RANT HERE thread

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hazelmoo said:
Lol. Your tone is always so friendly and welcoming, especially considering you don't even know me!

When someone tells you something, do you assume they are being truthful until proven otherwise? Because that's how I live on a day to day basis. If I automatically assumed everyone was lying all of the time, I would be miserable. And, I trust my ability to be able to tell when people are lying or not. Sometimes I'm wrong, but I am right more often than not.
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Something that we are taught in communication classes in vet school. People have horrible memories. Clients tend to remember the first five minutes of a conversation and the last five minutes. This isn't unique to anyone in particular, we're the same when we go to our human dr. That's why it is recommended to write down questions and what the dr/vet is saying. I might not have the exact percent correct, but from research, it is shown people can only remember about 30% (may be less) of a typical conversation at a veterinary clinic.

So, it isn't necessarily that your clients are "lying" they are just believing what they recall. And it is very possible they just forgot about that weight conversation their previous vet had with them.

Heck, we got it all the time from clients who saw Dr. A the first time, was told about weight, it is in the history. Then they see Dr. B and Dr. B mentions the weight and the client goes, "oh, Dr. A never mentioned that." Yet, Dr. A did and it is in the record.
 
WildZoo said:
I think one thing to remember is that memory is a very tricky thing. The brain is kind of an dingus sometimes. So unless the client got an exact printout of everything the vet told them, they may not really remember, or the time between may have been enough to allow their brain to warp the memory a bit. It's hardly malicious in most cases but people just aren't that good at remembering stuff.

ETA: Also sometimes people just don't want to take the blame for doing something that is harming their pet, especially when they see it as showing love. Very easy to push that blame off onto someone who isn't there, especially if you don't have medical notes and all that for the pet.
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This is exactly it. And like LIS said, clients' information is often quite inaccurate. I tend to take almost all of my clients at their word when they answer my questions when I take a history, but we always verify everything and repeat the same questions over and over again because lots of people misunderstand or remember incorrectly or bend the truth for whatever personal reason they have. In my personal experience, clients' observations about how a patient has been behaving tend to be pretty useful, but their recollections about medications, treatments, and prior recommendations can be all over the map. It runs the gamut from people who have no clue what is going on ("I don't know if Fluffy got meds or whatever. My wife does that.") to people who keep a notebook detailing the time their dog got each med and who take pictures of each vomitus. It's not that there's some kind of choice between thinking your clients are all liars or thinking they're decent people at heart who wouldn't make things up. It's about verifying that information because many if not most people don't have the background knowledge or time or interest or space in their memory to remember all of the details and because most people will get at least some detail or another wrong unless they have written documentation to remind them what was said or done. Hell, sometimes I can't remember what my old vet said about my pets in appointments from last year or which cats had fecals when or exactly how many calories my mancat is supposed to get per day. It's just human nature for your mind to fill in the blanks when you forget sometimes, and it's important for us to account for all of those deficiencies in client observations and recollections.

And I think the greater point is that it's sort of a professional courtesy to give another doctor the benefit of the doubt until you have evidence that they made a mistake or overlooked something. I don't mean that people need to cover other doctors' butts if they screw up, but those other doctors are still your colleagues, and given how often clients mix things up, I don't think it's fair to automatically assume the doctor messed up. Clients can and do throw doctors under the bus, and we all know how much of a toll that can take on someone. I think it's important to have each others backs professionally (to a reasonable extent) in situations like that.
 
DVMDream said:
Something that we are taught in communication classes in vet school. People have horrible memories. Clients tend to remember the first five minutes of a conversation and the last five minutes. This isn't unique to anyone in particular, we're the same when we go to our human dr. That's why it is recommended to write down questions and what the dr/vet is saying. I might not have the exact percent correct, but from research, it is shown people can only remember about 30% (may be less) of a typical conversation at a veterinary clinic.

So, it isn't necessarily that your clients are "lying" they are just believing what they recall. And it is very possible they just forgot about that weight conversation their previous vet had with them.

Heck, we got it all the time from clients who saw Dr. A the first time, was told about weight, it is in the history. Then they see Dr. B and Dr. B mentions the weight and the client goes, "oh, Dr. A never mentioned that." Yet, Dr. A did and it is in the record.
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missdarjeeling said:
This is exactly it. And like LIS said, clients' information is often quite inaccurate. I tend to take almost all of my clients at their word when they answer my questions when I take a history, but we always verify everything and repeat the same questions over and over again because lots of people misunderstand or remember incorrectly or bend the truth for whatever personal reason they have. In my personal experience, clients' observations about how a patient has been behaving tend to be pretty useful, but their recollections about medications, treatments, and prior recommendations can be all over the map. It runs the gamut from people who have no clue what is going on ("I don't know if Fluffy got meds or whatever. My wife does that.") to people who keep a notebook detailing the time their dog got each med and who take pictures of each vomitus. It's not that there's some kind of choice between thinking your clients are all liars or thinking they're decent people at heart who wouldn't make things up. It's about verifying that information because many if not most people don't have the background knowledge or time or interest or space in their memory to remember all of the details and because most people will get at least some detail or another wrong unless they have written documentation to remind them what was said or done. Hell, sometimes I can't remember what my old vet said about my pets in appointments from last year or which cats had fecals when or exactly how many calories my mancat is supposed to get per day. It's just human nature for your mind to fill in the blanks when you forget sometimes, and it's important for us to account for all of those deficiencies in client observations and recollections.

