Matthew9Thirtyfive

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Matthew,

Your views are naive and your perspectives are one of a victim.
I don't think they're naive. I think 7 years in the military has taught me the value of honesty and integrity. And I got accepted to multiple medical schools, so I'm not a victim.

You neglect to cite that as, medical school applicants, we participate, collectively, in an insanity. Take, for instance, applicants to the top tier medical schools. Every year, at least 75% of applicants to these schools have ZERO chance of admission. Yet we do it, like lemmings to the sea. This burdens the system, perhaps preventing the kind of personal feedback for which you advocate. We have agency here, in fact, we are willing actors in a collective madness.
I agree with you, but I also think that applicants should take a hard look at their applications and apply to places they are target applicants for with maybe one or two dream schools thrown in. Not just shotgun apps to dozens of schools they have no business applying to.

Think about the myriad ways we compromise ourselves in our essays trying to convince admission committees, for example, "I love Cincy because I have always been a fan of Joey Votto and the Reds."

Think about all the volunteer activities we participate in that are rather meaningless and we have little interest in, but do it to "check the box" and convince adcoms we have a heart.
And I don't think that's right either. I've posted about that elsewhere on this site, but we were talking about the other side, not the applicants. There are hypocritical applicants too, and that is also not necessary.

Think of the lack of courage on this website, even on the simple task of calling an adcom to advocate for ourselves. Too often, we are cowed compliant fish.
You don't have to be. I've emailed and called adcoms to ask them for things. I withdrew from a school after getting an II, then emailed them back and asked for my interview back AND a specific date. I did it respectfully, and they gave it to me. They are just people.

We too Matthew are hypocrites, sometimes it is required, as it is with institutions. We are victims only if we choose to be.
Completely disagree with the first part. You don't have to be a hypocrite, and neither do they. And this process would be a million times better if we weren't.

Totally agree with the second part though, and I choose not to be.

But this conversation doesn't really add any support for the people on the waitlist, so if you want to continue it, feel free to either start a new thread or PM me.
 

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They shouldn’t be so afraid of confrontation that they lie so that they don’t get yelled at by an offended med student. And second, lying about that stuff doesn’t help anyone. Instead of working on what actually needs to improve, they’re focusing on something that may have been fine or that they could screw up by retaking or whatever.

It’s disappointing to see so many people in positions of authority who can help applicants just blow them off to make it easier for themselves.
In CA, most schools do not give any feedback. They are not afraid of being yelled at. We get sued.
There appear to be states where schools do give "feedback." From what I have seen it is usually vague and useless (probably for the reasons cited).
 
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Goro

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Honestly, I’m disappointed by the lack of transparency at so many schools. It hasn’t happened to me, but I’ve heard stories of admissions people saying things to appear inclusive or supportive when it’s not true. Or they tell applicants that it’s their CARS score when in reality they were a super awkward interviewer.

First, these people are deans or staff at a medical school. They shouldn’t be so afraid of confrontation that they lie so that they don’t get yelled at by an offended med student. And second, lying about that stuff doesn’t help anyone. Instead of working on what actually needs to improve, they’re focusing on something that may have been fine or that they could screw up by retaking or whatever.

It’s disappointing to see so many people in positions of authority who can help applicants just blow them off to make it easier for themselves.
It's not the job of the Admissions Dean and his/her staff to help applicants improve. That's the job of the applicant and whoever is advising said applicant. Entitlement is not helpful in this process. Do you actually expect the Admissions staff to advise 5000-13000 applicants, and 300-1000 interviewees????
 

Goro

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I honestly feel like that's unfair to lower SES students....

-not everyone has parents who can pay for them to take 3 months off of work
-not everyone can afford the 3 grand test prep courses
-many people have to work the entire time that they are studying

I get that you can only take step 1 once and that you should nail the mcat the first time, but adcoms need to seriously stop being so callous towards poor students...
I agree with you, but life's not fair. Also, one does not have to go to med school at at 21. One can work for a few years and also work on building a good app. Time mgt, discipline, work history are all positives.
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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In CA, most schools do not give any feedback. They are not afraid of being yelled at. We get sued.
There appear to be states where schools do give "feedback." From what I have seen it is usually vague and useless (probably for the reasons cited).
I can understand a policy of no feedback at all, because while it isn’t helpful, at least it isn’t directly harmful.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive

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It's not the job of the Admissions Dean and his/her staff to help applicants improve. That's the job of the applicant and whoever is advising said applicant. Entitlement is not helpful in this process. Do you actually expect the Admissions staff to advise 5000-13000 applicants, and 300-1000 interviewees????
No, I don’t. I just expect them to not mislead students. The options aren’t “lie” or “advise every applicant.” That’s a false dichotomy. It would be much easier and more honest to simply say we do not provide feedback. It’s not entitled to not want to be lied to.
 
