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Stony Brook vs Downstate vs UMDNJ-RWJ vs UMDNJ-NJMS
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Hey! Congrats on the acceptance to SB! Take a look at my post in our FB page and that's basically my justification for DS. I will add though that SB (and SB students can chime in) is in a much more affluent area, so the patient pools will be very different from DS. At DS, you'll see mostly indigent, uneducated patients who come in for untreated medical conditions. Also, with a larger immigration population, you'll see some "funky" things that you've never heard of because they're not common. Basically, I'd say you get better clinical exposure at DS. I believe that the material in pre-clinical years is fairly regulated across all medical schools, so the material won't change. The only difference will be how it is taught (relative ratio of lectures, anatomy lab things, small groups, etc.). SB definitely has a bigger and better reputation because it has an associated undergrad, but I think amongst the NYC schools for residency, Downstate does very well. We are also number two behind SB for NIH funding for research, and we are considerably smaller than they are.
It's a tough choice, but I know you'll make the right decision. Also consider the surrounding areas. You're 30 minutes away from Manhattan by train from Downstate, 20 minutes from Park Slope..and 3 hours away if in Stony Brook. Sorry I can't comment on your NJ schools, but from what I hear from my friends in class "It's Jersey" 🙂
I'm from/live in Jersey. Strike one downstate.
I just really have no idea what to do. I am leaning towards the Suny's at this point though
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Haha, sorry about the NJ comment, but that was from my friend who is from Wyckoff, NJ...so I don't know about that one (and I'm from Cali, so I have no idea) 😉
Anyway, it's going to be a tough choice for ya, since SB and DS are very similar I think in terms of their academic potential....I think it boils down to do you want to live in the city or a suburb. I know of students in my class who chose DS over SB..and I know some who chose SB over DS. I think both are happy with their decision. It's all a matter of whether you want that urban lifestyle with crazy immigrants as your patients, or a more suburban, upper middle class patient population. The latter will be more comfortable to work with, but you will be learning about different cases. It'll also shape how you practice medicine too.
I'd go back on Accepted Students day to SB..and feel free to come to our day on the 4th of April. Good luck! 🙂
oh ya, if you search the forums, there are a lot of SB vs DS threads that'll say a lot of what i'm saying and more. It'll give you more insight hopefully!
thanks for the input. That's what I'm looking for from people.
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stony is about the same as downstate in terms of stats. downstate however lets you do crazier stuff so thats plus 1 for downstate in my opinion. in the end though, the match lists for those 2 are about the same...
i have heard of negative things of NJ medical schools (including from ppl in NJ). I'm from NY and i didn't even bother applying to NJ schools (applied to NY, + Penn schools instead) b/c of negative things ppl kept saying. If you browse their threads from a couple years ago you'll see the problems...
i have heard of negative things of NJ medical schools (including from ppl in NJ). I'm from NY and i didn't even bother applying to NJ schools (applied to NY, + Penn schools instead) b/c of negative things ppl kept saying. If you browse their threads from a couple years ago you'll see the problems...
What kind of crazier stuff?
Also if you could tell me what the classes are like for the first two years and about your 3rd and 4th years as well. Thanks man.
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ive heard of financial issues, administration problems etc. my impression was that the students weren't the happiest either. their stats are also not as good. i figured if im going to spend 200+k on 4 years of education, im not going to risk it so i didn't apply.
im current at downstate. i have friends at stony. the first 2 years are similar. the stuff you learn is pretty much the same. the order of classes are different. grading is similar too.
i haven't experieced 3rd/4 year yet, but from what i heard downstate lets you experience more. this might not seem much right now but i have given like 20 flu shots already in first year of med school, my friends from other schools tell me that they dont even let them stick needles into people in their first year. i definitely feel like downstate is more chill about the stuffs you do.
first year at DS is normal. 2nd year is abnormal. Curriculum change for incoming students 2 yrs from now. but current and next yr schedule is still lecture style. 9 blocks (Gene to cell, musculoskeleta, head neck, cardio, respiratory, GI pelvis, urinary, repro endocrine, neuro), and 1 Essential medicine class (basically ethics, healthcare etc). embedded in each of the 9 blocks are anatomy and histo labs in addition to lectures, case based learning, etc.
im current at downstate. i have friends at stony. the first 2 years are similar. the stuff you learn is pretty much the same. the order of classes are different. grading is similar too.
i haven't experieced 3rd/4 year yet, but from what i heard downstate lets you experience more. this might not seem much right now but i have given like 20 flu shots already in first year of med school, my friends from other schools tell me that they dont even let them stick needles into people in their first year. i definitely feel like downstate is more chill about the stuffs you do.
first year at DS is normal. 2nd year is abnormal. Curriculum change for incoming students 2 yrs from now. but current and next yr schedule is still lecture style. 9 blocks (Gene to cell, musculoskeleta, head neck, cardio, respiratory, GI pelvis, urinary, repro endocrine, neuro), and 1 Essential medicine class (basically ethics, healthcare etc). embedded in each of the 9 blocks are anatomy and histo labs in addition to lectures, case based learning, etc.
