Toledo vs OUHCOM (DO)

[foster033]

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So, I'm not looking for this to be an MD vs. DO thread....I realize that will play a factor here but I hope the DO bashing can be kept to a minimum. And I apologize for the long post.

I've been accepted to both University of Toledo (MD) and Ohio University (DO). I'm fairly heavily leaning towards OU but wanted to get some other opinions on the matter.

I'm a non-trad, graduated in 2006, worked in a research lab for 6 years (lab manager, 1st author paper). My significant other, of almost 9 years, also applied this year and has also been accepted at OU, but did not interview at Toledo. We are both on the waitlist at Cincinnati(2nd tier tho) and he is also on a waitlist at NEOMED.

Both of us getting in at OU is a contributing factor. We have lived together for the last 7 years and everything we have pretty much is jointly owned (furniture, kitchen stuff, etc.) including our dog and 3 cats. We've already signed a lease for an apartment at OU and are all prepared to move there. We are currently planning on staying somewhere in Ohio for residency since we're thinking about kids then and I have family here that could help.

Here are other reasons why I'm leaning towards OU:

I like their PCC curriculum (basically PBL)
they have solid 3rd/4th year clinical sites through CORE where you get to stay in the same site (I like Athens but it's nice not to have to be there for 4 years, I'll like it even better if I get to move back to Columbus - prob a long shot though).
I really like the feel of the school...students/staff/faculty seem happy and friendly. I felt very comfortable there.
OU is one of the very top DO schools (in my opinion) and has a strong reputation in the state of Ohio which I feel like will just get stronger as they open 2 new campuses in the next two years in Columbus and Cleveland (partnered with Cleveland clinic).

To be honest I don't know that much about Toledo. My interview day there was okay, nothing terrible but nothing great either. I've heard terrible things about the city, though, in general as well as the area immediately surrounding the school. I've also heard 3/4 years aren't the best there and they often struggle to find sites for everyone(directly from one of the deans), switch sites at the last minute, and are generally just poor quality....but I don't know how much of a problem this really is.

Basically I'm not too concerned about the whole MD vs DO thing, but I would like to get the best quality education. Am I wrong in thinking that OU holds a better reputation in Ohio than Toledo? Has anyone been in a similar situation, what did you do? Any comments or advice are welcome.

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

I don't know if OU has a better reputation, but I've never really heard an ill word spoken about OU. I think that's aided because they send students all over the state with CORE, which increases their exposure.

Basically, IMHO if you'll be just as happy as a DO as MD, then go where you'll be happiest during school. If being away from your SO and support system is going to drag you down in med school, don't do it. Follow your gut.

 

[WaylonS]

It's difficult to not discuss the MD vs DO issue

Do you have any idea what specialty you might want to go into? If it's something competitive, many ACGME programs will be closed to you if you go to OU. With the impending merger of AOA and ACGME residencies, no one knows that will happen. If AOA residencies have to meet ACGME requirements, will AOA residencies be closed? It's possible. Will there still be a bias against DO's and COMLEX? Probably

If you are interested in something that isn't competitive, and as long as you are itching to go back to lab, it sounds like OU would be a great fit for you. While there are more opportunities at/coming from an allo school, at the end of the day, in situations like this, it seems pretty cut-and-dry where you should go

Good luck

 

[SilverCat]

While I agree that many ACGME residencies will be closed to you, you can select any specialty you want as a DO through an AOA residency. Although admittedly it is much more difficult to get into things like Ortho, Optho, Derm, and Urology, it is not impossible.

From your post, I would assume you prefer OU over Toledo. Since you feel more comfortable there, and would be able to remain close to your SO, I think OU would be a good option for you.

