i can understand that as well. i felt that before at my school from time to time, but not through classes.. more often the assumptions of other people or little comments people would make..
Marian University (MU-COM) Discussion Thread 2014 - 2015
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i can understand that as well. i felt that before at my school from time to time, but not through classes.. more often the assumptions of other people or little comments people would make..
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Of course you could refer your abortion-seeking patients elsewhere, but that act alone would stand in direct opposition to the Church's message. The issue at hand here is not whether you can direct your patients to the care they're seeking, but rather that your hands will be tied if you practice medicine strictly from the Catholic perspective. You'll be working in an environment where certain procedures or interventions are simply forbidden. Additionally, students are calling attention to the post-matriculation change in the school's dogma from Secular, but Associated with Catholics to We're Catholic and so Are You.
I spent 12 years in Catholic / Jesuit education. It's important to note that during this time I was not responsible for anyone's life and could not impact the decisions they made with their bodies. Medical professionals clearly have greater responsibilities.
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Well this is disappointing. Thanks for the information, though!
some people wouldn't necessarily think that is a bad thing.
i agree with your comment about the dogma. if the school is something, they should wear it loud and proud.
and as far as "Medical professionals clearly have greater responsibilities", some would say that ultimately we are responsible for the well-being of our own soul first off.
i'm just playing the role of the devil's advocate here, to be clear.
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I understand the role you're playing and I take no issue with you on a personal level. I enjoy lively debates.
Physicians are responsible for lives. Priests are responsible for souls.
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We are all just as uneasy as you are about this recent development in our education. I agree with/second everything @porpoisedance said above. On a positive note, it appears we have already successfully had this particular block of instruction removed from our testable material, and going forward it will either be a) an optional block of instruction or b) include multiple religious perspectives and a greater emphasis on how this impacts us as physicians as opposed to just a list of Catholic beliefs. So, luckily the next year's class will get 90 minutes of their lives back that we didn't get this year
I too would have opted to go elsewhere, had I known I would be attending a "Catholic medical school" as I believe it is impossible to get an unbiased and comprehensive education at a religious medical school but that ship has sailed so now I'm doing my best to make sure there is better transparency for the incoming classes. For those of you on the fence about coming here due to the Catholic affiliation, I hope you will still consider it because this university clearly needs more diverse opinions who will continue to advocate to keep our education objective and evidence based.
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We are all just as uneasy as you are about this recent development in our education. I agree with/second everything @porpoisedance said above. On a positive note, it appears we have already successfully had this particular block of instruction removed from our testable material, and going forward it will either be a) an optional block of instruction or b) include multiple religious perspectives and a greater emphasis on how this impacts us as physicians as opposed to just a list of Catholic beliefs. So, luckily the next year's class will get 90 minutes of their lives back that we didn't get this year
I too would have opted to go elsewhere, had I known I would be attending a "Catholic medical school" as I believe it is impossible to get an unbiased and comprehensive education at a religious medical school but that ship has sailed so now I'm doing my best to make sure there is better transparency for the incoming classes. For those of you on the fence about coming here due to the Catholic affiliation, I hope you will still consider it because this university clearly needs more diverse opinions who will continue to advocate to keep our education objective and evidence based.
We have not yet received official notification that these objectives have been removed but yes, it appears that due to the dissent from the class the 90 minutes of Catholic medical ethics material from our recent Clinical Medicine lecture will not be on our exam and will be presented in a different manner next year. Exactly how it will be changed is yet to be decided and may not be for quite some time.
Many of the faculty members were unaware that the mission statement was changed to include "is a Catholic medial institution" and they are currently looking into that change and what it means to us. For those of you going on interviews to Marian or considering applying, I would encourage you to voice your concerns on this (if you have them) to any of the many of our wonderful staff and faculty members. I chose MU-COM largely because of the faculty and they are in no way over-hyped - they are mentors, excellent instructors and student advocates.