What school exactly are you talking about right here?
I can't speak about RWJ, but I've been accepted at the other three schools. In my opinion, SB was a clear choice for me. I'm from Manhattan so I would probably be more comfortable in an urban setting but NJMS and DS just seemed very run down and with less impressive clinical sim centers and facilities. Stony Brook feels like a private institution and seems incredible, but at a state school price. I was also uncomfortable with the reputation of Kings County Hospital. For me, SB just had a better environment and reputation.
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Sb
reasoning?
I can understand why you may be discouraged by Downstate in comparison to Stony Brook since our campus isn't as nice and modern as HSC and Stony Brook's Medical Center, but the main thing you should be looking at is your learning experience. Research wise, Stony Brook reigns supreme... there really is no end in sight to the kind of research you could do and who you could collaborate with at the medical school and on West Campus. It's almost wild.
But Downstate hands down trumps Stony Brook in the amount of autonomy and procedural opportunities we get when we do our clinical rotations. There really is no comparison. Our graduates leave well prepared for residency because we are thrown into the fire so to speak when we do our rotations. Patients here look to us for their healthcare, whereas in some other medical schools you'll find that the patient population wont be as receptive to you unless you're an M.D. All you'll probably do is take vitals, at the most.
To quote a third year on the current 2016 class page:
"In 6 months as a third year, I've done about 30 venipunctures, 10 arterial sticks, many many IV's, helped close many surgical incisions, performed a lumbar puncture, and sutured someone's arm on my own...and now I get my own office in a primary care clinic with a ton of autonomy!"
He also cut off a leg. True story.
Anyway, we'll be happy to answer any other questions, and I will forward this thread to third year to give you some more insight.
Good luck in your choice.
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Arite big bad Vulcan's gonna make an appearance here 😛
So The guy who spoke about a third year doing all that cool stuff? Well I'm the third year. I am proud to be here at Downstate and wouldn't choose any other school over it. Here's why:
When I first started out, I interviewed at DS and got accepted, but expected not to go b/c it looked run down and was in a bad area. I won't lie...this is true. I ended up here b/c it was the only place I got into. That being said, I was so pleasantly surprised at how much I loved this school, that I had forgotten my apprehensions within a month or so.
The first year at DS is normal body, as others have alrdy told you. The second year is abnormal body. You get this everywhere...at every school...it's very shortsighted to judge a school by its lecture facilities...since youre only using those facilities for the first 2 years. Also, the human body does not change from school to school. From DS to SB to Harvard to UCLA, the gallbladder is in the same place. Any school in this country will give you a solid lecturing education during MS1/2.
I personally like the way DS has it set up in MS2, because they start really ramping up the length and difficulty of exams as you get closer to USMLE Step 1...it really helps you build stamina for that exam (think 2 MCATs back to back and 10x harder).
The real reason to pick a school is the clinical years. I've been told by multiple residents/attendings that the 2 years where you learn the most during your medical education is your MS3 year and your intern year in residency. The MS3 year is critical. It can go one of two ways:
You can work in a private hospital the whole time, where the affluent patient population will not let you touch them because youre a student. You can sit and watch the whole time...never touch a needle...never do a procedure...and sit there reading.
or
You can work in a "run down" county hospital which caters to the poor, the underserved, and the extremely ill. You can work in a hospital which is severely understaffed, and therefore the students shoulder a large amount of the work. You can spend your days doing histories and physicals...learning through experience how to set up proper treatment plans, drawing blood when theres no one else to do it, doing procedures beyond your year because they need the help, and and many points, basically BEING THE PRIMARY PROVIDER with only the necessary amount of supervision.
I always say that DS forces us to 'do more with less resources.' This is 100% a good thing. As my colleague above me has said, I have done so many procedures...and all of my friends in other schools tell me they would NEVER be allowed to do those. I am comfortable drawing blood...from vein or artery. I can place multiple IV's on multiple patients in a few minutes. I've sutured on my own. I've helped with shoulder dislocations. I currently am on Primary Care rotation where I get MY OWN OFFICE and see the patients on my own. The attending only pops his/her head in briefly to confirm my findings. You find me another school that lets you do that.
