to be made to feel like we chose the "wrong" answer (even if they didn't outright say it) and be grilled about it for 4x as long as any other group is just really demoralizing. My entire group was frustrated to no end.

TL;DR My group worked up an ethics case and felt solid about our decision and reasoning but were made to feel like we chose the "wrong" answer.
I like vet med option D) euthanasia


I forgot that you weren’t vet for a moment until I read “boy” and yeah... I was very confused how this 15 year old with terminal cancer was being repeatedly operated on instead of just supportive care and eventual euthanasia. :laugh:
 
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OH I ALSO WANTED TO RANT ABOUT A CLASS I HAD TODAY

Background: It's a once-a-week interprofessional education class and the past few weeks we've been learning about ethics by following an 8-step ethical analysis template with various cases. The first time we did this (case details are irrelevant) my group chose to refer the patient to a different provider and our facilitator suggested it wasn't the best option because we were "kicking the can down the road" so to speak, so since then we've tried to "take a stand." Also last week we got a new facilitator so now we have two.

So anyway, the case this week featured a 15-year-old boy with terminal brain cancer. He's had three surgeries so far, and each improved his condition, but the improvements were smaller and smaller each time, and each time the tumor regrew. Now the doctors are considering a fourth surgery which would only serve to prolong his life. He is "not thrilled." The parents are clearly distraught and the dad says "We'll do whatever it takes to make our little boy better."

So the options are:
A. Go with what the patient wants and do not perform the surgery.
B. Go with what the parents want and perform the surgery.
C. Consult the care team and let them decide.

So my group says "eff C, that's kicking the can down the road, and besides the care team shouldn't be allowed to unilaterally make a decision like this." We all agreed we wanted to respect the patient's wishes but state law does not allow a minor to give informed consent for medical decisions without a parent present (with some exceptions like birth control). So our plan involved a mediation session between the patient, his parents, and his care team to explain the options available, manage expectations, and hopefully come to a consensus of the best course of action for the patient. But ultimately, we decided we were going to let the parents have the final say. Option B.

Now first facilitator is super awesome. She critiques our ethics cases with stuff like "but have you considered XYZ?" and stuff like that. She's really constructive in her feedback. Second facilitator…I feel like that's what she's trying to do but she comes off kind of argumentative. When we said the law was the main basis for our decision she said something to the effect of "well the law isn't everything." :wtf: Like I understand if you want us to discuss what we should do ethically, like if the law wasn't an issue, but then say that, otherwise we're going to assume we're talking about what we should do realistically. Realistically, I do not want to lose my license for breaking the law, thank you very much. Then later she started talking about how hospital ethics committees sometimes make decisions that are in the best interest of the patients that are above the law and we were like "so you're telling us to break the law then" and she's like "well no" and we're like "that is literally what you just said." Anyway the gist of it is we got the impression that we chose the "wrong" answer and the "correct" answer was C, consult with the care team because then we're considering the values of all involved parties. Which like 1) kicking the can, but 2) we are looping the care team in to our decisions and we are not unilaterally deciding that the parents know best.

It's so irritating because this was the first case my group 100% agreed on, we felt our justification and counter-counter-arguments were solid, and we were taking a stand on a decision. We incorporated all the feedback we've received so far this semester. Plus we were under the impression that ethics doesn't really have a "right" answer so to be made to feel like we chose the "wrong" answer (even if they didn't outright say it) and be grilled about it for 4x as long as any other group is just really demoralizing. My entire group was frustrated to no end.

TL;DR My group worked up an ethics case and felt solid about our decision and reasoning but were made to feel like we chose the "wrong" answer.
Oh this is very interesting, I love ethics. I think the facilitator didn't do a great job of providing feedback and that really does suck especially to have them pick it apart when you guys worked really hard. The laws aren't black and white, because minor children actually do have a say in medical treatment in many cases, most which revolve the child being older and show maturity to be able to make such decisions, 15 year old probably falls in that, but it certainly isn't intuitive to know that.
 
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Oh this is very interesting, I love ethics. I think the facilitator didn't do a great job of providing feedback and that really does suck especially to have them pick it apart when you guys worked really hard. The laws aren't black and white, because minor children actually do have a say in medical treatment in many cases, most which revolve the child being older and show maturity to be able to make such decisions, 15 year old probably falls in that, but it certainly isn't intuitive to know that.
True, and we did consider state law. We were given the state law for when minors are allowed to consent to medical treatment as part of the prework. Under state law, minors (anyone under 18) are allowed to consent to STD treatment, birth control, pregnancy medical care, and treatment for substance abuse. For all other medical decisions, the parent or guardian has final say (as long as their decision doesn't, like, actively harm the child). The same prework also strongly suggested hosting a mediation session when a 14-18 y/o patient's wishes and their parent's wishes differ, so we incorporated that into our plan.
 
