A question of evaluating debt: Northwestern and Wayne State

[fhexhockey]

Hello!

I've been seriously struggling to make a solid decision on schools right now. I have narrowed down my choices to Northwestern and Wayne State. The following discussion may mirror many dilemmas faced on SDN in the past, but I've come to the point where I would like some fresh input.

I am a Michigan resident who has spent significant time in the city of Detroit. My entire medical school application was centered around my service and commitment to the city, and it has been the one place where I have envisioned the most spending my medical education. I love the city and feel a strong connection, so it has always made sense for me to finally move there. My family is originally from Detroit and many of my relatives live in the Metro area, including a SO. For me, Detroit has been a home to me and would definitely be the more conservative choice since I am so comfortable there (I went to undergrad about 45 min away). The school however is very "old school". Grades, students ranked by a z-score placing students 1-290, and traditional curriculum of lectures and exams (2+2 style). This may make it more stressful thinking about rank all of the time.

I still have not heard about any financial aid or scholarships, so as of present I assume full price COA (about $217K over 4 years). I did go to second look, during which they offered an essay competition for a $10k/year scholarship, and Wayne has been known to give out scholarships up until April 30. So my current thought is that if I receive a half to full tuition scholarship by April 30, I would consider taking this financial incentive.

On the other hand, I have been accepted to my dream medical school at Northwestern. After second look, I really found a place where my personality fit in with the other students, a strong support system from faculty, and opportunities for research that Wayne State simply didn't offer. As I have consulted other physicians who run residency programs and/or went to Wayne, NU, UM, etc, I seem to get the general consensus that Northwestern will open residency opportunities that may be more difficult to achieve coming from Wayne, but not impossible. I have received some aid that would decrease the COA to around $64K/year, and my parents have offered to contribute about $5K/year if I choose this pricier option, taking it down to $59K ($240K total with parents and $260k w/o). I loved the school but still get worried about the larger price tag and the more expensive cost of living.

I am interested in pursuing some type of surgical specialty, if that helps. My main question: is the added debt of Northwestern worth the support and the possible career opportunities beyond med school? Obviously I will need to do well where ever I go, but I want to know if taking on this size of debt is common and if a school like Northwestern is worth that debt? "Worth" is a very subjective term, but I want to know if there are plenty of people like myself taking on this type of financial burden for the sake of pursuing a more prestigious school? The money scares me the most. I've been pretty set on Northwestern the past week, but I often look at the price tag and rethink everything.

All thoughts are appreciated!

***UPDATE
WSU offered me $15k/year ($157K/4 years)
NU counter offered with $5k/year ($240K/4years)

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Affiche]

The difference between 217k and 240k is only 23k, which isn't much in the grand scheme of things. If it's your dream school and that really is the difference in cost, including CoL, go where you'll be happiest.

 

[223sarahsmith]

Interesting situation you have. I think the only reason I would choose Wayne's slightly (but honestly negligible) cheaper price tag is only if I'm 100% committed to practicing in metro Detroit. But then again, you could probably do the same with a Northwestern education. However, you said it yourself:

"I really found a place where my personality fit in with the other students, a strong support system from faculty, and opportunities for research that Wayne State simply didn't offer."

Almost always choose the place where you feel more comfortable fitting in. Being comfortable means being more likely to be successful. Surgery is a tougher specialty to match into. Going to a higher tier school will help somewhat, but is not guaranteed of course. If you don't have the resources to help you rake in the high stats + CV (remember, opportunities are tougher with a class size closer to 300), then it's going to be tougher to do that (but still doable) - just more obstacles to overcome. Why submit yourself to more obstacles when there is an easier path to the same result? Unless you like the high of being unnecessarily stressed, choose the easier path that takes you to the same result. Plus, you might surprise yourself and do more than what you expect to do going in with a place that offers more resources.

Don't feel like you're betraying Detroit. Detroit can take care of itself in its comeback and you can still contribute while still attending Northwestern - do something in Detroit in the summer between M1 and M2. Look at the director of health in the city of detroit - abdul el-sayed. This guy went all over the globe and brought all the fabulous training he learned from various top institutions. Now he's back in Detroit to spread the wealth of information he's gained and is working hard to make an impact.

One doctor once told me that if you had the option to do your education and training at one place as opposed to each academic stage at a different institution to take the path with different institutions because you can gain more perspectives in providing medical care or doing research.

 

[fhexhockey]

Thank you for the replies thus far. I guess one of the biggest deterrents right now is facing the debt. I understand that the difference isn't that large in the greater scheme, but I want to know how common it is for people to take on debt beyond $240k when they have another option to minimize debt at an IS school. I just want to know I'm not crazy for taking on this financial burden at NU. I anticipate some form of financial assistance coming from Wayne this week.

