UT Southwestern vs Case Western

[jojahtechpremed]

Trying to decide between UT Southwestern and Case Western. Was initially leaning Southwestern but now I'm pretty split. I am in the position where both would have almost identical annual costs so the financial aspect is essentially irrelevant. I'd be out of state for both schools.

UT Southwestern
Pros:
- Dallas is a pretty cool city, larger and more things going on than Cleveland
- Nicer weather
- Strong research opportunities
- Great opportunities for clinical exposure - sees cases from all over Texas and has hospitals like Parkland
- Starts in August

Cons:
- Nothing against Texas/Texans but vast majority of students are from Texas (it is a state supported school so that is to be expected). It's only a con relative to Case since Case, as a private school, has students from all over the country
- Slightly less well known than Case Western (thinking ahead to applying to residency programs)
- Not as impressive of a match list as Case Western in recent years. It's certainly still good, but after comparing both Case seems to have more students match to more competitive specialties and to better programs. Not sure if that's more to do with the schools themselves or if it is simply because Southwestern students prefer different specialties. Also since most Southwestern students are Texas students, more of them may want to stay in state for residency. Not sure, just guessing.
- New curriculum is only a year old; the incoming class will be the second to go through it. From what I've gathered it sounds like the school has been doing a good job rolling it out and is very responsive to student feedback but there will inevitably still be a few things being worked out

Case Western
Pros:
- Well known pretty much all over the country
- Very impressive match results from past several years. Not sure if it's actually because Case sets people up better for competitive specialties or if Case students just prefer to go into those. But regardless, it's hard to not be impressed.
- Also has good clinical opportunities - UH and Cleveland Clinic
- Student body is more diverse (geographically, not necessarily ethnically or otherwise)

Cons:
- Cleveland just doesn't seem like a very exciting or vibrant place to live. Seems to be some recent revitalization but in general it seems like kind of a dying place. Coming from someone who's only been to Cleveland twice so feel free to tell me how wrong I am!
- Much worse climate/weather compared to Dallas. Not a fan of the cold and I know Cleveland would be brutal but I'm willing to put up with it for a few years if it was the right choice
- Starts a full month earlier than Southwestern, in early July. Not a huge concern in the long run, just means I'll have very little time off between finishing up work and starting school


I was leaning pretty strongly towards UT Southwestern initially. A scholarship offer from Case that makes it equivalent in cost to UT Southwestern made me start thinking again. And then most recently I compared the match lists and that has led me to become unsure between the two. I don't know what I want to do yet but there's maybe a 20 or 30% chance I choose a competitive surgical specialty like neurosurgery or orthopedic surgery. And for those there's a pretty stark difference between Case and Southwestern.

Anyhow, I'd appreciate any thoughts you folks out there have. Pros/cons about either place, why pros/cons I have about either are good or bad, etc. Thanks!

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[CargoPants]

UTSW MS4 here. TBH I have no real idea what Cleveland is like.

Do you have ties to any of the areas? If finances are the same, I would recommend going to the geographical location you would have the most support and the greatest chance of enjoying the area. Dallas is really great, but you'll need a car. Our student body is mandated to be 90% Texans, but there is a lot of diversity in terms of culture/race/ethnicity.

A lot of people on the forums will tell you that you shouldn't pick a school based on the match list. I personally think using it as a small factor is fine. You are right in that a lot of people want to stay in Texas after UTSW. Its a huge plus if you want to stay in Texas, perhaps a small negative if you want to leave.

 

[naijacardriodoc]

Dallas

 

[jojahtechpremed]

UTSW MS4 here. TBH I have no real idea what Cleveland is like.

Do you have ties to any of the areas? If finances are the same, I would recommend going to the geographical location you would have the most support and the greatest chance of enjoying the area. Dallas is really great, but you'll need a car. Our student body is mandated to be 90% Texans, but there is a lot of diversity in terms of culture/race/ethnicity.

A lot of people on the forums will tell you that you shouldn't pick a school based on the match list. I personally think using it as a small factor is fine. You are right in that a lot of people want to stay in Texas after UTSW. Its a huge plus if you want to stay in Texas, perhaps a small negative if you want to leave.