 

[foster033]

It's difficult to not discuss the MD vs DO issue

Do you have any idea what specialty you might want to go into? If it's something competitive, many ACGME programs will be closed to you if you go to OU. With the impending merger of AOA and ACGME residencies, no one knows that will happen. If AOA residencies have to meet ACGME requirements, will AOA residencies be closed? It's possible. Will there still be a bias against DO's and COMLEX? Probably

If you are interested in something that isn't competitive, and as long as you are itching to go back to lab, it sounds like OU would be a great fit for you. While there are more opportunities at/coming from an allo school, at the end of the day, in situations like this, it seems pretty cut-and-dry where you should go

Good luck

Right now I'm interested in EM, neonatology (but not really peds on it's own), maybe neurology...basically, who knows, nothing I'm really set on. I know that some people say many ACGME programs are closed to DO grads, but how true is this really? I'm aware that there are some top programs that just do not accepts DOs, but for the average program is this really the case? If you take the USMLE and do well* shouldn't you be able to match assuming you aren't stupid about it. Aren't these top selective programs, for all intents and purposes, basically closed to low-tier MD grads as well? I'm sure you can find exceptions to this but the chances seem so low that I'm not sure if this is really a reason to pick Toledo. Perhaps I'm mistaken though. I'm looking for the undistorted truth, so if I'm way off base here and you can back up why I'm wrong please let me know.


*I'm aware this is easier said than done but I've done exceptionally well on tests/standardized tests my entire life so I'm not going to start stressing about it now. Also, I don't think the school I attended will have that much influence over this score.

 

[FranzLO]

If you want to keep all of your options open, then I think that Toledo is best, although I understand it being a difficult choice. I have some close friends at Toledo and they really love it, and based on things like residency lists, it is clear that any residency program is available to you if you choose UT. Reputation wise, it really should not matter. I am sure that you are well trained and motivated you will do well.

I know so many people wondering similar things, and have gone through the same process, and ultimately going MD is something most do not regret. I understand if you have heard bad things about the Toledo area, but that is silly. You will hopefully enjoy yourself with many like minded people and maybe you will appreciate the area.

Also, if you end up thinking that Toledo is best for you and your career aspirations, I am sure that you will still be able to stay with your SO if you both really care for each other. Also, I am pretty sure your SO can rotate in Toledo. I have and will continue to go through a similar situation, so best of luck!

 

[foster033]

I don't know if OU has a better reputation, but I've never really heard an ill word spoken about OU. I think that's aided because they send students all over the state with CORE, which increases their exposure.

Basically, IMHO if you'll be just as happy as a DO as MD, then go where you'll be happiest during school. If being away from your SO and support system is going to drag you down in med school, don't do it. Follow your gut.

Yeah, I'm a little concerned about being alone in Toledo for 4 years, but it's probably something I could deal with. I'm really worried about the COA #s though. They're much lower than all the other schools I interviewed at and about $6,000 lower than OU even though tuition is basically the same. Aren't you from Toledo? Is it extremely cheap to live there? I'm almost 30 so I'm not all that interested in a roommate or living like a 22 yr-old again. I'm worried I won't have the money to live in a safe, modern area. What are the positives about the school and/or city? Like I said I just really don't know a lot about it? And if I'm mistaken and you're not from the area just ignore all that.

I had pretty much given up on them but got a very late interview and never really got around to researching it. I just haven't really felt that excited about it and I'm not sure if that's because I'm just so exhausted from this whole process, because I already have an acceptance, or if it's something about the school.

 

[UTDude]

I am really just a lurker, but as a UT student, I felt sort of compelled to post. This really is a great school. It is funny how you mentioned the interview process, because I have noticed this with several schools like Wright, UC, and other ones in Ohio but I do not really think this reflects the school. I had very similar questions that you had when I decided UT, but strangely, my decision was made really easy when I received a substantial scholarship to UT.

I really do not like to comment on too many particulars, since I believe so much is preference, but as someone who is from the Toledo area, I think it is a great place to live and a great school. Do what makes you happy, and I would absolutely suggest visiting the area and checking it out. I am going on my 3rd year, and I feel very well off choosing UT over the other schools I mentioned, including OU which I was also accepted at. Personally I just think your education would be great here and some of our students have been getting pretty high profile residencies, so these are well within reach if you come here. I also have met some great friends too.!Good luck with your choice!

