Northwestern vs. USC

[aptwor]

Hi guys! So this year's application cycle is almost over, and I need to make a decision between USC and Northwestern soon. I've visited both schools and like them equally so this decision is extremely hard. I would choose USC simply because I'm from cali, but I've talked to a couple doctors and they've told me to go with Northwestern because it is the better school and this will ultimately help me. I would appreciate any input or personal experiences, thanks SO much!

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[Asyouwereatrio]

Hi guys! So this year's application cycle is almost over, and I need to make a decision between USC and Northwestern soon. I've visited both schools and like them equally so this decision is extremely hard. I would choose USC simply because I'm from cali, but I've talked to a couple doctors and they've told me to go with Northwestern because it is the better school and this will ultimately help me. I would appreciate any input or personal experiences, thanks SO much!

If you can handle Chicago weather, I'd definitely go with Northwestern. It's a better ranked school that will cost you about the same amount of money and provide you with an awesome educational experience in regards to research and clinical experience.

That being said, if you want to stay in California because of weather (and I presume family)--as in those two factors are more important for you, then you should go to USC.

In the long run, I doubt either choice will truly be better than one another--assuming you want to end up doing clinical practice and aren't pursuing a career in academics (where what medical school you went to actually does matter).

 

[ZeusonRoids]

Hi guys! So this year's application cycle is almost over, and I need to make a decision between USC and Northwestern soon. I've visited both schools and like them equally so this decision is extremely hard. I would choose USC simply because I'm from cali, but I've talked to a couple doctors and they've told me to go with Northwestern because it is the better school and this will ultimately help me. I would appreciate any input or personal experiences, thanks SO much!

Board scores help a TON...Does Northwestern have better board scores than USC?

I doubt it...because for the past 4 or 5 years USC has been in the top 5.

At the end of the day the best advice I can give is "Go wherever you think is best for YOU." If you have doubts about a school don't go there. Go wherever you think can succeed.

 

[CoolWhipp]

Usc.

 

[eli20]

Choosing a school for board scores is 😕.

Ultimately you have to decide what is important to you in a school and judge it on your own. Feeling like you "fit" the school is a somewhat esoteric qualification, but for a lot of people is really important.

 

[ZeusonRoids]

Choosing a school for board scores is 😕.

Ultimately you have to decide what is important to you in a school and judge it on your own. Feeling like you "fit" the school is a somewhat esoteric qualification, but for a lot of people is really important.

Says the guy who has spent 0 days in medical school...know where your advice is coming from.

 

[eli20]

Says the guy who has spent 0 days in medical school...know where your advice is coming from.

There has been thread after thread after thread of discussion on board scores and their reliability in reporting and effect of school/curriculum on average. It's not exactly an idea I pulled out of my ass.

 

[ZeusonRoids]

There has been thread after thread after thread of discussion on board scores and their reliability in reporting and effect of school/curriculum on average. It's not exactly an idea I pulled out of my ass.

Did you look at the one that says board scores have THE HIGHEST correlation (especially Step 1) with the residency and field of medicine you get matched in?

I am not trying to pick a fight with you broda...but can you show me data that says otherwise?

I guess if you don't care about the residency you get or about what field of medicine you are matched in Eli20s advice might make more sense. I agree that if you think you would be miserable at one place or another than that is clearly not the school for you, but if you have spent 1 day at each of the schools and thought you would do well at both...well then that is a horse of a different color.

Do whatever you feel like I guess...I don't know you and that is really all the care I can muster about this topic. I hope to see you at our free, high-end catered all you can drink and eat tailgaits next year.

 

[eli20]

Did you look at the one that says board scores have THE HIGHEST correlation (especially Step 1) with the residency and field of medicine you get matched in?

I am not trying to pick a fight with you broda...but can you show me data that says otherwise?

I guess if you don't care about the residency you get or about what field of medicine you are matched in Eli20s advice might make more sense

Reading comprehension can be fun. I never made a claim that board scores weren't important.

