SDN Pre-Vet WW 10th Anniversary Game Thread

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Regarding MJ, I'm not entirely opposed to a yeet there but bringing religion into the oath thing was just... a weird move for someone to make if they're actually rubbing their hands together plotting behind the scenes. I'm not going to just accept everything he said, no questions asked, but he seemed to be strongly alluding to being neutral. Although I'm very interested in knowing how he apparently knew about the number of factions allegedly involved.
 
samac said:
I’m more apt to leave neutrals alone for the time being and hunt the wolves.
I dunno, felt kinda sincere yesterday. I’m willing to go back there if game continues though.
Click to expand...

But what if he’s not neutral? I think parts of it felt sincere and that he included some true facts, but MJ is just too sneaky of a player. I’m strongly betting he fudged some things he said, and I need a lot more clarification from him before I’m willing to even consider voting elsewhere today.
 
Crayola227 said:
Oh, really, a scum game with scum and Cray is one of the most experienced at, and surprisingly the thread is more interested in Cray the scumhunter rather than confirmed scum?

Why am I not surprised?

Sorry MJ but gonna have to

##### vote MJ ####

At leasg until I catch up on thread and see what's going on.
Click to expand...
I mean you thought MJ was doing really well before, no? Was the 3P reveal the tipping point?
 
Cyndia said:
It also occurred to me - is the reason she’s refusing to admit she is a mason because she’s also a sketch mason and can’t per the rules of the game? Like how fluff couldn’t reveal?
Click to expand...
Maybe. But I thought her weird post denying being a mason came days after everyone already knew she was one
 
Barkley13 said:
Maybe. But I thought her weird post denying being a mason came days after everyone already knew she was one
Click to expand...
It did.
I’m not sure if she was trying to deny it vs “Ahaha why would you think that you got TMI” without realized the rest of the world picked up on it with fluff’s flip?
 
Barkley13 said:
Maybe. But I thought her weird post denying being a mason came days after everyone already knew she was one
Click to expand...

I guess I just don’t remember anyone outright asking her or her directly talking about it before then, so maybe she didn’t feel the need to respond to it yet? But I’d have to go back and look. I completely agree she is being weird though and I think she’s a good convert choice, but putting that in the back of my head to worry about in another day or two.
 
supershorty said:
Why do you want to lean Cray village?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't be surprised if Shorty wanted me out of the game given I'm literally one of the few players that will EVER question her Aff, and wake up guys, she had her own wincon.

This is what I'm trying to tell you about "neutrals" with their own wincon. They are NOT just like the ones in Bioshock that can win with either side. We don't know if Shorty's wincon was even inclusive still.

When you are village, you may not decide to get another suspected villager yeeted because they're making noise about you, because theoretically both your lives count towards your wincon.

But in this instance, I could just have represented to Shorty a danger to her wincon. Ergo, I would need to go, and why would she have to care that I'm village? Because she's playing village-sided? No.

Even if she decided to play village sided, that doesn't mean she wouldn't be willing to get yeeted off a villager that might stand in her way to winning.

Not if that villager might stand in the way of that wincon.

Now if she had her own wincon and decided it didn't matter as much as being nice to village, that would actually be a truly crappy way to play. People should be working to their wincon, because mods put these roles and these wincons in for a reason, it affects game balance, and it makes a multiball game less interesting if everyone decides they are just gonna say eff it and not work to the wincon. Which is infuriating for other people trying to work towards theirs, including scum hunting villagers.

All this to say, I would expect Shorty to be working to her wincon, and any anti-scum villagers be damned.

I could be wrong. But I will not be trusting any scum in the game until I have mod-provided info that they are inclusive.
 
potentialsheltervet said:
It has only just now struck me the reason Cubs couldn't convert shorty is she was neutral. Perhaps whatever faction Cubs is converting to can't convert anything other than villagers. Is that a mechanic that's been seen previously? It would be quite beneficial.
Click to expand...
So @cubsrule4e who else have you been hitting up that’s turned you down? Or who else has accepted your offer? Sharing is caring 😊
 
Crayola227 said:
I wouldn't be surprised if Shorty wanted me out of the game given I'm literally one of the few players that will EVER question her Aff, and wake up guys, she had her own wincon.