Additionally, you will have to wait for a confirmation from our admissions office but I do not believe that anyone is given an "upper hand" in the application process because they attended a Catholic institution or are themselves Catholic. Both of these facts apply to me and I did not draw any attention to them in my application, secondary or interview. MU-COM also has a non-discriminatory policy with regards to admission/employment that includes faith, religion, creed, ethnicity and sexual orientation (among others). Medical school is not about what faith you come from or are familiar with - it is about who you are as an overall person.
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It's nice to see MU-COM's administration is open to student feedback and willing to adapt. Equally impressive, porpoisedance and captlaracms are choosing to engage with their school to effect change instead of employing the more popular tactic of whining on SDN and doing nothing.
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When were you complete?
10/14
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Hookay,
I'm pretty much a lurker here on this thread but I'd like to weigh in on some of the comments recently made here. Before we get started.
1) I am an OMS2
2) I am NOT Catholic.
I understand that a few vocal OMS1s seem to be upset about a lecture they had on religion and medicine. As a student who has now on their second year at this school and program I will say, not all lectures are made equally. But hey, you could say that for EVERY CLASS at ANY SCHOOL. I'd also like to call out in question the maturity of these select individuals. Don't like something? Sure, go slander it on the internet rather than talk to administration and be a force of change. Seems.. totally...reasonable, professional and oh yes, mature!
In terms of religion. As a non- Catholic (and not even a Christian anything for that matter), I have never had a problem with religion at this school. One of the faculties user profile pics is the flying spaghetti monster... so clearly this school is not about indoctrinating new members into a Church. However, this school does have partnerships with Catholic hospitals, which, from my understanding seem to comprise a majority of the hospital system in this area. It is the schools responsibility to prepare you to practice medicine in all settings, even religious hospital systems.
Surprise! In medicine you will be treating people of ALL religions, faiths and backgrounds! Weird huh? Seems like a good thing to know would be to a religion that a lot of the people in the area practice and where you'll be doing your clinicals. That sounds logical, reasonable to me. So, why are you upset that you learned about the churches view on abortion? In order to reject or carefully navigate around something you MUST UNDERSTAND it, otherwise you are bound to look like a fool.
Just a quick word about other religions on campus. There are students who have created religions student groups and ghasp! there are atheists!
In closing, this is a great school. Sorry you uh... don't want to learn about cultural diversity and stuff?
I'm pretty much a lurker here on this thread but I'd like to weigh in on some of the comments recently made here. Before we get started.
1) I am an OMS2
2) I am NOT Catholic.
I understand that a few vocal OMS1s seem to be upset about a lecture they had on religion and medicine. As a student who has now on their second year at this school and program I will say, not all lectures are made equally. But hey, you could say that for EVERY CLASS at ANY SCHOOL. I'd also like to call out in question the maturity of these select individuals. Don't like something? Sure, go slander it on the internet rather than talk to administration and be a force of change. Seems.. totally...reasonable, professional and oh yes, mature!
In terms of religion. As a non- Catholic (and not even a Christian anything for that matter), I have never had a problem with religion at this school. One of the faculties user profile pics is the flying spaghetti monster... so clearly this school is not about indoctrinating new members into a Church. However, this school does have partnerships with Catholic hospitals, which, from my understanding seem to comprise a majority of the hospital system in this area. It is the schools responsibility to prepare you to practice medicine in all settings, even religious hospital systems.
Surprise! In medicine you will be treating people of ALL religions, faiths and backgrounds! Weird huh? Seems like a good thing to know would be to a religion that a lot of the people in the area practice and where you'll be doing your clinicals. That sounds logical, reasonable to me. So, why are you upset that you learned about the churches view on abortion? In order to reject or carefully navigate around something you MUST UNDERSTAND it, otherwise you are bound to look like a fool.
Just a quick word about other religions on campus. There are students who have created religions student groups and ghasp! there are atheists!
In closing, this is a great school. Sorry you uh... don't want to learn about cultural diversity and stuff?
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I am an OMS1 and I just wanted to let everyone know that I am not religious at all and the Catholicism thing has been 100% a non-issue for me. Shame on you guys for going to social media to bad mouth your school ESPECIALLY making a big deal out of something most students didn't even find to be problematic.