And to whoever said DS has a bad reputation? Every residency program director/attending I've spoken to this year has said they love taking DS students. Why?
Think about it....we have been so well trained due to the level of autonomy in our hospitals that we can basically function as interns in our MS4 year. I'll be honest...I've had more than one (non-DS schooled) intern this year who asked me to draw blood for them because they 'hadn't done many blood draws in medical school.'
Yes, I'm biased. This is obvious. But I see my fellow MS3 class as an incredible group of students who are willing to plunge into new procedures whenever they present themselves...we work with what we have (which sometimes isn't as much as other schools), but we become better doctors for it. I don't regret a single part of my education here. Not for a second.
...or you can go to the research school 😉
The choice is yours, and yours alone.
Good Luck
So The guy who spoke about a third year doing all that cool stuff? Well I'm the third year. I am proud to be here at Downstate and wouldn't choose any other school over it. Here's why:
When I first started out, I interviewed at DS and got accepted, but expected not to go b/c it looked run down and was in a bad area. I won't lie...this is true. I ended up here b/c it was the only place I got into. That being said, I was so pleasantly surprised at how much I loved this school, that I had forgotten my apprehensions within a month or so.
The first year at DS is normal body, as others have alrdy told you. The second year is abnormal body. You get this everywhere...at every school...it's very shortsighted to judge a school by its lecture facilities...since youre only using those facilities for the first 2 years. Also, the human body does not change from school to school. From DS to SB to Harvard to UCLA, the gallbladder is in the same place. Any school in this country will give you a solid lecturing education during MS1/2.
I personally like the way DS has it set up in MS2, because they start really ramping up the length and difficulty of exams as you get closer to USMLE Step 1...it really helps you build stamina for that exam (think 2 MCATs back to back and 10x harder).
The real reason to pick a school is the clinical years. I've been told by multiple residents/attendings that the 2 years where you learn the most during your medical education is your MS3 year and your intern year in residency. The MS3 year is critical. It can go one of two ways:
You can work in a private hospital the whole time, where the affluent patient population will not let you touch them because youre a student. You can sit and watch the whole time...never touch a needle...never do a procedure...and sit there reading.
or
You can work in a "run down" county hospital which caters to the poor, the underserved, and the extremely ill. You can work in a hospital which is severely understaffed, and therefore the students shoulder a large amount of the work. You can spend your days doing histories and physicals...learning through experience how to set up proper treatment plans, drawing blood when theres no one else to do it, doing procedures beyond your year because they need the help, and and many points, basically BEING THE PRIMARY PROVIDER with only the necessary amount of supervision.
I always say that DS forces us to 'do more with less resources.' This is 100% a good thing. As my colleague above me has said, I have done so many procedures...and all of my friends in other schools tell me they would NEVER be allowed to do those. I am comfortable drawing blood...from vein or artery. I can place multiple IV's on multiple patients in a few minutes. I've sutured on my own. I've helped with shoulder dislocations. I currently am on Primary Care rotation where I get MY OWN OFFICE and see the patients on my own. The attending only pops his/her head in briefly to confirm my findings. You find me another school that lets you do that.
And to whoever said DS has a bad reputation? Every residency program director/attending I've spoken to this year has said they love taking DS students. Why?
Think about it....we have been so well trained due to the level of autonomy in our hospitals that we can basically function as interns in our MS4 year. I'll be honest...I've had more than one (non-DS schooled) intern this year who asked me to draw blood for them because they 'hadn't done many blood draws in medical school.'
Yes, I'm biased. This is obvious. But I see my fellow MS3 class as an incredible group of students who are willing to plunge into new procedures whenever they present themselves...we work with what we have (which sometimes isn't as much as other schools), but we become better doctors for it. I don't regret a single part of my education here. Not for a second.
...or you can go to the research school 😉
The choice is yours, and yours alone.
Good Luck
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NJ school. this was when i applied and they may be rumors (i saw ppl post it on sdn lol). it's probably better now. you may want to do a search for their school on sdn
And Downstate students are super helpful. How many DS students do I see in this thread helping you out? FOUR!! Other schools put together? Zero
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I'm a 4th year at RWJ. I've had a great experience there. We perform really well on auditions and our match list is pretty tight. Not much national recognition and you'll become very accustomed to trying to explain where your school is (most of us just say 'pretty much Rutgers') although this will be changing as we merge with Rutgers. Student body is very friendly and not malignant with each other. Faculty is pretty well-connected in the northeast and loves to help out hard working students. Most people match on the east coast, so if you're trying to get to Cali after graduation you might want to check out match lists at the other schools. Living in New Brunswick can get tedious and I opted to move to Princeton after 2 years.
