gonnif

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I have promised SDN that I would keep re-posting my detailed info on IMG matching issues. This data covers foreign schools. Since the Big 3 Caribbean have technically 80%-85% match rates and dwarf other programs in graduate numbers , the other schools that have candidates in the NRMP likely have way lower match rate than the technical 50% that is overall rate for US Citizens-IMGs. You risk $60,000 in debt, lost wages and benefits have 4 years of your life for less the a 50% chance of ever practicing as any kind of physician in the US.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/caribbean-md-or-crna.1191947/#post-17600322

 
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osckey

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In the spirit of posting videos of shaking some sense into you:

 

WhereMyLiberalsAt

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I'm actually ok with it being 6 years. I have noticed they have a lengthy summer break unlike our US schools. I can see this time being spent travelling like the rest of the Europe. I don't think I would practice in the CR, but I'm not against practicing in any of the Scandinavian countries.
 
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gonnif

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I'm actually ok with it being 6 years. I have noticed they have a lengthy summer break unlike our US schools. I can see this time being spent travelling like the rest of the Europe.
ur rationalizing
 

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I'm actually ok with it being 6 years. I have noticed they have a lengthy summer break unlike our US schools. I can see this time being spent travelling like the rest of the Europe.
Going to an international med school is not some crazy new way you have found to be a doctor and shortcut the process in the US... There's a reason why everyone applies to US MD and DO schools, because going abroad to study medicine is a poor decision if you want to practice in the US. But go ahead and do it, report back so we have yet another cautionary example!
 

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Not crazy at all.

Just outright stupid.

Let me tell you about my current situation so you can have some insight before giving your opinion blindly. I'm currently a pre-med, and have completed my Biology (both A's), Gen Chems (both A's), O-Chem (both A's), and my physics (both.... B's). I'm currently planning on taking the MCAT next summer around August. Where I'm planning to study/prepare for the MCAT for that entire summer break (treat it like a job type deal). To be honest I test well, and I have little doubt that I will obtain less than a 31-ish... I could be totally wrong, but for the moment lets assume I get an average maturation score. I get along with every professor I've had (to safe to say I'm friends with my professors, and the PhD's I'm under doing research). So I have little worries about my interviews. I'm 27 years old, and have been married for a couple of years.

As I've been formulating a list of schools to apply to in my head, I have never once thought about international schools. The breakout of schools is 90% MD, 10% DO. This is a brash statement but MD>DO. Where in some cases DO equals or is greater than a sub-par MD program. But Caribbean in my mind is complete TRASH. But this is where I sound like a hypocrite to the IMG statement. I REALLY want to go to Charles University in Prague. I actually before last week was unaware of Eastern European medical schools. My wife, and I taught English in Lithuania for four months last year, and while on a break visited Prague. We completely fell in love with Prague, and the other places in the CZ. I have little anxiety/doubt about actually getting accepted to a U.S school, but 6 years studying in Prague sounds amazing! Plus their tuition is ~15K a year (and both US, and CZ gov websites say they available for student loans and accredited in the states). Also being in central Europe makes travel insanely easy! I've almost become crazy enough to decline an offer to my dream school (OHSU) even if I got accepted there (extremely unlikely) because OS tuition is $58k per year which would almost pay for the entire 6 years in Prague (I only have one instate school option). Does anyone want to talk some sense into me! I love the thought about studying in Europe, but can't stand the thought of being around peers that sucked at undergrad and couldn't be competitive
 

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Why is it that everyone thinks their reason for going overseas for medical school is the ONE exception and that we will all agree with them and encourage them to go because of it?.....

If you want to practice and live over there then go to medical school over there. If you want to practice in the US then go to medical school in the US. It really is not that hard of a concept
 
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Goro

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The OP just likes the idea of going to med school in CZ-R and doesn't want to consider the consequences. The comment about travelling around Europe during the long summer breaks is telling.

