Question about Mayo and reputation

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mxns

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I am confused about where Mayo medical school is reputation-wise. Its US News Ranking isn't great (and its residency program director rank is not great). It seems to have a general regional bias in its student body (although this might happen at all schools, to some degree). But when I interviewed there, I met students who had picked it over other less ambiguously top schools (Hopkins, Harvard, WashU) and from reading other threads, it seems like everybody is in absolutely love with Mayo. I definitely enjoyed my time there but want to know if picking Mayo over a higher-ranked school would be a disadvantage to me later on. I want to go into academic medicine.

So where exactly does Mayo stand? Is it worth going to over US News-ranked top 15 schools?

(Pretend location doesn't matter.)

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Mayo is among the best (most elite) medical schools. You just have to say "***** the USWR rankings" and accept that no-one will be disadvantaged for going to Mayo. Whether you want to live in Rochester, MN is another question!
 
I am confused about where Mayo medical school is reputation-wise. Its US News Ranking isn't great (and its residency program director rank is not great). It seems to have a general regional bias in its student body (although this might happen at all schools, to some degree). But when I interviewed there, I met students who had picked it over other less ambiguously top schools (Hopkins, Harvard, WashU) and from reading other threads, it seems like everybody is in absolutely love with Mayo. I definitely enjoyed my time there but want to know if picking Mayo over a higher-ranked school would be a disadvantage to me later on. I want to go into academic medicine.

So where exactly does Mayo stand? Is it worth going to over US News-ranked top 15 schools?

(Pretend location doesn't matter.)

#25 isn't great? You are hard to please, friendo!
 
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Mayo is a great school. I interviewed there and think academics-wise it compares with any school. However, the city itself is a whole different topic...
 
I am confused about where Mayo medical school is reputation-wise. Its US News Ranking isn't great (and its residency program director rank is not great). It seems to have a general regional bias in its student body (although this might happen at all schools, to some degree). But when I interviewed there, I met students who had picked it over other less ambiguously top schools (Hopkins, Harvard, WashU) and from reading other threads, it seems like everybody is in absolutely love with Mayo. I definitely enjoyed my time there but want to know if picking Mayo over a higher-ranked school would be a disadvantage to me later on. I want to go into academic medicine.

So where exactly does Mayo stand? Is it worth going to over US News-ranked top 15 schools?

(Pretend location doesn't matter.)

From my limited knowledge it seems that Mayo is very highly regarded in the Midwest region but less well known outside of the Midwest. Students typically have a harder time matching to top residencies outside of the region (all else equal). There aren't many other medical schools like Mayo in terms of class size, curriculum, values, etc. so it's a school that really speaks to some people and then not to others.
 
From my limited knowledge it seems that Mayo is very highly regarded in the Midwest region but less well known outside of the Midwest. Students typically have a harder time matching to top residencies outside of the region (all else equal). There aren't many other medical schools like Mayo in terms of class size, curriculum, values, etc. so it's a school that really speaks to some people and then not to others.
Less well-known? Really ..?

Anyone in medicine who's not familiar with the Mayo Clinic, if not the Mayo Medical School specifically, lives under a rock. If you can bear to be in Rochester for 4 years (just immerse yourself really, really deeply into your work) then give it some serious thought. Plus, it probably bears consideration that if residencies favor their own candidates, then you have to factor in that Mayo has top-ranked residencies in a number of competitive fields.
 
Not only that, Mayo is one of the country's most selective schools, as well. Of course a large part of that is due to the tiny class size (not to say that's a bad thing)....

Maybe in another life, Mayo... 😍
 
Less well-known? Really ..?

Anyone in medicine who's not familiar with the Mayo Clinic, if not the Mayo Medical School specifically, lives under a rock. If you can bear to be in Rochester for 4 years (just immerse yourself really, really deeply into your work) then give it some serious thought. Plus, it probably bears consideration that if residencies favor their own candidates, then you have to factor in that Mayo has top-ranked residencies in a number of competitive fields.

Relax. And yes, really. Don't go around speaking as if you have some sort of special knowledge about this when in all likelihood you know very little about MMS/how it is viewed from various perspectives by various parties - this is a topic that neither you nor I fully understand, so don't act like you do. The information I provided I've gathered from looking at match lists as well as insights from people involved in residency selections. It's a well-known school but there's a difference between knowing of a school's existence and how residency directors look at a school from the perspective of selecting applicants.
 
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If there is one thing that I have learned, its that the ranking system is completely bogus. Look at match lists - they match multiple people into derm, multiple into neurosurgery, ortho surg, and their class size is only 40 something! Think of that in terms of %class. Their average debt is 75k (haha, one year at many schools), and the number 1 faculty to student ratio (2.5 faculty members per student higher than the next highest school (Harvard)). Talk about attention, networking, and opportunity. In my mind it is pretty obvious why someone would choose Mayo over Harvard.

And location makes it pretty obvious why someone would not haha
 
Relax. And yes, really. Don't go around speaking as if you have some sort of special knowledge about this when in all likelihood you know very little about MMS/how it is viewed from various perspectives by various parties - this is a topic that neither you nor I fully understand, so don't act like you do. The information I provided I've gathered from looking at match lists as well as insights from people involved in residency selections. It's a well-known school but there's a difference between knowing of a school's existence and how residency directors look at school from the perspective of selecting applicants.

I can give you one perspective. I am acquaintences with a Dean from a top public medical school. He advised me to not pass up on Mayo, because it's one of the most well-regarded medical schools in the country and provides an unprecedented level of opportunity.

I'm not sure why you think MMS graduates are at a disadvantage for matching outside of the region. Where MMS students match is likely the result of preference not bias against them.