I mean as of recently my state does provide that option for terminally ill patients so still technically an option?
Has that been discussed in your ethics class at all? In vet med it’s kind of a no brainer that euthanasia is a good option for terminal patients with no quality of life. I’m guessing even though it’s legal for humans in some states it’s still a touchy subject.
 
Has that been discussed in your ethics class at all? In vet med it’s kind of a no brainer that euthanasia is a good option for terminal patients with no quality of life. I’m guessing even though it’s legal for humans in some states it’s still a touchy subject.
It has not and tbh it's so new that I don't know if it will be.
 
True, and we did consider state law. We were given the state law for when minors are allowed to consent to medical treatment as part of the prework. Under state law, minors (anyone under 18) are allowed to consent to STD treatment, birth control, pregnancy medical care, and treatment for substance abuse. For all other medical decisions, the parent or guardian has final say (as long as their decision doesn't, like, actively harm the child). The same prework also strongly suggested hosting a mediation session when a 14-18 y/o patient's wishes and their parent's wishes differ, so we incorporated that into our plan.
Interesting, our laws are a little different. I could see in certain circumstances challenging the law but I fully think your team had a good answer, sorry it didn't get a better result :(
 
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It has not and tbh it's so new that I don't know if it will be.
I feel like that’s something worth asking your professor about. It’s such a new part of human medicine (legally) that it makes sense it hasn’t made its way into the curriculum yet. But in the next few decades I’m sure doctors are going to be asked about it by their patients much more.
 
Happy birthday (tomorrow) to me. My cat is in the hospital for the night. He'll probably be fine but these were expenses and stress I didn't need.

Just to update, the kitty is doing much better. Still a slightly elevated temperature but it's come down from last night and he is eating/drinking again as of this morning. Waiting on the vet to call me again and let me know if I can pick him up today. Still kind of a drag that I had to drop a chunk of cash on him this week but at least he's doing well.
 
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Took Z in for a GP appointment at the teaching hospital at Penn. She needed some shots and a 4dx. I don't have enough small animal tech experience to safely draw blood on Z, but so help me universe, I will make sure I can take blood on my dog by the time her next physical rolls by. I have, however, been using needles in a lab animal setting for some 7 years prior to vet school, not sure if that counts for anything... maybe that makes me comfortable handling the needle/syringe? The 4th year and I were chatting about the end of Anatomy and all that jazz and I find out that she's LA and has no small animal tech experience, either. I mention that I want to make sure I get some experience teching before clinics so that I'm not fumbling around drawing blood and restraining and getting into some tricky situations or missing the vein every time. She laughs and says, yeah, it should be fine, even though she didn't get any small animal teching experience during school.

She is going to draw blood on my dog. She is going. to. draw. blood. on. my. dog.

Ok, so let's empathize... she's a 4th year on clinics. I'll be a 4th year on clinics, it's a teaching hospital.. gotta learn somehow right? She does the physical, doc comes in a rechecks everything... all is good. They remark how good of a patient Z is and exclaim they haven't seen 4.5 BCS lab in donkeys years.... (proud dad moment with them buttering me up). Doc then says, ok let's take blood... I say, Z has a nice big jugular and that has always worked in the past. Student says, she prefers lateral saphenous... I hold Z -- she's a gem -- doesn't move or flinch and the student goes in.... digs around for an eternity.... nothing. Pulls out. (I'm like god damn it). She goes in a second time.... puts the whole ****er in and is digging around and in my head (I just took anatomy.... think about everything in there!!!) Nothing, she pulls out. Z is still being a gem and I haven't made a peep. Doc says, Z is being such a good girl (but secretly I want to smack her in the head with a frying pan). The doc says Ok, do you want to try a butterfly needle? Student is like ok, sure. (My internal commentary is like wtf?? No I don't want to try a ****ing butterfly needle. Get a god damn nurse or someone who can take blood in here... she's been poked thrice for vaccines, and now we're going for a third try?????? FFS! The hospital has a 2 stick policy!!! Why are we taking advantage of a dog that's a "good" patient?) Student gets a butterfly needle and surprise, mothaf*** no blood!! At this point I'm P/O. I am very very nice and I say, "I know this is great teaching moment and Z is being a very good patient, but do you think it would be ok if we took a break as Z has been poked several times in succession and I would prefer that the next time we can get blood so maybe someone else should try?" The student looks very taken aback (I'm sorry! But you haven't been able to take blood 3 times so far and how many more before someone says something?) but the doc recovers more quickly, and says, of course, she will take blood next. I hold Z, she goes in the jugular, gets it on the first try.