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Also, one does not have to go to med school at at 21. One can work for a few years and also work on building a good app.
I’d argue this is unfavorable position to be in. Realistically, pre-med students can’t do much in the market after graduation. Working for $10-12/hr in a lab or a clinic while holding a bachelors is neither financially or emotionally satisfying. I understand that route is ok for those who need to improve their application, but I would argue the average student shouldn't have to do that. Yes, applying to med school is one of the most, if not the most, rigorous and competitive process one will go through, but it doesn’t have to consume so many years of one’s life to get into it.
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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I’d argue this is unfavorable position to be in. Realistically, pre-med students can’t do much in the market after graduation. Working for $10-12/hr in a lab or a clinic while holding a bachelors is neither financially or emotionally satisfying. I understand that route is ok for those who need to improve their application, but I would argue the average student shouldn't have to do that. Yes, applying to med school is one of the most, if not the most, rigorous and competitive process one will go through, but it doesn’t have to consume so many years of one’s life to get into it.
Given how many entitled people there seem to be who get into clinical years and residency and expect the world to revolve around them, I'd almost argue that some work experience should be required.
 
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Given how many entitled people there seem to be who get into clinical years and residency and expect the world to revolve around them, I'd almost argue that some work experience should be required.
Of course. All that can be done during undergrad years. I’ve worked 6 jobs over the span of 4 years in undergrad and I’m sure many have done that too
 
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Given how many entitled people there seem to be who get into clinical years and residency and expect the world to revolve around them, I'd almost argue that some work experience should be required.
I remember a surgery resident at the local academic hospital get visibly upset when my girlfriends mom elected not to receive a certain -ectomy bc of fear and wanting more time to decide. In front of all of us with attending and the whole group, he displayed his disappointment bc he would not get the experience. There was a total lack of sympathy and professionalism. That's when I knew this process was screwed.

I accompany a patient that is dependent on me to all kinds of specialists and the level of sympathy towards patients and all that they go through for medical access can be disturbing. Especially when providers act proudly or in an uncaring manner. Many are faculty at big institutions. I give the benefit of the doubt a lot but the patient and others don't. Sometimes I wonder if some people are too rich and disconnected from the vulnerable and disadvantaged or that they are too stressed, overburdened, or don't get paid enough to care bc of malprac insuranc or whatever. That's not to say that there isn't great work and patient care being done, even by the same physicians that may have anecdotally given us a bad taste in our mouths. I consider myself extremely lucky when we find that doctor that really listens and cares.
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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Of course. All that can be done during undergrad years. I’ve worked 6 jobs over the span of 4 years in undergrad and I’m sure many have done that too
I'd be willing to bet that your experience is not common.
 
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I remember a surgery resident at the local academic hospital get visibly upset when my girlfriends mom elected not to receive a certain -ectomy bc of fear and wanting more time to decide. In front of all of us with attending and the whole group, he displayed his disappointment bc he would not get the experience. There was a total lack of sympathy and professionalism. That's when I knew this process was screwed.

I accompany a patient that is dependent on me to all kinds of specialists and the level of sympathy towards patients and all that they go through for medical access can be disturbing. Especially when providers act proudly or in an uncaring manner. Many are faculty at big institutions. I give the benefit of the doubt a lot but the patient and others don't. Sometimes I wonder if some people are too rich and disconnected from the vulnerable and disadvantaged or that they are too stressed, overburdened, or don't get paid enough to care bc of malprac insuranc or whatever. That's not to say that there isn't great work and patient care being done, even by the same physicians that may have anecdotally given us a bad taste in our mouths. I consider myself extremely lucky when we find that doctor that really listens and cares.
It’s amazing that you mention that because I’ve heard that poor communication is one of the number one causes of malpractice suit.
 
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I’d argue this is unfavorable position to be in. Realistically, pre-med students can’t do much in the market after graduation. Working for $10-12/hr in a lab or a clinic while holding a bachelors is neither financially or emotionally satisfying. I understand that route is ok for those who need to improve their application, but I would argue the average student shouldn't have to do that. Yes, applying to med school is one of the most, if not the most, rigorous and competitive process one will go through, but it doesn’t have to consume so many years of one’s life to get into it.
That’s just how the wind blows. There are people that are perfectly fine with starting med school in their late 20’s. So others have to be to harder if they want to enter medical school younger.
 