Why is it that everyone thinks their reason for going overseas for medical school is the ONE exception and that we will all agree with them and encourage them to go because of it?.....

If you want to practice and live over there then go to medical school over there. If you want to practice in the US then go to medical school in the US. It really is not that hard of a concept
 
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The OP just likes the idea of going to med school in CZ-R and doesn't want to consider the consequences. The comment about travelling around Europe during the long summer breaks is telling.
US professors are highly sought-after speakers all over Europe.
I have seen the world this way.
This is another path to travels in Europe as a physician...
 
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Goro

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I have two very close friends who were a few years behind me in my graduate program. Both went to a well known (in my field) place in Switzerland to do there postdoctoral fellowships.

Both developed a liking for the European work ethic, meaning, they worked as little as possible and travelled around Europe a lot more. No publications to show for that, nor for second post-docs done at NIH.

They're now sales reps for a skincare company based in Paris.

They got what they wanted after all!


US professors are highly sought-after speakers all over Europe.
I have seen the world this way.
This is another path to travels in Europe as a physician...
 

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That sounds like a great idea lmao don't whine when the door to come back is locked tho
 
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It would be even harder to match into a Scandinavian country if you don't have any cultural ties
 
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ortnakas

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I'm not denying it would be more difficult for me to match, but most of IMGs are people that couldn't make the cut. So if a student is bright in the states and studies in the CR I don't believe we are comparing apples to apples. I feel like many comments are almost copy and paste for any IMG post.
On paper, there would be nothing differentiating you from "people that couldn't make the cut."

Go to the Czech Republic if you actually have a long-term plan to move to the Czech Republic. Or go to med school in the United States, and then move wherever you want. But don't go to med school outside of the US and expect to smoothly come back like you never left.
 

WhereMyLiberalsAt

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On paper, there would be nothing differentiating you from "people that couldn't make the cut."

Go to the Czech Republic if you actually have a long-term plan to move to the Czech Republic. Or go to med school in the United States, and then move wherever you want. But don't go to med school outside of the US and expect to smoothly come back like you never left.
I can respect that.
 

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"telling"? You mean I'm concerned about burnout, and want a "healthy" balance between work, and spending time with my family. Yes that's exactly what I'm telling you. At least gyngyn gave a useful data based link. Sadly it doesn't have the data for the CR. Very few are based on hard data. Which I'm having a hard time finding data on the CR. While the the Caribbean is plentiful. So with that I can only assume most comments are just subjective to biased opinions. I'm not denying it would be more difficult for me to match, but most of IMGs are people that couldn't make the cut. So if a student is bright in the states and studies in the CR I don't believe we are comparing apples to apples. I feel like many comments are almost copy and paste for any IMG post.
If less than 50 IMG/FMG's applied to match for residency through the NRMP, that country was not included. I have never seen an applicant from a school in the CR. As PD's tend to be risk-averse, I can say with some basis in experience, that your odds from an unknown school (to the PD) are dramatically lower than your odds from any school in the US.
 
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gonnif

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"telling"? You mean I'm concerned about burnout, and want a "healthy" balance between work, and spending time with my family. Yes that's exactly what I'm telling you. At least gyngyn gave a useful data based link. Sadly it doesn't have the data for the CR. Very few are based on hard data. Which I'm having a hard time finding data on the CR. While the the Caribbean is plentiful. So with that I can only assume most comments are just subjective to biased opinions. I'm not denying it would be more difficult for me to match, but most of IMGs are people that couldn't make the cut. So if a student is bright in the states and studies in the CR I don't believe we are comparing apples to apples. I feel like many comments are almost copy and paste for any IMG post.
The apples to apples is simply US-MD/DO grads vs IMG-US Citizen grads.
If less than 50 IMG/FMG's applied to match for residency through the NRMP, that country was not included. I have never seen an applicant from a school in the CR. As PD's tend to be risk-averse, I can say with some basis in experience, that your odds from an unknown school (to the PD) are dramatically lower than your odds from any school in the US.
The 2014 match found a single IMG-US Citizen Charles University in Prague-Czech Republic graduate with spot via UCLA IMG Program at the Sutter Health Sacramento Family Medicine Residency Program. I do not know if this was via the Main Match or SOAP. No newer compiled data is available.
https://fm.mednet.ucla.edu/IMG/about/matches2014.asp
 