And I think the greater point is that it's sort of a professional courtesy to give another doctor the benefit of the doubt until you have evidence that they made a mistake or overlooked something. I don't mean that people need to cover other doctors' butts if they screw up, but those other doctors are still your colleagues, and given how often clients mix things up, I don't think it's fair to automatically assume the doctor messed up. Clients can and do throw doctors under the bus, and we all know how much of a toll that can take on someone. I think it's important to have each others backs professionally (to a reasonable extent) in situations like that.
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Thanks you guys!! I will definitely need to keep this in mind from now on.
 
I've had clients tell me "the last vet said X" a dozen times... And I was the last vet so I know it wasn't the point I was trying to make!
I've also spent 30 minutes going over a problem with a client only to have them go up to the front desk to check out and tell the receptionist I said "everything was perfect"

people don't listen.

And yes, as House said, everybody lies.
 
Trilt said:
Not saying the rDVM should have extracted them, just that the dog had obvious potential pathology in his mouth and an owner who was interested in getting to the bottom of it. :shrug:
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You know what was even more awkward? I spent a good amount of time this week fishing out broken roots from a shoddy dental performed at my own hospital by another doctor a few years ago. Seriously, wtf. They were supposedly slab fractures.
 
LetItSnow said:
Sigh. Noted. Another pre-vet who is too good to listen to experience.
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Sigh. Another oldie vet who doesn't learn.
(I mean... do you not remember the last thread where you were not in agreement with this poster?)

One thing if anything I've learned over the years is that many pre-vets will believe whatever they want to believe... Exactly like many of our clients.

My client yesterday comes in with 10 different complaints about the pet. Then tells me she only has $30 to spend... (I waived her exam and even gave her free flea preventative) and declines lab work. I tell her to do a few things that won't cost anything more like bland diet and Pepcid and whatever else, while she saves up money for diagnostics. She left telling everyone that I said the pet was fine because she's taking great care of her pet. The only thing remotely close to that was "you care ABOUT your pet." As in, "You clearly care about her, so let me help you figure this out" I also said in very simple words "I am worried about x and y, we need to run this test and that test to find out"

Now that she used up a free exam with me, im sure she'll be bouncing to another vet telling them how I told her that her pet was fine.
 
Minnerbelle said:
Sigh. Another oldie vet who doesn't learn.
(I mean... do you not remember the last thread where you were not in agreement with this poster?)

One thing if anything I've learned over the years is that many pre-vets will believe whatever they want to believe... Exactly like many of our clients.
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Yeah, apparently I can't say anything right.
Silly me, a pre-vet student acting like a pre-vet on the pre-vet forum of SDN... :/

It has NOTHING to do with what I do or do not want to believe. It has to do with graduated veterinarians on here giving "advice" in a manner that is taken as offensive and rude by many pre vet students, not just me. Over and over and over again. If there is such an issue with the way that people are saying things, I don't understand why it continues. Us PRE-VETS are not the only ones that could learn a thing or two from each other. You all were pre-vets at one point too. I am not claiming that I know more than you all or the only opinion that matters is my own, but I am sick of people INVALIDATING my opinion because I am a pre-vet student. Yes, I can still learn a lot from you and I appreciate good intentioned advice. No, I do not appreciate being belittled and harshly criticized by people for a post that was made on the RANT THREAD in response to another RANT. It's like a snowball. Once someone disagrees with something you say, you take it as a challenge to invalidate and comment on everything else by said poster from then on. I don't understand. But, oh well. Apparently I don't understand a lot of things.

I am not going to argue with anyone anymore on the subject. So you can say whatever you want but I am leaving it at that.
 
hazelmoo said:
Yeah, apparently I can't say anything right.
Silly me, a pre-vet student acting like a pre-vet on the pre-vet forum of SDN... :/

It has NOTHING to do with what I do or do not want to believe. It has to do with graduated veterinarians on here giving "advice" in a manner that is taken as offensive and rude by many pre vet students, not just me.
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And you aren't the only one I've told this to but: Assume positive intent.

