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lol yea it was to make a point...i was too subtle with the online sarcasm...
Official 2013-2014 Help Me Rank Megathread
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Just post your question, these programs interview hundreds of applicants and most people are interviewing at the same programs. Unless you are asking about east bumble****, maybe they would out you, but then no one is going to have anything useful to say about them anyway.
1. To echo IM2GI, you will be able to go where you want to (fellowship-wise) at any of the above programs. Go where you will fit in personally, because three years of happiness is really not trivial.
2. Don't know
3. I don't think you'll get this far down your list, but university > community. But facts > generalizations. So if you really like Beth Israel NY make sure you look at not only what their residents have matched into, but where. Are those places you want to be? If yes then go with your personal choice.
wow. def didn't expect Kaiser to be the bottom one.
In my opinion it better than Miracle Whip, and on par with VM.
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Consider this a teaching moment then. Asking other people to make your rank list for you is stupid.
agreed, but i'm not going to base my list solely on what i hear on this board. it's just tough to judge the reputation of programs out west because literally NONE of my home institution's faculty have experience with a couple of these. shouldn't reputation be one of several factors in ranking a program?
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yes...
Thanks for the input anime. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
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Taken in a bubble, most people would put Michigan > UPMC. That said, UPMC is a strong program and your future career opportunities will not be limited if you go there, do well, are liked, and have productive research. Would you rather live in a city or in a college town? Do you like outdoors/nature activities? Single/married?
It is important to think about the reality of living in these cities. Rank is all well and good, but none of us have to move to Pittsburgh or Ann Arbor based on the advice. You have to live there and should be able to see yourself being happy.
Thanks IM2GI. I guess my question is: Is the difference in rank between these schools significant, or are they "similar tier" and we're just splitting hairs. My thought process is that I liked UPMC better but given that it was just a general feeling based on a few hours of seeing the program and the fact that I did like Michigan as well, I feel like if there's going to be a difference in my ultimate career opportunities it would be wiser to pick Michigan. In other words, will I have to been twice as impressive at UPMC to get the same spot I'd get being half as impressive from Michigan.
Thanks!
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Neither program is MGH where you can just go there, be a ****up, and get an elite fellowship just because they want to put you on their website as an MGH grad. So no, I wouldnt say you can be half the resident at Michigan and still do well. That said, Michigan, in my eyes/opinion, is in a higher tier than UPMC. JDH/Guton probably have a different opinion.
Go with your gut, realistically think about where you want to live, work hard in residency and life will work out.
Michigan is the better program, but UPMC is very strong--you will be able to do what you want to do and go where you want to go (with a similar CV).
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If I were you, I'd go Michigan. If I recall correctly, Michigan's PD is a GI person.
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Well, I gave you my opinion of them as an academic subspecialty attending on the West Coast who reviews apps, interviews fellowship and residency applicants, and helps to make the fellowship rank list. I can tell you that, if 4 otherwise equal applicants came from those programs, they'd appear on our rank list in the order I put the programs in.
Thanks IM2GI and Keindo!
If anyone else has an opinion I would love to hear it. I'm nervous to pass up a super high reputation program like Columbia and regret it later in life, all because I perceive the Jeff experience to be less of a grind, when in reality they could be pretty similar (both are high work load IM residencies). When I say this, I'm factoring in little things that I think will make my Jeff residency experience smoother - like better location (no commute), much better nursing, better food options during work, and I may be a better fit with the residents (but cmon ya'll, how can anyone really tell from the handful of residents you meet during interview day?). Does this all sound likevalid reasons to pick a place like Jeff over Columbia? I've also heard stories of Columbia residents feeling a little burnt out throughout their residency because of the amount and nature of the work.
I'm currently living in NY and there are times when I feel like I'm kinda getting tired of it and ready to try something new. But when I visit other cities on the interview trail it makes me appreciate the sheer scope of NY. It kind of spoils you, you get used to having so much activity around you all the time. But I think center city philly could be a nice alternative.