Considering what residency directors seek in an applicant, MMS sets its students up very well to compete for whichever residency they desire; its up to the student to capitalize on the opportunities presented. Look at the curriculum, the environment, research opportunities, faculty to student ratio, shadow opportunities, rotations, consider the letters of recommendations students can get, and the resources the school can provide to its <50 students.
 
I can give you one perspective. I am acquaintences with a Dean from a top public medical school. He advised me to not pass up on Mayo, because it's one of the most well-regarded medical schools in the country and provides an unprecedented level of opportunity.

I'm not sure why you think MMS graduates are at a disadvantage for matching outside of the region. Where MMS students match is likely the result of preference not bias against them.

Considering what residency directors seek in an applicant, MMS sets its students up very well to compete for whichever residency they desire; its up to the student to capitalize on the opportunities presented. Look at the curriculum, the environment, research opportunities, faculty to student ratio, shadow opportunities, rotations, consider the letters of recommendations students can get, and the resources the school can provide to its <50 students.

I know, intuitively I suppose, that MMS is a great school. But, other than the small class size and phenomenal financial aid, there isn't much else that sets it apart that I can see.

-The curriculum? The curriculum is great, but not unusually unique or innovative. All of its highlights are actually quite common in medical schools across the states (as is so for most other top schools). I don't believe curriculum is what a makes a top school, well, "top." We've gotten to the point where ALL U.S. MD program curricula are great.
-The environment? It seems like the consensus is that the environment is the one thing that is actually unusually bad about MMS. Rochester isn't the most exciting place to live in.
-Research opportunities? It seems that, while MMS certainly has some wonderful options, there are many other schools with equal or even more opportunities available. Given that the USNWR rankings are based, primarily, on NIH funding, it seems MMS is actually a bit behind compared to other top programs.
-Shadow Opportunities + Rotations are, admittedly, probably pretty awesome because they would be at Mayo Clinic. But many other top schools have powerhouse medical institutions attached to them as well.
-Access to strong letters of recommendation? That is hardly unique to any program and largely unrelated to the strength of a school. That has to do with the individual applicant.
-Access to resources? I consider all of the above examples of resources and thus this point seems redundant. Its simply another word for everything else that was listed.

The only thing that in that list that is really unique to MMS (in my opinion) is the great faculty to student ratio because of the incredibly small class size. But, this is hardly enough to warrant the huge reputation of MMS. What I believe is ACTUALLY very unique, innovative, and special is MAYO CLINIC, not Mayo Medical School. MMS (and honestly, most medical schools in general) are all pretty standard.

tldr - OP, I don't think Mayo will not leave you disadvantaged in any way. No top U.S. MD school will. I believe its rep is derived mainly from its affiliation with Mayo Clinic. Personally, I believe name recognition, environment, and financial aid are all that set top med schools apart. And, at least in the first two categories, you could find better elsewhere. Just matters what is important to you.
 
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I know, intuitively I suppose, that MMS is a great school. But, other than the small class size and phenomenal financial aid, there isn't much else that sets it apart that I can see.

-The curriculum? The curriculum is great, but not unusually unique or innovative. All of its highlights are actually quite common in medical schools across the states (as is so for most other top schools). I don't believe curriculum is what a makes a top school, well, "top." We've gotten to the point where ALL U.S. MD program curricula are great.
-The environment? It seems like the consensus is that the environment is the one thing that is actually unusually bad about MMS. Rochester isn't the most exciting place to live in.
-Research opportunities? It seems that, while MMS certainly has some wonderful options, there are many other schools with equal or even more opportunities available. Given that the USNWR rankings are based, primarily, on NIH funding, it seems MMS is actually a bit behind compared to other top programs.
-Shadow Opportunities + Rotations are, admittedly, probably pretty awesome because they would be at Mayo Clinic. But many other top schools have powerhouse medical institutions attached to them as well.
-Access to strong letters of recommendation? That is hardly unique to any program and largely unrelated to the strength of a school. That has to do with the individual applicant.
-Access to resources? I consider all of the above examples of resources and thus this point seems redundant. Its simply another word for everything else that was listed.

The only thing that in that list that is really unique to MMS (in my opinion) is the great faculty to student ratio because of the incredibly small class size. But, this is hardly enough to warrant the huge reputation of MMS. What I believe is ACTUALLY very unique, innovative, and special is MAYO CLINIC, not Mayo Medical School. MMS (and honestly, most medical schools in general) are all pretty standard.

tldr - OP, I don't think Mayo will not leave you disadvantaged in any way. No top U.S. MD school will. I believe its rep is derived mainly from its affiliation with Mayo Clinic. Personally, I believe name recognition, environment, and financial aid are all that set top med schools apart. And, at least in the first two categories, you could find better elsewhere. Just matters what is important to you.

It is clear that you aren't very familiar with MMS or Rochester. That's ok - but it would have been cool if you at least acknowledged the obvious ways MMS is different. I'm not saying MMS is better - but they certainly aren't standard and attending MMS will be looked upon positively.

About the Curriculum: After almost all 6-week study blocks, MMS includes 2-weeks that are designated for the student to spend as they please, which are called selectives. Over the first 2 years, there are 29 weeks of selectives. Many of these weeks must be used for enriching experiences, but many can also be used as vacation. Although MMS has pre-existing selectives to choose from, they also give any student the opportunity to do what they want. For example, if I want to shadow a physician at MGH, it won't be a problem. If I feel compelled to lobby for a healthcare change at DC, we have that selective too. I would argue this is truly innovative. Here's what MMS says:

"Selectives enrich the Mayo Medical School curriculum by encouraging innovation and leadership while offering a tremendous variety of learning experiences. Selectives are a significant component of our school's curriculum because they..." you can see the rest here http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/md/curriculum/selectives

About the environment: As far as medical education goes, Rochester is a dream location, and that's many student's #1 priority. I was referring to the learning environment - not living. But you can read about how Rochester is expanding: http://dmc.mn/dmc-overview.php