You seem to take offense very easily. Very easily. Then you get snappy at us for just giving advice. Always always always assume positive intent. Nobody was rude to you this time initially either until you got snappy and started telling people they are being mean for giving you advice. It is starting to be more like anyone who doesn't 100% agree with me is being mean to me.
 
hazelmoo said:
Yeah, apparently I can't say anything right.
Silly me, a pre-vet student acting like a pre-vet on the pre-vet forum of SDN... :/

It has NOTHING to do with what I do or do not want to believe. It has to do with graduated veterinarians on here giving "advice" in a manner that is taken as offensive and rude by many pre vet students, not just me. Over and over and over again. If there is such an issue with the way that people are saying things, I don't understand why it continues. Us PRE-VETS are not the only ones that could learn a thing or two from each other. You all were pre-vets at one point too. I am not claiming that I know more than you all or the only opinion that matters is my own, but I am sick of people INVALIDATING my opinion because I am a pre-vet student. Yes, I can still learn a lot from you and I appreciate good intentioned advice. No, I do not appreciate being belittled and harshly criticized by people for a post that was made on the RANT THREAD in response to another RANT. It's like a snowball. Once someone disagrees with something you say, you take it as a challenge to invalidate and comment on everything else by said poster from then on. I don't understand. But, oh well. Apparently I don't understand a lot of things.

I am not going to argue with anyone anymore on the subject. So you can say whatever you want but I am leaving it at that.
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Here is my original response to you:

LetItSnow said:
I mean this gently, but you need to reign that attitude in. It's great that you're concerned about the animal, but do not EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES believe that the rdvm said what the client reported they said. I've been on both sides of that and it is ASTONISHING how clients will hear what they want. I've had clients report back to their vet that i said exactly the opposite of what I ACTUALLY said.... Because that's just what they wanted to hear. Fortunately, I keep pretty detailed records.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the vet had warned them that their animal was overweight and they magically transformed that into "our vet said Fluffy is doing great." Not one tiny bit.

Just remember that some day you'll be the vet that a client claims said something you didn't. I promise.
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If you believe that my post "invalidates" your opinion ... or that it is "offensive and rude" .... or that it "belittles and harshly criticizes" ....

Well. I guess I just have no response to that other than to say I think you are being incredibly defensive and over-the-top and should probably take a step back and calm down. I apologize for getting you worked up. I have already noted that I will refrain from offering you advice in the future, which should alleviate your concerns. I wished you well in vet school - genuinely - in the PM thread that you started. I also asked for that conversation to stop, which you ignored and insisted on replying again. I'm not sure what more you want. You really should relax.
 
DVMDream said:
And you aren't the only one I've told this to but: Assume positive intent.

You seem to take offense very easily. Very easily. Then you get snappy at us for just giving advice. Always always always assume positive intent. Nobody was rude to you this time initially either until you got snappy and started telling people they are being mean for giving you advice. It is starting to be more like anyone who doesn't 100% agree with me is being mean to me.
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All of this isn't true. I take offense for things that anyone would take offense to... I am very used to people not agreeing with me, and I am used to handling these conversations in a civilized manner. But some things said on here ARE said negatively. Whether it was intended or not, it isn't right. Everything I say on here is what I would say in real life, to a person's face. I feel like a lot of people are meaner on here because they can get away with it, their life is not going to be affected by it.

I really, truly always try to assume positive intent because you are right! Life is better when you assume that people are being kind and friendly and just want to help. But this has not been the case recently. It just hasn't been. When people continue to argue and argue and argue and do not listen to what I am trying to say, simply because THEY do not agree, cannot be taken as positive intent. If you knew me in real life, you would know that I would be the LAST person to assume someone is trying to be mean. I see the good in everyone. Hence my view of "assuming people are telling the truth until proven wrong". BUT, there are some things people say that cannot be taken positively.
When someone says "what is wrong with you?!", I cannot take that as a positive thing.
When someone says "you need to reign that attitude in", I cannot take that as a positive thing.
When someone is condescending for no reason (when it would literally take just as much effort to say something nicely) such as ".... Even though you don't actually have any evidence that would lead you to that conclusion? Ok.", I cannot take that as a positive thing.

Every time I comment back to defend my view, in a civil way, people scream "WOAHHHH, STOP BEING SO DEFENSIVE". I am literally quietly defending my opinion. I am not trying to tell you that you aren't right, but that I have a REASON to think what I do and why I do. But somehow, this comes across as me trying to start arguments? That just simply is not the case. I do not want to argue. But I want people to know why I said certain things and the reason for it.
 
And now my daughter's abdomen is distended and doughy! ****ety, ****, ****!!!!
 
LetItSnow said:
Here is my original response to you:



If you believe that my post "invalidates" your opinion ... or that it is "offensive and rude" .... or that it "belittles and harshly criticizes" ....

Well. I guess I just have no response to that other than to say I think you are being incredibly defensive and over-the-top and should probably take a step back and calm down. I apologize for getting you worked up. I have already noted that I will refrain from offering you advice in the future, which should alleviate your concerns. I wished you well in vet school - genuinely - in the PM thread that you started. I also asked for that conversation to stop, which you ignored and insisted on replying again. I'm not sure what more you want. You really should relax.
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I was very clear that I was not expecting a response from you. I was not looking to force you to continue the conversation. But you can't expect someone to stop mid-thought because you didn't feel like continuing.. That's not how it works. At least, not for me.
 
hazelmoo said:
All of this isn't true. I take offense for things that anyone would take offense to... I am very used to people not agreeing with me, and I am used to handling these conversations in a civilized manner. But some things said on here ARE said negatively. Whether it was intended or not, it isn't right. Everything I say on here is what I would say in real life, to a person's face. I feel like a lot of people are meaner on here because they can get away with it, their life is not going to be affected by it.