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I think small things matter a lot when you are pressed for time. When you are working 12+ hrs. a day, having an additional 0.5 hrs of free time so you can have a phone conversion (or real life conversation based on your situation) with your significant other, I think, makes a big difference. I also go to med. school in NYC and I can tell you from experience we probably have one of the worse nursing staff in the whole country. I think it's not a big deal when you are a med. student but as a resident I don't want to have to draw blood all the time, take my patients to CT scanner, remind the nursing staff million times to do their job, etc. In addition to that, my personal thought is NYC is overrated. It's crowded and expensive with very limited access to the outdoors.
I am a big subscriber to the advice that one should go to a residency program where they will be happy and will therefore thrive. I understand name recognition can open doors but if you don't do well (i.e. don't have legs to walk through those doors), open doors are useless. On the other hand, coming from a mid-tier residency program with solid record of accomplishments can also open doors (based on your accomplishments, not based on program name recognition) and in that case you will be able to take advantage of those open doors. So, if I were you, I would go where I would be happy and NOT where I THINK I would have the best shot at getting a fellowship.
Let me preface this: I am a DO student with an interest in Allergy/Immuno fellowship in the future (crazy I know). I did not get any interviews at programs that have their own A/I fellowship.
I am having a dilemma between choosing a community program like Scripps Mercy (San Diego) which I loved, felt comfortable with, and of course can't go wrong with sunny weather .... versus more academic programs that I interviewed at like Temple, Drexel, Loyola, UIC, etc.
Thoughts? I have read these forums, so I can predict that most people will say residency reputation means everything
Thanks in advance for your help/opinion.
I am having a dilemma between choosing a community program like Scripps Mercy (San Diego) which I loved, felt comfortable with, and of course can't go wrong with sunny weather .... versus more academic programs that I interviewed at like Temple, Drexel, Loyola, UIC, etc.
Thoughts? I have read these forums, so I can predict that most people will say residency reputation means everything
Thanks in advance for your help/opinion.
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Let me preface this: I am a DO student with an interest in Allergy/Immuno fellowship in the future (crazy I know). I did not get any interviews at programs that have their own A/I fellowship.
I am having a dilemma between choosing a community program like Scripps Mercy (San Diego) which I loved, felt comfortable with, and of course can't go wrong with sunny weather .... versus more academic programs that I interviewed at like Temple, Drexel, Loyola, UIC, etc.
Thoughts? I have read these forums, so I can predict that most people will say residency reputation means everything
As you already know, you are playing the game with half a deck already. Allergy is competitive as it is for US MDs, as there just are not that many spots. Many will go to internal candidates at said programs. Your best bet would have been to go to a program with an in-house fellowship, as research opportunities would have been the best and you had a shot at wowing them and getting an internal slot.
That said, you are just left with the same generic advice I tell anyone wanting to do a competitive fellowship: Go to the strongest university program you can, do well, be liked, get great letters. You are going to have to do some research though and see if there are any productive allergy/immuno faculty at the places you got interviews. If you have no-one to mentor you in residency research, you will have almost no chance of getting anything done on a research front.
You are likely going to get screened out by most Allergy program secretaries/Program directors ERAS download screening settings when you apply on the DO front alone, and a lack of publications will be a final killer.
I wish people were more honest on the pre-medical threads, where a lot of posters claim that DO = MD. Personally, after working with someone and judging their competency and character for myself, I couldn't care less, but having a DO heavily affects one's competitiveness.
Any thoughts on Yale vs Virginia vs NYU? Are they pretty equal in terms of fellowship opportunities? I get the sense Virginia and Yale may top NYU in overall life happiness, based on interview days, but as always, hard to tell from 1 day.
Yale ~ Virginia > NYU.
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I have worked with several wonderful DOs, but like it or not, the truth is that the vast majority of people that go to DO school could not get into a US MD program. The best medicine programs and fellowships are filled with US MDs. Will you find a random DO here and there, of course, but they are by far the exception and surely have a very strong research background.
People like to see a track record of success. If you were good enough to get into a US MD program, and a strong residency, you have been somewhat vetted along the way. You are less of a risk, and have proven yourself against similarly strong competition. Anyway, best not to sidetrack this into a DO vs. MD thread.
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I liked Virginia > Yale for what its worth, probably in a similar tier.
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yea i'd think they are essentially the same. yale, nyu, and uva.