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"telling"? You mean I'm concerned about burnout, and want a "healthy" balance between work, and spending time with my family. Yes that's exactly what I'm telling you. At least gyngyn gave a useful data based link. Sadly it doesn't have the data for the CR. Very few are based on hard data. Which I'm having a hard time finding data on the CR. While the the Caribbean is plentiful. So with that I can only assume most comments are just subjective to biased opinions. I'm not denying it would be more difficult for me to match, but most of IMGs are people that couldn't make the cut. So if a student is bright in the states and studies in the CR I don't believe we are comparing apples to apples. I feel like many comments are almost copy and paste for any IMG post.
Chances are, you are not a snowflake.
 
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I'm actually ok with it being 6 years. I have noticed they have a lengthy summer break unlike our US schools. I can see this time being spent travelling like the rest of the Europe. I don't think I would practice in the CR, but I'm not against practicing in any of the Scandinavian countries.
The CR isn't a part of the Scandinavian countries? Also, if you wind up practicing in any of those countries, you'll have to speak the native language. It's no easy task picking up a Slavic or Scandinavian language.
 
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WhereMyLiberalsAt

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The CR isn't a part of the Scandinavian countries? Also, if you wind up practicing in any of those countries, you'll have to speak the native language. It's no easy task picking up a Slavic or Scandinavian language.
Scandinavia would be Norway, Denmark, and Sweden. Also while in Stockholm I saw an American doctor that only spoke English. He said he mostly saw expats, business type people, and people like me (tourist).

The apples to apples is simply US-MD/DO grads vs IMG-US Citizen grads.

The 2014 match found a single IMG-US Citizen Charles University in Prague-Czech Republic graduate with spot via UCLA IMG Program at the Sutter Health Sacramento Family Medicine Residency Program. I do not know if this was via the Main Match or SOAP. No newer compiled data is available.
https://fm.mednet.ucla.edu/IMG/about/matches2014.asp
with gyngyn and your link making everything equal, an average USMLE step 1 of ~230 would give me almost 100% of matching in IM. While if we compile most of the charts and look at page 86 on chart IM-9 and we trim the fat (the people that continually don't make the cut) we land at 75%.... So yes you are correct in saying my chances aren't as good EVEN if I perform the same as my fellow Americans.
 
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allantois

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Lol schools in Carribs teach in English and prepare for Step 1. A school in CZ won't have a clue. Don't forget Caribb students do rotations in US, while you will practically have no way of rotating here. If you want to have a lot of mobility, this is not the career. I'm from Eastern Europe, medical education there is like night and day with the US. Not to mention that it's almost going to be impossible to really learn the language for an English speaker; while very few people speak English. I'm just not sure how you are going to learn clinical medicine there. And please stop glorifying the place - it's expensive with abysmal salaries. I really wouldn't take a bet on this one.
 
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WhereMyLiberalsAt

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Lol schools in Carribs teach in English and prepare for Step 1. A school in CZ won't have a clue. Don't forget Caribb students do rotations in US, while you will practically have no way of rotating here. If you want to have a lot of mobility, this is not the career.
Are rotations the same as "electives"? I've heard Caribbean schools teach to the test. Do US schools teach to the test, or are they just better educated and therefor do better on the test?

Also I would Imagine the CR would have slightly better USMLE than Poland but I could be totally wrong.

http://pums.ump.edu.pl/about/pums-students-usmle-performance/
 

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Are rotations the same as "electives"? I've heard Caribbean schools teach to the test. Do US schools teach to the test, or are they just better educated and therefor do better on the test?

