Basics 2.0: The Hubris of the Champions - Game Thread

[mizchiefmanaged]

I don't know. I feel like it has to be Miz based on process of elimination right now, and Nav was just like weirdly heavily pocketed. If Dubz and Cubs and I are all village, then killing him last night sets up a series of mislynches that would result in the game being over.

You’re just as bad a tunneler as I am. And you completely ignored my question asking about Nav’s post.

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[WildZoo]

After that I think I would be looking at you or Dubz

Dubz is going to hate this but I do think that bus driver thing could have been done as a bus that she was hoping would carry her through end game. She would have had much more control over that situation because other roles were tied up elsewhere or were not acting (for example, she agreed that it made sense for the blocker not to act...which it did, but it could have also been a good opportunity for a one-shot ability).

I do wish genny would come on to contribute, would be helpful.

It's too insane to warrant hate tbh

 

[PippyPony]

You’re just as bad a tunneler as I am. And you completely ignored my question asking about Nav’s post.

I did ignore it, yes. I don't want to give you any more ammo for a theory I think is probably bunk science.

But, I will say that in his will, he left the cat to me and the puppies to you

 

[PippyPony]

It's too insane to warrant hate tbh

I don't think it is THAT insane lol. Like, pretty out there. But that's also what makes it great.

 

[mizchiefmanaged]

I did ignore it, yes. I don't want to give you any more ammo for a theory I think is probably bunk science.

But, I will say that in his will, he left the cat to me and the puppies to you

There’s zilch reason for you to not post it for the rest of the group.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Okay then, seems like we're looking at an indefinite close for now.

 

[WildZoo]

I don't think it is THAT insane lol. Like, pretty out there. But that's also what makes it great.

No that's what makes it dumb, but again, in the future I will try out all these dumb moves just so I can prove how dumb they are.

 

[genny]

I’m the blocker. Blocked miz N1 and Nav last night because I’m an idiot, apparently.

I don’t even want to talk about how my day is going. Please NK me.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Okay then, seems like we're looking at an indefinite close for now.

Or it can be moved to 3pm?

 

[PippyPony]

I’m the blocker. Blocked miz N1 and Nav last night because I’m an idiot, apparently.

I don’t even want to talk about how my day is going. Please NK me.

Sorry you're having a bad day

 

[Animal Midwife]

Okay do you guys want 2pm or 3pm for close?

 

[genny]

Has anyone voted? Is there a tally?

 

[Animal Midwife]

Okay do you guys want 2pm or 3pm for close?

Vote in pms so I can have more secrets. If you don't, I'm never closing this game.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Has anyone voted? Is there a tally?

There are zero votes at this point.

 

[cubsrule4e]

Has anyone voted? Is there a tally?

No votes yet

 

[PippyPony]

There’s zilch reason for you to not post it for the rest of the group.

Why is there zilch reason? I think he is wrong. Cubs is still not my first choice because I know my role, and that dolphin wasn't lying because she was village, and I think you just want an easy way to swing this onto someone else.

If you are not a wolf, then sure, I will post it on the thread at that point

 

[cubsrule4e]

Why is pippy mostly cleared again? Anything outside of the Night 2 planning?

 

[mizchiefmanaged]

Why is pippy mostly cleared again? Anything outside of the Night 2 planning?

THIS. The reason that’s she’s self cleared herself is because she’s claiming a role that allowed you to not get shot. But that would also be an incredibly smart wolf thing to do, since she’s be able to claim herself village the rest of the game based on this at very little detriment to herself. If she had allowed you to die then she would have had to claim another role, and she didnt know what roles everyone else had/would claim over pm/etc

 

[PippyPony]

Did you guys read what I posted about that yesterday?

 

[mizchiefmanaged]

@cubsrule4e id like to hear your thoughts.

 

[mizchiefmanaged]

Did you guys read what I posted about that yesterday?

Can you quote it?

 

[Animal Midwife]

Alright, 2pm close it is.

 

[PippyPony]

It seemed like everyone has actually ignored how it would be a really incredibly bad thing for a wolf to do. It should be 100% clearing, actually -- much moreso than everything that you all have done, with the exception of Cubs.

