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I chose a really good research opportunity over focusing on the mcat, I ended up screwing myself over with the mcat and it is the reason I’m waitlisted right now, but the research experience was the best thing that happened to me in all of undergrad. Thankfully I am accepted to a top DO program in my state, but IMHO, MCAT matters much more than any other activity, even research.
oh, you misunderstood me. In my situation that was WAY after MCAT. It is just that my mom didn't really understand the process at all.... THis is to speak to the fact that this process is very complicated and changes a lot.
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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I was trying to explain to my mom how the process works.... she gave me a long lecture on how instead of wasting my time doing research (since I am not going for PhD), I should just study with books, and I will be ok. hahahahah. I TRIED explaining to her that research is required, but she just continued lecturing me. ahhahhahah
I mean, research isn't really required. It is if you're applying to research-heavy schools, but not for the rest. But it certainly isn't a waste of time as long as you're not doing it instead of the other, more important stuff.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive

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What’s really interesting to me is how much more of a challenge it will be 15 years from NOW haha
Or salaries will go into the toilet and no one will want to be a doctor, so it'll be easy AF.
 
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Or salaries will go into the toilet and no one will want to be a doctor, so it'll be easy AF.
My wife did her family medicine residency in the mid 90’s. The year she entered, graduating residents were earning ~$150K. During her residency, primary care salaries were cut year after year. By the end of her residency, new family docs were earning $90-100K. To the average Joe on the street maybe that sounds like good money but when you’ve accumulated $130K in educational debt, it’s not so much. And it’s only worse for primary care docs now.
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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My wife did her family medicine residency in the mid 90’s. The year she entered, graduating residents were earning ~$150K. During her residency, primary care salaries were cut year after year. By the end of her residency, new family docs were earning $90-100K. To the average Joe on the street maybe that sounds like good money but when you’ve accumulated $130K in educational debt, it’s not so much. And it’s only worse for primary care docs now.
I don’t know where she’s working, but I have never met a primary care doc who makes that kind of money. 90-100k is PA money. There are tons of jobs in primary care that pay way more than that and aren’t ****ty.
 
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ReturnToMed

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I feel the pain. But instead of people at work it is family members for me. Decided not to tell anyone at work because they would start asking as well. Next time, I think it is safe only to keep it to myself.
I couldn't keep it to myself since i had to ask for time off for interviews so it was known. my family knows how things are and we just avoid the topic for the most part.
 

ReturnToMed

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I was trying to explain to my mom how the process works.... she gave me a long lecture on how instead of wasting my time doing research (since I am not going for PhD), I should just study with books, and I will be ok. hahahahah. I TRIED explaining to her that research is required, but she just continued lecturing me. ahhahhahah
Parents and older physicians really have no idea what it is like. They think GPA and MCAT and a few extracurriculars get you in. No it is the whole thing. Because you can get held back by a single thing even if everything else is perfect. It could be GPA, personal statement, or MCAT.
 

ReturnToMed

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My wife did her family medicine residency in the mid 90’s. The year she entered, graduating residents were earning ~$150K. During her residency, primary care salaries were cut year after year. By the end of her residency, new family docs were earning $90-100K. To the average Joe on the street maybe that sounds like good money but when you’ve accumulated $130K in educational debt, it’s not so much. And it’s only worse for primary care docs now.
People talk about there being primary care but don't realize that primary care is completely underincentivized. Not well compensated for lost time off. If you are going to be earning 90-100k, you are better off just doing something else (this is completely from a cost/benefit perspective). In addition primary care is being completely taken over by APRNs. At that point why put yourself through the grind of an MD when you can more or less do the same thing as an APRN.
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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People talk about there being primary care but don't realize that primary care is completely underincentivized. Not well compensated for lost time off. If you are going to be earning 90-100k, you are better off just doing something else (this is completely from a cost/benefit perspective). In addition primary care is being completely taken over by APRNs. At that point why put yourself through the grind of an MD when you can more or less do the same thing as an APRN.
You will not be earning 90-100k as a physician unless you are working extremely part time. The average salary for FM docs is over 200k, and it’s one of the specialties with higher rates of part time employment. I have no idea where that other person is working, but that area is the extreme exception to the rule.