Also I would Imagine the CR would have slightly better USMLE than Poland but I could be totally wrong.

http://pums.ump.edu.pl/about/pums-students-usmle-performance/
US schools "teach to the test" in the sense that everything you learn in your courses WILL prepare you for step.
 

AnatomyGrey12

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"telling"? You mean I'm concerned about burnout, and want a "healthy" balance between work, and spending time with my family. Yes that's exactly what I'm telling you. At least gyngyn gave a useful data based link. Sadly it doesn't have the data for the CR. Very few are based on hard data. Which I'm having a hard time finding data on the CR. While the the Caribbean is plentiful. So with that I can only assume most comments are just subjective to biased opinions. I'm not denying it would be more difficult for me to match, but most of IMGs are people that couldn't make the cut. So if a student is bright in the states and studies in the CR I don't believe we are comparing apples to apples. I feel like many comments are almost copy and paste for any IMG post.
Yep you are most definitely crazy. I'm sorry people didn't give you the answer that you wanted to hear. Fine go to the CR, but when you straight up don't match at all or even get interviews then look back on this thread and know that we were right. Getting a good step 1 score is difficult enough at schools that teach to the test (i.e. US Schools, Carib) and would be extremely difficult in a school that couldn't care less about your USMLE score. Heck you would be even better off going to LUCOM, which is arguably the worst medical school in the nation and it isn't even that close, at least you would match a nice community FM or IM program and have a couple of options.
 
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Holmwood

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In the spirit of posting videos of shaking some sense into you:

This is the only entertainment I got from this thread.

Are rotations the same as "electives"? I've heard Caribbean schools teach to the test. Do US schools teach to the test, or are they just better educated and therefor do better on the test?

Also I would Imagine the CR would have slightly better USMLE than Poland but I could be totally wrong.

http://pums.ump.edu.pl/about/pums-students-usmle-performance/
There's quite a bit of testimony from people who studied at Prague here at SDN. I suggest reading up on all of them before making a thread just because I think you'll find more info about the actual program...

Here's one of many:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...medical-school-options.1019185/#post-14615273

I'm reading in other threads that CU has a very high attrition rate... which is the result of their rigorous examinations (they talk a little about it in the thread I posted above). I'd be more worried about actually finishing the program than scoring high on the USMLE.


I personally don't think you need to go this route...Not sure how much of the Czech Republic you'll be able to enjoy when you're holed up in your studies for the majority of your time. You have a ton of time to go back to Czech after medical training here in the US. Might even enjoy Prague more when you're not constantly bummed out by deadlines.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

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I'm reading in other threads that CU has a very high attrition rate... which is the result of their rigorous examinations (they talk a little about it in the thread I posted above). I'd be more worried about actually finishing the program than scoring high on the USMLE.
Oh gee that sounds awfully similar to the other foreign schools we routinely talk about.... For some reason I can't remember what they are....:rolleyes:

OP?
 

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Are rotations the same as "electives"? I've heard Caribbean schools teach to the test.
Rotations are your clinical education, which is years 3-4 at the vast majority of US schools. A few are electives, but many are required. Your biggest problem coming from a totally unknown med school is likely the fact that your clinical skillset is going to be thought of as a wildcard-- even with a fantastic USMLE (which isn't as easy as you seem to think), with a clinical education entirely out of the country, residency directors have no way of knowing how you'll function as a resident in the US.

Didn't you say you have an MD acceptance? Take it, spend your vacations in Prague and don't look back.
 
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There's a plethora of good, solid advice in this thread. OP if you want to go to med school in the CR then by all means go; it's your life. All we're saying is that you need to keep an open mind that if you do go there's a good chance that you will never practice medicine in the US (or, perhaps anywhere).

I think your romanticizing the idea of studying in Europe and this is completely clouding your judgment, but again it's your life. Best of luck.
 