For those of you applying to Marian, the religious factor is not an issue. They never press religion on us at all. You will learn a little about Catholicism, but only from an objective point. Because our rotations are going to be with some Catholic hospitals, it is important to have an understanding of the way that will affect us in the medical world. We are never taught ANYTHING that doesn't directly relate to our future careers. I'm not sure what is offensive about teaching us how Catholic hospitals handle things like birth control, IVF, physician assisted suicide, etc. These people are going to potentially be our bosses one day so it's necessary to know how to adjust to their rules to not get fired. Honestly, their rules aren't even asking you to do anything that outrageous. If you disagree that strongly with not being able to perform abortions or having to have another physician declare a patient dead to be able to begin an organ transplant harvest, then take the information they are giving us and don't work in a Catholic hospital.
Sorry that MU-COM is trying to give everyone an objective overview of beliefs you are going to most commonly encounter as a physician.
Marian is an awesome school, and we are getting a really great education. The problems cited by the other first years about religion are ridiculous and just people making problems out of literally nothing.
For those of you applying to Marian, the religious factor is not an issue. They never press religion on us at all. You will learn a little about Catholicism, but only from an objective point. Because our rotations are going to be with some Catholic hospitals, it is important to have an understanding of the way that will affect us in the medical world. We are never taught ANYTHING that doesn't directly relate to our future careers. I'm not sure what is offensive about teaching us how Catholic hospitals handle things like birth control, IVF, physician assisted suicide, etc. These people are going to potentially be our bosses one day so it's necessary to know how to adjust to their rules to not get fired. Honestly, their rules aren't even asking you to do anything that outrageous. If you disagree that strongly with not being able to perform abortions or having to have another physician declare a patient dead to be able to begin an organ transplant harvest, then take the information they are giving us and don't work in a Catholic hospital.
Sorry that MU-COM is trying to give everyone an objective overview of beliefs you are going to most commonly encounter as a physician.
Marian is an awesome school, and we are getting a really great education. The problems cited by the other first years about religion are ridiculous and just people making problems out of literally nothing.
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@organ1sm and @doctorgirl678 - I sent you both messages to respond specifically to your comments!
And I want to reiterate that a considerable number of people in our class took issue not with the fact that we had to learn Catholic medical policy (which is important!) - it was rather how the material was presented, that it was required/testable material and that other religious/non-religious perspectives are not required/testable. Additionally the change in the mission statement has raised concern amongst faculty members as well as students. We have brought our concerns to the appropriate parties and for myself, I am answering questions from prospective students about how Catholicism affects the school.
MU-COM is a fantastic school with some of the most amazing faculty, facilities and resources. One of the strengths in our school is that they allow us to bring issues like this to our course directors, administration and faculty and affect change if at all possible. The class and faculty support for removal of this material from our exam and to change the format for future classes was immediately apparent. If you think this is a non-issue, I encourage you to go and voice that opposing opinion to the appropriate parties as well so that they have an idea of the distribution of dissent within the class. Perhaps we were a minority and the majority opinion just did not speak up!
And I want to reiterate that a considerable number of people in our class took issue not with the fact that we had to learn Catholic medical policy (which is important!) - it was rather how the material was presented, that it was required/testable material and that other religious/non-religious perspectives are not required/testable. Additionally the change in the mission statement has raised concern amongst faculty members as well as students. We have brought our concerns to the appropriate parties and for myself, I am answering questions from prospective students about how Catholicism affects the school.
MU-COM is a fantastic school with some of the most amazing faculty, facilities and resources. One of the strengths in our school is that they allow us to bring issues like this to our course directors, administration and faculty and affect change if at all possible. The class and faculty support for removal of this material from our exam and to change the format for future classes was immediately apparent. If you think this is a non-issue, I encourage you to go and voice that opposing opinion to the appropriate parties as well so that they have an idea of the distribution of dissent within the class. Perhaps we were a minority and the majority opinion just did not speak up!
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Dr Onagy you got an II on a Saturday?
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Equally immature to bash on the internet rather than address students who have differing opinions from you directly...