 

[PippyPony]

@mizchiefmanaged

We're going to ignore the fact that I proposed an idea to hard clear a **** ton of villagers or shoot a wolf, put the choice for who to act on entirely in other people's hands, tried to get people coordinated so that there was no one who could back out or lie about it, while all the while, there are people claiming seer and redirector bopping around unblocked and alive?

Get out of the pocket, it's not a good look for you

 

[mizchiefmanaged]

It seemed like everyone has actually ignored how it would be a really incredibly bad thing for a wolf to do. It should be 100% clearing, actually -- much moreso than everything that you all have done, with the exception of Cubs.

You’re too good a wolf player for this thought to not enter your head as a wolf.

What was the other role that was necessary for that plan to work? Did anyone ever own up to that role?

 

[mizchiefmanaged]

@PippyPony this is turning into a you vs me pissing contest. If it is really not you, then it has to be cubs.

 

[PippyPony]

Like, if I was a wolf, there is no way I would have had any control over that situation at all, it's so dangerous and risky that it would never actually make sense to do. Wouldn't it have been better for me to try to jail the assassin? Or the bus driver? Or someone else who I could later claim I thought was sketchy?

Instead, I took the sketchiest person -- as voted for by the group -- and tried to get them either killed or hard cleared.

 

[mizchiefmanaged]

Why is there zilch reason? I think he is wrong. Cubs is still not my first choice because I know my role, and that dolphin wasn't lying because she was village, and I think you just want an easy way to swing this onto someone else.

If you are not a wolf, then sure, I will post it on the thread at that point

And that logic doesn’t make any sense either. If you’re just waiting for me to flip village then you’re just giving the information to the actual wolf.

 

[cubsrule4e]

@cubsrule4e id like to hear your thoughts.

Because pip is moving up my list. Nav started suspecting her last night, even may have misled her with who he was going to seer. You seem like the easy lynch, but Nav was adamant that youre village and as I said before, he has no reason to defend you if youre really a wolf unless he just wants to eff the whole game up. Dubz claim mechanistically makes sense, whereas pippys now that I think about it would give her good village points but doesnt objectively clear her, since a wolf could have still jailed me to go along with the village plan and gain the cred after role reveal. The fact that Coop died was totally unexpected, so pippys defense of wolves wouldnt do that is less credible because no one was suspecting either of them at the time and they had more leeway to take risks.

 

[WildZoo]

Coop and pip: Normal levels of antagonism tbh. To me does not feel w/w unless particularly well-crafted.

Spoiler: Coop/Pip Re: Cubs vote

Wait, what? You wanted to comment on something you haven't seen yet?

Also @cubsrule4e you liked a post last night but haven't posted. So I'm going there until I have some participation

Lynch Cubs

Seriously?

Right on time

Unlynch cubs because I'm apparently stuck and I promised not to be

How are you stuck? You placed that vote like 20 minutes ago.

I'm stuck in my thinking I feel that no matter what cubs saying it's sketch, so it could actually be sketch or it could be a confirmational bias and I want to re-evaluate. Is that better phrased for you?

I guess so? I just am not sure how you're jumping to confirmation bias

Sorry is it a different sort of bias? Whatever

That's not what I meant

Can you articulate how it is confirmation bias?

I already did, go back and read

I did read. You lynched him for not saying anything, and then just jumped straight to saying you think everything he was saying was sketchy. I don't see where that leap came from.

K

This Pip/Coop interaction is giving me flashbacks to last game, yet it seems less v/v this time.

Spoiler: Coop/Pip Re: The Plan

So, going back to an earlier comment I made, I think the loyal jailer should probably team up with the vigilante here for N2. Since the jailing's protection won't work on a wolf but will work on a villager, whoever has that role should jail the elected vigilante target.

The shot will go through if it is a wolf, and will fail if it is a villager.

Watcher (either the delayed N2 one or the JOAT) should also watch the target to confirm the shot is taken and the jailing happens.

If someone else gets shot instead, we will assume the vigilante is a wolf.

Watcher will be able to confirm the # of people who acted on the vig target, and should be able to verify who acted when we get to the role claiming stage. If the wrong # of people act on the voted vig target, then we know there is some funny business going on with that.

Thoughts?