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Mad Jack

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I can't imagine spending 6 years in Prague, personally. The people hate foreigners always ****ting up their city, so you're basically going to be in for 6 years of people loathing you constantly.
 
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ThoracicGuy

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Let me tell you about my current situation so you can have some insight before giving your opinion blindly. I'm currently a pre-med, and have completed my Biology (both A's), Gen Chems (both A's), O-Chem (both A's), and my physics (both.... B's). I'm currently planning on taking the MCAT next summer around August. Where I'm planning to study/prepare for the MCAT for that entire summer break (treat it like a job type deal). To be honest I test well, and I have little doubt that I will obtain less than a 31-ish... I could be totally wrong, but for the moment lets assume I get an average maturation score. I get along with every professor I've had (to safe to say I'm friends with my professors, and the PhD's I'm under doing research). So I have little worries about my interviews. I'm 27 years old, and have been married for a couple of years.

As I've been formulating a list of schools to apply to in my head, I have never once thought about international schools. The breakout of schools is 90% MD, 10% DO. This is a brash statement but MD>DO. Where in some cases DO equals or is greater than a sub-par MD program. But Caribbean in my mind is complete TRASH. But this is where I sound like a hypocrite to the IMG statement. I REALLY want to go to Charles University in Prague. I actually before last week was unaware of Eastern European medical schools. My wife, and I taught English in Lithuania for four months last year, and while on a break visited Prague. We completely fell in love with Prague, and the other places in the CZ. I have little anxiety/doubt about actually getting accepted to a U.S school, but 6 years studying in Prague sounds amazing! Plus their tuition is ~15K a year (and both US, and CZ gov websites say they available for student loans and accredited in the states). Also being in central Europe makes travel insanely easy! I've almost become crazy enough to decline an offer to my dream school (OHSU) even if I got accepted there (extremely unlikely) because OS tuition is $58k per year which would almost pay for the entire 6 years in Prague (I only have one instate school option). Does anyone want to talk some sense into me! I love the thought about studying in Europe, but can't stand the thought of being around peers that sucked at undergrad and couldn't be competitive
As others have said, this is a bad idea.

1. Charles University is pretty unknown to most US program directors. You will have problems with that fact alone just to get a residency interview.
2. The curriculum is not exactly the same and you will have to do significant self learning to be able to take and pass the USMLE steps.
3. Your chances of training in an EU country after graduation is low if you don't have citizenship in an EU country and speak the language proficiently in a non-English speaking country.
4. While the tuition is low compared to many other places, if you fail out you can't use US schools as a backup. This is the same as failing out of the Caribbean schools. You basically get one chance for medical school and if you flunk, you're sunk.
5. It sounds like you are more interested in a European Vacation than becoming a doctor.
6. I'm not sure how many out of state students OHSU takes, but don't count on it either as your only choice...
 
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D

deleted731525

Why is it that everyone thinks their reason for going overseas for medical school is the ONE exception and that we will all agree with them and encourage them to go because of it?.....

If you want to practice and live over there then go to medical school over there. If you want to practice in the US then go to medical school in the US. It really is not that hard of a concept
I would argue there are some exceptions. UQ-Oschner for example has a higher match rate(93% placement I think with a good range of specialties http://www.mededpath.org/residency_match.html ) in the allopathic match than DOs overall(80% match). I think that only data should decide a decision like this. Unfortunately there isnt a ton of data on the schools OP is considering.
 
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Goro

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Just me, but CNU = LUCOM in my book.

Back to the originally scheduled thread!

Heck you would be even better off going to LUCOM, which is arguably the worst medical school in the nation and it isn't even that close, at least you would match a nice community FM or IM program and have a couple of options.
Thoracic Guy picked up on this as well, I see.

