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Official 2013-2014 Help Me Rank Megathread
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They're just mad because they were getting picked on, on the SDN forums.
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Hi guys,
Please help me to rank 🙂 I want to do GI or Cards and want to practice in California. I'm interested in working in academia in the future. I have been debating if I should go to lower tier programs in California or some other programs with better name outside of California. I really love California but I'm afraid if I don't go to the best program, then it may be hard for me to apply for fellowship.
California-Cedar Sinai, UC Irvine, USC, Harbor-UCLA, Scripps Mercy
Outside of California-Baylor, Emory, UAB, Tulane, Albert Einstein-Montefiore
Please give me your opinions. I really appreciate your help!!!
Please help me to rank 🙂 I want to do GI or Cards and want to practice in California. I'm interested in working in academia in the future. I have been debating if I should go to lower tier programs in California or some other programs with better name outside of California. I really love California but I'm afraid if I don't go to the best program, then it may be hard for me to apply for fellowship.
California-Cedar Sinai, UC Irvine, USC, Harbor-UCLA, Scripps Mercy
Outside of California-Baylor, Emory, UAB, Tulane, Albert Einstein-Montefiore
Please give me your opinions. I really appreciate your help!!!
That's what I thought
Assuming that's Real Baylor, every program outside of CA (Tulane potentially excepted) is "better" than the CA programs you have. But you interviewed at them all so you need to make the decision yourself.
One thing that a lot of med students planning on fellowship in the future is that the pattern of fellowship interviews is often very different from that of residency interviews. Stanford, UCSF, Columbia and NW all rejected me for IM but I got IV offers from all of them for fellowship. Your overall fellowship prospects (outside of your home program if you stay at one of those places in CA) will be better coming from someplace like UAB or Emory than from UCI or Harbor.
Hi everyone,
I'm from the south and leaning towards a GI fellowship after residency. My top 3 programs are set, but I'm debating between Thomas Jefferson and UAB for #4 and #5. I got a good feeling at both programs. I'm willing to go wherever I'd get the best training and have the best chance at matching into GI, but I sort of want to get out of the south for residency. Is either program significantly better than the other in terms of training and fellowship options?
I'm from the south and leaning towards a GI fellowship after residency. My top 3 programs are set, but I'm debating between Thomas Jefferson and UAB for #4 and #5. I got a good feeling at both programs. I'm willing to go wherever I'd get the best training and have the best chance at matching into GI, but I sort of want to get out of the south for residency. Is either program significantly better than the other in terms of training and fellowship options?
I think UAB is a "higher tier" program than Jeff. But it's not like you're going to wind up unemployed coming out of TJ. I can't find TJ's fellowship match list but the UAB one (which is batched for 4 or 5 years) looks pretty good. Better research at UAB if you care about that but you can find a clinical research project at TJ without too much trouble.
If these were your 1 and 2, I'd say UAB without a doubt. For the middle 1/3 of your list, do whatever makes you feel better.
Thanks for taking the time to offer your advice!
I didn't interview at TJU, but I would still say UAB without a doubt if location isn't a huge. Personally, I would rather live in Birmingham over Philly as a resident. Overall program leadership at UAB seemed very solid and their fellowship match is definitely solid. People from UAB end up everywhere.
Thank you so much for your reply!!!
I could use some input on my list, would like to pursue a cardiology fellowship. I'm an IMG:
Rutgers (Newark)
Saint Lukes-Roosevelt NY
UTSW Austin
Flushing Hospital NY
Chicago Med School at Rosalind Franklin
Univ of Illinois at Urbana
Maricopa Med Center Phoenix
Icahn SOM Queens Hospital
Univ of Buffalo (Catholic Health)
Rutgers (Newark)
Saint Lukes-Roosevelt NY
UTSW Austin
Flushing Hospital NY
Chicago Med School at Rosalind Franklin
Univ of Illinois at Urbana
Maricopa Med Center Phoenix
Icahn SOM Queens Hospital
Univ of Buffalo (Catholic Health)
while i cant say that i'm familiar with any of those programs except that the austin one is closer to my neck of the woods, your best bet is a true university program vs a community hospital that "affiliates" itself with a school
Rutgers and SLR is probably the strongest programs on your list. Take a look at the school's matchlist to see if they match people into cards. GL
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yes, but I would think your odds of matching the second time around during the NRMP match are slimmer if you've already been passed over in the AOA match.