 

[foster033]

I am really just a lurker, but as a UT student, I felt sort of compelled to post. This really is a great school. It is funny how you mentioned the interview process, because I have noticed this with several schools like Wright, UC, and other ones in Ohio but I do not really think this reflects the school. I had very similar questions that you had when I decided UT, but strangely, my decision was made really easy when I received a substantial scholarship to UT.

I really do not like to comment on too many particulars, since I believe so much is preference, but as someone who is from the Toledo area, I think it is a great place to live and a great school. Do what makes you happy, and I would absolutely suggest visiting the area and checking it out. I am going on my 3rd year, and I feel very well off choosing UT over the other schools I mentioned, including OU which I was also accepted at. Personally I just think your education would be great here and some of our students have been getting pretty high profile residencies, so these are well within reach if you come here. I also have met some great friends too.!Good luck with your choice!

Thank you for responding, I really appreciate a current student view! I hope you (or anyone else) do not think I'm disparaging your school. I am of the opinion that there are no bad medical schools, so I don't mean to imply that about the school (or the city!). Like you say, everyone has different preferences so I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about Toledo to see if it's a good fit for me. I didn't want to base my decision off of rumors I've heard since they're often not true, so I'm happy to get your opinion on the matter. I really have never been to the area, with the exception of my interview day, so going for a visit might not be a bad idea.

 

[alpinism]

The bottom line is this:
If you go to OU, you will be closing some doors and will have less opportunities overall. However, it's certainly possible to get into a good residency in a great location from OU.

The degree to which it impacts your career depends on the specialty and your grades/board scores.
Because of this, it's nearly impossible to predict how it will affect you personally.

Everyone is exceptionally good at standardized tests in med school. Also, just because you did great on the MCAT, doesn't mean you'll get a 250 on step 1. Most likely, you'll end up in the middle of your class with an average board score.

If being with your SO is more important to you than getting into a top residency, go to OU. Just be aware that there is a good chance of ending up at a smaller community hospital or in a less desirable location for residency.

 

[foster033]

The bottom line is this:
If you go to OU, you will be closing some doors and will have less opportunities overall. However, it's certainly possible to get into a good residency in a great location from OU.

The degree to which it impacts your career depends on the specialty and your grades/board scores.
Because of this, it's nearly impossible to predict how it will affect you personally.

...

If being with your SO is more important to you than getting into a top residency, go to OU. Just be aware that there is a good chance of ending up at a smaller community hospital or in a less desirable location for residency.

Thanks for your response.....I feel like it's thrown out there all the time about how many doors you are closing and how many fewer opportunities you will have by going DO and I guess I just find it a little bit hard to believe and a little bit abstract. It seems like many of the doors you are closing aren't very large to begin with. Meaning, even if you went to an MD school, your shot of getting these top residencies is still pretty small just bc of how competitive they are. Of DOs participating in the MD match over 70% match and it's going up every year. While that's obviously less than MD grads it's way above FMG. Looking at OU's match list from last year, their grads don't seem to be that limited, at least in the state. 17 matched in Columbus (4 of them at OSU), 4 in Cincinnati (2 at UC), 8 in Cleveland (1 at Cleveland Clinic and 2 at Case). and these aren't all FM or IM there's radiology, anesthesiology, ophthalmology...haven't found a detailed match list for Toledo only a summary of #s per specialty but not location, if anyone can point me to that I'd appreciate it.
It seems to me, with the exception of those programs that take no DO students, your scores/grades/extracurriculars are what really matters. Like I said though, I was just looking for some other opinions on this bc I don't think it's as cut and dry as people make it out to be, there's a lot more nuance to it than what is generally discussed. I could be completely off base, it's pretty hard to analyze a system you're not a part of yet and has so many contributing factors. I'm not really looking for a justification of whatever decision I make, because ultimately I have to be happy with what I decide. Rather I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the subject and if the common myths are really true. I really appreciate all the responses so far...thanks!

Everyone is exceptionally good at standardized tests in med school. Also, just because you did great on the MCAT, doesn't mean you'll get a 250 on step 1. Most likely, you'll end up in the middle of your class with an average board score.