I did say that picking a school based on them can be less than ideal.

Here are just a couple of threads that go through the details of why:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=704320&page=2&highlight=board+scores

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=803211&highlight=step+1+score

 

[ZeusonRoids]

Reading comprehension can be fun. I never made a claim that board scores weren't important.

I did say that picking a school based on them can be less than ideal.

Here are just a couple of threads that go through the details of why:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=704320&page=2&highlight=board+scores

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=803211&highlight=step+1+score

Go to google and type in Keck Match List and Northwestern Match List.

Also...Have you heard of sources other than studentdoctor? Have you ever looked at what residency programs are looking for? Have you ever had entire lectures devoted to it? Ohh wait...thats right, you are not yet in medical school.
Talk to me when you are studying for boards, according to you they probably should not be the most important thing you do the first 2 years (if not your entire medical school career).

 

[eli20]

Also...Have you heard of sources other than studentdoctor? Have you ever looked at what residency programs are looking for? Have you ever had entire lectures devoted to it? Ohh wait...thats right, you are not yet in medical school.
Talk to me when you are studying for boards, according to you they probably should not be the most important thing you do the first 2 years (if not your entire medical school career).

Actually I have read the studies that surveyed residency directors and ranked the criteria by which they select candidates. Once again (3rd time's a charm?) - I'm not arguing that the scores aren't important, just that they aren't a good reason to choose a school.

Those two links contain a bunch of med students (OMG! Maybe you can listen to them?) discussing exactly why choosing a school based on average board scores is a less than ideal process.

 

[ZeusonRoids]

Actually I have read the studies that surveyed residency directors and ranked the criteria by which they select candidates. Once again (3rd time's a charm?) - I'm not arguing that the scores aren't important, just that they aren't a good reason to choose a school.

Those two links contain a bunch of med students (OMG! Maybe you can listen to them?) discussing exactly why choosing a school based on average board scores is a less than ideal process.

Okay, I am sure you know best MS-ZERO.
Have fun!!!
Dig this thread up in 2 years...dont be embarrassed to tell me I am right.

 

[eli20]

Okay, I am sure you know best MS-ZERO.
Have fun!!!
Dig this thread up in 2 years...dont be embarrassed to tell me I am right.

I'm not saying I know best. I'm saying other med students in this forum who aren't ****ing idiots know better than you. 🙂

 

[SFO-IST]

I've only been to USC, so the info I provide will be about them, but look at the same things at Northwestern....

I'd go with the overall rank list only if you have no idea what you want to get into. But if you have an idea, I'd dig deeper. For example, if you were into opthalmology, I'd pick USC with it's 4th ranked (it's actually a three way tie for 2nd ranked) Doheney Eye Center. I'd look at the researchers in your area of interest. I'd look at the curriculum. USC is pass fail and tests towards the boards, and their clinical education is quite renowned. Finally, I'd look at campus culture. USC actually has a Dean of Innovation!

Best of luck at whichever school you choose.

 

[r1d1]

is there a webpage that shows usmle scores by school?

 

[ZeusonRoids]

I'm not saying I know best. I'm saying other med students in this forum who aren't ****ing idiots know better than you. 🙂

I know best....but whatever.

Okay, talk to me in 2 years 😉😍.

Actually a little over 2 years because you are not in medical school yet. Have fun on your 1st day in medical school in 3 or 4 months. I am sure whatever you read on SDN is true and that you were not just picking an choosing a couple posts/posters who think it does not matter.

BRO! they have a whole ****ing section on this site devoted to the USMLE.
I am the idiot? Okay whatever

EVERYONE!!!! can I have your attention please. A guy named Eli20 (I guess there were 20 people with the same idea before him) just told me Board scores are not as important as my medical school, and everyone I have met at my medical school and doctors who work at my medical school that I have attended for the last 2 years have told me they were!!!

 

[eli20]

🙄 You're still missing the point of my posts so I give up.