"Mayo Medical School is in the heart of downtown Rochester, a vibrant, friendly city that provides a highly livable environment for more than 57,000 medical staff, students, and administrators...Mayo Clinic Hospital, Saint Marys Campus, and Mayo Clinic Hospital, Methodist Campus, are integral in providing essential inpatient learning experiences for medical students." more at http://www.mayo.edu/mms/campus-life

About Research Opportunities: Research rankings are entirely irrelevant here, for many reasons not the least of which is that we are medical students, not faculty, post-docs or graduate students. I have a PhD with 11 publications to date; what research I can do at a medical school is going to be limited by my time, not my school's budget or our research ranking. That being said, MMS has <50 medical students per class, a lot of investigators and a lot of money. Many first years are involved in one or more research projects of their choice- that's what matters. read more http://www.mayo.edu/research and more http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/md/research-options and more http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/md/research-quarter

About shadow opportunities and rotations: Shadow opportunities are not restricted to the Mayo Clinic. With selective-time and a family in Boston, I plan to shadow several times, if not often, at MGH to get my foot in the door for a residency.

Access to strong letters of recommendation: <50 students and >3000 local Mayo physicians + ability to shadow anywhere = great letters. It's not just about the students, it's about opportunity, which is in surplus at MMS.

The above is not a comprehensive list of resources at MMS:

Here are more: http://www.mayo.edu/mms/resources

and lets not forget academic enrichment programs like these: http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/academic-enrichment

(It is possible to get a JD in 2 years without taking the LSAT from ASU as a MMS student)

or Mayo-Jacksonville or Mayo-Scottsdale, where you can do your clerkships
 
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I am confused about where Mayo medical school is reputation-wise. Its US News Ranking isn't great (and its residency program director rank is not great). It seems to have a general regional bias in its student body (although this might happen at all schools, to some degree). But when I interviewed there, I met students who had picked it over other less ambiguously top schools (Hopkins, Harvard, WashU) and from reading other threads, it seems like everybody is in absolutely love with Mayo. I definitely enjoyed my time there but want to know if picking Mayo over a higher-ranked school would be a disadvantage to me later on. I want to go into academic medicine.

So where exactly does Mayo stand? Is it worth going to over US News-ranked top 15 schools?

(Pretend location doesn't matter.)

How is top 25 not a great rank? at some point past top 5 to top 25, rankings become a bit more trivial. people also chose it over the other "top" schools because of the half tuition. And since you're using ranking, it may soothe your soul to know it's ranked #3 in the US News ranking for best hospitals, right behind Mass General and right above the Cleveland Clinic. I personally ended up choosing the Cleveland Clinic program at Case Western over Mayo because of the full tuition and unique curriculum (no grades/exams not even pass/fail for all 5 years, classes until noon, thursdays off) but it was a tough decision. There is also a lot of regionalism with the top 15 (UCSF, Michigan, Pitt, Mt. Sinai, NYU, WashU, University of Washington, UCSD are not typical medical powerhouses that come to mind when you ask the average person even though they clearly are). Hospitals like Mayo/Cleveland Clinic have a "brand-name" in medicine despite not having a university with the same brand. I would argue that having a university makes it easier for the hospital to establish a brand so it's a great feat when Mayo and Cleveland Clinic establish their own legacy. Unless you're getting half/full tuition at another top 15 school, Mayo is certainly a great option.
 
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It is clear that you aren't very familiar with MMS or Rochester. That's ok - but it would have been cool if you at least acknowledged the obvious ways MMS is different. I'm not saying MMS is better - but they certainly aren't standard and attending MMS will be looked upon positively.

About the Curriculum: After almost all 6-week study blocks, MMS includes 2-weeks that are designated for the student to spend as they please, which are called selectives. Over the first 2 years, there are 29 weeks of selectives. Many of these weeks must be used for enriching experiences, but many can also be used as vacation. Although MMS has pre-existing selectives to choose from, they also give any student the opportunity to do what they want. For example, if I want to shadow a physician at MGH, it won't be a problem. If I feel compelled to lobby for a healthcare change at DC, we have that selective too. I would argue this is truly innovative. Here's what MMS says:

"Selectives enrich the Mayo Medical School curriculum by encouraging innovation and leadership while offering a tremendous variety of learning experiences. Selectives are a significant component of our school's curriculum because they..." you can see the rest here http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/md/curriculum/selectives

About the environment: As far as medical education goes, Rochester is a dream location, and that's many student's #1 priority. I was referring to the learning environment - not living. But you can read about how Rochester is expanding: http://dmc.mn/dmc-overview.php

"Mayo Medical School is in the heart of downtown Rochester, a vibrant, friendly city that provides a highly livable environment for more than 57,000 medical staff, students, and administrators...Mayo Clinic Hospital, Saint Marys Campus, and Mayo Clinic Hospital, Methodist Campus, are integral in providing essential inpatient learning experiences for medical students." more at http://www.mayo.edu/mms/campus-life

About Research Opportunities: Research rankings are entirely irrelevant here, for many reasons not the least of which is that we are medical students, not faculty, post-docs or graduate students. I have a PhD with 11 publications to date; what research I can do at a medical school is going to be limited by my time, not my school's budget or our research ranking. That being said, MMS has <50 medical students per class, a lot of investigators and a lot of money. Many first years are involved in one or more research projects of their choice- that's what matters. read more http://www.mayo.edu/research and more http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/md/research-options and more http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/md/research-quarter

About shadow opportunities and rotations: Shadow opportunities are not restricted to the Mayo Clinic. With selective-time and a family in Boston, I plan to shadow several times, if not often, at MGH to get my foot in the door for a residency.

Access to strong letters of recommendation: <50 students and >3000 local Mayo physicians + ability to shadow anywhere = great letters. It's not just about the students, it's about opportunity, which is in surplus at MMS.