 

ReturnToMed

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You will not be earning 90-100k as a physician unless you are working extremely part time. The average salary for FM docs is over 200k, and it’s one of the specialties with higher rates of part time employment. I have no idea where that other person is working, but that area is the extreme exception to the rule.


Just to add this in there. I wonder how much of that is from being an actual physician. Around where I am, a fair amount of primary care physicians have APRNs do a lot of the real medicine and then they do like "health" supplements and stuff. Could just be a one off thing where I am.
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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Just to add this in there. I wonder how much of that is from being an actual physician. Around where I am, a fair amount of primary care physicians have APRNs do a lot of the real medicine and then they do like "health" supplements and stuff. Could just be a one off thing where I am.
Yeah if you talk to the primary care docs, most of them will tell you that midlevels are not a threat. Most patients still want a doctor, and more and more of them want a doctor every year as they see how substandard the care is from midlevels.
 

ReturnToMed

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Yeah if you talk to the primary care docs, most of them will tell you that midlevels are not a threat. Most patients still want a doctor, and more and more of them want a doctor every year as they see how substandard the care is from midlevels.
That substandard care thing is too real especially when it comes to writing medications.
 
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introp445

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Parents and older physicians really have no idea what it is like. They think GPA and MCAT and a few extracurriculars get you in. No it is the whole thing. Because you can get held back by a single thing even if everything else is perfect. It could be GPA, personal statement, or MCAT.
So true. My parents were confused as to how I was getting waitlisted at places. People just don’t get that an interview isn’t a sure acceptance
 

drchs

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This MD/PhD adcom posted data from their own school and it appears movement is almost done, obviously MD/PhD is different but still... :(
You’re worrying too much.
 
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Don't think MD/PhD programs are generalizable to MD programs as they are such a small percentage of a class, their small size allows adcoms to reach out personally to gauge interest and not every school has them.

That said, as everyone knows, the overall percentage of folks who get off waitlists is rather small, given how many people are put on waitlists at most schools, >250.

There will still be movement well into July, likely drips, like ice melting, not a flood. Also largely school specific.
 
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I agree with you, but life's not fair. Also, one does not have to go to med school at at 21. One can work for a few years and also work on building a good app. Time mgt, discipline, work history are all positives.

"Life's not fair" shouldn't be used as a rationale for terrible policies. Medical schools have very few incentives to recruit students from lower SES and it shows.

Yes. Students can take off 5-10 years and work before medical school, but you've just drastically decreased their chance of even applying.

Medical schools reap what they sow. Patients suffer as a result

-Fewer doctors from low income backgrounds yield fewer doctors in low resource settings and primary care
-Fewer hispanic doctors who speak spanish (tend to be from low income background) yield fewer doctors that can effectively communicate with the growing hispanic population in the US


You effectively "select" for people that care about medicine for prestige, future income, or because their parents did it. No wonder so many physicians hate their jobs.
 

FlyerScribe

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People talk about there being primary care but don't realize that primary care is completely underincentivized. Not well compensated for lost time off. If you are going to be earning 90-100k, you are better off just doing something else (this is completely from a cost/benefit perspective). In addition primary care is being completely taken over by APRNs. At that point why put yourself through the grind of an MD when you can more or less do the same thing as an APRN.
So I've had the privilege of shadowing a great primary care doc. After working with this doc, I've come to a theory and that is that many primary care docs/practices are bad at business. There are a lot of incentives built into the ACA and insurance policies (UHRC specifically) that are not taking advantage of. This doc made over 170k for just making sure his patient's we're doing the regular preventative care they should do (like a pt with diabetes getting regular eye exams, or making sure pts are filling rx). These landmarks are also set to reasonable standards like only 70% compliance for an extra bonus. He had to fill out a lot of paperwork but it was easy "extra money." So my point is that the business model is there to make good money, many aren't taking advantage of it or are "competing" themselves out of the market.
 