I can think of a few ways it might fail, but don't really want to hand wolves ideas by laying all of those out. Regardless, I think it might be the best way to use these roles so that we are pseudo-seering. Vigilante target will get blocked if they are village, but they will be alive. There are only two wolves, so the maximum amount of checks on the system that can fail = two.

People should probably avoid role revealing imo until after tonight though, unless they are going down or there is some kind of paradoxical loop created (i.e. vig would be shooting him/herself, jailer would be jailing him/herself, etc).

That honestly sounds like a good idea, which makes me mildly suspicious but ok. My only problem is if one or more of those roles are dead. I don't want people role revealing but I suppose either the jailer is dead and the chosen person is shot (not the end of the world because they were chosen to be shot anyways) or the vig is dead which nothing happens. Or the watcher is dead and one or more of the other two are dead and no one has any bloody idea wtf happened. I think it's a good plan, but it also sounds rather complicated.

Also when are we doing the role reveals? Tomorrow?

If you think it is a good idea, why does it make you mildly suspicious?

Because I can't trust you, ever. Because every time you get one of these ideas it benefits you specifically in some way. Can't shake the habit

Ok well sometimes I am not sketchy, and am trying to be helpful, but I guess that has not sunk in. Of course it benefits me, I'm not in the habit of suggesting things that I think will lead to a loss lol

You asked, I answered

Spoiler: Coop/Pip Re: Pip's Shot Vote

Because.

If you're village, you should have nothing to worry about, right?

That's completely crap and you know it. You should always have a reason behind potentially killing someone and that came out of the freaking blue.

Spoiler: Coop/Pip Re: Coop's Shot Vote

Oh so you were serious about not wanting to play? I'll put my shoot vote on you then

Shoot ziggy

She's dead, dude

Well thanks for the update I already posted about my own stupidity I don't need you pointing it out

Spoiler: Coop/Pip Re: The Plan Part 2

Hi, just checking in to see if there was an update and saw this.

Yes. It does require coordination to work, which I pointed out this morning. Hopefully, people are not voting assuming it works, but if it actually does, it will hard clear a villager or kill a wolf.

If it DOESN'T work, then it is still not a bad thing, because the village got to vote on a candidate anyways, and beyond that, it will be relatively easy to tell which roles are not playing by the rules of the agreement, as we have multiple watcher/tracker mechanisms in the game and it would be literally impossible for vig, loyal jailer, and both watchers to all be wolves.

On that note -- blocker, regular jailer, babysitter, and bus driver should probably hold off from acting tonight. Bus driver is particularly problematic due to the # of potentially coordinated roles.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand it makes sense and on the other it's giving me squiggly feels. This is too complicated for this late when I had such an early day

Not sure why coop would say this if pip was a fellow wolf and they were looking to keep some roles from acting on n2.

Coop/Miz: Multiple incidences of callout and then back off by coop. To me this just feels weird, and I think miz overemphasized how much coop was actually going after her.

Spoiler: Coop/Miz: Initial Callout

Haven't really heard from @dolphin106258 or @mizchiefmanaged

@mizchiefmanaged I would still like to hear from you! I don't know what your schedule is like so I hope this is just a friendly reminder

Today is my last day in surgery, will have tons and tons of free time tomorrow/the next day! I'll get on later to read, don't have time right now unfortunately.

Thanks for checking in! I look forward to more from you later!

Spoiler: Coop/Miz Callout #2

I'm debating between cubs and ziggy.

Cubs because apparently without pressure they don''t really contribute which I find sketch, and when they do the only I actually get from it is that I'm mean. Ziggy because of yesterday's fiasco. While I find other's mildly perturbing (@mizchiefmanaged you said you'd have more time today I'd love to hear from you) nothing as bad as those two.

For now Lynch Cubs
Shoot Ziggy

That way if Ziggy really is village we can hopefully prove it

There’s been so little today to comment on this far today. I’m around and lurking and reading everything, promise!

@PippyPony i agree with your idea; it’s at least worth a shot that it should work. I also agree with @Coopah s concerns regarding those players possibly being dead, however neither affiliation has any way of knowing that definitely either way so I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t at least attempt, unless I’m misunderstanding what people are saying.

I’m sorry that the MsP lynch wound up like it did yesterday. I found some of her posts off-base and somewhat sketchy so I did what I needed to in self defense.