I really, truly always try to assume positive intent because you are right! Life is better when you assume that people are being kind and friendly and just want to help. But this has not been the case recently. It just hasn't been. When people continue to argue and argue and argue and do not listen to what I am trying to say, simply because THEY do not agree, cannot be taken as positive intent. If you knew me in real life, you would know that I would be the LAST person to assume someone is trying to be mean. I see the good in everyone. Hence my view of "assuming people are telling the truth until proven wrong". BUT, there are some things people say that cannot be taken positively.
When someone says "what is wrong with you?!", I cannot take that as a positive thing.
When someone says "you need to reign that attitude in", I cannot take that as a positive thing.
When someone is condescending for no reason (when it would literally take just as much effort to say something nicely) such as ".... Even though you don't actually have any evidence that would lead you to that conclusion? Ok.", I cannot take that as a positive thing.

Every time I comment back to defend my view, in a civil way, people scream "WOAHHHH, STOP BEING SO DEFENSIVE". I am literally quietly defending my opinion. I am not trying to tell you that you aren't right, but that I have a REASON to think what I do and why I do. But somehow, this comes across as me trying to start arguments? That just simply is not the case. I do not want to argue. But I want people to know why I said certain things and the reason for it.
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Seriously, LIS had nearly the exact same nearly identical conversation with me a few months back about not automatically judging what rDVMs do. It was in PMs via FB and he used similar wording. It wasn't rude, at all. Not even in the slightest bit. It was more of a "hey, don't forget about blah blah blah". Not rude.
 
LetItSnow said:
Here is my original response to you:



If you believe that my post "invalidates" your opinion ... or that it is "offensive and rude" .... or that it "belittles and harshly criticizes" ....

Well. I guess I just have no response to that other than to say I think you are being incredibly defensive and over-the-top and should probably take a step back and calm down. I apologize for getting you worked up. I have already noted that I will refrain from offering you advice in the future, which should alleviate your concerns. I wished you well in vet school - genuinely - in the PM thread that you started. I also asked for that conversation to stop, which you ignored and insisted on replying again. I'm not sure what more you want. You really should relax.
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I didn't really think this first post was offensive and rude. However, what came after that was. If you look back, you can clearly see who the first one to induce snarkiness was.. I was literally just telling you why I thought those things and you decided you needed to be sarcastic and snarky... I am going to retaliate against that :/ But, like I said, if you still think that I was the one to start the argument, I can't do or say anything to show you that that was not my intention.
 
DVMDream said:
Seriously, LIS had nearly the exact same nearly identical conversation with me a few months back about not automatically judging what rDVMs do. It was in PMs via FB and he used similar wording. It wasn't rude, at all. Not even in the slightest bit.
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I wasn't upset about his first message. I whole-heartedly agree with what he said about assuming things from rDMVs. But there are always exceptions and I was sharing my experience and why I felt that way. He became annoyed when I responded with WHY I thought those things and why I felt that way. I wasn't trying to start an argument, but it can't be expected that I am not going to elaborate on my initial response and explain myself.
 
hazelmoo said:
I wasn't upset about his first message. I whole-heartedly agree with what he said about assuming things from rDMVs. But there are always exceptions and I was sharing my experience and why I felt that way. He became annoyed when I responded with WHY I thought those things and why I felt that way. I wasn't trying to start an argument, but it can't be expected that I am not going to elaborate on my initial response and explain myself.
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It is professional courtesy to not assume the vet didn't do, didn't say or didn't whatever with a patient/client.

You only question another vet if records and patient exam, history, bw, etc clearly show that vet failed.

You still doubled down and decide to believe the client. Clients lie. A lot.
 
hazelmoo said:
I am not going to argue with anyone anymore on the subject. So you can say whatever you want but I am leaving it at that.
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Just in case you forgot saying this. I really *will* 'leave it at that'. Very best of luck to you in vet school, as I wished you privately. I mean that sincerely. I think you would do well to not react so defensively, and I think that you should extend the "benefit of the doubt" that you ascribed to your client to everyone ELSE in that scenario, including the vet that you ranted about, and to me. There's not just a little irony and hypocrisy, otherwise.
 
LetItSnow said:
Just in case you forgot saying this. I really *will* 'leave it at that'. Very best of luck to you in vet school, as I wished you privately. I mean that sincerely. I think you would do well to not react so defensively, and I think that you should extend the "benefit of the doubt" that you ascribed to your client to everyone ELSE in that scenario, including the vet that you ranted about, and to me. There's not just a little irony and hypocrisy, otherwise.
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Thank you!
 
So you're in the Ontario Provincial Police department. You get a call about some aggressive, possibly rabid coyote in town. You go to the location and see the animal in the street. You decide to run it over, then run it over again and then again before shooting it.