You should look into the split between UMDNJ and RWJ more though if they're both on your list. Basically NJMS is going to UMDNJ and RWJ is going to Rutgers. NJMS doesn't like this because it cuts into their funding and they've also had financial issues recently (which I'm sure you can dig up on SDN or with a quick google search). RWJ is happy because they keep CINJ and going to RU means more departmental and research funding, as well as better national recognition.
I know one guy at NJMS graduating this year and he said he had a good experience there.
You should look into the split between UMDNJ and RWJ more though if they're both on your list. Basically NJMS is going to UMDNJ and RWJ is going to Rutgers. NJMS doesn't like this because it cuts into their funding and they've also had financial issues recently (which I'm sure you can dig up on SDN or with a quick google search). RWJ is happy because they keep CINJ and going to RU means more departmental and research funding, as well as better national recognition.
I know one guy at NJMS graduating this year and he said he had a good experience there.
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Keep in mind that in New York there's a strong nursing union, which means residents/med students do their own blood draws, roll patients everywhere, etc. If that's your bag at 6am then you want to be there. At RWJ we have requirements to get a bunch of these, but you have to keep an eye out for these opportunities since nursing usually takes care of it. It's a trade-off. The former means you get great at minor procedures (which may or may not be of use depending on where you do residency/practice), while the latter means more time rounding, teaching, or in the OR... or sleeping.
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One concern that I have as an out-of-stater that is also accepted to Downstate is the ability to receive in-state tuition. I know the OP says that costs should be the same between the schools being considered, but I presume that this is assuming that after first year, we'll be considered in-state for tuition purposes. I have heard nothing from Downstate to contradict this, in fact at my interview the director of admissions did mention that OOSers can get IS tuition their second year. However, in the SUNY Upstate thread, applicants have stated that the admissions staff there is telling them that this policy has changed this year, and I understand that SUNY tuition policies are determined centrally. That leaves me wary of the potential that this may also happen at Downstate, and with $54k/year OOS tuition, that's something I have to consider.
So I just wonder if there are any Downstaters (you guys are really very helpful) that can comment on this potential issue?
So I just wonder if there are any Downstaters (you guys are really very helpful) that can comment on this potential issue?
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The registrar at DS said they had not heard of this yet, and the idea of needing to own property in NYC is "ridiculous", according to them.
I wasn't really concerned about this because i was told by admissions people at both schools that I would be able to receive in state tuition after a year. I will definitely be calling them though to make certain.
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Exactly-just he reason why I wouldn't be worried about Upstate rumors
I have heard about the great clinical training at NJMS (heard because I am in the same position as you trying to decide between schools) and I imagine one underlying reason that people speak highly of the opportunities at NJMS (and probably DS too) is because of the location. NJMS/DS are in totally different locations than RWJ/SB. But just because RWJ/SB are in more suburban/affluent locations doesn't mean you can't get great clinical training at either of those either. I think another factor you should look at (if cost isn't a factor) is how well you see yourself being happy at any of these schools...
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When I was choosing between schools it basically came down to money (not an issue here), location, and research opportunities. Research is kind of hard to evaluate since none of those schools is a research powerhouse. And you only have one summer to dedicate to research so im not sure how much that matters really. The location here is pretty good. You're really close to NYC so you can go to tons of bars, restaurants, clubs etc. and as mentioned before the clinical experience is likely to be a lot better although probably comparable to that at njms. You should go to second look days and see for yourself. But in the end you have to ask yourself where you'd be most comfortable the next 4 years. It's a big decision but you ultimately got to go with your gut.
Given NIH funding for research I can see your point however some have pretty advanced research centers associated with them that are pretty well known.
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If research is an area of interest for you durin the school year, you'll be able to find it at any school, including Downstate. Overall though, it is tough to do during school year though.
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Apparently theres a huge reoganizing issue with NJ Med schools due to our governor Christie (who btw was apparently nominated to be vice president?!?!) There will no longer be a UMDNJ system or such sense, only Cooper-Rowan, Rutgers-RWood, and UMNJ. Personally I'm a bit skeptical of Christies governing abilities and the whole regrouping shenanagains. I not quite up for the administrative shuffling involved. On the pro side, being sucked by Rutgers gives Rwood more resources (funding, research), but the campus seems quieter than UMNJ. The hospital of Rwood is not actually connected to the medical school. Not sure how much patient exposure youll receive.