The above is not a comprehensive list of resources at MMS:

Here are more: http://www.mayo.edu/mms/resources

and lets not forget academic enrichment programs like these: http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/academic-enrichment

(It is possible to get a JD in 2 years without taking the LSAT from ASU as a MMS student)

or Mayo-Jacksonville or Mayo-Scottsdale, where you can do your clerkships

Lol, well you've done it...you've made it so that now I almost wish I had to go through the application process again so I could apply to MMS.

But in all reality, Mayo seems incredibly well known. Worked in DC in health services in the public sector and Mayo was very much known and incredibly well-regarded. Currently in the UK and working for the NHS and if physicians/management knows any hospitals in the US they're Hopkins, Mayo, "Harvard", and sometimes the Cleveland Clinic for specific specialties. I've traveled quite a bit and met many physicians from the continent as well - for the most part they don't know all that many US hospitals (even the ones we consider top, which actually surprised me until I realized I still don't know the best hospitals in Europe lol...), but Mayo is one of the ones that a normal chunk actually seem to recognize.

This is somewhat a straw man to OP, as I'm aware anecdotal evidence from a convenience sample of the Mayo name in the public sector of health services and in Europe does little for residency, but hopefully it serves to show the brand as a whole is clearly world-renowned and as such probably has as good a reputation as any med student could need for just about any job involving healthcare.
 
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I
It is clear that you aren't very familiar with MMS or Rochester. That's ok - but it would have been cool if you at least acknowledged the obvious ways MMS is different. I'm not saying MMS is better - but they certainly aren't standard and attending MMS will be looked upon positively.

About the Curriculum: After almost all 6-week study blocks, MMS includes 2-weeks that are designated for the student to spend as they please, which are called selectives. Over the first 2 years, there are 29 weeks of selectives. Many of these weeks must be used for enriching experiences, but many can also be used as vacation. Although MMS has pre-existing selectives to choose from, they also give any student the opportunity to do what they want. For example, if I want to shadow a physician at MGH, it won't be a problem. If I feel compelled to lobby for a healthcare change at DC, we have that selective too. I would argue this is truly innovative. Here's what MMS says:

"Selectives enrich the Mayo Medical School curriculum by encouraging innovation and leadership while offering a tremendous variety of learning experiences. Selectives are a significant component of our school's curriculum because they..." you can see the rest here http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/md/curriculum/selectives

About the environment: As far as medical education goes, Rochester is a dream location, and that's many student's #1 priority. I was referring to the learning environment - not living. But you can read about how Rochester is expanding: http://dmc.mn/dmc-overview.php

"Mayo Medical School is in the heart of downtown Rochester, a vibrant, friendly city that provides a highly livable environment for more than 57,000 medical staff, students, and administrators...Mayo Clinic Hospital, Saint Marys Campus, and Mayo Clinic Hospital, Methodist Campus, are integral in providing essential inpatient learning experiences for medical students." more at http://www.mayo.edu/mms/campus-life

About Research Opportunities: Research rankings are entirely irrelevant here, for many reasons not the least of which is that we are medical students, not faculty, post-docs or graduate students. I have a PhD with 11 publications to date; what research I can do at a medical school is going to be limited by my time, not my school's budget or our research ranking. That being said, MMS has <50 medical students per class, a lot of investigators and a lot of money. Many first years are involved in one or more research projects of their choice- that's what matters. read more http://www.mayo.edu/research and more http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/md/research-options and more http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/md/research-quarter

About shadow opportunities and rotations: Shadow opportunities are not restricted to the Mayo Clinic. With selective-time and a family in Boston, I plan to shadow several times, if not often, at MGH to get my foot in the door for a residency.

Access to strong letters of recommendation: <50 students and >3000 local Mayo physicians + ability to shadow anywhere = great letters. It's not just about the students, it's about opportunity, which is in surplus at MMS.

The above is not a comprehensive list of resources at MMS:

Here are more: http://www.mayo.edu/mms/resources

and lets not forget academic enrichment programs like these: http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/academic-enrichment

(It is possible to get a JD in 2 years without taking the LSAT from ASU as a MMS student)

or Mayo-Jacksonville or Mayo-Scottsdale, where you can do your clerkships
I don't want to get into a lengthy debate here and you likely do know more about the school than me. But, from my research, it just doesn't seem all that unique. I don't mean that as an insult at all. As I've stated before, I believe this is true of most, if not all, medical schools. The whole process has become so standardized there is little room for variation. And I, for one, think that's great. We, as US med students, will be well off no matter where we go.

1) I've known about selectives for a while so that's not new to me. While they do indeed sound great, I don't believe they are all that unique. The majority of the weeks off are just vacation days that you would get at every other school. And all the things students do with that free time (research, clinical experiences, etc...) are done at most other schools throughout the year and during vacations. Every student at all the schools I've been to have stated that they've had more than enough time to pursue all of their extracurricular interests.

2) Yes, Rochester (or rather the Mayo area) is a great learning environment. But, again, this is not unique. I'd argue that ALL top medical schools have outstanding learning environments. As for your quote about Rochester's expansion, I doubt that expansion has reached a point where Rochester is more desirable than places like NY, Boston, Philly, etc... It does have its charms though.

3) If we are considering research opportunities as something that makes a school unique, than we have to consider the amount of funding a school receives. We can't just ignore that because funding is correlated with the quality of research at an institution. But still, your statement only further serves my point. Once you've reached a certain caliber of schools, timing is a bigger constraint on research than the availability of research opportunities. Students at all such schools will have more opportunities than they need. Thus, again, this does not make Mayo unique as your original post suggested.

4) Your statement about shadow opportunities, again, furthers my point. Most, if not all top schools, allow you to shadow elsewhere. And thus where you shadow has little to do with the institution you attend. This can not be used to defend Mayo's peculiar reputation.