Ohh but guess what? It was someone's senior German Shepherd type dog.

oops?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/coyote-opp-collingwood-1.3281158
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opp-dog-collingwood-1.3281740

(I don't think this was in any way ok for a coyote either)
 
Caia said:
So you're in the Ontario Provincial Police department. You get a call about some aggressive, possibly rabid coyote in town. You go to the location and see the animal in the street. You decide to run it over, then run it over again and then again before shooting it.

Ohh but guess what? It was someone's senior German Shepherd type dog.

oops?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/coyote-opp-collingwood-1.3281158
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opp-dog-collingwood-1.3281740

(I don't think this was in any way ok for a coyote either)
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I don't think that is ok to do at any time to anything, animal or otherwise! Holy crap!
 
So, they think she is now just full up of softened, fluidy stool and her guts are "just suddenly running very slowly, for whatever reason." I just need to keep on with the Mira lax and enemas if she doesn't go and hopefully it will sort itself out. Her swollen gut is just because it is sooo full.

Beyond that being annoying, is it bad that when they handed me the copy of her rad that the first thing I thought was "Geez, we're gonna need hip surgery. Those are some shallow sockets!"? I said something out loud and the doc giggled at me and then took me a lot more seriously than I think he had for the prior 20 minutes of our visit.
 
LadyOtheFarm said:
So, they think she is now just full up of softened, fluidy stool and her guts are "just suddenly running very slowly, for whatever reason." I just need to keep on with the Mira lax and enemas if she doesn't go and hopefully it will sort itself out. Her swollen gut is just because it is sooo full.

Beyond that being annoying, is it bad that when they handed me the copy of her rad that the first thing I thought was "Geez, we're gonna need hip surgery. Those are some shallow sockets!"? I said something out loud and the doc giggled at me and then took me a lot more seriously than I think he had for the prior 20 minutes of our visit.
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Aw poor thing! Glad to hear it's nothing more serious.
 
hazelmoo said:
Yeah, apparently I can't say anything right.
Silly me, a pre-vet student acting like a pre-vet on the pre-vet forum of SDN... :/

It has NOTHING to do with what I do or do not want to believe. It has to do with graduated veterinarians on here giving "advice" in a manner that is taken as offensive and rude by many pre vet students, not just me. Over and over and over again. If there is such an issue with the way that people are saying things, I don't understand why it continues. Us PRE-VETS are not the only ones that could learn a thing or two from each other. You all were pre-vets at one point too. I am not claiming that I know more than you all or the only opinion that matters is my own, but I am sick of people INVALIDATING my opinion because I am a pre-vet student. Yes, I can still learn a lot from you and I appreciate good intentioned advice. No, I do not appreciate being belittled and harshly criticized by people for a post that was made on the RANT THREAD in response to another RANT. It's like a snowball. Once someone disagrees with something you say, you take it as a challenge to invalidate and comment on everything else by said poster from then on. I don't understand. But, oh well. Apparently I don't understand a lot of things.
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Woah there... You need to take a chill pill. All I was saying to LIS was that he needs to stop poking at you because you BLOW UP like this.

And yes, prevets will be prevets. We've all been there. Saying misguided and or offensive things without realizing it (not the fault of the inexperienced, you just don't know until you've lived it and have been affected by it). It's like with most things, there comes a point where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Your opinions are not being invalidated because you're prevet, it's because of the content... regardless of whether or not it stems from inexperience.

I too as a young padawan was scolded back in the day many a times (and hell, even now), for my ignorance/misguided attitude. It might have stung a little at the time but they were always true. People got themselves involved only because my ideas were not only wrong, but not good for someone who was becoming a vet. But you know what, I thought about them each time and learned from them. Even if I didn't quite get why my point of view from my limited set of experiences at the time didn't match up at all to what people were saying, I stewed on them and just at least learned not say those things. But that made me very aware of those issues, and over the years I would realize why it was that I was wrong. Literally, every time something was a big enough deal that multiple vet students (we didn't have any vets then) corrected me, I realized later that they were absolutely right... AND I realized the only reason why they got involved was because a vet CANNOT think the way I thought.

This is the case here. As a member of the profession, unless proven otherwise, professional courtesy dictates that you MUST give other veterinarians benefit of doubt. You MUST not give into the previous vet bashing that the client goes on. Cause you know what, you'll learn quickly that a majority of the time a client that clinic hops and complains about the previous vet is not a client you want. They're all happy with you until they're not, and you are their next previous vet. It the client didn't initiate it, you sure as hell should not as a vet, and especially as support staff. That is why people criticized you, NOT because you were a prevet with an opinion. Don't you worry it's not just you, and it's not just because this is an Internet forum that people got involved. My staff is pretty good about it, but if they say anything remotely close to what you said, they would be spoken to about it. No one would have criticized you at all if you had said "huh I wonder what transpired at her last visit to end up with this outcome?" Rather than, "I trust the client that her last vet mismanaged this case (even though I have no evidence)"