This is what I'm trying to tell you about "neutrals" with their own wincon. They are NOT just like the ones in Bioshock that can win with either side. We don't know if Shorty's wincon was even inclusive still.

When you are village, you may not decide to get another suspected villager yeeted because they're making noise about you, because theoretically both your lives count towards your wincon.

But in this instance, I could just have represented to Shorty a danger to her wincon. Ergo, I would need to go, and why would she have to care that I'm village? Because she's playing village-sided? No.

Even if she decided to play village sided, that doesn't mean she wouldn't be willing to get yeeted off a villager that might stand in her way to winning.

Not if that villager might stand in the way of that wincon.

Now if she had her own wincon and decided it didn't matter as much as being nice to village, that would actually be a truly crappy way to play. People should be working to their wincon, because mods put these roles and these wincons in for a reason, it affects game balance, and it makes a multiball game less interesting if everyone decides they are just gonna say eff it and not work to the wincon. Which is infuriating for other people trying to work towards theirs, including scum hunting villagers.

All this to say, I would expect Shorty to be working to her wincon, and any anti-scum villagers be damned.

I could be wrong. But I will not be trusting any scum in the game until I have mod-provided info that they are inclusive.
Click to expand...
It's not like shorty was leading a crusade against you. Anyway, she didn't know your affiliation so how would she know if you're village?
Speculating on shorty's wincon is not a productive pathway currently imo. It could be basically anything.
 
Crayola227 said:
I wouldn't be surprised if Shorty wanted me out of the game given I'm literally one of the few players that will EVER question her Aff, and wake up guys, she had her own wincon.

This is what I'm trying to tell you about "neutrals" with their own wincon. They are NOT just like the ones in Bioshock that can win with either side. We don't know if Shorty's wincon was even inclusive still.

When you are village, you may not decide to get another suspected villager yeeted because they're making noise about you, because theoretically both your lives count towards your wincon.

But in this instance, I could just have represented to Shorty a danger to her wincon. Ergo, I would need to go, and why would she have to care that I'm village? Because she's playing village-sided? No.

Even if she decided to play village sided, that doesn't mean she wouldn't be willing to get yeeted off a villager that might stand in her way to winning.

Not if that villager might stand in the way of that wincon.

Now if she had her own wincon and decided it didn't matter as much as being nice to village, that would actually be a truly crappy way to play. People should be working to their wincon, because mods put these roles and these wincons in for a reason, it affects game balance, and it makes a multiball game less interesting if everyone decides they are just gonna say eff it and not work to the wincon. Which is infuriating for other people trying to work towards theirs, including scum hunting villagers.

All this to say, I would expect Shorty to be working to her wincon, and any anti-scum villagers be damned.

I could be wrong. But I will not be trusting any scum in the game until I have mod-provided info that they are inclusive.
Click to expand...
SHE WAS NEUTRAL. THAT IS YOUR MOD CONFIRMED INFORMATION ITS INCLUSIVE.
WHILE HER WINCON ISNT JUST A SURVIVOR HER WINNING WOULD NOT MAKE VILLAGE LOSE. THE MODS WILL NOT DEFINE NEUTRAL IN THAT WAY.

you’re talking about being infuriated her playing village sided in the same breath.
What’s it matter at this point? She’s dead. We can move on.
This is entirely like Bioshock.
And I think you’re wolfing for it.
 
Aprilthearab said:
Wait, I'm not following. Last I checked, we weren't worried about sporty because of the early paws vote

So are you thinking she's 3p? Or do you think she bussed?
Click to expand...
*****
The paws vote was an absolute pile-on. Unless she has a hard rule like AM or Zenge, it's not really bussing, just careful gameplay. She may have intended to move off and then realized that there was no chance of it being successful and staying on.

Or they could be different kinds of scum, we've established that this is multi-ball.

I'm just saying that multiple people have noticed that she is acting weird, and the last time that happened she was a wolf.

*****
 
Truenamer said:
*****
The paws vote was an absolute pile-on. Unless she has a hard rule like AM or Zenge, it's not really bussing, just careful gameplay. She may have intended to move off and then realized that there was no chance of it being successful and staying on.

Or they could be different kinds of scum, we've established that this is multi-ball.

I'm just saying that multiple people have noticed that she is acting weird, and the last time that happened she was a wolf.

*****
Click to expand...
She’ll bus, but I don’t think she likes bussing. Her place on the yeet before the alley reveal gave her village cred imo
 
IvyMoose said:
For similar reason for MJ: they are both claiming old game playing style, which i guess plants them neutral. But since we're talking about cray, imo, seems to be pushing the search for anyone 3p or wolf. its a weak lean, but still a lean. haven't seen a recent POE just by skimming iso, though...
@Crayola227 who are you reading as what and why (e.g. strong village and 3p/wolf leads)
Click to expand...
MJ sounds like he claimed scum? But inclusive? So there we go.

I had samac as village but if she wants to keep sucking the D that shorty is so village and ignore the simple logic we have no idea if her wincon is even inclusive, starting to get my paranoia going back there about her. Haven't abandoned the read yet though.

I have Ivy as pretty village. I get everything's weird with her posts and no one has figured out what she's saying, but it doesn't seem like intent to decieve. Sounds like people made a lot of assumptions and now they're pissed she's contradicting them, but I never recall her saying anything for everyone to assume what they are assuming, and seems pretty shytty that she would come on and say what she has and now people making noise to yeet her over it. Doesn't make sense as scum or convert play, honestly. But these days I guess if someone challenges the thread consensus created by samac and shorty, even when one of them flips scum with unknown wincon, they get yeeted. My one question is why Ivy didn't say something sooner, but maybe it got lost in all the pages and she didn't see it or get a chance to correct people until now. I was more paranoid Ivy was a convert before she started drawing this kind of attention to herself. Less so now. However, it is a little WIFOM but that's some 3D chess and ballsy noob convert play if so, so I think less likely.

Cyndia I had as scum, but actually the way she's pumping the brakes right now, feeling that less. Not ready to take her out of the POE until I catch up and see more to be sure.

Barks I have in the POE, again, need to catch up but feel comfortable with that read right now.

Alley has felt very village to me. Dolph too.

April is village side of neutral.

Zenge I am reevaluating from a possible scum read, need to follow up a q I asked earlier about interactions someone said cleared him.

Capri I had forgot was playing and that doesn't bode well. Will have to see Ace in action, otherwise possible scum.

The longer I don't see Sunny playing, the higher she goes in my scum reads. I could see scum hiding there, I think it's time I put her in the POE. The scum read I hope will get her butt to thread and she'll act more obviously scummy or defend on the slim chance I'm wrong.

Sporty feels village to me. I could only see her as a 3P if she isn't village, but I don't get that vibe either.

Just shooting from my hip, stream of consciousness here. Probably forgot loads of people but I'll need to catch up and look at the roster.

Oh, yeah, PSV. Likely a tunnel or scum.
 
samac said:
SHE WAS NEUTRAL. THAT IS YOUR MOD CONFIRMED INFORMATION ITS INCLUSIVE.
WHILE HER WINCON ISNT JUST A SURVIVOR HER WINNING WOULD NOT MAKE VILLAGE LOSE. THE MODS WILL NOT DEFINE NEUTRAL IN THAT WAY.

you’re talking about being infuriated her playing village sided in the same breath.
What’s it matter at this point? She’s dead. We can move on.
This is entirely like Bioshock.
And I think you’re wolfing for it.
Click to expand...
**************
I’m deaf, not blind!!!

**************
 
samac said:
SHE WAS NEUTRAL. THAT IS YOUR MOD CONFIRMED INFORMATION ITS INCLUSIVE.
WHILE HER WINCON ISNT JUST A SURVIVOR HER WINNING WOULD NOT MAKE VILLAGE LOSE. THE MODS WILL NOT DEFINE NEUTRAL IN THAT WAY.

you’re talking about being infuriated her playing village sided in the same breath.
What’s it matter at this point? She’s dead. We can move on.
This is entirely like Bioshock.
And I think you’re wolfing for it.
Click to expand...
How do you know the mods won't? Did they tell you? Did you ask on the thread where everyone can see?

That wasn’t at all what I was saying. I'm not going to play with you anymore, samac. You never listen to anyone that tries to challenge your assumptions.

There was a game where Stagg had a win condition that was specifically to get me yeeted. That's all. So a "neutral" like that (and by WW convention could be called neutral) could play village sided in every way you could detect, in order not to be caught by villagers or wolves as 3P, except they would cross village when it came to that wincon. So such a player still can't be trusted.

I distinctly remember a discussion with WZ and AM in a dead chat after a game where we discussed that neutral 3P does NOT definitionally mean inclusive or exclusive, it tells you nothing about the wincon or winning with either side. Which made some sense to me, but also didn't make any sense at all to me. Neutral technically only means isn't wolf and isn't village. It varies what 3P is called. It varies what the wincon is.
WZ was part of the discussion. We discussed using "true neutral" (which is why "true" is added). To avoid confusion because neutral doe NOT mean "wins with either side" by definition. I share this, because Dubz is a kind of mod that likes to put design elements that will challenge lazy thinking and lazy assumptions about the game and what things mean, she plays on that.

I'm officially done playing WW with you people. It feels very disrespectful to be shouted at just for talking about widely accepted notions of game theory and terminology, and just trying to urge you not to make assumptions. I never get thanked for it, not even in games like HZD or the genny bus game when it might be the only way to avoid a loss.

I see that this game has become whatever shorty and samac and AM say it is, and that just isn't fun for me any more.

At least my last game got to be with my favorite old timer MJ.

In fact, on that note,

#### unvote MJ ####

I just don't have the heart to play anymore and I'm not going to quit with my vote on the one player I miss playing with most. I don't really care about this game any more.

Let's see what happens to a player that doesn't vote a second time in the game.

It's not worth spending less time with my infant to be bullied by players that won't listen to others and cry about a stupid ****ing game.

Everyone enjoy your covids.

Edited for rule #1
 
Last edited:
Neutral in my book does always mean the player can win with whomever as long as the specific wincon is met. It does not mean the wincon is innocuous. It just means they won't win alone.


Hope that helps.
 
Crayola227 said:
How do you know the mods won't? Did they tell you? Did you ask on the thread where everyone can see?

That wasn’t at all what I was saying. I'm not going to play with you anymore, samac. You never listen to anyone that tries to challenge your assumptions.

There was a game where Stagg had a win condition that was specifically to get me yeeted. That's all. So a "neutral" like that (and by WW convention could be called neutral) could play village sided in every way you could detect, in order not to be caught by villagers or wolves as 3P, except they would cross village when it came to that wincon. So such a player still can't be trusted.

I distinctly remember a discussion with WZ and AM in a dead chat after a game where we discussed that neutral 3P does NOT definitionally mean inclusive or exclusive, it tells you nothing about the wincon or winning with either side. Which made some sense to me, but also didn't make any sense at all to me. Neutral technically only means isn't wolf and isn't village. It varies what 3P is called. It varies what the wincon is.
WZ was part of the discussion. We discussed using "true neutral" (which is why "true" is added). To avoid confusion because neutral doe NOT mean "wins with either side" by definition. I share this, because Dubz is a kind of mod that likes to put design elements that will challenge lazy thinking and lazy assumptions about the game and what things mean, she plays on that.

I'm officially done playing WW with you people. It feels very disrespectful to be shouted at just for talking about widely accepted notions of game theory and terminology, and just trying to urge you not to make assumptions. I never get thanked for it, not even in games like HZD or the genny bus game when it might be the only way to avoid a loss.