5) About strong letters of recc. A high faculty:student ratio != great recommendations. Although Mayo students have many options, I do not believe they shadow any more physicians than students at another school. Refer to what you yourself said about research - time is more of a constraint than the lack of opportunities.

6) Everything on that resource page, as well as the above statements, are common to pretty much all schools. Just take a long at the website of any random school of your choosing. Lastly, those academic enrichment programs are abound in med schools. You and I both know that.

So, as I previously stated, I don't believe anything about MMS is unique enough to justify the peculiar reputation it has that OP questioned. Rather, its probably just its affiliation with one of the best (possibly, THE best) hospital in the world.
 
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I don't want to get into a lengthy debate here and you likely do know more about the school than me. But, from my research, it just doesn't seem all that unique. I don't mean that as an insult at all. As I've stated before, I believe this is true of most, if not all, medical schools. The whole process has become so standardized there is little room for variation. And I, for one, think that's great. We, as US med students, will be well off no matter where we go.

1) I've known about selectives for a while so that's not new to me. While they do indeed sound great, I don't believe they are all that unique. The majority of the weeks off are just vacation days that you would get at every other school. And all the things students do with that free time (research, clinical experiences, etc...) are done at most other schools throughout the year and during vacations. Every student at all the schools I've been to have stated that they've had more than enough time to pursue all of their extracurricular interests.

2) Yes, Rochester (or rather the Mayo area) is a great learning environment. But, again, this is not unique. I'd argue that ALL top medical schools have outstanding learning environments. As for your quote about Rochester's expansion, I doubt that expansion has reached a point where Rochester is more desirable than places like NY, Boston, Philly, etc... It does have its charms though.

3) If we are considering research opportunities as something that makes a school unique, than we have to consider the amount of funding a school receives. We can't just ignore that because funding is correlated with the quality of research at an institution. But still, your statement only further serves my point. Once you've reached a certain caliber of schools, timing is a bigger constraint on research than the availability of research opportunities. Students at all such schools will have more opportunities than they need. Thus, again, this does not make Mayo unique as your original post suggested.

4) Your statement about shadow opportunities, again, furthers my point. Most, if not all top schools, allow you to shadow elsewhere. And thus where you shadow has little to do with the institution you attend. This can not be used to defend Mayo's peculiar reputation.

5) About strong letters of recc. A high faculty:student ratio != great recommendations. Although Mayo students have many options, I do not believe they shadow any more physicians than students at another school. Refer to what you yourself said about research - time is more of a constraint than the lack of opportunities.

6) Everything on that resource page, as well as the above statements, are common to pretty much all schools. Just take a long at the website of any random school of your choosing. Lastly, those academic enrichment programs are abound in med schools. You and I both know that.

So, as I previously stated, I don't believe anything about MMS is unique enough to justify the peculiar reputation it has that OP questioned. Rather, its probably just its affiliation with one of the best (possibly, THE best) hospital in the world.

You are correct; you do have a limited understanding about MMS and it is negatively affecting your opinion. For the sake of an accurate and informative post, you should reel that in. Specifically, I caution you against continuing to mistake similarities shared with other top institutions for non-uniqueness; each aspect is a constituent of a whole, and taken together, MMS is absolutely unique. The burden is yours to prove otherwise.

Moreover, it is a sisyphean task to attempt to dissect MMS's reputation from the Mayo Clinic; it is not only a product of the Mayo Clinic, but that's where your education takes place and this assocation brings value to MMS.

On a personal note, my decision to matriculate at MMS next year is not because it is considered the best, or top, medical school. It's because I consider it the best medical school for me out of those that I have considered both pre-application and post. Getting back to the OP, my postings here are not to defend or assert thatMMS is a top medical school (even though I think it is, in its own way), but to provide information as to why students would choose MMS.
 
You are correct; you do have a limited understanding about MMS and it is negatively affecting your opinion. For the sake of an accurate and informative post, you should reel that in. Specifically, I caution you against continuing to mistake similarities shared with other top institutions for non-uniqueness; each aspect is a constituent of a whole, and taken together, MMS is absolutely unique. The burden is yours to prove otherwise.

Moreover, it is a sisyphean task to attempt to dissect MMS's reputation from the Mayo Clinic; it is not only a product of the Mayo Clinic, but that's where your education takes place and this assocation brings value to MMS.

On a personal note, my decision to matriculate at MMS next year is not because it is considered the best, or top, medical school. It's because I consider it the best medical school for me out of those that I have considered both pre-application and post. Getting back to the OP, my postings here are not to defend or assert thatMMS is a top medical school (even though I think it is, in its own way), but to provide information as to why students would choose MMS.

I'm afraid you might think I'm trolling you or something. On the contrary, I'm actually enjoying this conversation as I'm getting to convey a lot of the opinions I've had since the beginning of this cycle. I've no problem with my opinions being wrong and am more then willing to accept the viewpoint of another.

Anyway, yes, I do have a limited understanding about MMS. But I believe I have as good an understanding as anyone with a laptop and internet access can have. I did not interview at the school as you did, so you have the upper hand here. Prove my points wrong if they are and teach me - I don't believe you've done that yet.

I am not just nitpicking specific things in Mayo and comparing them to other random schools. That would be a poor argument. I'm saying that most things at Mayo are found at pretty much every other top school as well. I am not comparing constituents, I'm comparing the whole. My point stands.

And nowhere did I attempt to remove MMS from Mayo Clinic. On the contrary, I'm saying MMS owes its reputation to Mayo Clinic because the two are so intertwined. Again, I think MMS is an excellent school, but not because of anything unusually unique about the curriculum, research opportunities, strong letters of rec or any of the other things you stated. I believe it is excellent mainly because of that association with Mayo Clinic.