No real ties to either place. I think I would enjoy living in Dallas more than Cleveland and I'd need a car in either place so that's not a huge concern. I guess one of my concerns as an out of state student is (potentially) being limited come residency time. Maybe I'll like Texas a lot and want to stay but I don't know that now, and the fact that it may be more difficult to go elsewhere is one of the things I'm considering. It seems like a decent number of students go out of state anyway, and some to great programs, but the large majority stayed in state.

As an M4, was there a general feeling among you and your classmates? Did most of you guys want to stay in Texas for residency? Did people feel limited when applying to programs out of state? I also noticed that, compared to Case at least, fewer students go into the surgical specialties. Is that because people just prefer primary care and other specialties or because they at all felt limited in applying to more competitive programs?

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[navigator]

No real ties to either place. I think I would enjoy living in Dallas more than Cleveland and I'd need a car in either place so that's not a huge concern. I guess one of my concerns as an out of state student is (potentially) being limited come residency time. Maybe I'll like Texas a lot and want to stay but I don't know that now, and the fact that it may be more difficult to go elsewhere is one of the things I'm considering. It seems like a decent number of students go out of state anyway, and some to great programs, but the large majority stayed in state.

As an M4, was there a general feeling among you and your classmates? Did most of you guys want to stay in Texas for residency? Did people feel limited when applying to programs out of state? I also noticed that, compared to Case at least, fewer students go into the surgical specialties. Is that because people just prefer primary care and other specialties or because they at all felt limited in applying to more competitive programs?

Thanks for your thoughts!

So speaking as a Texan, I have to first say congrats on getting into UTSW (or any Texas school really) as an OOSer. My first reaction was to say go to UTSW because of the lower cost! But if it's the same price, go where you'd be happier.

If you didn't know, TX has a huge shortage of PCPs, which is why many of the schools here push for primary care. It shouldn't be limiting in any way though. The reason most med students stay here is because there are great surgical programs in-state and so why would you want to leave? However, given the fact that your roots are elsewhere, I can understand your hesitation. I personally don't think you'll have any issues matching anywhere from either of the two places. Congrats!

 

[CargoPants]

No real ties to either place. I think I would enjoy living in Dallas more than Cleveland and I'd need a car in either place so that's not a huge concern. I guess one of my concerns as an out of state student is (potentially) being limited come residency time. Maybe I'll like Texas a lot and want to stay but I don't know that now, and the fact that it may be more difficult to go elsewhere is one of the things I'm considering. It seems like a decent number of students go out of state anyway, and some to great programs, but the large majority stayed in state.

As an M4, was there a general feeling among you and your classmates? Did most of you guys want to stay in Texas for residency? Did people feel limited when applying to programs out of state? I also noticed that, compared to Case at least, fewer students go into the surgical specialties. Is that because people just prefer primary care and other specialties or because they at all felt limited in applying to more competitive programs?

Thanks for your thoughts!

I think Dallas would be more enjoyable than Cleveland too.

I'd venture that half wanted to stay, half wanted to go. For the competitive specialities, I feel like the people may have fallen down their match list a little, and ended up in a Texas program in the middle of their list. I applied neurology and felt as though outside programs didn't really know UTSW, and other OOS applicants rarely applied to Texas schools.

As for why fewer students go into surgical specialties, idk to be honest. UTSW has a strong IM reputation and home program, and I feel as though EM and peds were particularly popular amongst my friends this year.

 

[jojahtechpremed]

So speaking as a Texan, I have to first say congrats on getting into UTSW (or any Texas school really) as an OOSer. My first reaction was to say go to UTSW because of the lower cost! But if it's the same price, go where you'd be happier.

If you didn't know, TX has a huge shortage of PCPs, which is why many of the schools here push for primary care. It shouldn't be limiting in any way though. The reason most med students stay here is because there are great surgical programs in-state and so why would you want to leave? However, given the fact that your roots are elsewhere, I can understand your hesitation. I personally don't think you'll have any issues matching anywhere from either of the two places. Congrats!