Quick comment on this because it is something miz emphasizes later - to be clear, that MsP vote was self prez, and she had already said earlier in the day she wasn't a fan of the zig vote. So it would have looked bad for her to continue to sit on zig when she had another option, and I don't buy the move to MsP as "the worst wolf move ever"

Spoiler: Coop/Miz Callout #3

I’m a bit confused and I think I missed something. What is the purpose of ‘shooting?’

We're voting for who the vig should shoot

I would like your thoughts on thread about different players, right now I have basically nothing from you. Reads? Thoughts on sketchy people? A lynch vote? All of the above would be helpful, thank you

I went into this a bit yesterday. The pippy v Ziggy thing ready pretty normal and v/v to me. Also her response to MsP getting lynched yesterday seemed pretty bitter village to me, but I’ve never seen Ziggy wolf before so I’m not sure if that severe self deprecation is her style.

Genny has seemed to be commenting a bit more than I’m used to with her, and the higher comment count only happened after I mentioned she hadn’t commented a lot. I’m not sure how relevant this is.

I feel that WZ has spent a decent amount of time throwing shade at things that I really don’t feel should have shade thrown at. I’ll go back eventually and find the posts, I’m on my phone currently.

Nav seems a bit off to me. Will look back and try to find specific posts. The flip flop yesterday does not read normal for him.

You’re reading pretty normal to me, I have a hard time reading cubs so I’m inclined to reserve judgement in that direction for now.

So your sketch list is very mild for a max of three people? I'm just clarifying because most people seem to think the majority of players are sketch.

Thank you for the reply though, I appreciate the effort

Yup, currently only feel sketchy about those three. Especially in a game with only 2 wolves I don’t mind having a short list at this time.

Coop never really questioned miz's reads here. Maybe I'm crazy at this point but these callouts read more and more insincere the more I look at them. Almost like coop just making sure miz has stuff on thread. The thing that confuses me most is why coop would focus on miz so much but not vote for her, and actually put her third in her shot votes. Atm I think it was so she could bus if she needed to, but not before she needed to, if that makes sense.

Spoiler: Callout #4

@mizchiefmanaged you said you'd be around today and I still haven't heard from you at all

Why am I the only one trying to get people to talk jfc

You’ve heard from me like three separate times? Idk what else you want, I’ve answered all your questions.

Sorry I'm a bit irritated at the fact no one is talking. I would like some active investigation, questioning and wolf hunting. Not just answering questions. I don't mean to be rude. How about a lynch vote, that'd be good too.

Noted. My play style is a lot more of lurking and reading for inconsistencies than active questioning but I’ll give it a go.

*******lynch Nav*******

I understand he’s busy with surgery and I 100% believe that. But play style seems off and not as analytical.

Spoiler: Coop/Miz Re: Shot Vote

Yeah, let’s make it official.

SHOOT WZ

Why?

She’s one of the people I had sketchier feelz on and if she’s a villager it should be irrelevant.

Why do you have sketchy feel there? Apparently you're the only one who answers me so I appreciate it

Will go back and get quotes. I had some reasons yesterday that I of course forgot to save to my quotes.

This post felt a bit of a stretch to me. People often make accusations all the time and they never get responded to unless a wagon is forming or the reasoning seems ridiculous.

Additionally, she also posted like 5ish times in the first 6 pages, including posts made late at night. This does not sit well with the play style I know from her. Most of these 5ish posts have been short answers and one was a straight up vote without any information attached to it at all.

As an aside, I don’t like this Ziggy lynch.

Extra comment here that the "I don't like this ziggy lynch" was right at close and it gives me the skeeves

Spoiler: Coop Posts Re: Shots

My current reads revolve around nav and Miz. Nav did switch to cubs at the last moment so maybe not a pair but I'd like one of them to flip because both be sketch. And mix because all her reads seem half-grown. And she admitted to grasping at straws. I'm honestly not sure because Genny seems ok with her. So that's my immediate focus.

So let's get the votes out there and be official with it

I'd prefer cubs to nav and nav to Miz but I could get on board with any of those three

Ok so
Vigilante shoot cubs
Jailer protect cubs
watcher watch cubs

This is the only place where coop criticizes miz's reads, and again it feels like setting up to allow for a bus since miz was on multiple sketch lists by then.