It's not just prevets. Vet students in teaching hospitals are notorious for rDVM bashing and it is WRONG. It is very easy to play Monday-morning quarterback. Even if the care was suboptimal, you are also not privy to the conversation between client and rDVM that led to that. When things aren't going well, it's human nature for people to want to place a blame on someone, and clients naturally blame the rDVM. When vet students who are overwhelmed and overworked over seeing 3-4 cases a day, where each case comes with months to years long history of information/data that they can look back on, they have no idea how it is to be on the frontlines seeing 20+ cases a day and starting with a blank slate with only the words of the client and your physical exam and limited funds to work with.

hazelmoo said:
I am not going to argue with anyone anymore on the subject. So you can say whatever you want but I am leaving it at that.
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Please follow through with this. It will do you a lot of good. If you've noticed the trend, things only escalate when you keep ramping it up with each response. Just as you don't appreciate "harsh critique" that keeps snowballing, no one appreciates someone who increasingly disrespectfully argues about a heartfelt advice that they give, and that's where the snark comes in. Just leave it be if you're going to just get angry after each passing reply.

Please note this is the last response I will EVER make to any of your posts. You don't have to worry about this mean vet invalidating your opinions anymore.
 
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Minnerbelle said:
Aw poor thing! Glad to hear it's nothing more serious.
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At the same time: why would her guts just suddenly basically shut off? Something more is going on, but hasn't been found yet.

The current theory is stress, possibly with the stomach bug that made the rest of us get vomiting and diarrhea on top. We are moving, but that hasn't been a stressor for her. She's been pretty amused by it and the fact that she gets more parent time, not less. Her preschool on the other hand is a POS. The last class was great, but over summer break, they moved the class from one school to another and my kid was one of maybe 2 or 3 being sent elsewhere. Well, the new PreK teachers, from everything I've seen, don't like kids, feel overwhelmed, and really dislike their class being made up of mainly ESL (English as a Second Language) students. My kid does speak English, but like many things, speech can be difficult for her when she is too tired or distracted and then she tends to gibberish. We use ASL (American Sign Language) to help in those moments and as a focus/assistant in everyday speech. This school has nobody who knows it or is willing to learn. They weren't willing to put any time into trying to understand any of her garbled speech either. Within 2 weeks, I went from having a happy chatterbox who knew her whole alphabet and counts to 20 for pleasure and sings constantly to bringing home a broken, silent child who would express frustration and cry rather than even attempt to ask for more food. I watched them let other kids fight over her like a doll and then carry her around the classroom while she struggled to get away. She ended up biting 2 of these kids over the next week, so I explained what I had seen to her teaching staff and asked that they work harder on communication, even without the use of sign. They responded by first treating my daughter like a rabid dog: nobody should touch her, all kids should stay 3 feet back at all times, she got pushed back from the rest of the group at circle times so she couldn't touch anyone either... This is not healthy for her or the other kids to learn that she is "undesirable" and "untouchable." When I confronted them on that, they said they would change it, but then presented me with a form that basically would give them permission to call my kid emotionally unstable. My kid, who before they ever saw her was hugging her friends hello and goodbye. My kid who has been the poster child for a local special needs daycare. My kid who used to sing and dance and giggle incessantly but now walks out of her class unwilling to hold my hand because she is taught to put her hands in fists at her sides and clamp her mouth shut to follow the other students while they hold hands...:rage: I explained what was going on to her daycare and her old teacher and we all agreed that she needs out of there. I filled out the paperwork and she hasn't been since Monday while we wait for a new class. While I am happy that she is back to giggling and smiling and hugging and kissing all the staff and friends at her daycare, I am so mad that this ever happened, not only to my kid, but that this was historically how kids were treated if they were different. The fact that it has happened in this day and age is appalling. The idea that this treatment is also possibly responsible for my daughter's health as of late....:boom::boom::boom::boom::boom::boom:
And then I get those sooo very helpful people who after the fact say "Oh, that school? I would never send my kid or anyone I know to that school! They have such a horrible track record of damaging kids."
You rat bastard mother ****ers! Where was this comment a month or 2 ago?
 
dyachei said:
If that were me, LotF, I would try and find another place for her. That school sounds like it's a mess.
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Yeah, like I said, I pulled her out starting this Monday, but I kept hoping that they were just young teachers and that somehow I was wrong... Part of the problem is that now that I am that mom that fought the system, I get to fight them all the time. Now they assume I am adversarial, not that something went wrong on their end. And I have to figure out how much of a pain to be. I for sure need to take their assessment request and write out a calm and rational denial letter and mail it so that they have to sign for it. But, do I also file a formal complaint? And how bad do I feel for those other kids? Only 2 of them aren't bused both to and from school so no chance of meeting parents, but these kids are the quietest, scaredest looking bunch of 4 and 5 year olds... how many kids do you know that never smile?

Regardless of your politics, I'm not sure many people would feel comfortable calling that a good educational environment and no child should be "dumped" into a crappy classroom because it takes effort to care.