Have fun, I've already played into your delightful troll posts for too long.

 

[CoolWhipp]

I know best....but whatever.

Okay, talk to me in 2 years 😉😍.

Actually a little over 2 years because you are not in medical school yet. Have fun on your 1st day in medical school in 3 or 4 months. I am sure whatever you read on SDN is true and that you were not just picking an choosing a couple posts/posters who think it does not matter.

BRO! they have a whole ****ing section on this site devoted to the USMLE.
I am the idiot? Okay whatever

EVERYONE!!!! can I have your attention please. A guy named Eli20 (I guess there were 20 people with the same idea before him) just told me Board scores are not as important as my medical school, and everyone I have met at my medical school and doctors who work at my medical school that I have attended for the last 2 years have told me they were!!!

Why do you have to act so pretentious? As if 2 years in medical school made you into some kind of medical god. Everyone knows that those first years are just glorified biology courses. Yes, we are all trying to get into medical school, but that doesn't mean everyone has to take your **** (whether or not they are right or wrong). With your tone, you lose all credibility, irregardless of your medical student status.

 

[ZeusonRoids]

Why do you have to act so pretentious? As if 2 years in medical school made you into some kind of medical god. Everyone knows that those first years are just glorified biology courses. Yes, we are all trying to get into medical school, but that doesn't mean everyone has to take your **** (whether or not they are right or wrong). With your tone, you lose all credibility, irregardless of your medical student status.

Okay. You both are probably right. I just hope you remember this night 2 years from now (almost to the day)...no reason. Make a mental note.

Edit: ohhhh no you dIdent'!! Eli20 did you just use the "T" word on me... WTF that is just totally uncalled for. This means WAR son!!

 

[r1oid]

For those two schools pick the one where you think you will be most comfortable/happy/enjoy curriculum. If that is a wash then go by rank/match list quality. If you are happy outside school you will be a better student overall, if you are miserable then it will take a lot more energy to keep it together in class and on the wards.

Picking based on their step1 average is not a very useful indicator, match lists over a few years gives you a much better idea of residency opportunities you will get from the school. Step 1 score is very important but not the end all and in the end you are the one taking the test. I know plenty of people with great scores that did not match to their top picks and people with low scores who matched to Harvard programs over people with much better scores from the same school. Your clinical scores/letters/achievements are equal if not more important. From the program perspective you are going to be an employee managing a heavy work load with a small group of peers, if you are not a team player or just a jerk you will make it much harder for the team to get stuff done. Programs keep a keen eye out for the jerk red flag because those people make it hard for their class across the entire span of their 3+ years of residency.

 

[r1oid]

.

 

[JJMrK]

Board scores are highly dependent on the person. A class average for a particular school is fairly meaningless, and totally variable from year to year.

Match lists are extremely difficult to interpret because you don't know who wanted to go where.

What's most important is being happy so you will succeed and get a good step 1 score regardless of your school's average. If that means going with location, go with location. If it means cost, go with cost.

 

[aptwor]

Thanks everybody for responding. This is all very helpful!

 

[searun]

Northwestern and USC are both excellent schools. If you do well at either school and perform well on Step One, which is primarily a function of individual effort, you will do great in the residency match process, assuming you come across as normal and affable during your interviews.

If cost and the financial aid awards are similar, the choice really comes down to location and lifestyle. The residency match opportunities are basically equivalent.

 

[DancingThruLife]

Board scores help a TON...Does Northwestern have better board scores than USC?

I doubt it...because for the past 4 or 5 years USC has been in the top 5.

At the end of the day the best advice I can give is "Go wherever you think is best for YOU." If you have doubts about a school don't go there. Go wherever you think can succeed.

What was USC's average last year? Out of curiosity.

 

[IlaEm]

I hope to see you at our free, high-end catered all you can drink and eat tailgaits next year.

One of the students told me about this at the second look. That...and there is BEER PONG. I am totally leaning towards USC!!!!