Also from personal extrapolation, people who go to UMDNJ stay in NJ. Most doctors you find in NJ are from UMDNJ. i guess people really love NJ, contrary to the stereo types.
I myself did not apply to Downstate or SB, so i have no input on that, but i picked my med school on how "dirty" their medi students get aka how much hands on practice will they recieve since that will be a major determinant on my training.
Cheerios
Also from personal extrapolation, people who go to UMDNJ stay in NJ. Most doctors you find in NJ are from UMDNJ. i guess people really love NJ, contrary to the stereo types.
I myself did not apply to Downstate or SB, so i have no input on that, but i picked my med school on how "dirty" their medi students get aka how much hands on practice will they recieve since that will be a major determinant on my training.
Cheerios
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When I was a premed buzz-words like "problem-based learning" and "integrated clinical experience starting in m1" really appealed to me too. That being said, you get similar levels of patient exposure during your 3rd and 4th years across the board. Then you have residency to even everyone out. An extra patient exam or two during your first two years isn't going to make a difference and I can tell you that I got especially tired of standardized patient encounters every month or so at RWJ during m1-m2. Having the hospital connected would be nice so we could hop over to examine a unique finding, but they end up just bringing patients to the school anyway. There's now also a system where an m4 will take a group of underclassmen around the hospital so they can practice their skills and see neat stuff.
Your priorities will change as your med school training progresses. While 'patient exposure' might seem like a big thing now, in 4 years you'll likely be more interested in having gone to the place with better research, more well-known faculty, and a more competitive match list. Right now a lot of your goals may be "I want to be a doctor and help people, doing minor procedures makes me feel important" but come 2016 it'll probably be more like, "I want to do ophtho at brigham... is there any faculty that can hook me up?"
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Ridiculous way to pick a school. Don't go to Downstate just because of its patient population or great clinical training. You will see a lot of interesting cases here at Stony, and we do get our share of illegal immigrants and underserved patient populations too.
New rule. If you have a negative opinion of New Jersey based on word of mouth, an impression from a superficial tv show, or a brief ride through the state please refrain from answering. Not to rant, but NJ has some of the richest counties and towns in the country, the best public school system in the country (according to at least one source), miles of beautiful beaches, is home to large bio/pharma/tech companies, and has more diners then anywhere else in the US.
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I thought everyone always said schools where you have more hands-on training in M3 and M4 are reasons to choose them!
I think they meant that in the long run who really cares if you preformed a lumbar puncture as an M3 or M4.
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I think that residency directors do have preference for students who show greater clinical competence, since it makes their residency programs look better and reduces the burden of training. Just my two cents
Not disagreeing, just interpreting what I think was being said above.
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I realize that; just wanted to chime in with what I thought about what the post you quoted meant. 🙂
Good luck with your decision-lots of things to take into consideration! 🙂
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Residency programs do have a preference for students who demonstrate clinical competence. Clinical competence, however, is most measured by clinical acumen and knowledge; generally these are evidenced by grades, scores, and letters. Where you go to school plays some role (not as much as the above) but not because of more "hands-on" clinical training.
The poster above saying what we mean is "who really cares if you get more LPs and venipunctures" is spot on. By mid-3rd or 4th year, you'll probably feel the same.
Just trying to give you guys the facts for deciding. Best of luck!
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That's very true. Evaluations and marks will trump all other things considered.
I would make the argument though that one should look first at what he/she values in a school, and then look at how much he/she values something like the clinical exposure one will receive during ms3/4. If that individual is pursuing an education which will expose them to a variety of clinical cases or give them the autonomy that is not usually granted to students, choose the school that will give them such. If he/she values something else, go to the school with that something else.
I'm keeping it vague so the OP can find his own values and make the decision on his own. One of the issues that has come up is the variety of clinical exposures he would receive at downstate or stony brook. He should look at whether that is an issue for him.
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Agreed, Asyouwearatrio (wow that was hard to spell!!!). Moreover, if you are even considering something competitive ( a simple sdn will give you a clue) then you should check out each school's match list for that specialty.
THIS 🙂
Also, don't forget the Pine Barrens. People need to visit South Jersey and see how great this area is for themselves. It is like rural Pennsylvania down here. A little too fast pace for my liking, but still nice. 😀
Fair enough. Just go with your values and decide what school fits what you want the best. Good luck.
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