Lastly, I can totally understand why you would think Mayo was the best school for you. I thought it was great too. Just not for the same reason(s) I suppose.
 

Having spent the last six years at Mayo, and having tons of interaction with med students, residents, and faculty. I'm going to step in and disagree or clarify a few things here.

While some of the things MMS does might not initially seem unique compared to other top institutions, I think the way some of these things are carried out makes a difference.

1. The selectives aren't largely vacation time. There is a certain number of weeks you need to do a structured activity and they are highly regarded by students. It's a great way to get to explore a wide variety of specialty areas as well during first and second year, so you have a better idea of what you want to do earlier in the game and can make connections and set yourself up better for residency applications.

2. Teaching- there is actually a list of people wanting to teach the med students at MMS and being selected to teach is actually a pretty competitive process. The people who will be teaching you do it because they want to, not because its part of their job requirement when what they'd rather be doing is sitting in the lab doing research. One of the medical students told me that during first year they felt like they weren't getting what the needed from one of the instructors and even though he was far from terrible, the administration responded to the students concerns and he didn't teach the course again. I've heard from several students
there aren't issues like some schools where you have a PhD come in and talk in great detail about his tiny little molecule of interest at the expensive of more relevant content for medical students.


I'm an employee and not a student, but I still frequently find myself impressed by the number of faculty around here who love to teach. I had to wake a consultant up at 3 a.m. because the resident wasn't returning our pages. Instead of being pissed, he talked to the patient's provider, told us he was glad we called him and proceeded to go into a detailed account of the patients pathophysiology, how interesting it was, and answered a few questions, gave us the ok for the providers request, and then tried to track down the resident.

My team expressed an interest in learning more about some of the challenging cases we dealt with, so two of consultants (one was head of our division) took time out of their insanely busy schedules to do weekly case conferences with us.

This is more the norm, not a rare occurrence. It's a very team oriented and collegial environment. Quite a few places make that claim, but don't always live up to it. Here they do.

3. Mentoring- at some big name places there is a pretty rigid hierarchy in place and as a med student the majority of your interactions are with the interns and residents, and while you'll interact with attendings too, they aren't quite as accessible. Especially some of the big name people. At Mayo, they are very accessible and approachable. The med students get quite a bit of one on one, including early on during things like the selectives. This is where stronger LORs can come into play. The more one on one face time you have with someone and the longer they've known you, the better letter they can write. This is far better than some places where your letter is written by an attending who knows you through a few brief interactions and a lot of input from the residents.

4. Match list/Rochester. Ok so for most people, especially people from the coasts and warmer climates, Rochester is not going going to seem like the greatest place to live. The weather sucks for a good chunk of the year, its small and can be difficult to find stuff to do if you're used to living in a major city. There winds up being a lot of selection bias in people who ultimately decide to attend MMS. Rochester is not for everyone, but for some its a good fit. You have to know ts right for you.

While MMS is very diverse there is a bit of over representation by Midwesterners, because they like the Midwest, want to stick close to family, lower cost of living, good place to raise a family, etc.

Despite the number of residents who keep coming to pre-allo to explain why you can't predict things with match lists you all still insist on scrutinizing them. But the big question is not "are people matching at big name institutions outside of the Midwest". The question is "are people matching where they want to in the specialty that they want to" and no match list tells you that. Every year I've been here everybody has matched and according to the school about 95% match at one of their top three choices. According to the students, people are quite happy where they wind up and quite a few have no desire to leave Mayo for residency. So quite a few stick around, not because they couldn't go elsewhere, but because they didn't want to.

There are people who match to the big programs out east. Where you can go is largely a function of you. At any of the better schools, you are your own biggest limiting factor with respect to where you match.

5. Research. There are some people doing great basic science research here, but I would agree we're not a powerhouse institution in that area. While you'll be able to find someone to work with, your choices will be a bit limited. There are far better places to go if this is what you want to do.

Clinical/translational research is a great strength here though and they are also really expanding things like epidemiology and health outcomes research. Medical students on up can get certificates or masters degrees in clinical and translational science if they want in addition to the other options noted above,

It is a graduation requirement to publish and the school has a required 13 week research block. Most students have multiple pubs.

Mayo has a ridiculous amount of money coming in the form of donations from really loaded benefactors and a good chunk of that goes to research here. That offsets some of the need to seek NIH funding.


Don't get me wrong, this place is far from perfect and I can find plenty to gripe about. Just not the stuff discussed above.
 
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Umm, I'm pretty sure that the reputation of MAYO CLINIC extends far beyond the midwestern united states. People conurbate from all corners of the world in Rochester, MN to seek out the best treatment for their high-acuity cases. Mayo is also in the USNWR top 25, so if you're a rankings slave, it should measure up to that 'standard' as well. Quite frankly, the person who graduates at the bottom of their class at MMS is still going to be calling most of the shots of their early career, with regards to residency selection. Having the name MAYO CLINIC on your CV is a blue ribbon of distinction, whether you are a medical student, a resident, or a fellow.
 
Having spent the last six years at Mayo, and having tons of interaction with med students, residents, and faculty. I'm going to step in and disagree or clarify a few things here.

While some of the things MMS does might not initially seem unique compared to other top institutions, I think the way some of these things are carried out makes a difference.

1. The selectives aren't largely vacation time. There is a certain number of weeks you need to do a structured activity and they are highly regarded by students. It's a great way to get to explore a wide variety of specialty areas as well during first and second year, so you have a better idea of what you want to do earlier in the game and can make connections and set yourself up better for residency applications.

2. Teaching- there is actually a list of people wanting to teach the med students at MMS and being selected to teach is actually a pretty competitive process. The people who will be teaching you do it because they want to, not because its part of their job requirement when what they'd rather be doing is sitting in the lab doing research. One of the medical students told me that during first year they felt like they weren't getting what the needed from one of the instructors and even though he was far from terrible, the administration responded to the students concerns and he didn't teach the course again. I've heard from several students
there aren't issues like some schools where you have a PhD come in and talk in great detail about his tiny little molecule of interest at the expensive of more relevant content for medical students.