 

[NickNaylor]

Okay. You both are probably right. I just hope you remember this night 2 years from now (almost to the day)...no reason. Make a mental note.

Edit: ohhhh no you dIdent'!! Eli20 did you just use the "T" word on me... WTF that is just totally uncalled for. This means WAR son!!

This guy is awesome, especially if his MDApps is indicative of anything.

And just in case you didn't get it Zeus, that was sarcasm.

 

[ZeusonRoids]

One of the students told me about this at the second look. That...and there is BEER PONG. I am totally leaning towards USC!!!!

Yeah, season tickets to our football games are super cheap...If you join Salerni (like 99% of everyone does) you get free parking after 2pm in any structure, discounts at the bookstore, access to catered events, helps support tutoring sessions, free junk.... It is like $20 per year.

Also, I have talked to my friends at other medical schools, and I think USC has a schedule that allows medical students to have as much of a life as possible.

I understand that board scores are based on the individual to a certain degree, but I also understand that a schedule that allows you ample time to study for them is awesome. Since mid-march, we have only had 3 days of lecture per week called Integrated Clinical Series. Basically reviewing the material from the past 2 years...This is good for a lot of people as somewhat of a review (although you will for sure need to do more studying outside of that because it would be impossible to cover everything).

I think these things are important. When I decided to go to Keck, there was no real reason for making my decision of this school over another and I just picked the place with the nicest weather and the school I had the best time interviewing at. Now (as an MS2) I understand that those 2 things don't really matter that much to me. I am happy I "lucked in" to making the right decision.


Someone here said that Northwestern had more research opportunities than Keck...Although I am not familiar with Northwestern, I can tell you what Keck has in terms of research options.

1. We have a director of medical student research who can basically hook you up with whoever you want to do research with in whatever field. I know people who have done research in everything from Anesthesiology to Plastics to Internal med to Dermatology to Family medicine.
2. We offer students a few thousand dollars in compensation if they want to spend the summer between MS1 and MS2 doing research. (on a related note, we also offer compensation to students wanting to go to Africa, India, South America...etc and do medical stuff in those locations
3. We have a required student research project. I was dreading this because I hate research, but I decided to do clinical research and it actually was not that bad. You need to spend a minimum of like 50hrs on your project over the course of a year which is super easy to do and most people, (including yours truly) spent more time than that because they get interested.

A quick story. I went in to meet with our director of medical student research, and I had no idea what to do my project on. He asked me what my favorite topic I had learned was and I said "Neurology". Right there on the spot he found 5 people doing research in the area of neuro I found most interesting, and told me to contact them and ask for a meeting. They responded and I had started meeting with the researchers and docs 2 days later and was working on the project the next week.

Again I have no information on NW research opportunities, but it is really easy both to get involved in whatever you want at Keck

What was USC's average last year? Out of curiosity.

The last few years it has been mid to high 230's. More than 1 st. deviation above the mean.

 

[ZeusonRoids]

This guy is awesome, especially if his MDApps is indicative of anything.

And just in case you didn't get it Zeus, that was sarcasm.

I apologize NickNaylor, I dont take blogs and forums as seriously as you do...I like to have fun with them. Life is short

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Says the guy who has spent 0 days in medical school...know where your advice is coming from.

So says a person on an anonymous web forum. Just saying. Almost nothing said on here should be taken at face value, if that is only based on ones putative belief in who is posting it (LizzyM and a few others excepted.)

 

[NickNaylor]

I apologize NickNaylor, I dont take blogs and forums as seriously as you do...I like to have fun with them. Life is short

Well clearly you do, as indicated by being an ass in this thread.

umad?

 

[dohlo]

Go to USC. Northwestern is cold and windy and lonely.

And you can already tell at USC you clearly have a better chance of meeting some roided out dude who will have your back when fools start wildin' out in the hospital waiting room:

WTF that is just totally uncalled for. This means WAR son!!