Really? I thought that since they may only have 1-4 spots for the DO part of the dual track if you weren't their 1-4 candidate then they wouldn't rank you at all in the DO match but might in the MD match if you were 10 on their ROL. (Theoretical numbers)
If you could not beat out the other DOs, what makes you think you can compete against the MDs?
Perhaps the MDs don't really want to go there, considering I don't know of any decent AOA-ACGME programs...
Thank you in advance guys. This is my list in order of preference & i'm aiming for Cards:
1- MGH
2- Mayo
3- Cornell
4- U of Chicago
5- UTSW
6- Tufts
7- Cleveland Clinic
8- Montefiore
9- St. Luke's & Roosevelt
10- Bay-state
1- MGH
2- Mayo
3- Cornell
4- U of Chicago
5- UTSW
6- Tufts
7- Cleveland Clinic
8- Montefiore
9- St. Luke's & Roosevelt
10- Bay-state
Nice list, interesting mix of programs seeing MGH at the top and not some of the other usual "top 10" players. Im sure you will do well and have a great experience. Goodluck.
true
I would consider putting UTSW and UChicago above Cornell, but your top five are all great programs, so if that's your order it's very reasonable!
Yeah you usually wouldn't see MGH and St Luke's on the same list... but hey props to him/her.
Thanks Guys! I mainly put Cornell above the other 2 (UTSW & chicago) for the many positive changes i saw happening at the place with a new chair from the Brigham and a new energetic PD.
I am not sure however I'm not sure about UTSW & UofC. Both seem great programs, would be interested to hear what you guys have to say about those 2.
UTSW, like Michigan, is a top program yet still underrated by students who usually have more regional exposure. All the best clinicians who want to be in the South will be there and there's very little competition (maybe Baylor, but that's still a different tier of program). As a result, I think its national reputation (that PDs and fellowship people are more in tune with) is a better than Cornell (but don't get me wrong, Cornell is still great).
University of Chicago has a great catchment area, which is a large portion of the Midwest PLUS it only really has to compete with Northwestern. A lot of the NE programs are historically awesome, but there is a lot of competition (MGH, Brigham, BIDMC, Yale, Columbia--all arguably "better" programs than Cornell). So again when you look at national reputation it might be a little bit better again. Plus Chicago has a lot of benefits of New York (great city, great food, etc.) without costing $1800/mo. for a ****ing studio.
Also, I hear you work really hard at NYC programs and while that's to be expected, some of that is spent doing bull**** like blood draws and wheeling people to CTs and stuff. Mount Sinai might be a little better in this regard but I think that's still just compared to the NYC standard. I don't think that adds to your education.
Full disclosure, I am interviewing this year. We don't have any program overlap except for Tufts and Montefiore and neither are in my top 6. I don't think there's conflict of interest, but thought it would be good to let you know.
I was not a huge fan of Cornell when I interviewed, but it sounds like the leadership has all changed. The people I have met who trained at UTSW were excellent doctors. You will get tons of critical care experience with lots of ICU time, so if that is not your thing, I would take that into consideration. Also has a reputation of being somewhat malignant. I think UTSW > UofC reputation wise, although UofC has an elite GI fellowship.
Given that you got an MGH interview, if you dont match there, I would suspect you will match at Mayo and the rest of your list wont matter. Make sure your #2 is really what you want as you have a good chance of matching if you fall past MGH.
Thanks guys. To be honest I'm mainly going to decide based on fellowship matches in Cards, as that is the ultimate goal for me. But i really appreciate all the input.
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I would think about where you want to live. You can get a good cards match at any of those top 5, but there are some drastically different social/living situations.
This is true. The dually-accredited programs I interviewed at put all of the DO candidates in the AOA match for their reserved DO spots. If you didn't match in the AOA draw, then your chances of matching in the ACGME match are basically nil.
My list feels totally muddled. And I know it's crazy long (I'm couples matching). Would appreciate any help. I'm from CA & would like to stay on the west coast. I value quality of life & work/life balance but also want to get great training (if that's possible). Not sure if I'm pursuing fellowship, but definitely want to keep ALL doors open.