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I have to disagree with this. I think NYU offers strong clinical training (the diversity is great with VA+Bellevue+"Don't touch me if you are resident" hospitals). I think the strength of clinical training at NYU is superior to Yale or Virginia but Yale's name recognition (given great medical school) may go a bit further. So, I would put them in Yale>NYU>Virginia.
Thanks for the advice. I know the stigma is there, which is why I added the "crazy" preface for a DO going into A/I. I have several Allergy related publications and am willing to do more research during residency to get into the field and away electives. So since Scripps Mercy is a community program, even though I love it, I should eliminate it, correct? The other dilemma is that Scripps is so much more DO friendly than say, Temple who only takes 2 or so per year.
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A DO coming from a community program with no Allergy fellowship would be facing a very uphill climb to match. Is it impossible? Probably not, but you would need to have an X-factor to get you in the door.
Congrats on the publications. Why can you not just stay where you are and keep working with your same mentor? Are they not allergy faculty?
You should not take things like the bolded into account when ranking. It does not hurt you to rank a "reach" program ahead of one you are more likely to match at in the match algorithm.
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I'll have to agree with you. you have converted me
One post by some random guy got you to completely reverse your rankings? Sounds like you really believed in your rankings.
Shows why these should all be taken with a huge dose of skepticism.
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Asked this before but does anyone have comments on these questions? I'd like to hear them.
2. Has anyone seen Nwern match list lately? Its as good if not better than a lot of top places ie duke, ucsf etc. How come it is not held in as high regard as these places? This was on their website: Cardiology
Joe Campbell – Cleveland Clinic
Jacob Chacko – University of Illinois
Chintan Desai – Johns Hopkins
Andy Kott – Vanderbilt University
Ike Okwuosa – Johns Hopkins
Yana Svetlichnaya – University of California – San Francisco
3. What are your thoughts on Sinai vs BID vs Yale Vs Cornell vs Stanford vs Duke in terms of clinical training and fellowship potential. I liked all on interview day, but had mixed feelings on cornell. Is the Harvard name at BID just water weight or is it something to take into consideration? Thanks!
2. Has anyone seen Nwern match list lately? Its as good if not better than a lot of top places ie duke, ucsf etc. How come it is not held in as high regard as these places? This was on their website: Cardiology
Joe Campbell – Cleveland Clinic
Jacob Chacko – University of Illinois
Chintan Desai – Johns Hopkins
Andy Kott – Vanderbilt University
Ike Okwuosa – Johns Hopkins
Yana Svetlichnaya – University of California – San Francisco
3. What are your thoughts on Sinai vs BID vs Yale Vs Cornell vs Stanford vs Duke in terms of clinical training and fellowship potential. I liked all on interview day, but had mixed feelings on cornell. Is the Harvard name at BID just water weight or is it something to take into consideration? Thanks!
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I'll have to agree with you. you have converted me
I think anyone that puts Virginia before Yale and NYU either has not interviewed at all three places (thus not able to do a fair comparison), or had a bad interview day at one of the first two or is just completely clueless about this whole process. But to each his own. My goal is never to convert anybody to anything. So, if you were converted by my very "thoughtful and opinionated" post, that's your problem. Get a grip.
But in all fairness, these ranking $#*$ is completely worthless. Go where you think you will be your best, do well as a resident and come out as a great doctor on the other side and you will be f-ing golden (see my post few post before this one).
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Shrug, I only mentioned UVA and Yale, and personally would have rather gone to UVA. I did not interview at NYU, which is why I made no comment, nor did I end up going to either of those programs. On straight "rankings," Yale is probably better, but you can move to New Haven in your late 20s.
NW ~ Duke > Stanford > BID ~ Yale > Cornell > Sinai.
I answer because I know what it's like to be neurotic, but to be serious, yours is the second dumbest post ever (the fact that I responded makes mine the first dumbest post ever).
Edit: Wow, NaOut's (now deleted) response, really proving that it is hard to judge someone's character based on their CV.