I'm upset because I was too shy until after the 3rd poke to say something about an animal that is my responsibility to care for and provide the 5 freedoms for, and that meant putting Z through that BS. I know this is drawing blood, but I think I could apply this to any procedure like taking blood to doing a TPLO surgery. Should I have said something after the second poke? Do we want the resident or the board certified surgeon? Why did the chief of surgery tell me that Friendship has no residency program because people don't want to see residents when they come in?

I just have so many questions.... how many tries is ok before you stop and pass it on to someone else? Do you take advantage of good dogs and cats and break those rules to learn? Does anyone else feel like me when this **** is happening to their own pet? An animal that isn't their pet, even? (I imagine it's less for other pets because that's human nature -- we care for our own babies more than other babies -- darwinism/passing on our genes and all that even though technically our fur babies aren't our own progeny). I wonder would the 4th year have asked someone else to take blood on her dog when she didn't get it on the 3rd try? Or... do some think that it's ok to try 6 times until you get it? Do people think that it's painful for dogs to get poked by a needle or... "their pain tolerance is much higher than ours so it's fine?" Do some animals just need to be poked by us students so that future us can get it on the first or second try (barring those days that are just "not your day"?) I get it. I'll be a 4th year and on clinics and I need to learn as well... but is there a better way some one knows? From where I stand, it looks like practice on that rubber tube, and then get your 2 pokes on as many dogs as possible until you're a pro?
 
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I understand where you're coming from. Nobody is allowed to touch or draw blood on my animals at the hospital I work at except her doctor and one other tech who is exceptional at it. Otherwise I draw. My bcs 5 chocolate lab was my first draw on a jugular and I hit it. I would never touch a lateral saphenous on a good patient. Jugulars are easier to hit and less bouncy.

We have a 2 stick policy at our hospital but a lot of the techs don't follow it and will keep drawing. They get tunnel vision and feel like they have something to prove. I have gotten vocal about it and I openly tell people no when they offer to help me with my animals. They can't speak and we have to advocate for them.

And yes some people will definitely take advantage of a good patient and just keep poking and poking.
 
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And yes it is painful. You can tell when someone is digging around and the animal flinches or becomes wiggly. You should never redirect without purpose. If you're digging come out and feel again. I'd rather take two minutes to feel confident about my poke than dig in the abyss hoping to hit something because I know it's there somewhere
 
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I understand where you're coming from. Nobody is allowed to touch or draw blood on my animals at the hospital I work at except her doctor and one other tech who is exceptional at it. Otherwise I draw. My bcs 5 chocolate lab was my first draw on a jugular and I hit it. I would never touch a lateral saphenous on a good patient. Jugulars are easier to hit and less bouncy.

We have a 2 stick policy at our hospital but a lot of the techs don't follow it and will keep drawing. They get tunnel vision and feel like they have something to prove. I have gotten vocal about it and I openly tell people no when they offer to help me with my animals. They can't speak and we have to advocate for them.

And yes some people will definitely take advantage of a good patient and just keep poking and poking.
At least you have an in-shape large dog. I’ve had people come in asking for ridiculous things on their 5 lb yorkie. The problem is, their dog is on some Chinese herbs which all have turmeric in them, so her blood is pretty thin. One poke and if you don’t immediately get a vein you’re just not using that vein.

But back to your point and Staff’s point, I don’t understand people that will fish extensively for a vein at all, let alone IN FRONT OF the pet owner. Like... what?
 
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As a human who recently had nurses fumbling around trying to put in an IV catheter in my own arm and fail 5 times until they finally got it in my hand (freaking ow) that **** is not painless. If you don't get it in 2-3 pokes then you get the tech who never misses to get it done, teaching/learning should not take a priority over patient well being, even if it is "just a blood draw."
 
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At least you have an in-shape large dog. I’ve had people come in asking for ridiculous things on their 5 lb yorkie. The problem is, their dog is on some Chinese herbs which all have turmeric in them, so her blood is pretty thin. One poke and if you don’t immediately get a vein you’re just not using that vein.

But back to your point and Staff’s point, I don’t understand people that will fish extensively for a vein at all, let alone IN FRONT OF the pet owner. Like... what?