ReturnToMed

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I’d argue this is unfavorable position to be in. Realistically, pre-med students can’t do much in the market after graduation. Working for $10-12/hr in a lab or a clinic while holding a bachelors is neither financially or emotionally satisfying. I understand that route is ok for those who need to improve their application, but I would argue the average student shouldn't have to do that. Yes, applying to med school is one of the most, if not the most, rigorous and competitive process one will go through, but it doesn’t have to consume so many years of one’s life to get into it.
you heard of residency my dude?
 
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Goro

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I’d argue this is unfavorable position to be in. Realistically, pre-med students can’t do much in the market after graduation. Working for $10-12/hr in a lab or a clinic while holding a bachelors is neither financially or emotionally satisfying. I understand that route is ok for those who need to improve their application, but I would argue the average student shouldn't have to do that. Yes, applying to med school is one of the most, if not the most, rigorous and competitive process one will go through, but it doesn’t have to consume so many years of one’s life to get into it.
Becoming a doctor is a privilege, not a right, and one has to earn it. As I said before, life's not fair.
 
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I’d argue this is unfavorable position to be in. Realistically, pre-med students can’t do much in the market after graduation. Working for $10-12/hr in a lab or a clinic while holding a bachelors is neither financially or emotionally satisfying. I understand that route is ok for those who need to improve their application, but I would argue the average student shouldn't have to do that. Yes, applying to med school is one of the most, if not the most, rigorous and competitive process one will go through, but it doesn’t have to consume so many years of one’s life to get into it.
I feel this on so many levels. I’m working a scribe job making minimum wage rn reapplying after 4 II and 4 WL. It’s frustrating because I see others in my UG get in with lower stats and they go around bragging about how they got in by saying they want to do primary care when they ultimately don’t. It’s defin frustrating but life isn’t fair and it’s very far from an ideal situation but you just gotta keep grinding.
 

ReturnToMed

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I feel this on so many levels. I’m working a scribe job making minimum wage rn reapplying after 4 II and 4 WL. It’s frustrating because I see others in my UG get in with lower stats and they go around bragging about how they got in by saying they want to do primary care when they ultimately don’t. It’s defin frustrating but life isn’t fair and it’s very far from an ideal situation but you just gotta keep grinding.
same man. same.
 
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I feel this on so many levels. I’m working a scribe job making minimum wage rn reapplying after 4 II and 4 WL. It’s frustrating because I see others in my UG get in with lower stats and they go around bragging about how they got in by saying they want to do primary care when they ultimately don’t. It’s defin frustrating but life isn’t fair and it’s very far from an ideal situation but you just gotta keep grinding.
everyone is on their own time. i was a scribe living on my own in Boston for a year. i struggled to feed myself and pay rent at the same time but i did it for the experience. sometimes i worked 12 hour shifts and didnt get home until 1 AM to go to my 7 AM shift the next day.

then i did a masters and then i applied and didnt get in. i took the punches and reapplied this year, finally getting accepted to an MD program a few days ago. i never gave up even though i sometimes felt just as bitter as you. i get it but nothing worth it comes easy
 
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everyone is on their own time. i was a scribe living on my own in Boston for a year. i struggled to feed myself and pay rent at the same time but i did it for the experience. sometimes i worked 12 hour shifts and didnt get home until 1 AM to go to my 7 AM shift the next day.

then i did a masters and then i applied and didnt get in. i took the punches and reapplied this year, finally getting accepted to an MD program a few days ago. i never gave up even though i sometimes felt just as bitter as you. i get it but nothing worth it comes easy
Grit and grace!
 
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Becoming a doctor is a privilege, not a right, and one has to earn it. As I said before, life's not fair.
sure, almost everything in life is a privilege. I have to admit with the number of applicants being extremely high, the unfairness is naturally part of the deal. A school can only accept a specific number out of the many that are qualified. I was just saying the road to medicine is already very tough without gap years.
 

Goro

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sure, almost everything in life is a privilege. I have to admit with the number of applicants being extremely high, the unfairness is naturally part of the deal. A school can only accept a specific number out of the many that are qualified. I was just saying the road to medicine is already very tough without gap years.
It is indeed a very tough road. Blame all the Tiger Parents tormenting their kids into a medical career; this drives the arms race.
 