I think you misunderstood me a little here. I simply meant this is 2 years away and there are so many other things to do before this that there is no reason for me to stress or freak out about it now. I will also disagree that everyone in medical school is exceptionally good at standardized tests. If that were the case people wouldn't be studying for months on end and spending thousands on MCAT prep classes. This is really not germane to the topic at hand though, and I basically just mentioned it wondering how different are the options for MD vs. DO assuming high step 1 scores. Is the difference in MD/DO matching due to a lower average scores on the part of DO students? or is it really just that they come from a DO school? Are different DO schools viewed differently or lumped all together. Would MD and DO students with the same step 1 score really have such vastly different options? Maybe these are questions that can't be answered but I thought it was worth investigating before making a decision.

 

[altruistss]

Thanks for your response.....I feel like it's thrown out there all the time about how many doors you are closing and how many fewer opportunities you will have by going DO and I guess I just find it a little bit hard to believe and a little bit abstract. It seems like many of the doors you are closing aren't very large to begin with. Meaning, even if you went to an MD school, your shot of getting these top residencies is still pretty small just bc of how competitive they are. Of DOs participating in the MD match over 70% match and it's going up every year. While that's obviously less than MD grads it's way above FMG. Looking at OU's match list from last year, their grads don't seem to be that limited, at least in the state. 17 matched in Columbus (4 of them at OSU), 4 in Cincinnati (2 at UC), 8 in Cleveland (1 at Cleveland Clinic and 2 at Case). and these aren't all FM or IM there's radiology, anesthesiology, ophthalmology...haven't found a detailed match list for Toledo only a summary of #s per specialty but not location, if anyone can point me to that I'd appreciate it.
It seems to me, with the exception of those programs that take no DO students, your scores/grades/extracurriculars are what really matters. Like I said though, I was just looking for some other opinions on this bc I don't think it's as cut and dry as people make it out to be, there's a lot more nuance to it than what is generally discussed. I could be completely off base, it's pretty hard to analyze a system you're not a part of yet and has so many contributing factors. I'm not really looking for a justification of whatever decision I make, because ultimately I have to be happy with what I decide. Rather I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the subject and if the common myths are really true. I really appreciate all the responses so far...thanks!




I think you misunderstood me a little here. I simply meant this is 2 years away and there are so many other things to do before this that there is no reason for me to stress or freak out about it now. I will also disagree that everyone in medical school is exceptionally good at standardized tests. If that were the case people wouldn't be studying for months on end and spending thousands on MCAT prep classes. This is really not germane to the topic at hand though, and I basically just mentioned it wondering how different are the options for MD vs. DO assuming high step 1 scores. Is the difference in MD/DO matching due to a lower average scores on the part of DO students? or is it really just that they come from a DO school? Are different DO schools viewed differently or lumped all together. Would MD and DO students with the same step 1 score really have such vastly different options? Maybe these are questions that can't be answered but I thought it was worth investigating before making a decision.

Finally I found somebody in the whole SDN forum who is probably in the same boat as I am. I am a nontraditional student who had to leave his biomedical research career in the middle because my advisor moved to West Coat and I could not because of my wife who lives in Columbus. I interviewed both the places and I honestly was happier with OU because they were organized and methodical in their approach. At Toledo, it was a mess to a certain extent. I was assigned to be interviewed by a physician and when I reached his office, it turns out he was out of town. I came back to the Admissions and they instantaneously assigned me to another professor although the interview experience was good. I liked UTMC. They have an impressive faculty and most of them are engaged with the Block Health Science (the basic science building) conducting translational research. I am waitlisted at Toledo but if I do get accepted my only reason to go there would be if I decide to be a physician who also wants to be a research investigator at the same time (and I'm not sure I want to do that at this point). I was told by my mentors that a career in Academic Medicine is relatively easier with an MD than a DO degree because of the way NIH study section looks at them. Apparently it is easy for an MD to get his/her grant accepted as opposed to a DO but again the jury is still out.
As far as clinical training is concerned, I am thinking there is no difference. However, I do like OU for the PCC curriculum and the CORE set up which gives an opportunity to get to know the residency program beforehand and do a good job during the clinical rotations. I don't think I would compare Doctors Hospital/Nationwide Children's/OSUwith St Vincent's or Mercy's. Again it depends upon what specialty you are looking at. Finally, since my wife is on Columbus, the driving distance is going to be relatively less.
As far as residency match is concerned, it is absolute nonsense that if you are a DO you have fewer chances. During my interview Dr Imam Mohammad, the dean even mentioned that the UT match rate wasn't 100% , meaning MD vs DO is not the key factor. I think as an individual, one can make or break himself/herself. My brother is an IMG and he matched into surgery. Now if that is possible anything is possible.