I'm an employee and not a student, but I still frequently find myself impressed by the number of faculty around here who love to teach. I had to wake a consultant up at 3 a.m. because the resident wasn't returning our pages. Instead of being pissed, he talked to the patient's provider, told us he was glad we called him and proceeded to go into a detailed account of the patients pathophysiology, how interesting it was, and answered a few questions, gave us the ok for the providers request, and then tried to track down the resident.

My team expressed an interest in learning more about some of the challenging cases we dealt with, so two of consultants (one was head of our division) took time out of their insanely busy schedules to do weekly case conferences with us.

This is more the norm, not a rare occurrence. It's a very team oriented and collegial environment. Quite a few places make that claim, but don't always live up to it. Here they do.

3. Mentoring- at some big name places there is a pretty rigid hierarchy in place and as a med student the majority of your interactions are with the interns and residents, and while you'll interact with attendings too, they aren't quite as accessible. Especially some of the big name people. At Mayo, they are very accessible and approachable. The med students get quite a bit of one on one, including early on during things like the selectives. This is where stronger LORs can come into play. The more one on one face time you have with someone and the longer they've known you, the better letter they can write. This is far better than some places where your letter is written by an attending who knows you through a few brief interactions and a lot of input from the residents.

4. Match list/Rochester. Ok so for most people, especially people from the coasts and warmer climates, Rochester is not going going to seem like the greatest place to live. The weather sucks for a good chunk of the year, its small and can be difficult to find stuff to do if you're used to living in a major city. There winds up being a lot of selection bias in people who ultimately decide to attend MMS. Rochester is not for everyone, but for some its a good fit. You have to know ts right for you.

While MMS is very diverse there is a bit of over representation by Midwesterners, because they like the Midwest, want to stick close to family, lower cost of living, good place to raise a family, etc.

Despite the number of residents who keep coming to pre-allo to explain why you can't predict things with match lists you all still insist on scrutinizing them. But the big question is not "are people matching at big name institutions outside of the Midwest". The question is "are people matching where they want to in the specialty that they want to" and no match list tells you that. Every year I've been here everybody has matched and according to the school about 95% match at one of their top three choices. According to the students, people are quite happy where they wind up and quite a few have no desire to leave Mayo for residency. So quite a few stick around, not because they couldn't go elsewhere, but because they didn't want to.

There are people who match to the big programs out east. Where you can go is largely a function of you. At any of the better schools, you are your own biggest limiting factor with respect to where you match.

5. Research. There are some people doing great basic science research here, but I would agree we're not a powerhouse institution in that area. While you'll be able to find someone to work with, your choices will be a bit limited. There are far better places to go if this is what you want to do.

Clinical/translational research is a great strength here though and they are also really expanding things like epidemiology and health outcomes research. Medical students on up can get certificates or masters degrees in clinical and translational science if they want in addition to the other options noted above,

It is a graduation requirement to publish and the school has a required 13 week research block. Most students have multiple pubs.

Mayo has a ridiculous amount of money coming in the form of donations from really loaded benefactors and a good chunk of that goes to research here. That offsets some of the need to seek NIH funding.


Don't get me wrong, this place is far from perfect and I can find plenty to gripe about. Just not the stuff discussed above.
I'm half asleep and didn't really get to read this post thoroughly. But, from my quick skimming, this seems like a beautiful and informative post. Thank you my friend.
Still some questions, disagreements, and general comments I'd like to add, but I'll save that for the morning.
 
The OP's original question was not whether Mayo is unique, or whether it is a good school, or whether people know of its existence. The answer to all three of those questions is undeniably "yes." The OP, however, asked whether it would potentially be a disadvantage to go there over other top schools taking into account that he wants to go into academic medicine. Considering Mayo's match lists and residency director assessments of MMS, my opinion here is yes - it potentially is a disadvantage, all other things equal. Since all other things aren't ever equal in practical situations, take this as you will. MMS is known to be more focused on clinical rather than academic medicine (don't get me wrong, it's still in the ~top 20 for NIH funding, but it's better known for other things) and most MMS graduates don't go to top academic residencies (don't take my word for it, google it; I'm not saying this is a bad thing at all, it's just something to be aware of, going back to OP's question). That doesn't appear to be the focus of MMS.
 
Feel free to disagree, but please let go of the match list fallacy. There are numerous posts on here by residents on up as to why using match lists as a gauge is misguided. They are meaningless unless you know where people wanted to go. If people go where they want, they had a successful match, even if its not to MGH.

Heck, most premeds and early med students haven't the slightest clue what the top programs are for each specialty. Quite a few seem to think its the same as the med school rankings. The well respected programs for EM s going to be a very different list than for PM&R or ObGyn.

I don't think you'll put yourself at a disadvantage going there.

I do think it would be helpful for the OP @mxns clarify what he means by wanting to do academic medicine as there are different ways to be in academic medicine. For example do you want to try for an 80:20 basic science research to clinical time. Do you want minimal research, but the opportunity to teach students and residents, or do you want to do like clinical research and practice?
 
Feel free to disagree, but please let go of the match list fallacy. There are numerous posts on here by residents on up as to why using match lists as a gauge is misguided. They are meaningless unless you know where people wanted to go. If people go where they want, they had a successful match, even if its not to MGH.

Heck, most premeds and early med students haven't the slightest clue what the top programs are for each specialty. Quite a few seem to think its the same as the med school rankings. The well respected programs for EM s going to be a very different list than for PM&R or ObGyn.

I don't think you'll put yourself at a disadvantage going there.