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Honestly, I’m disappointed by the lack of transparency at so many schools. It hasn’t happened to me, but I’ve heard stories of admissions people saying things to appear inclusive or supportive when it’s not true. Or they tell applicants that it’s their CARS score when in reality they were a super awkward interviewer.

First, these people are deans or staff at a medical school. They shouldn’t be so afraid of confrontation that they lie so that they don’t get yelled at by an offended med student. And second, lying about that stuff doesn’t help anyone. Instead of working on what actually needs to improve, they’re focusing on something that may have been fine or that they could screw up by retaking or whatever.

It’s disappointing to see so many people in positions of authority who can help applicants just blow them off to make it easier for themselves.
As future doctors, we should never make things easier for ourselves by telling something not quite true to our patients. I hope medical schools appreciate that one way in which they educate us is through modeling behavior.
 
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lol i just now realized I never filled out future (senior year) coursework on my amcas application. Could this have been a factor for my current outcome? 2 WL, 1 R
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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lol i just now realized I never filled out future (senior year) coursework on my amcas application. Could this have been a factor for my current outcome? 2 WL, 1 R
Doubtful.
 
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I’d argue this is unfavorable position to be in. Realistically, pre-med students can’t do much in the market after graduation. Working for $10-12/hr in a lab or a clinic while holding a bachelors is neither financially or emotionally satisfying. I understand that route is ok for those who need to improve their application, but I would argue the average student shouldn't have to do that. Yes, applying to med school is one of the most, if not the most, rigorous and competitive process one will go through, but it doesn’t have to consume so many years of one’s life to get into it.
look at Norvardis, I used to do contract work for them, they pay around 25 an hour for their internship program.
 
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I actually did a marathon last weekend! Didn't help at all tho lol, nothing distracts me
I know it sucks and it’s not my place to say anything since I got into an MD school I’m satisfied with (not my top choice, but I’ll be happy there). But worrying about it isn’t going to change anything. That being said, you can vent to me if you want, I get it, initially I was so stressed out and it was literally all I could think about.
 
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At the same time it’s a learning experience to try to be productive despite the massive weight-down of not having an acceptance but being on waitlists.
Oh definitely. It’s really tough having this in the back of your mind while also continuing to deal with everyday issues and responsibilities. When you get in though, it’s that much sweeter
 
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I probably won’t get in this cycle, but once I do I think it’ll be that much sweeter. I’ll definitely appreciate my spot more and not take anything for granted. If anything not getting in will just make me work harder in med school and drop a fat 250 on step. This whole process also taught me that these institutions are looking out for themselves so you have to do the same, the whole collaboration blah blah is just a ploy used by schools to look good to the public
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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I probably won’t get in this cycle, but once I do I think it’ll be that much sweeter. I’ll definitely appreciate my spot more and not take anything for granted. If anything not getting in will just make me work harder in med school and drop a fat 250 on step. This whole process also taught me that these institutions are looking out for themselves so you have to do the same, the whole collaboration blah blah is just a ploy used by schools to look good to the public
And that’s sad because it shouldn’t be that way. It’s not at my school, but maybe that’s because of the military aspect.
 
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I could be way off-base in sensing some of the same despair and distress in this thread that I felt while going through my own waitlist nightmare, but just in case, I wanted to throw this out there. Going to a therapist whom I could vent to about how much stress I was under was immensely helpful when I was going through what, for me, wound up being a drawn-out two-year application process. A lot of people don't recognize how isolating of an experience this process can be and can be inadvertently hurtful as a result. Medicine attracts a lot of "suck it up" personality types, making it hard to find someone to reach out to within the pre-med/medicine world, while family and/or friends who have no direct experience with med school admissions have no idea how much pressure you are under and how much worse they can unintentionally make you feel by saying certain things. Not saying everyone in this thread needs therapy lol, but just throwing the idea out there in case anyone feels like the pressure to pretend to have it all together at all times when you don't is too much.
 

ReturnToMed

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I could be way off-base in sensing some of the same despair and distress in this thread that I felt while going through my own waitlist nightmare, but just in case, I wanted to throw this out there. Going to a therapist whom I could vent to about how much stress I was under was immensely helpful when I was going through what, for me, wound up being a drawn-out two-year application process. A lot of people don't recognize how isolating of an experience this process can be and can be inadvertently hurtful as a result. Medicine attracts a lot of "suck it up" personality types, making it hard to find someone to reach out to within the pre-med/medicine world, while family and/or friends who have no direct experience with med school admissions have no idea how much pressure you are under and how much worse they can unintentionally make you feel by saying certain things. Not saying everyone in this thread needs therapy lol, but just throwing the idea out there in case anyone feels like the pressure to pretend to have it all together at all times when you don't is too much.
Every week at work I would be asked if I heard back from schools.... I just say still waiting. When In reality I have been rejected by everywhere except one WL. It gets annoying because it is like asking someone who is unemployed constantly asking them if they have found a job.
 