ReturnToMed

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"Life's not fair" shouldn't be used as a rationale for terrible policies. Medical schools have very few incentives to recruit students from lower SES and it shows.

Yes. Students can take off 5-10 years and work before medical school, but you've just drastically decreased their chance of even applying.

Medical schools reap what they sow. Patients suffer as a result

-Fewer doctors from low income backgrounds yield fewer doctors in low resource settings and primary care
-Fewer hispanic doctors who speak spanish (tend to be from low income background) yield fewer doctors that can effectively communicate with the growing hispanic population in the US


You effectively "select" for people that care about medicine for prestige, future income, or because their parents did it. No wonder so many physicians hate their jobs.
I think most people regardless of what their job is usual tend to hate it or at least dislike it to some degree because it gets rather mundane for them.
 
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ReturnToMed

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So I've had the privilege of shadowing a great primary care doc. After working with this doc, I've come to a theory and that is that many primary care docs/practices are bad at business. There are a lot of incentives built into the ACA and insurance policies (UHRC specifically) that are not taking advantage of. This doc made over 170k for just making sure his patient's we're doing the regular preventative care they should do (like a pt with diabetes getting regular eye exams, or making sure pts are filling rx). These landmarks are also set to reasonable standards like only 70% compliance for an extra bonus. He had to fill out a lot of paperwork but it was easy "extra money." So my point is that the business model is there to make good money, many aren't taking advantage of it or are "competing" themselves out of the market.
It is very time consuming to fill out the paper work despite it "being easy money" and often insurance companies assume you have a department dedicated to doing a lot of the paperwork which most private practices don't. I do agree most physicians are bad at business.
 
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So true. My parents were confused as to how I was getting waitlisted at places. People just don’t get that an interview isn’t a sure acceptance
I was waitlisted everywhere I interviewed. Felt like the interviews went well overall. This made me surprissd that I didn't get 1 acceptance. Did you feel this way too?
 

Goro

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"Life's not fair" shouldn't be used as a rationale for terrible policies. Medical schools have very few incentives to recruit students from lower SES and it shows.

Yes. Students can take off 5-10 years and work before medical school, but you've just drastically decreased their chance of even applying.

Medical schools reap what they sow. Patients suffer as a result

-Fewer doctors from low income backgrounds yield fewer doctors in low resource settings and primary care
-Fewer hispanic doctors who speak spanish (tend to be from low income background) yield fewer doctors that can effectively communicate with the growing hispanic population in the US


You effectively "select" for people that care about medicine for prestige, future income, or because their parents did it. No wonder so many physicians hate their jobs.
Med schools actively recruit students from URM populations. The problem is that fewer URMs apply to med schools than ORMs. We already know that patient outcomes ride on it.

But enough thread hijacking.
 
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So this is the first time I have ever been to his website and I am reading there is something possibly delaying the waitlist. Can someone please explain in a concise message what happened and what the future holds for waitlisted applicants.
 
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So this is the first time I have ever been to his website and I am reading there is something possibly delaying the waitlist. Can someone please explain in a concise message what happened and what the future holds for waitlisted applicants.
In the most concise way to put it... nobody knows and it’s all speculation. If you want all the speculation there’s plenty of pages to read through on this thread starting 4/30 and onward... but again it’s all speculation.
 
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@gyngyn

Many of us on the WL are more vulnerable to receiving bad financial aid packages because we can’t always receive it in time to make a decision or because scholarships are used up.

Are private loans or institutional loans ever really covered by loan forgiveness programs? How common is that?
 
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@gyngyn

Many of us on the WL are more vulnerable to receiving bad financial aid packages because we can’t always receive it in time to make a decision or because scholarships are used up.

Are private loans or institutional loans ever really covered by loan forgiveness programs? How common is that?
Loan forgiveness isn’t really a thing I think. I wouldn’t rely on it.
 