1. OHSU - any of my top 4 could be easily exchangeable
2. Stanford - I got a very weird vibe from residents on my interview day... wondering if that's just me
3. UCLA
4. U of Washington
5. UCSD
6. UC Davis - is it crazy for me to put this so high? Loved the people here, they seem to get good training. I have relatives in Sac. Would matching here mess up my fellowship chances?
7. UNC
8. UW - Madison - would be ranked a lot higher but I'm very uncertain about living in Madison
9. Case Western
10. Utah
11. Cincinnati
12. UCI
13. U of So California - people typically rank this higher but I had a pretty bad interview day there that left a bad taste in my mouth
14. UIC
15. Loyola
16. Loma Linda
17. Kaiser Oakland - I really have no idea where to put these Kaiser programs. I'm couples matching and applied because my S/O did to programs in the area... should I even be ranking them if I want to pursue fellowship?
18. Kaiser LA
1. OHSU - any of my top 4 could be easily exchangeable
2. Stanford - I got a very weird vibe from residents on my interview day... wondering if that's just me
3. UCLA
4. U of Washington
5. UCSD
6. UC Davis - is it crazy for me to put this so high? Loved the people here, they seem to get good training. I have relatives in Sac. Would matching here mess up my fellowship chances?
7. UNC
8. UW - Madison - would be ranked a lot higher but I'm very uncertain about living in Madison
9. Case Western
10. Utah
11. Cincinnati
12. UCI
13. U of So California - people typically rank this higher but I had a pretty bad interview day there that left a bad taste in my mouth
14. UIC
15. Loyola
16. Loma Linda
17. Kaiser Oakland - I really have no idea where to put these Kaiser programs. I'm couples matching and applied because my S/O did to programs in the area... should I even be ranking them if I want to pursue fellowship?
18. Kaiser LA
Rank the top 4/5 how you like them. I highly doubt you'll drop below that. I think you have it "right" if you value quality of life... OHSU and Stanford are good choices. UCLA, UW, and UCSD traditionally being more "hardcore/malignant" and have a traditional schedule.
UCD is a solid program, but obviously not competitive with UWisc, UUtah, UNC.
Plus, you're couples matching so that kind just make everything weird.
Can you PM me what your bad interview day experience was? I am also debating where to put it on my list (currently at #6 ...). FWIW, I liked OHSU a lot too.
Perspective of a Tufts R2 below....
I have been very please by the quality of my training at Tufts over the past 18 mos. The thing you don't get at first blush looking at the program material is just how quality the attendings are for a small academic institution. I'm sure you find many similar throughout the city of Boston but our subspecialty staff (particularly in all of Cards, Renal, ID, BMT and Pulm Htn) are pretty impressive in terms of contributions to their field and involvement nationally. This was a step up for me from Med School, I know ppl on this board are generally from very competitive top programs so it may not be as impressive (or maybe thats the vocal minority). You have a good degree of autonomy with plenty of backup, and because the program is relatively small you usually have a relationship with fellows and attendings and a comfort level running things by them.
The referral base is interesting because of the above comment from OP. The bulk of patients are community hospital transfers making the hospital function more like a tertiary referral center with standard ROMI, CHF, PNA coming through the ED, the strange cases usually come in referral. I've seen Babesia, Malaria, new Dx Leukemia with Leukostasis, Invasive Aspergillosis, Myasthenia Crisis complications of AIDS, Heart Transplant and LVAD. Probably not a big deal for most academic centers, I'm just trying to illustrate a point that despite being a competitive market you get exposure to weird things as well as bread and butter cases. We are also starting an ECMO program, I've seen 3-4 ECMO cases in the last year (probably an outlier from my class). We have a lot of well off patients who are well insured (we have a mix of the BMC crowd + chinatown patients + suburban patients that get their care with one of our specialists). The thing I miss the most is the lack of acute liver failure because the liver transplant program went to Lahey so we see mostly chronic non transplant candidate cirrhotics.
The EMR is in the process of advancing to having HPI's in the computer and eventually daily progress notes, honestly I haven't been that effected by the lack of computer notes. I know it is a big deal to some, its something that is being worked on. We are also developing e-prescribing for hospital discharges and potentially a hospital wide discharge appointment programs that takes away the responsibility to call for appointments away from us. EMR isn't necessarily a disaster, I find that the order entry is pretty easy, most nurses are pretty responsive to the orders and I don't have to call and track down people to get things done unless I feel its important and is time sensitive to get done. Nurses are also largely good, friendly and responsive; you'll have your ups and downs with them and we have IV nurses and phlebotomy to fill in the gaps so I'm rarely starting IV's or drawing blood unless its time sensitive.