Regardless, this issue was actually immediately addressed with administration and was only brought up on here to keep full disclosure to incoming students. Also, 2nd years did not receive this same lecture last year so it seems unlikely you are familiar with the specific issues that were being addressed.
We would have loved a course that covered a) multiple religious/nonreligious beliefs, b) actually involved information on how to apply this in practice. The issue with this specific lecture was that it was a Catholic religion class that had no application to clinical practice but instead listed everything we could not do as physicians in a Catholic facility (which really wouldn't be relevant unless we were seeking employment there, in which case I can learn about it then). I think the main issue students had with this course was actually the lack of diversity and cultural awareness.
As many have stated, I still think Marian is a great school, despite the occasional hiccups that are bound to happen as we experience the growing pains of being a new school. If anyone has specific questions they'd prefer to address privately, feel free to PM me. And if any of the incoming students want more info on family life, being a nontrad student, Indy and the surrounding area, etc or just want to say hello while they are visiting for their interviews, PM me for that too.
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You two (organ1sm & doctorgirl678) are aware porpoisedance and captlaracms were responding directly to someone who asked about the influence of Catholicism at the school, right? They also indicated they voiced their concerns with the administration immediately.
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You're right, Catholic doctrine doesn't ask physicians to do anything outrageous. What it demands of patients is an entirely different matter. You know... forcing a rape victim to carry and birth a resultant child, or encouraging suffering because it reminds the afflicted they aren't a god.
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And now back to our regular scheduled programming
For the rest of the eager 10/18 interviewees, I think the rest of us who will be going to committee this Thursday will hear by Friday! Still so thankful for MU-COM's update email's letting us know if our file was reviewed or not, that little action helps so much!
For the rest of the eager 10/18 interviewees, I think the rest of us who will be going to committee this Thursday will hear by Friday! Still so thankful for MU-COM's update email's letting us know if our file was reviewed or not, that little action helps so much!
I really don't understand how this comment has anything to do with Marian but rather seems like an outlet for you to bash a religion. What does this exactly have to do with the Marian curriculum/ how is this MUCOM's fault?
Is Marian to blame for the Catholic church? No. MUCOM is doing the right thing by exposing its students to ideological thought and how to gracefully maneuver around it in a medical setting.
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Since I don't yet attend Marian I clearly didn't attend the lecture. As I understand the issue, the presentation specifically did not address how to gracefully maneuver around religious issues, but instead served as a recitation of Catholic doctrine. The students have opined the underlying problem here is that no connections were drawn between Catholic beliefs and how they will actually impact a physician's practice. Furthermore, if the curriculum is secular (as Admissions reps have stated, "medical school on a Catholic campus"), then the religious perspectives presented should be multidimensional and not restricted to Catholic dogma.
I get the feeling you haven't thoroughly read what the other student have posted. Your responses seem out of tune with the discussion and laced with malicious intent. Please consider taking a moment to re-read the relevant posts on page 16 and 17, and return to the conversation when you feel able to discuss the issues and withhold personal attacks. Lastly, Marian is certainly not to blame for the Catholic church any more than individual Catholics are to blame for the Church's decisions. Individuals, as well as institutions, have the choice to follow rules blindly or use their conscience.
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3.51/3.35/30 (11/9/10) Complete 10/15, on hold today :/ welp.
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...does anyone ever get off of hold or is it a death sentence?
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I spent two weeks on hold before getting an II this cycle.
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Does this mean you can be accepted to MarianU without completing a prerequisite of sociology? As long as you complete the course before attending the school, your offer of admission remains?
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omg-wtf-bbq did their email to you say that you weren't as competitive as others?
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Yes, it's generic:
"During our screening, your clear preparation for medical school, for which I congratulate you, was observed. However, your overall application is slightly less competitive than some other applicants, but the committee is still interested in your candidacy. As such, your application is on hold. The committee will review your application again in approximately one month, if not sooner."
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Ok cool, I was kind of depressed for a second.