 

[foster033]

Finally I found somebody in the whole SDN forum who is probably in the same boat as I am. I am a nontraditional student who had to leave his biomedical research career in the middle because my advisor moved to West Coat and I could not because of my wife who lives in Columbus. I interviewed both the places and I honestly was happier with OU because they were organized and methodical in their approach. At Toledo, it was a mess to a certain extent. I was assigned to be interviewed by a physician and when I reached his office, it turns out he was out of town. I came back to the Admissions and they instantaneously assigned me to another professor although the interview experience was good. I liked UTMC. They have an impressive faculty and most of them are engaged with the Block Health Science (the basic science building) conducting translational research. I am waitlisted at Toledo but if I do get accepted my only reason to go there would be if I decide to be a physician who also wants to be a research investigator at the same time (and I’m not sure I want to do that at this point). I was told by my mentors that a career in Academic Medicine is relatively easier with an MD than a DO degree because of the way NIH study section looks at them. Apparently it is easy for an MD to get his/her grant accepted as opposed to a DO but again the jury is still out.
As far as clinical training is concerned, I am thinking there is no difference. However, I do like OU for the PCC curriculum and the CORE set up which gives an opportunity to get to know the residency program beforehand and do a good job during the clinical rotations. I don’t think I would compare Doctors Hospital/Nationwide Children’s/OSUwith St Vincent’s or Mercy’s. Again it depends upon what specialty you are looking at. Finally, since my wife is on Columbus, the driving distance is going to be relatively less.
As far as residency match is concerned, it is absolute nonsense that if you are a DO you have fewer chances. During my interview Dr Imam Mohammad, the dean even mentioned that the UT match rate wasn't 100% , meaning MD vs DO is not the key factor. I think as an individual, one can make or break himself/herself. My brother is an IMG and he matched into surgery. Now if that is possible anything is possible.

Seems like we have a lot of the same thoughts, and had pretty similar experiences at these two schools. Just looked at the OU thread and turns out we interviewed on the same day so I guess we've met 🙂 Are you planning on going to OU or are you on the waitlist there?

As far as grants go, it might be harder as a DO, but I suspect it really just comes down to less interest since most DO schools are private and don't have a lot of research opportunities. Getting funded in general is HARD!!! Like crazy hard and getting worse every year. I decided a long time ago that I never wanted to have my own lab. Too much uncertainty, and I like actually doing the research, as opposed to writing grants all day. I will probably do some scale projects in the future, but I don't want other people's jobs depending on my grant writing ability..

 

[altruistss]

Seems like we have a lot of the same thoughts, and had pretty similar experiences at these two schools. Just looked at the OU thread and turns out we interviewed on the same day so I guess we've met 🙂 Are you planning on going to OU or are you on the waitlist there?

As far as grants go, it might be harder as a DO, but I suspect it really just comes down to less interest since most DO schools are private and don't have a lot of research opportunities. Getting funded in general is HARD!!! Like crazy hard and getting worse every year. I decided a long time ago that I never wanted to have my own lab. Too much uncertainty, and I like actually doing the research, as opposed to writing grants all day. I will probably do some scale projects in the future, but I don't want other people's jobs depending on my grant writing ability..