Some extra bits from Miz

Not the **** today.

*****unlynch ms p, lynch zig***** for self preservation

I don’t have a choice. I have no one else to vote for. I don’t like this vote but I know I’m village. I already explained this in my vote post.

*****unlynch Ziggy lynch msp******

For previous reason

Just emphasizing again that the switch to zig was for self prez, and I don't see the switch back as anything other than putting herself on another self prez vote that would look better based on her earlier comments about ziggy

I’m starting to get super ****ing cranky. I am 100% in a damned if you do and damned if you don’t situation right now and apparently sketchy no matter what the hell I do. Please for the love of god let me know when we’re revealing roles because mine absolutely sucks.

This came largely out of nowhere at the beginning of d3. She never ended up getting any shot votes, no one had even said anything about her on thread that day. I still kind of think she was mad about coop dying and overreacted on thread because of it.

Coopah was on my case for a large majority of yesterday, pretty much calling everything I did half baked or not well thought out and continued to antagonize all of the logic I put out there.

This is way out of proportion to coop's actual comments

Regardless of Coopah, my actions on the first day of game play are not at all consistent with wolf play. I’ve wolfed before and I’m a lot more careful as a wolf and try not to draw attention to myself. I essentially put a spotlight on myself on day one because I have nothing at all to hide.

I have been over this. That lynch drew a HUGE spotlight to myself. As a wolf, I would NOT throw a stink over lynching one village vs another.

See above about that vote switch

And something to look back on when one of them flips wolf. Someone here is the worst wolf ever

Lollllllllll

Ok.

If I did all that as a wolf, then I should win the award for worst wolf who ever lived. And not to brag too much, but I am a damn good wolf.

Apparently I’m the worst damn wolf in the world for shining a giant spotlight on myself when I quibbled needlessly over which of the two villagers I wanted to vote to lynch that day.

We're going to ignore the fact that I proposed an idea to hard clear a **** ton of villagers or shoot a wolf, put the choice for who to act on entirely in other people's hands, tried to get people coordinated so that there was no one who could back out or lie about it, while all the while, there are people claiming seer and redirector bopping around unblocked and alive?

Get out of the pocket, it's not a good look for you

Again, I would be the world’s stupidest wolf to kill off the one person in this game actively defending me.

I don't remember why I quoted this. Probably for the bad omen lol

Sounds about right.
It gets wonky if it just so happens that more than one of those roles is a wolf but I think that just makes us unlucky lol

 

[mizchiefmanaged]

Like, if I was a wolf, there is no way I would have had any control over that situation at all, it's so dangerous and risky that it would never actually make sense to do. Wouldn't it have been better for me to try to jail the assassin? Or the bus driver? Or someone else who I could later claim I thought was sketchy?

Instead, I took the sketchiest person -- as voted for by the group -- and tried to get them either killed or hard cleared.

If you had gone against the wishes of the group there would have been a huge stink about it later when your role came out.

 

[PippyPony]

You’re too good a wolf player for this thought to not enter your head as a wolf.

What was the other role that was necessary for that plan to work? Did anyone ever own up to that role?

I'm also in the business of winning games when I wolf, and am actually a huge control freak. Believe me on that or don't, but that sort of thing would give me a heart attack.

I also had no guarantee it would actually even work beyond knowing my own role

 

[cubsrule4e]

@mizchiefmanaged

But if a wolf, you already knew I was village, so you knew there was no risk for killing a wolf at that point. Had coop been elected to be shot, things may have gone differently

 

[WildZoo]

I will say that pip's plan isn't as clearing for anyone other than the vig target as she has been saying, especially if coop was one of the watchers. When you tell people they have to do something with their role, doing it becomes NAI. Coming up with the plan looks better for her than anything miz has done, that's just how the cookie crumbles, so that and interactions is largely why I am going with miz today. But it's not impossible for pip to be a wolf in this scenario.

 

[PippyPony]

If you had gone against the wishes of the group there would have been a huge stink about it later when your role came out.

Dude, it was my idea lmao

 

[mizchiefmanaged]

Coop and pip: Normal levels of antagonism tbh. To me does not feel w/w unless particularly well-crafted.

Spoiler: Coop/Pip Re: The Plan Part 2

Not sure why coop would say this if pip was a fellow wolf and they were looking to keep some roles from acting on n2.