(to ZeusonRoids, that was simply a joke, please don't rage on me too)

 

[HEENT]

It's important to consider list out your priorities after medical school.

If you are particularly interested in a certain field of medicine that is extremely specialized and competitive, you should take a look at where people from the two schools match in general--ie whether it's mostly primary care or a lot of more specialization.

If it is very important to you to be able to see your family, then that should play a pretty big role too.

In general, going to one school vs the other won't play that big of a role in your chances of getting a particular residency after medical school if you are otherwise a good candidate. So choose where you will be happiest in general and where you feel you have the best chance of doing well in medical school.

 

[DancingThruLife]

Yeah, season tickets to our football games are super cheap...If you join Salerni (like 99% of everyone does) you get free parking after 2pm in any structure, discounts at the bookstore, access to catered events, helps support tutoring sessions, free junk.... It is like $20 per year.

Also, I have talked to my friends at other medical schools, and I think USC has a schedule that allows medical students to have as much of a life as possible.

I understand that board scores are based on the individual to a certain degree, but I also understand that a schedule that allows you ample time to study for them is awesome. Since mid-march, we have only had 3 days of lecture per week called Integrated Clinical Series. Basically reviewing the material from the past 2 years...This is good for a lot of people as somewhat of a review (although you will for sure need to do more studying outside of that because it would be impossible to cover everything).

I think these things are important. When I decided to go to Keck, there was no real reason for making my decision of this school over another and I just picked the place with the nicest weather and the school I had the best time interviewing at. Now (as an MS2) I understand that those 2 things don't really matter that much to me. I am happy I "lucked in" to making the right decision.


Someone here said that Northwestern had more research opportunities than Keck...Although I am not familiar with Northwestern, I can tell you what Keck has in terms of research options.

1. We have a director of medical student research who can basically hook you up with whoever you want to do research with in whatever field. I know people who have done research in everything from Anesthesiology to Plastics to Internal med to Dermatology to Family medicine.
2. We offer students a few thousand dollars in compensation if they want to spend the summer between MS1 and MS2 doing research. (on a related note, we also offer compensation to students wanting to go to Africa, India, South America...etc and do medical stuff in those locations
3. We have a required student research project. I was dreading this because I hate research, but I decided to do clinical research and it actually was not that bad. You need to spend a minimum of like 50hrs on your project over the course of a year which is super easy to do and most people, (including yours truly) spent more time than that because they get interested.

A quick story. I went in to meet with our director of medical student research, and I had no idea what to do my project on. He asked me what my favorite topic I had learned was and I said "Neurology". Right there on the spot he found 5 people doing research in the area of neuro I found most interesting, and told me to contact them and ask for a meeting. They responded and I had started meeting with the researchers and docs 2 days later and was working on the project the next week.

Again I have no information on NW research opportunities, but it is really easy both to get involved in whatever you want at Keck



The last few years it has been mid to high 230's. More than 1 st. deviation above the mean.

Ok. For Northwestern, last year's step 1 mean was 239. I'm pretty sure NU consistently scores a similar mean, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Anyway, these "means" are fudgy... but that's another topic.

Let's pretend that you go to X school only because their "mean" is a 240. You get your score back and it's a 210. You will probably hate your life for having gone to that school only for that reason. If the same thing were to happen at a school that you chose because you actually liked it, you would obviously still be disappointed, but the effect would not be as harsh because the past two years have been (relatively) amazing.

Happy people = successful people. Go where you think you will say "no matter what step 1 score I graduate with, I will have had no regrets with my decision." 👍

 

[eli20]

Let's pretend that you go to X school only because their "mean" is a 240. You get your score back and it's a 210. You will probably hate your life for having gone to that school only for that reason.

Impossible... I thought you had a Step 1 score assigned to you based on what school you went to!?! Zeus will be so disappointed... 🙄

 

[DancingThruLife]

It's important to consider list out your priorities after medical school.