Thanks! I was pleasantly surprised to get an interview and be accepted to UTSW! It makes sense why a lot of people would want to stay in Texas. But it's nice hearing that going to one or the other probably won't make much of a difference. And then there's CargoPants' reply which makes me think there might actually be a difference haha

I think Dallas would be more enjoyable than Cleveland too.

I'd venture that half wanted to stay, half wanted to go. For the competitive specialities, I feel like the people may have fallen down their match list a little, and ended up in a Texas program in the middle of their list. I applied neurology and felt as though outside programs didn't really know UTSW, and other OOS applicants rarely applied to Texas schools.

As for why fewer students go into surgical specialties, idk to be honest. UTSW has a strong IM reputation and home program, and I feel as though EM and peds were particularly popular amongst my friends this year.

It's interesting you feel like programs outside of Texas didn't know UTSW as well, that's where some of my concern was rooted but I didn't know if it was all that true or not. But I guess each person will have their own opinion on that. I hadn't really considered how strong the IM program is and why that may affect what people decide to specialize in, so that could explain some of the differences in choice of specialty. It's really helpful hearing from someone in your position!

 

[Dence]

I strongly disagree with the notion that UTSW is less reputable than Case. Cleveland Clinic, sure, but not Case itself.

It sounds like you're leaning towards UTSW to me. No sane residency program director in this country would think less of an applicant for being from UTSW.

And if we're talking competitive specialties, UTSW is top 10 for derm residencies on Doximity.

 

[JMMTB]

Where would you ideally see yourself going for residency? East Coast/Midwest or West coast/south? I'm from the West and very few people know about Case, but they do recognize the difficulty that it takes for an OOSer to get into a TX school. But those on the East have definitely heard of Case.

If they weren't equal in money I would definitely choose the less expensive school, but seeing as they are comparable, I would go with the school that matches your end goals. If you want to do Neurosurgery - Case - during their neurology rotation, they can do 2 weeks in surg and get to know the residents pretty well, which is why they match so many into Neurosurgery.

Either way you can't go wrong. Good luck in your decision.

 

[Heisenberg 41]

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[navigator]

Here's another thing about Texas -- the state is BIG. You can drive around for hours from anywhere and still be in the state. Many people elect to do their elective rotations at places like UTMB, Baylor, and UTHSCSA, which have great residencies and are closer to family. Sure, Case's match list might look a bit more geographically diverse, but Ohio doesn't have the diversity in residency selection that TX does. Case students probably go out of state because they have to, and often, the places they go to might have better reputations than institutions like Tech, Foster, and UT-Houston.

Is it possible that Case knows you've been accepted at UTSW? The fact that they gave you that hefty scholarship suggests they really want you. And trust me, the weather in Dallas isn't really that great, particularly from May to October- we have AC in Texas for a reason

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/case-western-vs-southwestern.7894/

 

[darkamgine]

I also interviewed at both schools (MSTP) so I will add some thoughts that haven't been mentioned as much.

UTSW-
very good for academic medicine and IM (reputation)
brand new hospitals
new curriculum is a work in progress (seems like students were very busy/tired)
matches 25% of students at UTSW, and 10% at Baylor, 50% stay in Texas.
Basic research is very strong
Did not hear too much about translational/clinical research.
Didn't get a feel for the city since it was my only time there.

Case Western-
very established curriculum with high Step 1 scores
lots of freedom with the schedule
very happy and diverse group of students
3 hospital systems with very different environments/patients (UH, CCF, Metro) for rotations
match list is very strong especially for specializing because you have a lot of options for rotations
Lots of clinical and translational research
Basic research is also good but not quite as extensive as UTSW
Cold and can snow from November to April
I hear a lot of natives say Cleveland gets a bad rep but it is not bad as a student

I think it depends on what is important to you. Case really offers a lot of great opportunities and flexibility but potentially the cold and Cleveland are the main downsides. You will probably have a lot of connections to places all over the U.S since the match list is geographically diverse. If you dislike the cold, there are certain ways to get around that (getting a car with a garage and living relatively close to campus).
UTSW is great if you like the weather and Dallas culture/environment. However, I do think the curriculum needs more work and the match options outside of Texas are more limited compared to Case. If you want to stay for residency in Texas (particularly for IM or residencies for which UTSW is well-known), UTSW should be ranked higher.
Both should get you to where you want to go as long as you can thrive in that type of environment.
If you have more questions, you can pm me.