5. It sounds like you are more interested in a European Vacation than becoming a doctor.
 
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gonnif

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I would argue there are some exceptions. UQ-Oschner for example has a higher match rate(93% placement I think with a good range of specialties http://www.mededpath.org/residency_match.html ) in the allopathic match than DOs overall(80% match). I think that only data should decide a decision like this. Unfortunately there isnt a ton of data on the schools OP is considering.
The MedEdPath/Queensland program, as well as the Israeli Schools, typically have near US Match rates for a few reasons. UQ-Oschner does all its 3rd/4th year clinical rotations in 9 hospitals in the New Orleans area and elsewhere in Louisiana at Oschner Health System locations. So not only do students get the same level of clinical training that other US students have, they get the option to network for future residency choices. The first two years done at Queensland is part of a long standing, highly regarded university with a medical school adhering to the commonwealth standards of British and western medicine.

The Israeli schools are similar being part of Universities with medical schools and hospitals following standards of western medicine. Many of their students do rotations in the US, particularly New York, where these schools are approved by the New York State Department of Education for medical training.

While graduates of both these schools are considered IMGs, they effectively occupy a spot more like a US school when it comes to residency selection, particularly the Israeli schools. Even so, there has been a marked decline in some of the Israeli schools residency placements just in the past few years which may be do to the overall residency squeeze.
 
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deleted731525

Just me, but CNU = LUCOM in my book.

Back to the originally scheduled thread!



Thoracic Guy picked up on this as well, I see.

5. It sounds like you are more interested in a European Vacation than becoming a doctor.
CNU?
 
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deleted731525

The MedEdPath/Queensland program, as well as the Israeli Schools, typically have near US Match rates for a few reasons. UQ-Oschner does all its 3rd/4th year clinical rotations in 9 hospitals in the New Orleans area and elsewhere in Louisiana at Oschner Health System locations. So not only do students get the same level of clinical training that other US students have, they get the option to network for future residency choices. The first two years done at Queensland is part of a long standing, highly regarded university with a medical school adhering to the commonwealth standards of British and western medicine.

The Israeli schools are similar being part of Universities with medical schools and hospitals following standards of western medicine. Many of their students do rotations in the US, particularly New York, where these schools are approved by the New York State Department of Education for medical training.

While graduates of both these schools are considered IMGs, they effectively occupy a spot more like a US school when it comes to residency selection, particularly the Israeli schools. Even so, there has been a marked decline in some of the Israeli schools residency placements just in the past few years which may be do to the overall residency squeeze.
Really? Not doubting you but just by looking at Sackler and Technion's match list(BGU has always been hard to read since their class typically has a strong primary care interest), the quality of the matches seem consistent from year to year if you consider that they are small classes and matches will vary based on interest. Im curious what you are basing this on as I am considering Sackler.
 

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OP, complete this sentence:

If it sounds too good to be true it __will definitely be good and I should pursue it no matter how much it puts me at risk or how much my peers and mentors advise against it__.
I'm joking. No hard feelings OP, I think Prague is absolutely beautiful and I don't blame you for wanting to live there. Really though, instead of focusing on studying there and practicing here why don't you focus on studying here and visiting there on your comfortable salary. Emergency Medicine offers many opportunities for travel because it's shift work and you can usually move your shifts around to fit in some very nice vacations. Many of the ER docs that I worked with did this and they loved it. One of them even took an 8 day vacation (at least) each month since he and his wife didn't have kids and he had the money to do so.
 

Goro

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First for-profit MD school int he US in generations, and has done a number of shady things. Search for @gyngyn's comments on the subject.


California Northstate University, I believe.

It's a new MD program that's caught a lot of criticism it seems.
 
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gonnif

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Really? Not doubting you but just by looking at Sackler and Technion's match list(BGU has always been hard to read since their class typically has a strong primary care interest), the quality of the matches seem consistent from year to year if you consider that they are small classes and matches will vary based on interest. Im curious what you are basing this on as I am considering Sackler.
I stand corrected (all though I am currently sitting). My data compilation from last year was using early posting from Sackler that showed 45 that may have been reported matches. They in fact had 65 residency appointments for class of 2016, which would include main match and SOAP.
 

osckey

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