FlyerScribe

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It is very time consuming to fill out the paper work despite it "being easy money" and often insurance companies assume you have a department dedicated to doing a lot of the paperwork which most private practices don't. I do agree most physicians are bad at business.
Your right. And it was time consuming. And annoyed him very much (he filled out much of the paperwork) but the time investment paid off (from what I gathered). Obviously I have a limited view of the complete financial breakdowns but he seemed to make it work well. It was also a private practice with 4-5 employees and an NP. It was eye opening for sure, seeing it work right, bc everyone is always (mostly on SDN/Reddit) super pessimistic about primary care... This would be interesting topic for its own post... Good luck fellow waitlistees!!!
 

gyngyn

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@gyngyn

Many of us on the WL are more vulnerable to receiving bad financial aid packages because we can’t always receive it in time to make a decision or because scholarships are used up.

Are private loans or institutional loans ever really covered by loan forgiveness programs? How common is that?
There are state programs Loan Repayment Program | Medical Board of California (in addition to federal ones like the NHSC) that forgive indebtedness depending on the field in which you practice or where you work.
In CA, I am aware of at least one private, non-profit that does, as well.
 
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gyngyn

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So this is the first time I have ever been to his website and I am reading there is something possibly delaying the waitlist. Can someone please explain in a concise message what happened and what the future holds for waitlisted applicants.
This is the first cycle in which the organization that oversaw the rules of conduct for schools and applicants stopped doing so.
In preparation for this, schools altered their application strategies. Unexpected consequences ensued.
 
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This is the first cycle in which the organization that oversaw the rules of conduct for schools and applicants stopped doing so.
In preparation for this, schools altered their application strategies. Unexpected consequences ensued.
I could be wrong, but I'd expect that things are mostly unchanged? Schools have many years of experience protecting yield and seeing which applicants get multiple acceptances.
Perhaps WL movement started later this cycle than others, but it is likely mostly over, just like it is near June of most app cycles. Are there really significant "consequences", or changes to this app cycle vs. others? No, right?

I do not see any significant consequences to med schools or applicants (besides time wasted by med schools, unfortunately)
 
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965978

This is the first cycle in which the organization that oversaw the rules of conduct for schools and applicants stopped doing so.
In preparation for this, schools altered their application strategies. Unexpected consequences ensued.
Are you still committed to your stance that significant waitlist movement will occur in June?

Please make my day gyngyn :(
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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This MD/PhD adcom posted data from their own school and it appears movement is almost done, obviously MD/PhD is different but still... :(
Definitely cannot generalize MD/PhD to MD. Not the same at all.
 

gyngyn

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I could be wrong, but I'd expect that things are mostly unchanged? Schools have many years of experience protecting yield and seeing which applicants get multiple acceptances.
Perhaps WL movement started later this cycle than others, but it is likely mostly over, just like it is near June of most app cycles. Are there really significant "consequences", or changes to this app cycle vs. others? No, right?

I do not see any significant consequences to med schools or applicants (besides time wasted by med schools, unfortunately)
Things have definitely changed.
 

introp445

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After this past week, I've given up on this cycle. One school had a lot of movement and the other hand none, but my situation didn't change. Now I'm trying to figure out how I can re-write a new personal statement within the week, ekh.
I don’t think it has to be a completely new PS. I’d use your first as s starting off point
 
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I don’t think it has to be a completely new PS. I’d use your first as s starting off point
I agree. What you wrote about the first time should be true and an important part of your story. I basically edited mine; removing unimportant information, changing sentence structure, and adding new insights. Believe it or not, you have grown over the year, and with enough reflection, these edits/updates will come to you. Good luck!
 
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My waitlist school states they give feedback in May for applicants who are invited to interview but not accepted. I'm still on the waitlist, but do you think they'd be amenable to giving feedback?
[/QUOTE

That's so nice! It sounds like it is only for applicants that are ultimately rejected, but I don't think it would hurt to call and ask. Most admission offices are really nice and receptive to questions.
 
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Columbia just told what I assume is the vast majority of us waitlisters to go f*** ourselves and enjoy our hundreds of thousands in student debt because they've had so few withdrawals... so much for the Ivies and trickle-down waitlist economics this year :hungover: