The WWatering Hole Bar Grand Opening - Game Thread.

[LetItSnow]

You would think!


Mmmhm. Nice for woofs to have another night kill in the meantime though

Except that I'm kinda expecting Dubz to cancel night.

With STL's comment about her having a trumping type of ability that can't be blocked, I sorta jumped to the conclusion it was a night cancel.

I guess there are plenty of other possibilities. And I probably missed a more obvious one?

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[LetItSnow]

Spoiler: Dead is

4. @rabbott1971 - Tanqueray Gin - Chaos who could create an item every odd night, and avoid one night kill. His goal was to successfully drive the lynch of one villager, one wolf, and then get himself lynched. This was not met.

Huh. Interesting 'win' condition.

It warms my heart to have both neutral and chaos presumably out of the game.

 

[Ceke2002]

@WildZoo Okay I just went back and read that exchange with you, cyndia and STL. STL outed cyndia's ability, not yours, that was just hinted at - I mean it's not like STL said "WZ has xyz ability, she should use it tonight". So your reaction seems a little extreme to me, and especially if your ability is night cancel (as @LetItSnow surmised) then wouldn't that be more of a village ability considering cancelling night usually would protect a villager from being killed?

 

[LetItSnow]

Okay I wasn't up in time to vote on the Genny lynch, but taking out neutral and chaos is still pretty good for the village. I didn't actually know that wolves have the sort of information that allows them to know not just villager affilliation, but neutral and chaos as well.

This is utter nonsense.

If the wolves knew nothing else about ... um ... whoever we just lynched, they'd know the player was villager OR chaos (i.e. !wolf). Either one is a successful lynch for the wolves, especially because there are a fairly high number of players here who will try to lean village when they play chaos. Bottom line is that a lynch of a non-wolf is a win for the wolves. Sure, a villager is mathematically slightly better for them, but at the end of the day, lynching "not a wolf" is their goal. Period. They definitely aren't sitting around saying "hey, we need to make sure chaos doesn't get lynched!"

 

[LetItSnow]

I thought I'd done good for the village, now everyone's raining on my parade.

Oh, I'm thrilled we lynched chaos. For starters, it means we didn't lynch a villager. But also - I hate chaos/neutral.

But as far as giving you villager cred like you've been desperately trying to insist it gives you?

Not a chance.

 

[SkiOtter]

OT for a sec, this is our homemade Absinthe fountain at work, also shows the louche effect with Absinthe. The top of the fountain separates from the bottom as well so it can be stored in the fridge to help keep the water at a chilled temperature.

The video got a bit squashed in ratio unfortunately.

no fun music. 3/10.

 

[LetItSnow]

Sorry guys, just got off a phone call from S. Korea. I had planned on lynching rabbott, was actually about to send that message when my phone rang.

My other thought, to be clear, was maybe STL, depending on what was said next in that convo. Now I am just curious what will come of the STL/WZ drama.

Ceke still has bits that make me wonder if this is first wolf play, but she seems to be moving back toward her more typical play and logic now, so I don't know where I will go with that thought process.

I'm back to being suspicious of LoTF, and for the same reason that I'm getting suspicious of allieh.

Both of them are doing the same thing: coming in late in the lynch (or just plain missing it) and finding an already-posted reason to vote for something that's relatively innocuous. Neither really leading with a vote, I think. Neither really putting a stake in the ground.

I'll have to go back and check, but that's my impression. But their play both smacks of waiting around to see which way the wind is blowing and then rolling with it.

 

[WildZoo]

@WildZoo Okay I just went back and read that exchange with you, cyndia and STL. STL outed cyndia's ability, not yours, that was just hinted at - I mean it's not like STL said "WZ has xyz ability, she should use it tonight". So your reaction seems a little extreme to me, and especially if your ability is night cancel (as @LetItSnow surmised) then wouldn't that be more of a village ability considering cancelling night usually would protect a villager from being killed?

I'm not going to talk about my ability on thread anymore. My reaction was perfectly in line with how I felt, I think STL handled this extremely poorly. I was already annoyed with the fact that I was pushed to essentially reveal to him in the first place because of whatever inconsistencies with cyndia, turns out I had good reason for that since not even a day later he's essentially outing me on thread. Perhaps to you it wouldn't matter seeing as you broadcasted your ability, but I play with my role close to the chest for as long as possible, and I don't appreciate that being taken out of my hands for no good reason, and I especially don't like being told "Well you'd better use your ability when I say so". Because, once again, **** that.

 

[LetItSnow]

Okay, now that I know wolves have access to info like who is neutral and who is chaos,

I'm confused. How do you know this?

 

[Ceke2002]

Was going to quote Crayola but realized everyone is tagged in her post, so am not quoting just in case that spams everyone.

Ok, just want to say that I get the paranoia thing to a degree, but personally tend to play it up a little bit for reasons that dubz called out (and for lulz). If this post is not an exaggeration, this is a little much. You have no one who you feel is acting villa? Really? Not trying to say this is woofy in origin or anything, just...woah.

The post from Crayola that you didn't quote was saying that there were no feels on anyone being a Vanillager? Is that correct? Just want to make sure I'm reading that the right way.

 

[Ceke2002]

I'm confused. How do you know this?

Fern made a post to try and clear up my confusion about wolves and chaos and neutral players, and she said that wolves know who the wolves are, and I made a mistake and assumed that meant they not only knew who villagers were but also who chaos and neutral players were.

 

[LetItSnow]

Because I'm not going to use it at what I believe is an inopportune time just to sayisfy one person

I'm operating off the assumption that it's a night cancel. If so, why not use it now? When is an 'opportune' time? End game? That relies on you getting there, which is a gamble, whereas you can 100% stop a wolf kill if you use it now.

If it's not a night cancel, then I'm just talking out my ass.

It's really weird and bizarre to be openly talking about someone's ability on thread like this. But since the genie is sorta sticking out of the bottle....

 

[LetItSnow]

Er, so that would mean my running with the apparent joke by Rabbitoh regarding STL's hidden message, which everyone rightly pointed out later on may have just been a giant coincidence, may not have just been me stretching to find sketch with people? I mean if that is a legit posting restriction that has been used before?

Time to lay off the absinthe, Ceke.

 

[LetItSnow]

Fern made a post to try and clear up my confusion about wolves and chaos and neutral players, and she said that wolves know who the wolves are, and I made a mistake and assumed that meant they not only knew who villagers were but also who chaos and neutral players were.

This post is playing way too dumb. I'm probably sticking with my Ceke vote for tomorrow.

I think pretty much everyone here knows that in virtually every game for the last few years the wolves have a group PM, so yes, they obviously know who each other are. That leaves everyone else as "not wolf." It doesn't mean they know who is village, chaos, or neutral.

And everyone here knows that. You're trying too hard.

 

[LetItSnow]

contingent vote ceke

But with a few caveats. I could vote LoTF or allieh as an exploratory vote. And I think there's (obviously) smoke in the Cyndia/WZ/STL arena that really desperately needs to be cleared up somehow. I'd probably throw a vote that direction, but I'm so confused about it that I'm not sure where to put it. Tentatively I kinda lean on throwing it on WZ because if her ability would really clear her, then as a villager she should be using it just to clean up the mess so we can move on. The fact that she's sitting on it, knowing it's creating a mess, pushes her wolf-side in my view.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

His thought process was apparently
1. He said things weren't adding up with me, and then he was "attacked"
2. I should have used my ability already
3. Clearly it made more sense to out me on thread than to, idk, maybe have a conversation and discuss why I was holding onto it

I'm still pissed off in case that wasn't clear. And I'm not going to use my ability tonight just because he says I should. Because **** that.

I actually got all that, just not why he thinks he can lord over you and tell you when to use your ability. That would be a good question with any player, but... STL has played with you before. I would think that he would know better than to pull this and think you will just say "yes sir, how high?"

It also sounds like he thinks he could just call you out as wolf and we would all vote that way without asking for details, and again, I know he has played with us before, so why would this be a thing?

 

[DVMDream]

There were many things I wanted to comment on, but honestly, I am tired and grouchy. I will try to hit on some top things that pinged my wolfdar, but overall, not going to have a super thorough analysis right now. Sorry, not sorry.

 

[Ceke2002]

no fun music. 3/10.

Geez you guys are hard to please

 

[WildZoo]

I'm operating off the assumption that it's a night cancel. If so, why not use it now? When is an 'opportune' time? End game? That relies on you getting there, which is a gamble, whereas you can 100% stop a wolf kill if you use it now.

If it's not a night cancel, then I'm just talking out my ass.

It's really weird and bizarre to be openly talking about someone's ability on thread like this. But since the genie is sorta sticking out of the bottle....

It's more complicated than STL thinks it is because I'm me so I obviously didn't tell him everything. I know what I'm doing. I'm really not trying to handwave the whole discussion but unless when tomorrow comes around people are hell bent on lynching me, I'm not interested in laying all my cards on the table just yet.

 

[DVMDream]

And I feel comfortable talking about the whole cyndia and Dubz situation now. Dubz has an ability which she really should be using tonight, but is not the way that most roles in the game work (you will immediately know what it is once used). Cyndia is a redirector who used it twice on Dubz, which I thought was a villager use of it if she was a villager (due to early suspicion on her), but provides little negative if done like that as a wolf (and has benefit of looking like a villager did it). Mod flair, or so I am currently presuming, made the two messages cyndia got back look different, such that one of them looked like it may have kind of redirected Dubz, which would not have made sense with her claimed ability. Cyndia has discontinued redirecting in the meantime, although I feel she should possibly redirect a person each night to them self, to try and get a wolf to kill themselves.

I know I am going to be too absent the rest of this week to be super spy, so all of my info is out in the open.

If I were Cyndia or DubZ and you were sitting next to me, I would strangle you. Or at least give you severe stink eye. What are you thinking?

 

[DVMDream]

Why am I always in the "no opinion" pile, I'm missing out on the fun.

Because of posts like this. You have very short, few sentences posts that don't say much or say very minimal... can't get a read on you either way.

 

[DVMDream]

Damn straight.

Although as much as it pleases me to be called machiavellian, let's face it, that's really STL's claim to fame.

I think it fits you fairly well.

 

[Ceke2002]

Time to lay off the absinthe, Ceke.

Don't have any right now, still waiting for our order to arrive.

This post is playing way too dumb. I'm probably sticking with my Ceke vote for tomorrow.

I think pretty much everyone here knows that in virtually every game for the last few years the wolves have a group PM, so yes, they obviously know who each other are. That leaves everyone else as "not wolf." It doesn't mean they know who is village, chaos, or neutral.

And everyone here knows that. You're trying too hard.

No, actually *I* didn't know that. That's not me playing dumb, that was an honest not knowing of how the wolf pack thing works in terms of knowing affiliation beyond just them wolves us villagers kind of a deal.

 

[WildZoo]

I actually got all that, just not why he thinks he can lord over you and tell you when to use your ability. That would be a good question with any player, but... STL has played with you before. I would think that he would know better than to pull this and think you will just say "yes sir, how high?"

It also sounds like he thinks he could just call you out as wolf and we would all vote that way without asking for details, and again, I know he has played with us before, so why would this be a thing?

Hell if I know

 

[DVMDream]

I actually got all that, just not why he thinks he can lord over you and tell you when to use your ability. That would be a good question with any player, but... STL has played with you before. I would think that he would know better than to pull this and think you will just say "yes sir, how high?"

It also sounds like he thinks he could just call you out as wolf and we would all vote that way without asking for details, and again, I know he has played with us before, so why would this be a thing?

It is STL... he thinks he can control people. Very typical.

Not sure what to think of the whole STL/WZ/Cyndia conundrum.

 

[DVMDream]

@WildZoo Okay I just went back and read that exchange with you, cyndia and STL. STL outed cyndia's ability, not yours, that was just hinted at - I mean it's not like STL said "WZ has xyz ability, she should use it tonight". So your reaction seems a little extreme to me, and especially if your ability is night cancel (as @LetItSnow surmised) then wouldn't that be more of a village ability considering cancelling night usually would protect a villager from being killed?

Meh. I think STL just about outed WZ's ability. There really isn't much it can be. Kind of straightforward.

 

[Ceke2002]

I'm operating off the assumption that it's a night cancel. If so, why not use it now? When is an 'opportune' time? End game? That relies on you getting there, which is a gamble, whereas you can 100% stop a wolf kill if you use it now.

If it's not a night cancel, then I'm just talking out my ass.

It's really weird and bizarre to be openly talking about someone's ability on thread like this. But since the genie is sorta sticking out of the bottle....

Which is almost the exact same thing I said as well, but apparently I'm 'playing dumb' because I didn't know one particular element of how the whole wolf pack thing works.

 

[DVMDream]

I don't know whether to laugh at Ceke's posts or just shake my head. Trying to decide if he really is this nooby or is just trying to hold it up as a noob wolf.

 

[Ceke2002]

Meh. I think STL just about outed WZ's ability. There really isn't much it can be. Kind of straightforward.

So if it is a night cancel ability then, and the cat's already out of the bag, then I still don't understand not using it if its for the village's benefit? if WZ has the opportunity to cancel night and save a Villager, then why wait, or at least why not tell us why she's waiting. I get the whole 'crack a few eggs' approach to lynching, but if this is WZ's ability that has been outed it's not cracking eggs it's saving a villager.

 

[Ceke2002]

I don't know whether to laugh at Ceke's posts or just shake my head. Trying to decide if he really is this nooby or is just trying to hold it up as a noob wolf.

Um, it's 'she'.

And not trying to hold up as a noob wolf, not at all, I only very recently started playing WW and tend to get either wolf killed or lynched early enough that I don't always follow the rest of the game and therefore did not know that the wolf pack does not have access to info besides just villager affiliation.

 

[DVMDream]

So if it is a night cancel ability then, and the cat's already out of the bag, then I still don't understand not using it if its for the village's benefit? if WZ has the opportunity to cancel night and save a Villager, then why wait, or at least why not tell us why she's waiting. I get the whole 'crack a few eggs' approach to lynching, but if this is WZ's ability that has been outed it's not cracking eggs it's saving a villager.

Because some of us don't like being told what we can and can't do and when and where and why and how to use it. I'd probably be just as stubborn as WZ about it, especially if STL pulled that BS with him. Not only would I not use it, but I'd be sure he never treated me like that ever again. He isn't the boss of people, but thinks he is.

 

[LetItSnow]

It's more complicated than STL thinks it is because I'm me so I obviously didn't tell him everything. I know what I'm doing. I'm really not trying to handwave the whole discussion but unless when tomorrow comes around people are hell bent on lynching me, I'm not interested in laying all my cards on the table just yet.

I'm not saying I think STL's move was brilliant, but you're asking for a whole lotta leeway here..... and I think it might be better to suck up your pride and roll with STL now that he's pulled a ****ty move. It's just going to be distracting in the meantime.

 

[DVMDream]

Um, it's 'she'.

WW isn't WW if there isn't a mistaken gender. Usually it is @LetItSnow who makes this error. But he is too busy being machiavellian.

 

[LetItSnow]

Because of posts like this. You have very short, few sentences posts that don't say much or say very minimal... can't get a read on you either way.

Good reason to lynch.

 

[LetItSnow]

I think it fits you fairly well.

Even with the whole STL/WZ/Cyndia thing going on? C'mon!

 

[Ceke2002]

Because some of us don't like being told what we can and can't do and when and where and why and how to use it. I'd probably be just as stubborn as WZ about it, especially if STL pulled that BS with him. Not only would I not use it, but I'd be sure he never treated me like that ever again. He isn't the boss of people, but thinks he is.

Then if STL was already aware of how WZ would respond, I'm assuming, what would be his reasoning in doing this in the first place? Trying to boss/control people, if STL is a villager this game, sounds pretty counter village to me.

 

[DVMDream]

Even with the whole STL/WZ/Cyndia thing going on? C'mon!

I think you need to change your signature to

"Machiavellian Psychotic Muppet Cotton Ball"

 

[SkiOtter]

Then if STL was already aware of how WZ would respond, I'm assuming, what would be his reasoning in doing this in the first place? Trying to boss/control people, if STL is a villager this game, sounds pretty counter village to me.

STL is STL. Who knows why he does the things he does.

 

[DVMDream]

Perfect!!!

 

[WildZoo]

I'm not saying I think STL's move was brilliant, but you're asking for a whole lotta leeway here..... and I think it might be better to suck up your pride and roll with STL now that he's pulled a ****ty move. It's just going to be distracting in the meantime.

How much leeway am I really asking for? If he hadn't pulled that **** there would be no distraction in the first place. All I'm asking is to be allowed to use my role in the best way I can.

The discrepancy between me and Cyndia only involved STL because he shoved himself in the middle of it, and she was moved before I knew there was anything going on, or else we could have compared results directly and figured out what was going on. STL himself had said it was probably mod flair, and yet he still saw fit to try to force my hand because with his limited knowledge of my role he thought I wasn't using it the way I should. I'm not interested in playing along with that kind of style - outting people so they have to play the way he wants. Not even a little interested.

Like I said, there's more to it than he thinks, and I will use it when I damn well please.

 

[LetItSnow]

How much leeway am I really asking for? If he hadn't pulled that **** there would be no distraction in the first place. All I'm asking is to be allowed to use my role in the best way I can.

The discrepancy between me and Cyndia only involved STL because he shoved himself in the middle of it, and she was moved before I knew there was anything going on, or else we could have compared results directly and figured out what was going on. STL himself had said it was probably mod flair, and yet he still saw fit to try to force my hand because with his limited knowledge of my role he thought I wasn't using it the way I should. I'm not interested in playing along with that kind of style - outting people so they have to play the way he wants. Not even a little interested.

Like I said, there's more to it than he thinks, and I will use it when I damn well please.

You're asking for a lot. STL's argument essentially implies some level of suspicion about you, that can be cleared by using your ability. You're refusing to use it.

(And believe me, you know my stubborn streak, so you know I can understand wanting to refuse.)

It just puts out a LOT of smoke and makes it seem like someone in that mix of you/Cyndia/STL is a wolf. For the village sake, it might be nice to resolve the question sooner rather than later. I'm saying it might be a good time to set aside your pride and stubbornness.

There's a reason I don't really give info to STL anymore; it's because I've been burned by the situation you're in. Once he gets information, he has no respect for the source and he doesn't work with anyone.

 

[DVMDream]

And this people, this is why I don't generally PM in WW.... way too much chance of BS like this happening. If you don't PM, then you don't have to worry about someone throwing out all the information you have given them even if they don't have permission to reveal it.

 

[LetItSnow]

And this people, this is why I don't generally PM in WW.... way too much chance of BS like this happening. If you don't PM, then you don't have to worry about someone throwing out all the information you have given them even if they don't have permission to reveal it.

The other reason I don't PM (much - I'm not as bad as you) is that if it's one-on-one it relies on me alone to weigh what the other person is saying and decide if I trust them. If it's out in the thread, then everyone else gets to weigh it and decide if it's sketch or not.

 

[DVMDream]

The other reason I don't PM (much - I'm not as bad as you) is that if it's one-on-one it relies on me alone to weigh what the other person is saying and decide if I trust them. If it's out in the thread, then everyone else gets to weigh it and decide if it's sketch or not.

Yup, agreed. If I can't be sure that the one person I am revealing info to is on the up and up... then I might as well take the risk to the whole thread instead of just that one person. And vice-versa. If someone is telling me something and I can't make up my mind if I think it is fishy or not, it isn't just me deciding if it is revealed just on thread.

I mean, this isn't to say I won't PM... I will, I just prefer to not unless completely necessary.

 

[Crayola227]

Huh. Interesting 'win' condition.

It warms my heart to have both neutral and chaos presumably out of the game.

Except for Ceke & I. We bring a little chaos into every game we're still part of.

Like the new sig line Machiavelli. Got my eye on you.

 

[Crayola227]

I'm back to being suspicious of LoTF, and for the same reason that I'm getting suspicious of allieh.

Both of them are doing the same thing: coming in late in the lynch (or just plain missing it) and finding an already-posted reason to vote for something that's relatively innocuous. Neither really leading with a vote, I think. Neither really putting a stake in the ground.

I'll have to go back and check, but that's my impression. But their play both smacks of waiting around to see which way the wind is blowing and then rolling with it.

I've done it as a lazy villager before. This is why we need villagers to work just a tad harder, because villagers that work hard make it harder for wolves to look like lazy villagers.

 

[Crayola227]

I'm not going to talk about my ability on thread anymore. My reaction was perfectly in line with how I felt, I think STL handled this extremely poorly. I was already annoyed with the fact that I was pushed to essentially reveal to him in the first place because of whatever inconsistencies with cyndia, turns out I had good reason for that since not even a day later he's essentially outing me on thread. Perhaps to you it wouldn't matter seeing as you broadcasted your ability, but I play with my role close to the chest for as long as possible, and I don't appreciate that being taken out of my hands for no good reason, and I especially don't like being told "Well you'd better use your ability when I say so". Because, once again, **** that.

I expect STL to die shortly as he predicted. Or you. If this was a village move, it's sort of lame because the wolves will either kill one or both of you for the expected reasons or leave you alive as a distraction.

Rather than force you to use your abililty, which, frankly night cancel could TOTALLY be a wolf ability for so many strategic reasons, we could just lynch STL if he doesn't end up dead, then lynch you if he flips village. Unless this was all part of a wolf plot to get STL AND you lynched. I don't really find it likely that both of you are being misled this way, but if you're both village you should be able to identify who might be yanking your chains.

 

[SummerTheLynx]

I'm operating off the assumption that it's a night cancel. If so, why not use it now? When is an 'opportune' time? End game? That relies on you getting there, which is a gamble, whereas you can 100% stop a wolf kill if you use it now.

If it's not a night cancel, then I'm just talking out my ass.

It's really weird and bizarre to be openly talking about someone's ability on thread like this. But since the genie is sorta sticking out of the bottle....

The other thing that would be consistent with her role is lynch cancellation based on background info. Aka, i really see no reason not to use the night cancel unless she is perpetually lying about it. I pointed out to her that she can die before its used, but she has taken her toys and gone home. And the opportune moment is a bull**** argument IMO, seems like a deflection.

 

[Ceke2002]

Contingency Lynch WildZoo

The whole STL/WZ/Cyndia thing is just too sketchy. If WZ is a villager and her ability is night cancellation, then I see no reason not to use that ability, now that she's essentially been outed on thread, because it would mean saving a villager from a wolf kill. Yeah sure it sucks to have that control of choice taken away from you, and I'm not saying it wasn't a d!ck move by STL, but if the cat's already out of the bag, and all that. If the ability is lynch cancellation then 'waiting for an opportune moment' could read as 'waiting until a wolf's head is on the chopping block'.

Also the waffling off of Genny and onto Snowy at the last minute is pinging some feels. And the handwaving 'whatever inconsistencies with Cyndia', who has been top of several people's wolf suspect list for a while.

 

[PippyPony]

The way you said it was weird, especially with ~30 min left in the day.

Pippy + 2 pumpkin beers --> weirdly worded posts.

But tbh I'm still a bit confused about why you're confused haha. Every time wolves can avoid a lynch, but carry out a night kill, they gain one up on village. Idk, maybe that's just the way I tally stuff in my own head.

And I maintain that I didn't like that pile-on -- hydrated or not hydrated, I get squiggly when I see people jumping rapidly on a lynch where the person is not defending because it just looks too easy. Hydrated Pip felt like people were getting steered.