For those of you with no kids: try rereading this under the assumption that I have an English Bulldog puppy (similar health problems 😉) and instead of preschool, my show trained puppy got sent to the shelter for obedience training with a classroom full of chihuahuas. My pup, not only forgets her show manners but then only cowers in the corner after each training session. The other pups don't bite or bark, but also look hollow and don't wag their tails or dance in circles. These pups all need to go out into the world... are they being taught success or being groomed for the high kill shelter back room?

Sooo mad and worried for my kid
 
Minnerbelle said:
Agreed, can you take her elsewhere?
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Oh yeah, sorry. That was supposed to be my point. The form I filled out was an official request to transfer schools. And a statement that I am not bringing her back there so they need to find me somewhere else. Officially, they can just stick us on a "wait list" and forget about us. I'm trying to stay positive and read the Special Needs Coordinator's tone not as confrentational, but as tired and worn when she says things like that. She says they don't have buses to my daycare. We have 2 other kids being bused there from different schools, got the names last night. She says few people sign. I got the names and schools of several schools that do (nevermind it is a legal obligation to provide an education with communication in the child's primary language including assistive technology if needed :bang:)

Anywho, I'm working on the list for her so I can be "helpful" rather than a POA asking for something unreasonable.
 
hazelmoo said:
I wasn't upset about his first message. I whole-heartedly agree with what he said about assuming things from rDMVs. But there are always exceptions and I was sharing my experience and why I felt that way. He became annoyed when I responded with WHY I thought those things and why I felt that way. I wasn't trying to start an argument, but it can't be expected that I am not going to elaborate on my initial response and explain myself.
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People get frustrated when they give advice, especially advice that is absolutely critical for you to understand, and that advice is dismissed. You have said you understand, but you also repeatedly state that you still believe the client without any evidence as to what the vet told that client. I understand giving someone the benefit of the doubt, but why don't you extend that courtesy to one of your future colleagues?

I've learned that is absolutely critical to never ever express to a client that you think something another vet did or said was wrong, even if you don't agree with what the other vet did (there are exceptions, but they are rare). I recall several cases where Drs I worked with were consulted regarding a previous vet experience or for a second opinion, and while the Dr had evidence that inappropriate treatment was given or recommended, they NEVER told the client that. Generally they would say something like "I'm not sure why Dr. X chose that treatment, but this is how I personally treat that condition..." It's important to not place blame.

There was one case that we expressed to a client that a previous vet made an error, but even that was handled tactfully. A spayed dog came in with a pyometra, and we advised the client to contact the previous vet to let them know what occurred since clearly an error occurred during the spay procedure. The previous vet handled it extremely professionally and paid for the corrective surgery to be done at the vet of the clients choice. Our Dr spoke with the previous vet, and they had a very cordial conversation. The previous vet said he obviously didn't remember what happened, since it was 10+ years prior, but clearly he made a mistake and he would do whatever was necessary to correct it. Everyone makes mistakes, even vets while performing a routine surgery they have done many times. That single event does not mean that previous vet was a bad Dr, he made a mistake, and therefore there was no reason for anyone in our office to bash him or speak negatively about him to the client.

Ultimately, bad mouthing another vet just reflects poorly on you. It's better to take the high road and keep any negative opinions to yourself.
 
Hmoo, sorry, this is just gonna keep coming up. The gist of what you need to know is that you stepped on a landmine in every profession. Even once you understand what any single one of these posters is trying to say, it is s big deal for many, many people and they all want their say. It sounds harsher, even in the nicest terms, to be told you are wrong repeatedly. Just remember there are many, many people here and you touched something that struck a nerve. They are all gonna want their say. It doesn't make them all angry, though it can seem that way when you are the brunt of the post pile.

Take from it what you can. Every experience is a learning experience if you approach it that way.

I too have seen this from both sides and my advice, from the person that likes to assume honesty, is assume that the person with the story that makes someone else sound bad, just completely misunderstood what was going on.(Though that blew up in my face with my daughter.) It can happen on both sides of the exam table, but since the vet has more experience in vet med, it is often less likely that they are the ones misunderstanding, but we all have days...
 
Not exactly a rant...but just had our first lecture with the infamous Dr. Willard. I'm now terrified for next year's clinical correlates course/internal med rotation. :scared:
 
katashark said:
Ok, I think quite enough has been said in regards to Hmoo now, everyone. 5 people saying pretty much the same thing to her is plenty. I think we all get it. Please, let's all move on.
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tumblr_lug7war0zi1r4b08ro1_500.gif
 
My second rant in the last 24 hours: resident who is passive aggressive, you have set off the fire pre-alarm twice with your vape pen. I caught you in the act the first time and you admitted the act in your passive aggressive e-mail the second time. No, I wasn't going to talk to you about your write-up at 10:45 at night when I'm simply on call; you're freaking lucky I wasn't asleep when you set off the alarm. No, I am not just going to e-mail you what options are available to you simply because, "There's no point of meeting about it since you didn't bother to ask me about it before writing a violation"; you, just like every other resident, have to come see me today between 7 am and 7 pm. You left your room after allowing your vape pen to overheat and set off the alarm. When we write-up residents, we don't ask them their permission. Just because you're the only GA that lives on campus does not mean you get to be passive aggressive towards me when I am simply treating you like I treat everyone else.