I see that this game has become whatever shorty and samac and AM say it is, and that just isn't fun for me any more.

At least my last game got to be with my favorite old timer MJ.

In fact, on that note,

#### unvote MJ ####

I just don't have the heart to play anymore and I'm not going to quit with my vote on the one player I miss playing with most. I don't really care about this game any more.

Let's see what happens to a player that doesn't vote a second time in the game.

It's not worth spending less time with my infant to be bullied by an arrogant player and cry about a stupid ****ing game.

Enjoy your covid.
Click to expand...
Cray, I’m yelling because this is the same circle we went in in bioshock. And leads nowhere. The discussion on a neutral dead person who was playing in a village way isn’t helpful to the village wincon.

I’m not trying to be an dingus and I know how it feels to be bullied in a game and that’s not at all what I’m trying to do here.
WildZoo said:
Neutral in my book does always mean the player can win with whomever as long as the specific wincon is met. It does not mean the wincon is innocuous. It just means they won't win alone.


Hope that helps.
Click to expand...
There’s mod confirmation that the wincon is inclusive, but not necessarily innocuous. Given it’s inclusive I don’t see a reason to distrust what shorty did, especially when she lead the vote on Paws.
 
And I will remind everyone of rule 1. Some statements are teetering close. I recommend taking a break from the thread if you feel yourself becoming overly heated.


WildZoo said:
​
1. Remember this is a game and is meant to be fun. We will not tolerate personal attacks against other players. Think before you post. Things can get heated, but keep it to accusations and rebuttals about this game.
Click to expand...
 
@Crayola227 Full stop, I'm sorry you feel like you're being bullied. That's not my intention. I'm just trying to play a game here and it isn't at all personal.
If you want/need to quit WW because it isn't fun for you anymore, then absolutely do so. It's a game, not an obligation, and it should be fun. If it isn't, then peace out. You're right; your family is more important than anything WW-related, so if you feel like you're losing time with your baby to do something that isn't even fun, then I totally support you stepping away.
But I do want to make it clear that has never been my intention and if I'm contributing to making the game feel hostile, then I apologize.
 
potentialsheltervet said:
@Crayola227 Full stop, I'm sorry you feel like you're being bullied. That's not my intention. I'm just trying to play a game here and it isn't at all personal.
If you want/need to quit WW because it isn't fun for you anymore, then absolutely do so. It's a game, not an obligation, and it should be fun. If it isn't, then peace out. You're right; your family is more important than anything WW-related, so if you feel like you're losing time with your baby to do something that isn't even fun, then I totally support you stepping away.
But I do want to make it clear that has never been my intention and if I'm contributing to making the game feel hostile, then I apologize.
Click to expand...
I 100% agree with this.
I’m never trying to be personal when I’m playing and don’t want anything I do to come off as a personal attack on anybody. I apologize if it felt that way.
 
WildZoo said:
Dead is @Barkley13 (and the voice in her head @Doggo Labs), who were Will's Pup Pack, a neutral player who could distribute a dog to a player each night, attaching a permanent modifier to said player's role. They could win with any faction as long as they met their win condition.
Click to expand...
@potentialsheltervet i see you hmming me lol
 
potentialsheltervet said:
@cubsrule4e Are you just posting in stars because you feel like it now? We know you aren't actually a stump.
If that's like a post restriction, then that's funny.
Click to expand...

****************
All I know is that I have to post in stars and can’t vote. Do with that what you will.

****************
 
samac said:
SHE WAS NEUTRAL. THAT IS YOUR MOD CONFIRMED INFORMATION ITS INCLUSIVE.
WHILE HER WINCON ISNT JUST A SURVIVOR HER WINNING WOULD NOT MAKE VILLAGE LOSE. THE MODS WILL NOT DEFINE NEUTRAL IN THAT WAY.

you’re talking about being infuriated her playing village sided in the same breath.
What’s it matter at this point? She’s dead. We can move on.
This is entirely like Bioshock.
And I think you’re wolfing for it.
Click to expand...