Holy mother of god. You're right. We did interview the same day and I got through the very same day. That is one good thing about OU that the results are announced the very same day or the weekend later. You're are absolutely right that it is seemingly impossible to get a grant these days with so many PhDs out there and so few resources. Some public DO schools do offer the DO -PhD program but I don't know how those physician scientists are doing. I do find Athens more welcoming that Toledo and that is why I am planning to spend the next four years there. However, I hate to see all those years of experience go waste and do have plans to continue with research . Again that is contingent upon how hectic the curriculum is. How about you? Is it Toledo or OU or any other school for you

 

[foster033]

Holy mother of god. You're right. We did interview the same day and I got through the very same day. That is one good thing about OU that the results are announced the very same day or the weekend later. You're are absolutely right that it is seemingly impossible to get a grant these days with so many PhDs out there and so few resources. Some public DO schools do offer the DO -PhD program but I don't know how those physician scientists are doing. I do find Athens more welcoming that Toledo and that is why I am planning to spend the next four years there. However, I hate to see all those years of experience go waste and do have plans to continue with research . Again that is contingent upon how hectic the curriculum is. How about you? Is it Toledo or OU or any other school for you

Still haven't made up my mind entirely, although strongly leaning towards OU. I'm going to wait a little longer and see if my SO or myself get off another waitlist because that will factor into my decision too. I like OU more than Toledo but I'm having a harder time giving up the MD than I thought I would. I honestly don't care about it much, but I'm slightly worried about ACGME couples match with two DOs.

 

[174394]

I also got into OU and Toledo this year. I decided to go to OU because I really like Athens and Toledo is cold and scary

 

[HopefullNonTrad]

So, I'm not looking for this to be an MD vs. DO thread....I realize that will play a factor here but I hope the DO bashing can be kept to a minimum. And I apologize for the long post.

I've been accepted to both University of Toledo (MD) and Ohio University (DO). I'm fairly heavily leaning towards OU but wanted to get some other opinions on the matter.

I'm a non-trad, graduated in 2006, worked in a research lab for 6 years (lab manager, 1st author paper). My significant other, of almost 9 years, also applied this year and has also been accepted at OU, but did not interview at Toledo. We are both on the waitlist at Cincinnati(2nd tier tho) and he is also on a waitlist at NEOMED.

Both of us getting in at OU is a contributing factor. We have lived together for the last 7 years and everything we have pretty much is jointly owned (furniture, kitchen stuff, etc.) including our dog and 3 cats. We've already signed a lease for an apartment at OU and are all prepared to move there. We are currently planning on staying somewhere in Ohio for residency since we're thinking about kids then and I have family here that could help.

Here are other reasons why I'm leaning towards OU:

I like their PCC curriculum (basically PBL)
they have solid 3rd/4th year clinical sites through CORE where you get to stay in the same site (I like Athens but it's nice not to have to be there for 4 years, I'll like it even better if I get to move back to Columbus - prob a long shot though).
I really like the feel of the school...students/staff/faculty seem happy and friendly. I felt very comfortable there.
OU is one of the very top DO schools (in my opinion) and has a strong reputation in the state of Ohio which I feel like will just get stronger as they open 2 new campuses in the next two years in Columbus and Cleveland (partnered with Cleveland clinic).

To be honest I don't know that much about Toledo. My interview day there was okay, nothing terrible but nothing great either. I've heard terrible things about the city, though, in general as well as the area immediately surrounding the school. I've also heard 3/4 years aren't the best there and they often struggle to find sites for everyone(directly from one of the deans), switch sites at the last minute, and are generally just poor quality....but I don't know how much of a problem this really is.

Basically I'm not too concerned about the whole MD vs DO thing, but I would like to get the best quality education. Am I wrong in thinking that OU holds a better reputation in Ohio than Toledo? Has anyone been in a similar situation, what did you do? Any comments or advice are welcome.

If I was in your situation I would go to OU. Earlier this cycle I chose a DO program over an MD program because of location, my wife's career would suffer where the MD school is located. Later on in the cycle I got into one of my top choice MD schools in a perfect location but had I not been accepted there I would have been happy to go to the DO school in the same area.

 

[plumhill]

Just want to jump in and say...have you seen OU's match list?? They've had people match at Brigham and Women's. That's not something you can say for every DO school (or even every MD school). I would NOT worry about residency placements AT ALL. They've also had a number of people match into all of the specialties you've considered, OP.