If you are particularly interested in a certain field of medicine that is extremely specialized and competitive, you should take a look at where people from the two schools match in general--ie whether it's mostly primary care or a lot of more specialization.

If it is very important to you to be able to see your family, then that should play a pretty big role too.

In general, going to one school vs the other won't play that big of a role in your chances of getting a particular residency after medical school if you are otherwise a good candidate. So choose where you will be happiest in general and where you feel you have the best chance of doing well in medical school.

I agree with all of this, except that I will argue that there's a caveat to the bolded part. A match list can definitely tell you what the opportunities for matching into a given specialty may be (i.e. based on X school's 2011 match list, it is definitely possible to go into Radiology if I graduate from there). It's hard to extrapolate though when it comes to saying how good X school is at producing Radiologists that match into top programs b/c we don't really know where people wanted to go. It might be that all of X school's 2011 Radiology matches wanted to go back to Alaska to be close to their hometowns for residency.

Similarly, for specializations, it might be that all of a sudden a lot of the people in that class fell in love with IM and wanted to match into IM programs.

A better question would be, what percentage of students get their first choice in the match?

 

[The Beav]

.

 

[HEENT]

I agree with all of this, except that I will argue that there's a caveat to the bolded part. A match list can definitely tell you what the opportunities for matching into a given specialty may be (i.e. based on X school's 2011 match list, it is definitely possible to go into Radiology if I graduate from there). It's hard to extrapolate though when it comes to saying how good X school is at producing Radiologists that match into top programs b/c we don't really know where people wanted to go. It might be that all of X school's 2011 Radiology matches wanted to go back to Alaska to be close to their hometowns for residency.

Similarly, for specializations, it might be that all of a sudden a lot of the people in that class fell in love with IM and wanted to match into IM programs.

A better question would be, what percentage of students get their first choice in the match?

That's a good point, but in general, out of any medical school class, more or less a good chunk of the class will want to go into a competitive specialty... sure some years, more will truly want to go into primary care but for the most the proportion of the class shouldn't change wildly.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to what percentage of students get their first choice in the match. Maybe it's sorta useful, but it's not that useful. Many schools try to sell themselves saying that X% of the students get their first 3 choices or whatever but what they don't tell you is that students are many times pressured into applying to less competitive programs or specialties because the school convinces them that their numbers are not good enough. I think this is ultimately a good thing so those students don't go unmatched but it makes the fact that they matched at their first choice much less useful because it in actuality may not their real first choice for a specialty.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Moving to School Specific Discussions

 

[dbeast]

This guy is awesome, especially if his MDApps is indicative of anything.

And just in case you didn't get it Zeus, that was sarcasm.

Ok I couldn't resist and read the MDApps.

SDN terms and conditions say not to call people out so I'll bite my tongue... Or fingers.

 

[gravitywave]

that guy got banned, w/e

truth is, everything Zeus was saying about board scores and prep at USC doesn't make USC a better place to study medicine, for two reasons: 1) the Step averages people throw around on here are both hearsay and non-standardized, making them impossible to compare objectively, and 2) from what he's said, nothing that USC does is anything that a person can't do on their own if they take the trouble to educate themselves about the exam and decide they want to go that route.

my understanding is that it's much easier to get a Cali residency if you went to school there. so if that's your goal, USC it is.

 

[drizzt3117]

USC actually publishes its board scores in a publication called health sciences weekly.

that guy got banned, w/e

truth is, everything Zeus was saying about board scores and prep at USC doesn't make USC a better place to study medicine, for two reasons: 1) the Step averages people throw around on here are both hearsay and non-standardized, making them impossible to compare objectively, and 2) from what he's said, nothing that USC does is anything that a person can't do on their own if they take the trouble to educate themselves about the exam and decide they want to go that route.

my understanding is that it's much easier to get a Cali residency if you went to school there. so if that's your goal, USC it is.

 

[reddoc]

Both are excellent schools. Pick the school that you think you would be happiest at and best fits your personal situation. Rankings and so called prestige are less important.