Response to rant: Sorry, LotF. 🙁 . That's no good. I noticed you said this:

LadyOtheFarm said:
Part of the problem is that now that I am that mom that fought the system, I get to fight them all the time. Now they assume I am adversarial, not that something went wrong on their end. And I have to figure out how much of a pain to be. I for sure need to take their assessment request and write out a calm and rational denial letter and mail it so that they have to sign for it. But, do I also file a formal complaint?
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My mom was that mom all through my time in public education. There were several situations that my mother spoke to people while I was in elementary school (though none as severe as yours 🙁 ), including a situation where she was called when my sister kissed a boy on the cheek, but not when I smacked a kid in the face with one of my casts (obviously kissing is way more offensive that violence......). As her child, I have no regrets for her "fighting the system". Every time, they were problems that absolutely needed to be fixed. Thankfully we were in a district that responded positively. Do what you have to do for your kiddo, especially if this is the reason she is so sick!!!!

@alohacat319, thank you!
 
My rant for the day? My husband works for the county and therefore our insurance rolls over on the fiscal year and not on the calendar year. So I have to meet all my deductibles again. Not a big deal. Well, I'm scheduled for a procedure in a few weeks and will need to meet my deductible (over $1k...which is a lot) and the benefits person at my doctor's office has called me 3-4 times. The first time she was convinced my provider was out of network. So I called my insurance company and found out that my provider has 2 entries - she's an HMO and PPO provider and they bill differently. So I called the benefits person back and gave her the case number and name of the lady at the insurance office. Got a call back later that she WAS in network and there shouldn't be a problem. Well apparently she called back today and is convinced they are out of network again even though we already debunked that. I'm sure it's in network - based on what the insurance person was saying and my personal research but I think the benefits person is slow. It's SO freaking frustrating because we know what the issue is and she's just not bright enough to check the other way despite being given the info to do so.
 
Oh my god. I so badly want to post something about the whole client thing. (Not directed specifically at hazelmoo! Honest!!!!) I just had the most perfectest example ever that happened last night / this morning of why you should always always always have <SOME> reservation about what a client tells you. OMG. I wish I could post it. (But since it's an as-yet unresolved issue..... I can't.) UGH!

I do agree with @katashark ... point has been made. There's no need to pile on someone. Movin' on.
 
LetItSnow said:
Oh my god. I so badly want to post something about the whole client thing. (Not directed specifically at hazelmoo! Honest!!!!) I just had the most perfectest example ever that happened last night / this morning of why you should always always always have <SOME> reservation about what a client tells you. OMG. I wish I could post it. (But since it's an as-yet unresolved issue..... I can't.) UGH!

I do agree with @katashark ... point has been made. There's no need to pile on someone. Movin' on.
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Some of these stories get really, really funny!
 
LetItSnow said:
Oh my god. I so badly want to post something about the whole client thing. (Not directed specifically at hazelmoo! Honest!!!!) I just had the most perfectest example ever that happened last night / this morning of why you should always always always have <SOME> reservation about what a client tells you. OMG. I wish I could post it. (But since it's an as-yet unresolved issue..... I can't.) UGH!

I do agree with @katashark ... point has been made. There's no need to pile on someone. Movin' on.
Click to expand...

We have a client with 2 VERY overweight kitties. The doctor I was with that day recommended cutting back their food some and explained the medical consequences of obesity. She left me to discuss diet. The owner was feeding 100% kibble and when I explained the benefits of a canned diet she told me that another doctor in our hospital said to feed kibble only. No. This is a 5 doctor practice and not one of the doctors would ever recommend a kibble-only diet for any cat. In short, I think people hear what they want to hear and twist what we say (though hopefully inadvertently).

Like someone else mentioned, I can't count the number of times I've heard "I don't know what meds Fluffy is on, my SO does that" 😵
 
EngrSC said:
We have a client with 2 VERY overweight kitties. The doctor I was with that day recommended cutting back their food some and explained the medical consequences of obesity. She left me to discuss diet. The owner was feeding 100% kibble and when I explained the benefits of a canned diet she told me that another doctor in our hospital said to feed kibble only. No. This is a 5 doctor practice and not one of the doctors would ever recommend a kibble-only diet for any cat. In short, I think people hear what they want to hear and twist what we say (though hopefully inadvertently).

Like someone else mentioned, I can't count the number of times I've heard "I don't know what meds Fluffy is on, my SO does that" 😵
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client with an overweight dog doesn't care to listen to me when I tell her that her dog will have all these health issues if she doesn't cut back. "But she's so cute fat." Do you think arthritis is cute? How about a CCL rupture? Anyway, discharging her from her dental recently the client asks if she can have her daily sweet tea today. She goes to McDonald's every day and buys her dog sweet tea. :lame:

She didn't want to listen to info about caffeine toxicity or empty calories. Her dog really loves that sweet tea!
 
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