The small program and the 3+1 thing kinda roll together. We are small, very small compared to some other places. That said this group of people has been like a second family, we lucked out and the R2-R3 class really gets along well can't say that happens every year but its been a great experience coming to work and being with your good friends (edit: just reread this sentence, we love the R1s too 🙂). I'm having a hard time thinking about how a 3+1 schedule would work with our numbers. The 3 week block is a good compromise and by the time you are getting really burnt out in week 6 you are shifting off service (interns to back to back 3 wk ward blocks; R2-R3 alternate on service and off service). Coverage is an issue because the pool of off service interns is very very small, and the off service R2-R3 isn't that big either. The big picture is that if you NEED to not be at the hospital we work things out and coverage gets made usually at the expense of someone's off service time so we tend to really try to be there not to screw over someone who earned their off service time. We are far from inflexible, we probably changed the delegation of admissions 2-3 times this year in response to different complaints. I was concerned about this too going in but have realized that Rick hasn't been doing this for 20+ years without being flexible, he is a huge advocate for us and having him there for so long gives his input into the hospital more weight.
The GOOD thing about the small program beyond the relationships with peers is that those odd cases I talked about above usually get discussed amonst the group of us and you learn that way as well, and there is really no competition for procedures I have many central lines, paras, LPs, a lines and feel comfortable doing these procedures without much guidance.
Tufts was the right program for me. I’ve been successful, I feel comfortable with my LORs and that the PD knows who I am and what I’m about. Our match list has been great for the last two years everyone who wanted cardiology went to a good quality program with some going to great programs (yale, upenn, upmc and BID come to mind). Our pulm match was quite good this year too (yale, ucla, nyu and one stayed on at TMC) people go into private practice or pursue translational science masters/fellowships and go into research. I’ll echo something that JDH and gutonc have been posting for years. outside of the top 10 research places most programs come down to you putting yourself in a comfortable position to succeed if thats gut feeling, geography or being the surgeon general figure it out and do it and rankings be damned.
Tldr: Tufts was the right place for me, it has good and bad aspects just like any place; YOUR job is to figure out your priorities and find the right place for YOU and I hope you have a great experience wherever you end up.
I would agree that we probably don't get paid enough, this I have no good excuse for. I'll leave my paypal data below if you wanna help a brother out 😉.
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Thanks for the very informative post! Can you tell me a little bit about if you / your peers were able to do decent clinical research (or at least stuff that wasn't just a case report), and whether the lack of EHR hindered your ability to look up e.g. retrospective data? Also, what is the pay? Is the FREIDA data accurate? And lastly, do you think that the program is really able to improve given 1) the competition in Boston and 2) the PD who has been there for a billion years?
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very solid post and great contribution. always great to see the first hand perspective as interview day experiences can definitely be skewed
I'm writing a paper right this second....my post was my distraction from completing my discussion (writing papers is a bitch). Then I'm planning an abstract, I'm working in pulmonary hypertension with the pulmonologists (who own pulm htn here rather than the cards ppl). The good thing about having nationally involved attendings is that their letters carry weight, the bad thing is most of their research is national trials where there is no role for residents and you aint gonna get your name on the paper because they are multicenter trials (mostly our cards ppl and some renal ppl). The work is there myself and some other residents are working with one of the APD's to make it more easily accessible and set up a subspecialty mentoring process. Many SDN people seem to be more academically focused, our class has a mix of people who want to be really clinical and people who want a mix of research. We are probably more of a clinical program, you are not expected to do research but it is available so this mentoring program will hopefully address more of a "medical career counseling" and networking within the research groups for resident level projects and abstracts depending on your interest. I'm probably an a little more research interested than my peers so you make time for your interests.
re: the retrospective data ? outpatient is already EHR, doing an inpatient retrospective study would probably be difficult because of the paper chart issue but vitals, labs, radiology results, medication administration is all in the EHR you have part of what you need in the computer. As I said hopefully this will improve as things move forward. I can't think of anyone I know working on large retrospective data cohorts on a resident level without fellow, student or research assistant backup. We probably don't have a lot of infrastructure for big projects but the little projects (which is all the people who went to these great programs this year) pay dividends.