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I don't think you should pass up Columbia name because no matter what you are thinking of doing, you may change your mind later. Yes Jefferson is not going to close most doors, but Columbia name alone is going to open many more of the doors that you will have to work a lot harder at Jefferson to open. Please think very hard before you pass up Columbia. In big scheme of things, it is only 3 years of your life but it could make a difference in where you end up. Just my $0.02
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Never thought of NW as very clinical program. IMHO, Duke is the best of the listed programs in terms of training and fellowship potential. Having said that a fellow we took few years back from duke was not as bright as we thought that person to be. So yes, just going to Duke is not going to make you smarter. Having said that, I have friends at NW and they are quiet happy; and the match list looks pretty good. Once you are at any of these big names, it certainly is up to you where you end up. FWIW, BID is not as strong as the others but if that is your rank list, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
Good Luck!
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You don't know anything about me buddy. I found your comment very rude and completely unnecessary. You did not have to answer if you thought it was dumb.
I wouldn't fault you for asking about the strengths and weaknesses of any program, but asking whether that any of the programs you listed (Stanford, Duke, Yale, BIDMC, etc.) negatively impacts your fellowship chances seems to be overboard. And as I said, I'm the same way.
Your thoughtful reply telling me to "choke on a stick while [my] mother chokes to death on [your] dick" is not an indicator of good character. I would guess that how someone acts while anonymous is probably a better predictor than how someone acts in front of e.g. the Chair of Medicine.
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My question was on clinical training AND fellowship potential. I never said I was worried about getting a fellowship from any of these places but I'm sure there are differences in where they land their residents, whether trivial or not is a value judgement, and for someone interested in academic medicine and not private practice I am more interested in these differences. You're obviously not respectful so I had no inclination to be respectful towards you either. Has nothing to do with my character buddy. You were rude. I'm done with this conversation.
I'm trying to decide between Emory and UTSW IM. Unsure about fellowship interest, but possibly cards. I like Dallas and ATL pretty equally. Both seem to have pretty strong clinical training, research opps, fellowship match. Any thoughts would be helpful!
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Look. Michigan has large academic nutz and quite possibly doesn't get as much recognition as it truly deserved. They are kind of like the Penn of the Midwest in my opinion - they are good at everything and have a school of medicine that is know to have its **** together without really a "bad" department anywhere in the institution. With that said, the place is a cold and unfeeling MACHINE. You will get good training, work with some of the best, and find a good fellowship match but the place is academically rigid, with means less wiggle room for bring different - what you see is what you get. Pitt on the other hand is kind of one of the new kids on the block at its level, making impressive and continuous strides with quality leadership for most of the last two decades. They have one of the coolest run IM programs. And because they just haven't had the time for their academic environment to get too stuffy yet there some room for interesting things there.
What does all this mean to an applicant? Probably not a huge ton in the shirt term. If I had my druthers I'd go to Pitt because its more along the lines of my personality that Michigan. You really have to go where you like.
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Yeah. But then you'd have to do residency where you didn't like it as much. I think taking a big name over where you think you would thrive is terribly advice. Medical training isn't just a cynical game of pedigree and what would bug me everyday for three years is to find myself in a big name program full of douches who are also really there because of the name brand.
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I can't think of two more identical programs. Flip a coin and then go have a beer.
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Just *a* beer?
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Probably a bad idea, but this seems like the most thorough discussion thread on SDN re: Rankings, including JDH's definitive list Might help answer some of the questions people are asking. As always, huge grain of salt:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/preempting-the-inevitible-rankings-thread.751250/
Might help answer some of the questions people are asking. As always, huge grain of salt:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/preempting-the-inevitible-rankings-thread.751250/
Thanks all! This pretty much confirmed my thought that they are all close enough and I'll decide which I like best!
hi everyone, thanks in advance. not done with season, but close!
could use some input on the list. thinking academics in the future
Yale Research (w/guaranteed Heme/Onc) vs Sinai Fast Track (no guarantee but consistent placement at MSKCC) vs Pitt Research (w/guaranteed Pulm)
also, BU Research (w/guaranteed Heme/Onc) vs Case (w/guaranteed Heme/Onc)
could use some input on the list. thinking academics in the future
Yale Research (w/guaranteed Heme/Onc) vs Sinai Fast Track (no guarantee but consistent placement at MSKCC) vs Pitt Research (w/guaranteed Pulm)
also, BU Research (w/guaranteed Heme/Onc) vs Case (w/guaranteed Heme/Onc)
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