I do think it would be helpful for the OP @mxns clarify what he means by wanting to do academic medicine as there are different ways to be in academic medicine. For example do you want to try for an 80:20 basic science research to clinical time. Do you want minimal research, but the opportunity to teach students and residents, or do you want to do like clinical research and practice?

It's not a "fallacy" - it's a piece of information that is certainly flawed and incomplete, but it is still evidence that is better than other metrics we have (more precisely, the lack thereof). I would be extremely skeptical if someone tried to make the argument that nobody at a given school wanted to match to a top residency; and if that were the case, it would beg the question of institutional/peer culture selecting against an academic career, which would be another completely plausible reason why that school would not be as good as some others for pursuing an academic career.

You are 100% correct in that match lists should not be used as an end all be all and I'm glad you pointed it out. My argument is only an opinion and could be wrong. Your assertion, however, is rather unfounded - something that unfortunately occurs much too often around here.
 
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It's not a "fallacy" - it's a piece of information that is certainly flawed and incomplete, but it is still evidence that is better than other metrics we have (more precisely, the lack thereof). I would be extremely skeptical if someone tried to make the argument that nobody at a given school wanted to match to a top residency; and if that were the case, it would beg the question of institutional/peer culture selecting against an academic career, which would be another completely plausible reason why that school would not be as good as some others for pursuing an academic career.

You are 100% correct in that match lists should not be used as an end all be all and I'm glad you pointed it out. My argument is only an opinion and could be wrong. Your assertion, however, is rather unfounded - something that unfortunately occurs much too often around here.

Wha? No. Stop it.
 
It's not a "fallacy" - it's a piece of information that is certainly flawed and incomplete, but it is still evidence that is better than other metrics we have (more precisely, the lack thereof). I would be extremely skeptical if someone tried to make the argument that nobody at a given school wanted to match to a top residency; and if that were the case, it would beg the question of institutional/peer culture selecting against an academic career, which would be another completely plausible reason why that school would not be as good as some others for pursuing an academic career.

You are 100% correct in that match lists should not be used as an end all be all and I'm glad you pointed it out. My argument is only an opinion and could be wrong. Your assertion, however, is rather unfounded - something that unfortunately occurs much too often around here.


I'm not sure what assertion you're referring to. I said match lists aren't helpful because you don't know were people wanted to go and that most premeds don't know which programs are actually highly regarded for the various specialties. Those aren't unfounded points at all.

I did not try to make any argument about what it means when schools don't have any students match at top programs (which is not the case for Mayo). You made that leap on your own. That scenario could definitely make the case for a school having more of a primary care type focus or something than an academic research type focus.

Speaking specifically of Mayo, while it is not top in NIH funding and not affiliated with a big university, it is still inaccurate to say it's not academic. It's academic with a clinical/translational/ population level research focus and it is strong in those areas. There is strong teaching and there are more lectures, grand rounds, other educational opps, etc available on any given day than you could could ever hope to attend. There a lots of people all over the institution engaged in research that are readily accessible by students who want in on projects. A large number of students and residents pursue dual degrees geared towards those with academic interests as well.

So I'm trying to say that there are plenty of people at Mayo who match to big name programs if they want to, a lot of people who attend Mayo want to stay there for residency, and even practice. (Mayo is has some strong residency programs and good fellowship placement in some very competitive fields).

Again I really don't think anyone limits themselves going there, which was the big question for the OP.





(and it's not even my top choice school, lol. 😛)
 
Sorry guys, but it's pretty clear you're both quite biased. Anyways, best of luck.
 
Sorry guys, but it's pretty clear you're both quite biased. Anyways, best of luck.

No need to apologize, but your recent position regarding bias is remarkably flimsy for someone who I assume to be intelligent. It perhaps points more towards your maturity, or the comment was an anomaly, but either way, please accept this insight from a somewhat older applicant and scientist whose job it is to be objective at least everyday.

Substantiating one's opinion with facts does not demonstrate bias; it's a hallmark of an informed opinion, which this thread (and everything else) benefits from. Further, my decision to attend is de facto evidence of my opinion regarding the overall quality of Mayo's medical training program and opportunities that arise from it (because that's most important to me) relative to my other options (which included other great schools) and also strongly suggests that I have thoughtfully considered what MMS has to offer, which again is central to the discussion at hand.

If you remain unconvinced of my lack of bias, then consider that according to your line of thinking, one not matriculating at MMS could be considered biased as well, just in the opposite direction. Now, how can we ever have a productive discussion regarding the quality of MMS when those who are attending and those who not are unable to participate?

Best of luck to you too.
 
No need to apologize, but your recent position regarding bias is remarkably flimsy for someone who I assume to be intelligent. It perhaps points more towards your maturity, or the comment was an anomaly, but either way, please accept this insight from a somewhat older applicant and scientist whose job it is to be objective at least everyday.

Substantiating one's opinion with facts does not demonstrate bias; it's a hallmark of an informed opinion, which this thread (and everything else) benefits from. Further, my decision to attend is de facto evidence of my opinion regarding the overall quality of Mayo's medical training program and opportunities that arise from it (because that's most important to me) relative to my other options (which included other great schools) and also strongly suggests that I have thoughtfully considered what MMS has to offer, which again is central to the discussion at hand.

If you remain unconvinced of my lack of bias, then consider that according to your line of thinking, one not matriculating at MMS could be considered biased as well, just in the opposite direction. Now, how can we ever have a productive discussion regarding the quality of MMS when those who are attending and those who not are unable to participate?

Best of luck to you too.

This is not as universal as you may think, lol.
#falsifieddata #conclusionsofomission #ommitteddata #confidenceintervals
 
This is not as universal as you may think, lol.
#falsifieddata #conclusionsofomission #ommitteddata #confidenceintervals

False. It is our job to be objective. But, I like your spirit.

#five-sigma #mean +/-2.575 x S.E.
 
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