Coop/Miz: Multiple incidences of callout and then back off by coop. To me this just feels weird, and I think miz overemphasized how much coop was actually going after her.



Quick comment on this because it is something miz emphasizes later - to be clear, that MsP vote was self prez, and she had already said earlier in the day she wasn't a fan of the zig vote. So it would have looked bad for her to continue to sit on zig when she had another option, and I don't buy the move to MsP as "the worst wolf move ever"

Coop never really questioned miz's reads here. Maybe I'm crazy at this point but these callouts read more and more insincere the more I look at them. Almost like coop just making sure miz has stuff on thread. The thing that confuses me most is why coop would focus on miz so much but not vote for her, and actually put her third in her shot votes. Atm I think it was so she could bus if she needed to, but not before she needed to, if that makes sense.

Spoiler: Coop/Miz Re: Shot Vote

Extra comment here that the "I don't like this ziggy lynch" was right at close and it gives me the skeeves

This is the only place where coop criticizes miz's reads, and again it feels like setting up to allow for a bus since miz was on multiple sketch lists by then.



Some extra bits from Miz




Just emphasizing again that the switch to zig was for self prez, and I don't see the switch back as anything other than putting herself on another self prez vote that would look better based on her earlier comments about ziggy


This came largely out of nowhere at the beginning of d3. She never ended up getting any shot votes, no one had even said anything about her on thread that day. I still kind of think she was mad about coop dying and overreacted on thread because of it.


This is way out of proportion to coop's actual comments


See above about that vote switch

And something to look back on when one of them flips wolf. Someone here is the worst wolf ever







I don't remember why I quoted this. Probably for the bad omen lol

Just pointing out the really ****ing pissed off comment cane from pippy antagonizing me over PM earlier that morning. It had little to do with what happened on the thread.

 

[WildZoo]

lynch miz

 

[PippyPony]

But if a wolf, you already knew I was village, so you knew there was no risk for killing a wolf at that point. Had coop been elected to be shot, things may have gone differently

Who is to say she couldn't have been shot?

Would it have gone differently if Coop was chosen, because she couldn't full jail herself?

 

[Animal Midwife]

Official Day 5 Lynch Tally
miz (1) - dubz

1/5
lynch close in ~3 minutes

 

[WildZoo]

Like, if I was a wolf, there is no way I would have had any control over that situation at all, it's so dangerous and risky that it would never actually make sense to do. Wouldn't it have been better for me to try to jail the assassin? Or the bus driver? Or someone else who I could later claim I thought was sketchy?

Instead, I took the sketchiest person -- as voted for by the group -- and tried to get them either killed or hard cleared.

I have a tinfoil about this that I meant to put in my earlier post

 

[cubsrule4e]

So are we going miz? At this point its literally who has the most objective village points, despite that not necessarily be perfectly aligned with subjective views

 

[PippyPony]

Just pointing out the really ****ing pissed off comment cane from pippy antagonizing me over PM earlier that morning. It had little to do with what happened on the thread.

I antagonized you because I thought you were the bus driver and were going to end up swapping things around to save a wolf buddy

 

[PippyPony]

Lynch Miz

 

[mizchiefmanaged]

Have fun losing guys. It’s pip or cubs and pip is playing power wolf imo right now.

******lynch pip******

 

[WildZoo]

So are we going miz? At this point its literally who has the most objective village points, despite that not necessarily be perfectly aligned with subjective views

I mean, I think you're going with whoever you think is the wolf lol

 

[mizchiefmanaged]

I antagonized you because I thought you were the bus driver and were going to end up swapping things around to save a wolf buddy

Ffs. I’d been super clear on the thread that I was babysitter.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Official Day 5 Lynch Tally
miz (2) - dubz, Pippy
Pippy (1) - miz

3/5
lynch close in ~1 minute

 

[cubsrule4e]

Have fun losing guys. It’s pip or cubs and pip is playing power wolf imo right now.

******lynch pip******

or Cubs? wtf?

 

[mizchiefmanaged]

As an aside, I really don’t like how Cubs keeps asking who to vote for.

 

[PippyPony]

Ffs. I’d been super clear on the thread that I was babysitter.

I didn't think so until D3, but ok