 

[jojahtechpremed]

Thanks for all of the replies everyone, it's really helpful getting to hear what you all think. I know both are very well respected schools and most residency programs wouldn't consider a student from one that much differently than a student from the other. But there are people also saying UTSW matches a lot of people in Texas and nearby states.

Right now I can see myself staying in the South (native Georgian) or going out west... don't really see myself living in a super cold place long term. Based on what you're saying @JMMTB that'd make UTSW a pretty good choice.

If I knew for sure I wanted to do neurosurgery or ortho I'd lean more towards Case but I still have a lot of uncertainty with deciding a specialty.

@navigator those are good points about Texas... I guess being a non-Texan I don't truly appreciate how big it is. And I think it's definitely a possibility Case is aware of my Southwestern acceptance... it's quite the coincidence the scholarship offer I received ends up making it nearly identical in annual cost. On the one hand it'd be neat to live in a place with real winter and experience that for a few years but on the other... it might just be really miserable haha

Thanks for adding to the list @darkamgine , those are some other helpful points to consider. I didn't do the math to see what percentage of students stay in Texas but 50% is pretty high, but now I'm thinking that's a combination of people wanting to stay in Texas and the strength of UTSW's home residency programs.

It really does seem like either would be a perfectly good choice, and I'm pretty much splitting hairs at this point trying to put one over the other. Gonna keep thinking about it some more, but I think I'm still slightly in favor of Southwestern

 

[CargoPants]

Thanks for all of the replies everyone, it's really helpful getting to hear what you all think. I know both are very well respected schools and most residency programs wouldn't consider a student from one that much differently than a student from the other. But there are people also saying UTSW matches a lot of people in Texas and nearby states.

Right now I can see myself staying in the South (native Georgian) or going out west... don't really see myself living in a super cold place long term. Based on what you're saying @JMMTB that'd make UTSW a pretty good choice.

If I knew for sure I wanted to do neurosurgery or ortho I'd lean more towards Case but I still have a lot of uncertainty with deciding a specialty.

@navigator those are good points about Texas... I guess being a non-Texan I don't truly appreciate how big it is. And I think it's definitely a possibility Case is aware of my Southwestern acceptance... it's quite the coincidence the scholarship offer I received ends up making it nearly identical in annual cost. On the one hand it'd be neat to live in a place with real winter and experience that for a few years but on the other... it might just be really miserable haha

Thanks for adding to the list @darkamgine , those are some other helpful points to consider. I didn't do the math to see what percentage of students stay in Texas but 50% is pretty high, but now I'm thinking that's a combination of people wanting to stay in Texas and the strength of UTSW's home residency programs.

It really does seem like either would be a perfectly good choice, and I'm pretty much splitting hairs at this point trying to put one over the other. Gonna keep thinking about it some more, but I think I'm still slightly in favor of Southwestern

If you are from the south, I would definitely recommend UTSW. I feel as though UTSW, Baylor, and Emory are the clear top tier in the gulf states/southwest programs. Spreading your connections from Georgia to Texas can be important during residency interviews. It's somewhat silly, but if you have no geographical ties to residency program's location/state/region, program directors may be wary of extending you an invitation for an interview. You say you see yourself staying in the south/west, UTSW would be your best choice for doing that.

 

[ed*26]

On the one hand it'd be neat to live in a place with real winter and experience that for a few years but on the other... it might just be really miserable haha

As a native midwesterner, you would be miserable. It's neat for a couple weeks around Christmas, and then you get really tired of the air being cold enough to kill you.

Regardless, it seems like you can't really go wrong! I have friends who live in Cleveland and love it.