Yes there are definitely hard blood draws especially on small, old, sick animals which is why it is even more important that you give up and have someone else try before you blow every vein on the animal.
 
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My philosophy is that you don't have to be the best blood draw ever, I am certainly not, but know your limitations and when it's time to give up.
 
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I feel you with the public transit. I don't often run into people blasting their music but I do live in Denver so uh…there's a persistent odor…
ETA: But I get a public transit pass included with tuition which saves me like $90/month in gas so I can't complain

All hail Blucifer!

Has that been discussed in your ethics class at all? In vet med it’s kind of a no brainer that euthanasia is a good option for terminal patients with no quality of life. I’m guessing even though it’s legal for humans in some states it’s still a touchy subject.

It's actually pretty surprising how frequently euthanasia is not considered a viable option in vet med to me. Go to the I Love Veterinary Medicine Facebook page and read through the comments. There are plenty of vet med professionals that feel like euthanasia is always a failure, whether on the part of a financially conscious owner or an incompetent doctor.
 
I understand where you're coming from. Nobody is allowed to touch or draw blood on my animals at the hospital I work at except her doctor and one other tech who is exceptional at it. Otherwise I draw. My bcs 5 chocolate lab was my first draw on a jugular and I hit it. I would never touch a lateral saphenous on a good patient. Jugulars are easier to hit and less bouncy.

We have a 2 stick policy at our hospital but a lot of the techs don't follow it and will keep drawing. They get tunnel vision and feel like they have something to prove. I have gotten vocal about it and I openly tell people no when they offer to help me with my animals. They can't speak and we have to advocate for them.

Interesting. I can see people in real life trying to give you crap about not just your dogs but about you saying something when you see something. But after going through that experience I am definitely in the same boat as you.

And yes some people will definitely take advantage of a good patient and just keep poking and poking.

Sadness

At least you have an in-shape large dog. I’ve had people come in asking for ridiculous things on their 5 lb yorkie. The problem is, their dog is on some Chinese herbs which all have turmeric in them, so her blood is pretty thin. One poke and if you don’t immediately get a vein you’re just not using that vein.

But back to your point and Staff’s point, I don’t understand people that will fish extensively for a vein at all, let alone IN FRONT OF the pet owner. Like... what?

Yes there are definitely hard blood draws especially on small, old, sick animals which is why it is even more important that you give up and have someone else try before you blow every vein on the animal.

Yikes. You guys make me laugh (in a weird morbid way, because there isn't another reaction to the second hand embarrassment of watching an owner get frustrated with a tech that they are watching fishing around). Also, I have a long way to go -- learn how to take blood properly, then attempt at level advanced patients.

My philosophy is that you don't have to be the best blood draw ever, I am certainly not, but know your limitations and when it's time to give up.

I like it.

As a human who recently had nurses fumbling around trying to put in an IV catheter in my own arm and fail 5 times until they finally got it in my hand (freaking ow) that **** is not painless. If you don't get it in 2-3 pokes then you get the tech who never misses to get it done, teaching/learning should not take a priority over patient well being, even if it is "just a blood draw."

Thanks for chiming in :) Glad that someone other than us newer to school peeps is of a similar mind. I really like this: "teaching/learning should not take a priority over patient well being, even if it is "just a blood draw."". Also, congrats on the little one!!! Clearly I've missed a lot while being entrenched in classes!
 
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Yeah things like that are how you turn your good patients into ones that become nervous over time. I get the teaching aspect, I really do. But as kcough said, patient well-being comes first. When I was learning to do blood draws and place catheters at my job in private practice, I got two chances per animal to get it right before someone else stepped in. I don't think it should be any different in a teaching hospital setting. I think it's good to stick to something like this because it encourages people to slow down and make sure each try really counts.
 
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All hail Blucifer!



It's actually pretty surprising how frequently euthanasia is not considered a viable option in vet med to me. Go to the I Love Veterinary Medicine Facebook page and read through the comments. There are plenty of vet med professionals that feel like euthanasia is always a failure, whether on the part of a financially conscious owner or an incompetent doctor.
Were you the one I saw on a post today talking to people who were arguing about whether it was a good idea for a practice in South Africa to euthanize and test a rabid dog? I remember somebody saying something about a snap test
 
Were you the one I saw on a post today talking to people who were arguing about whether it was a good idea for a practice in South Africa to euthanize and test a rabid dog? I remember somebody saying something about a snap test

That was me. A lady posted that there's a rabies snap test and I was like, "What you talkin' about?"
 
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