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Every week at work I would be asked if I heard back from schools.... I just say still waiting. When In reality I have been rejected by everywhere except one WL. It gets annoying because it is like asking someone who is unemployed constantly asking them if they have found a job.
I feel the pain. But instead of people at work it is family members for me. Decided not to tell anyone at work because they would start asking as well. Next time, I think it is safe only to keep it to myself.
 

introp445

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I could be way off-base in sensing some of the same despair and distress in this thread that I felt while going through my own waitlist nightmare, but just in case, I wanted to throw this out there. Going to a therapist whom I could vent to about how much stress I was under was immensely helpful when I was going through what, for me, wound up being a drawn-out two-year application process. A lot of people don't recognize how isolating of an experience this process can be and can be inadvertently hurtful as a result. Medicine attracts a lot of "suck it up" personality types, making it hard to find someone to reach out to within the pre-med/medicine world, while family and/or friends who have no direct experience with med school admissions have no idea how much pressure you are under and how much worse they can unintentionally make you feel by saying certain things. Not saying everyone in this thread needs therapy lol, but just throwing the idea out there in case anyone feels like the pressure to pretend to have it all together at all times when you don't is too much.
I’ve found that there is too much of this “suck it up” attitude in this field. Applying to med school and all tat comes with that is stressful for everyone to some extent. It doesn’t help when there are people out there saying you stress isn’t merited and that you should get over it. ESP those who haven’t been through this whirlwind
 

introp445

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Every week at work I would be asked if I heard back from schools.... I just say still waiting. When In reality I have been rejected by everywhere except one WL. It gets annoying because it is like asking someone who is unemployed constantly asking them if they have found a job.
Pushing for you!
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive

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I’ve found that there is too much of this “suck it up” attitude in this field. Applying to med school and all tat comes with that is stressful for everyone to some extent. It doesn’t help when there are people out there saying you stress isn’t merited and that you should get over it. ESP those who haven’t been through this whirlwind
A lot of those people mean well, they just really have no clue what the process is like.
 
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A lot of those people mean well, they just really have no clue what the process is like.
A lot of docs I've talked to were confused as to why I didn't just apply to 2-3 schools and why I am even volunteering. I had one tell me "I had a bad gpa and low mcat, didnt do any volunteering, but one day I applied to medical school and just marched into my schools med school and demanded an interview and got one". Oh how times have changed
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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A lot of docs I've talked to were confused as to why I didn't just apply to 2-3 schools and why I am even volunteering. I had one tell me "I had a bad gpa and low mcat, didnt do any volunteering, but one day I applied to medical school and just marched into my schools med school and demanded an interview and got one". Oh how times have changed
Yeah it’s crazy how different it was even just 15 years ago.
 

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Yeah it’s crazy how different it was even just 15 years ago.
I was trying to explain to my mom how the process works.... she gave me a long lecture on how instead of wasting my time doing research (since I am not going for PhD), I should just study with books, and I will be ok. hahahahah. I TRIED explaining to her that research is required, but she just continued lecturing me. ahhahhahah
 
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I was trying to explain to my mom how the process works.... she gave me a long lecture on how instead of wasting my time doing research (since I am not going for PhD), I should just study with books, and I will be ok. hahahahah. I TRIED explaining to her that research is required, but she just continued lecturing me. ahhahhahah
I chose a really good research opportunity over focusing on the mcat, I ended up screwing myself over with the mcat and it is the reason I’m waitlisted right now, but the research experience was the best thing that happened to me in all of undergrad. Thankfully I am accepted to a top DO program in my state, but IMHO, MCAT matters much more than any other activity, even research.
 

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I chose a really good research opportunity over focusing on the mcat, I ended up screwing myself over with the mcat and it is the reason I’m waitlisted right now, but the research experience was the best thing that happened to me in all of undergrad. Thankfully I am accepted to a top DO program in my state, but IMHO, MCAT matters much more than any other activity, even research.
oh, you misunderstood me. In my situation that was WAY after MCAT. It is just that my mom didn't really understand the process at all.... THis is to speak to the fact that this process is very complicated and changes a lot.