 

[Affiche]

Thank you for the replies thus far. I guess one of the biggest deterrents right now is facing the debt. I understand that the difference isn't that large in the greater scheme, but I want to know how common it is for people to take on debt beyond $240k when they have another option to minimize debt at an IS school. I just want to know I'm not crazy for taking on this financial burden at NU. I anticipate some form of financial assistance coming from Wayne this week.

Wait until you get your financial package from Wayne. If it ends up being significantly cheaper, then personally, I would go there.

 

[Serena_van_der_Woodsen]

.

 

[efle]

you'd probably rank high in the class, which residency directors cite as way more important than prestige of institution

Well, dunno about phrasing it quite like that, since things like class ranking and AOA and Graduate of highly regarded U.S. medical school all tend to get similar importance scores in the NRMP survey at ~4/5, it's just that more people list the former two. So really it's that class rank matters slightly more often, but to someone who cares about both (maybe more common at the more competitive programs?) the name can matter as much.

Here's the link for anyone that hasn't checked it out before

 

[sparklingwater]

I'll echo everyone's sentiments here. Wait until scholarships / financial aid from Wayne. Hopefully, you hear back soon, since the deadline is less than a week away!

From a financial perspective:

Stafford: First $40,500 (5.84% Fixed / 1.068% Origination Fee)
GradPlus: Above $40,500 (6.84% Fixed / 4.272% Origination Fee)

So any amount you take above $40,500 / year hurts a bit more

Perspective: As someone who has undergrad loans and now is in med school, they accumulate fast. 260k-217k = 43k. Assume you do 4 years of medical school and 5 years of residency (i.e. general surgery). At a 6.84% interest rate (GradPlus), you would have have $78k in loans. If you wanted to pay it off in 5 years, that would be an additional $1,539/month, or $899/month for 10 years.

That being said, I wouldn't put a price on your happiness. If you love Northwestern, it is a great school and I'd consider going. However, if Wayne can give you 10k/year and bring the price to 177k, I'd lean that way.

 

[ancientblue]

How do you feel about the curriculum? I have a few very close friends from undergrad who went to Northwestern. Overall, they seem to like the city / facilities, but generally dislike the curriculum / administration (n=3, so take it with a grain of salt). From what I gather:

+Chicago is great
+Nice hospital
+Classmates are generally cool

-Strongly Dislike PBL (I'm sure it varies by person, but they are frustrated that it is very inefficient)
-Lots of debt
-Dislike some writing assignments they need to do
-Dislike their research/thesis requirement
-Lots of BS/MD students

 

[fhexhockey]

How do you feel about the curriculum? I have a few very close friends from undergrad who went to Northwestern. Overall, they seem to like the city / facilities, but generally dislike the curriculum / administration (n=3, so take it with a grain of salt). From what I gather:

+Chicago is great
+Nice hospital
+Classmates are generally cool

-Strongly Dislike PBL (I'm sure it varies by person, but they are frustrated that it is very inefficient)
-Lots of debt
-Dislike some writing assignments they need to do
-Dislike their research/thesis requirement
-Lots of BS/MD students

In relative terms, the curriculum at NU seemed the most balanced between lectures, PBL, and some early clinical exposure every other week with a primary care doc. There is definitely some unnecessary fluff with some of the essays and personal evaluations, but that alone wouldn't deter me from attending. I really think NU would be an excellent opportunity, but as I said earlier, I'm just unsure how I should view this debt.

 

[fhexhockey]

Any other thoughts? Thank you all for the responses.

 

[fhexhockey]

***UPDATE
WSU offered me $15k/year ($157K/4 years)
NU counter offered with $5k/year ($240K/4years)

Currently asking for more from NU.

 

[Serena_van_der_Woodsen]

That is a lame counter from NU, but also they're not on the same tier. On another note, do most people actually hate PBL or are those that hate it just really vocal. If it's so bad why is everyone doing it?

 

[efle]

Maybe it empirically helps performance (especially on the low end?) but to a lot of people feels unnecessarily time consuming?

 

[fhexhockey]

That is a lame counter from NU, but also they're not on the same tier. On another note, do most people actually hate PBL or are those that hate it just really vocal. If it's so bad why is everyone doing it?

From the students at NU, it seems like it's not that big of apart of the curriculum (unlike Case Western, another school I was considering) and the people's perceptions vary.

My parents also said they would contribute $5k/year if I go to NU, so that would bring the cost down to $220k/4 years. This is pretty similar to NU's full sticker price.

 

[Eppur Si Muove]

Coming from someone in med school, I can honestly say that going with my gut and choosing the school I felt matched my personality has payed off immensely. I chose a slightly "lower tier" school based on how I felt I would fit in. Going through med school can be tough but the environment I'm in has made a significant difference on my well being and enjoyment of medical school. Go where you feel like you belong. I do believe these kinds of factors can play into performance in school. If you love Northwestern, go to Northwestern.

Sent from my XT1254 using SDN mobile