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I love Marian. I loved that lecture, although it was a little long and we were all beat down from exams. The point was to prep us for our rotations at Catholic health care institutions - places we knew long ago were sites we would probably rotate at. From the outset that's what I saw it as. I'm Catholic and the product of all Catholic schools (that doesn't mean I am a devout Catholic or a great Catholic or any other derivative, but the education is top notch), and I learned a lot at Dr. Eberl's lecture. I know tons of Catholics that wouldn't know the info that was presented. Most people in my circle were only annoyed with the length and not the content and have since moved on with their lives while acknowledging that that information might not inherently make them a better prescriber of medicine or a better surgeon, but rather a more knowledgeable practitioner (Hell, I could raise my hand during every lecture and ask "How will this make me a better physician?"). If Marian was the 'Catholic Medical School' as some now say it is, I'd gather our professors would have to include tidbits at the end of each lecture about what the Catholic Church says about a particular topic. They don't. I, for one, did my research before I came here and it was pretty clear I was attending a Catholic University and the possibility that we might hear some Catholic thoughts wouldn't surprise me (The internet is a beautiful place: https://www.archindy.org/criterion/local/2013/08-09/marian.html). There are spirituality courses and emails from the nuns, but that comes with the territory. I don't read them or attend gatherings. I also agree that we should learn about different faiths and religions as it relates to health care, and I think Dr. Eberl is doing a lot to make that happen. Maybe it will be mandatory in the future, maybe it won't. But when I rotate at St. Vincent's, I need to know these things. The thing that is great about Marian is that I have met people from all walks of life and all races and ages and faiths and backgrounds. Everyone is smart and friendly and kind and it blows me away each and every day. OPP is the most random thing I have ever encountered and I encourage an open mind and that open mind has allowed me to learn it slowly, but surely. I am not at a state run MD school, so here I learn OPP and the osteopathic principles and maybe a little about Jesus. So be it. I am thankful for the opportunity to be here, as it was the place I chose, and I hope all you folks consider it.
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Thank you for the alternative perspective. I read the article you linked a few days ago and wondered about the quote from Mr. Elsener, the University's President, on the gift Marian employs to create physicians, "What’s the great gift we have? It’s to integrate faith into how we think about the human person, how we think about our gifts and talents, how we’re supposed to share them."
Now that you've been at the school a few months, would you say the school's mission is to produce competent, caring physicians, or competent and caring Catholic physicians? Personal beliefs aside, it's important for every applicant to know the answer to this question.
Also, since you're paying $43k a year to attend, you should indeed ask "How will this make me a better physician?" during every lecture. And the faculty should answer.
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For those of us from 10/18 left, tomorrow is the big day! Lets hope we all hear good news, if i recall correctly they will update the status portal and send an email with regards to the decision.
It's kind of nice being 3 hours behind, means I'm slightly closer to a decision (good or bad).
It's kind of nice being 3 hours behind, means I'm slightly closer to a decision (good or bad).
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Yayyyyy! Should we hear tomorrow after they meet or on Friday?
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From Bryan's description, it seems like they will try to let most people know by Friday, and latest Monday. Depends on how busy they are!
I found out on Thursday at about noon.
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Any news??
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Do they call or email to extend ii??
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Email for extending of interviews.
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ACCEPTED!! I am so thrilled, I can't even contain myself. One of the best days of my life!
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Congratulations!!
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Accepted! Interviewed on Oct 18.
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Alternate list . Interviewed 10-17. Congrats to everyone else though!
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Has anyone been accepted from the alternate list yet?
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I'm unsure of exactly what you are asking. Are you wondering if people have been accepted this year off the alternate list? If so then I believe it's way too early to be asking that. Usually alternate means you are an alternate until they are done or near the end of the cycle. Then they will see who accepts the offer and who doesn't. Then they can decide who to extend offers to from the alternate list. I had a brother in law receive an acceptance from the alternate list but it was two weeks before school started.
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Yes, I was referring to this cycle. The reason I am asking is, MUCOM stated both at my interview and in the email I received that they revisit the alternate list at least once a month. I take that to mean they could offer anyone from the alternate list admission at any time throughout the process, not just near the end.
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