Feeling an angeries!Village!Samac in this.
 
SportPonies said:
6 non-village (3 wolves, SK, neutral shorty, MJ??) would be 20%. I agree that’s a low proportion of wolves but for balance purposes, a convert is a much “stronger” wolf, and an alpha (or yeet avoidance) counts in practicality as 2 cycles.

There certainly could be an additional scum out there, but I’m not discounting the possibility of a low percentage considering what we think we know about the game design.
Click to expand...
No, you shouldn’t count 3p numbers in wolves for ratio - it should be evaluating the number of wolves vs village for the ratio, because 3p can hurt wolves, too. Ofc you have to take into account the number and type of 3p you have. A neutral without killing abilities I would just ignore in the ratio. For SK/other individual antivillage scum you still shouldn’t count as wolves since that’s unfair to wolves, but I’d account for them by wanting a wolf:village ratio on the lower side.
 
Viscernable said:
No, you shouldn’t count 3p numbers in wolves for ratio - it should be evaluating the number of wolves vs village for the ratio, because 3p can hurt wolves, too. Ofc you have to take into account the number and type of 3p you have. A neutral without killing abilities I would just ignore in the ratio. For SK/other individual antivillage scum you still shouldn’t count as wolves since that’s unfair to wolves, but I’d account for them by wanting a wolf:village ratio on the lower side.
Click to expand...
The numbers tend to come out to “non-village:village” not necessarily wolf:village from my understanding
 
AceHydro said:
I don’t, but I do know an angeries!wolf!samac throwing daggers at my head, as well as others, and this is a very different feel
Click to expand...
I was just trying to get you misyeeted
I don’t know that I was angry lol

But imma do this
Yeet ivy
 
Viscernable said:
No, you shouldn’t count 3p numbers in wolves for ratio - it should be evaluating the number of wolves vs village for the ratio, because 3p can hurt wolves, too. Ofc you have to take into account the number and type of 3p you have. A neutral without killing abilities I would just ignore in the ratio. For SK/other individual antivillage scum you still shouldn’t count as wolves since that’s unfair to wolves, but I’d account for them by wanting a wolf:village ratio on the lower side.
Click to expand...
Generally 3Ps are counted, yes. Because village numbers are what impact the end parity. That being said, I have never run a game with more than two 3Ps but I don’t think my proposed number work up is impossible here.
 
Day 6: What’s In a Cat's Hat Tally

MJ (2) - Cyndia, Sporty
Barks (1) - Ivy
Cray (5) - ?, Doc-S, Barks, Zenge, violet
cubs (2) - cubs, alley
Cyndia (1) - PSV
Ivy (1) - samac

11/19

leading: @Crayola227
missing: less than half

Vote closes at 10pm EDT/9pm CDT/8pm MDT/7pm Fantasyland, TOMORROW, 6/1/22 (~1,825 MINUTES)

dr-seuss-cat-in-the-hat.gif

D6 Silent Auction ~ closes at 10am EDT 6/1/22 (~18.25 hours)
 
samac said:
Ya know who I haven’t thought about a lot?
Sunny.
How’s people feeling about her?
Click to expand...
Slight village tone read but might need to be resolved if other flips don't go as planned and the game goes too long without any stronger evidence for her
 
I am, once again, many pages behind and exhausted from my 3rd spay/neuter clinic in the past five days, so can someone sum up the MJ thing? I glanced at a few posts when I woke up this morning and saw something about how people are sure he's not village and I haven't seen whatever posts concluded that
 
Aprilthearab said:
I am, once again, many pages behind and exhausted from my 3rd spay/neuter clinic in the past five days, so can someone sum up the MJ thing? I glanced at a few posts when I woke up this morning and saw something about how people are sure he's not village and I haven't seen whatever posts concluded that
Click to expand...
He claimed 3P and said he’s not harmful to village but I’m riding my 3Ps should die train also because I don’t trust him*

*as a WW player. I trust him very much otherwise
 
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