Competition in Boston is fierce (look at the NIH numbers posted in a below comment BU actually has more NIH research dollars though I suspect lots of Harvard's money is in the basic science section of the chart). I think the program will try to change to respect the needs of individual residents there at the time and thats really all it needs to do. We aren't going to pull people from MGH or BWH that want big research but I think we will continue to place people in competitive fellowships at competitive programs.
Re: Rick hes been here for a long time improving the program. He just gets it. I think the most important thing is that he recognizes changes that improve resident quality of life (the prescription thing, the appointment thing) and he gets behind those things he won't sit on things and he will try something new. The most important thing I learned from him is that the personality of a small program will change a lot yearly as 1/3 of the group is new.
Edit: this didn't make sense I'm tired. Basically if you have an interest you will be accommodated with away rotations as they fit in the schedule and there is other research in Boston that you can try to get involved in but the big picture is that no one expects crazy publications just some documentation of a research interest in your CV.
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These are the following programs I am looking to match. I am an IMG. I am looking for a good internal medicine experience with the potential to go into a competitive fellowship if wanted (interested in GI.) Location does not matter much. Any opinions are appreciated. Thanks in advance!
In no particular order:
Georgetown
UT Houston
Scripps (Green)
Drexel
Washington Hospital Center
Lenox Hill
St Luke's -Roosevelt
Winthrop (NY)
In no particular order:
Georgetown
UT Houston
Scripps (Green)
Drexel
Washington Hospital Center
Lenox Hill
St Luke's -Roosevelt
Winthrop (NY)
This seems to be the ranking if one is looking to go into fellowship as Harbor has solid in-house fellowhips. However, if I am planning on going into academic hospital medicine would the rank be more like this:
USC
UCI
Cedars
Harbor
?
These programs are at the top of my list, but I have no idea how to to rank these:
University of Maryland
Montefiore
NSLIJ
Temple
SUNY Upstate
Beth Israel NYC
Purely based on the best program/best chances of getting a good fellowship (not sure which fellowship though), how do you guys think I should rank these?
University of Maryland
Montefiore
NSLIJ
Temple
SUNY Upstate
Beth Israel NYC
Purely based on the best program/best chances of getting a good fellowship (not sure which fellowship though), how do you guys think I should rank these?
Just like that.
UAB is a lot like Mayo in this regard: So hard not to be so very impressed with the institution but then . . . location.
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deleted280727
Hello, I'm posting my current list more to solicit any feedback from current residents/attendings who were debating the programs I'm considering, especially towards the top of my list. I'd be happy to compare impressions via PM.
1. Mt. Sinai
2. Cornell
3-4. BIDMC vs. Pitt
5. NYU
6. Maryland
7. Tufts
(OHSU will be on the list as well, but I haven't interviewed there yet.)
1. Mt. Sinai
2. Cornell
3-4. BIDMC vs. Pitt
5. NYU
6. Maryland
7. Tufts
(OHSU will be on the list as well, but I haven't interviewed there yet.)
"13. U of So California - people typically rank this higher but I had a pretty bad interview day there that left a bad taste in my mouth"
Hi medmopp
Can you tell me your thoughts more on USC? I have an interview there coming up and wanted to know what you meant by this. Deciding if I should cancel
Hi medmopp
Can you tell me your thoughts more on USC? I have an interview there coming up and wanted to know what you meant by this. Deciding if I should cancel
Is there a reason not to rank every program that you interview at? I'm ranking 11, the last 2 are decent programs with good match for fellowship, and would be better than scramble, but in big cities (not my thing). I'm still going to rank them, but I know people that interviewed at like 10 good programs and say that they'll rank 6.
I mean, the answer to this question is pretty obvious: Would you rather not match or go to that program?
The chances of a better program being available in the scramble is not very good.
You think that you'd rather work at Home Depot than go to one of those programs. Otherwise no. As IM2GI points out, the likelihood of there being a better program than anywhere you interviewed in SOAP is vanishingly small, and your chance of getting such a spot even lower.
The likelihood of going that low on your list is also pretty small...but it's not 0.
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