RANT HERE thread

Veterinary Science Graduate Programs from U. of I.
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SkiOtter said:
If they really want people who are comfortable handling the dead and being able to treat the bodies with respect, the call out should really be for funeral directors and mortuary science students instead of vets and techs
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I really, really hope they've thought to ask for help from that sector already
Though I can't say I'd be surprised if not, because nothing surprises me anymore :laugh:
 
SkiOtter said:
If they really want people who are comfortable handling the dead and being able to treat the bodies with respect, the call out should really be for funeral directors and mortuary science students instead of vets and techs
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they’re experiencing 2-3x the number of deaths compared to usual right now. I think those people are tapped out.
 
WildZoo said:
I really, really hope they've thought to ask for help from that sector already
Though I can't say I'd be surprised if not, because nothing surprises me anymore :laugh:
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I mean, I would certainly hope so too but you never know. There’s 57 schools in the US that offer degrees and I can’t imagine they don’t all have at least two students. That’s over 100 people right there. Plus anyone already in the field.
 
JaynaAli said:
The NY vet board apparently sent out an “apology” email shortly after the one asking for volunteers that basically said, yeah we are sorry if people are offended, we asked the ME office to reword things if they really wanted to attract veterinarians to volunteer for this because we thought it came off like any strong body is really all they want, and the ME doubled down on the wording and said to send it as they wrote. It was clearly one of those apologies where the people were just shifting blame but trying to calm the masses and idk if it really helped or not.

I think this is one of those things that was good intentioned but ultimately how they went about it probably ruined it. They can certainly ask and some people may be willing to do it. But phrasing is important. A lot of the outrage I’ve heard is that there was no mention of pay in the emails. It says volunteer...does that mean you just want people to step up and you’ll pay them or do you expect people to do this for free? Because nurses are reportedly getting thousands of dollars and lodging for coming to help, and if you’re asking a vet to work for free that’s really kinda annoying and taking advantage of our experience and education. But at the same time, money doesn’t grow on trees and I can see why they’d ask for true volunteers before offering pay. A vet isn’t used to the intricacies of the hospital systems like a nurse or doctor is...we’ve all had “help” that was so labor intensive to train it wasn’t actually a help, so I can see why they are trying to put people in a “lesser” role. Idk. I agree that this wasn’t done in the best way but this is a desperate situation in these areas...just don’t volunteer if you don’t like it. It isn’t a draft (yet anyway).
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I'm in Connecticut right now so close to the "source." I've heard they are offering slim pay, $14/hour. That's another reason some people in my circle up here are offended by it. Because exactly as others are now saying, some healthcare workers who are testing people, not even directly working with confirmed positive patients, are getting offered large sums of money (not saying they shouldn't!) and yet us veterinarians and vet techs who actually WOULD be very likely exposed to confirmed positive patients doing this work are offered $14/hour.
 
In 2008, the medical examiner’s office published the “Pandemic Influenza Surge Plan for In- and Out-of-Hospital Deaths,” a 93-page document that envisions a nightmare scenario in which more than 50,000 people die in an outbreak in New York over the course of just two months.

The plan takes into account not only the chaos that would likely erupt at hospitals and funeral homes, but also the panic that could easily ensue as residents begin to haul the bodies of their loved ones from their homes and deposit them at firehouses and police stations.

The medical examiner’s office has already enacted at least some parts of “Tier One” of its plan, sending mobile cold storage units to hospitals and easing restrictions on crematories.

In the second part of the plan, the medical examiner’s office would start sending bodies to the potter’s field on Hart Island in the Bronx, where they would be buried by inmates from the city’s main jail at Rikers Island. The coronavirus has wracked Rikers Island, where nearly 200 inmates have tested positive.
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Well... I guess this is what it’ll look like when they start “drafting” people per the NYT.

 
allygator13 said:
I'm in Connecticut right now so close to the "source." I've heard they are offering slim pay, $14/hour. That's another reason some people in my circle up here are offended by it. Because exactly as others are now saying, some healthcare workers who are testing people, not even directly working with confirmed positive patients, are getting offered large sums of money (not saying they shouldn't!) and yet us veterinarians and vet techs who actually WOULD be very likely exposed to confirmed positive patients doing this work are offered $14/hour.
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Yup... this is why it would be a hard no for me. They would have to pay me significantly higher than relief veterinarian wages to do that, and even then I’m not sure I would.
 
So in response to the helping on morgues... I have so much I am pissed about with this whole thing and how the veterinary profession has been treated.

I am disappointed in some colleagues and just how much they have abandoned animal health and just tossed away that part of our oath because we must care for the HuMaNs....

I have seen vets advocate for doing nothing for animals. I have seen them advocate for keeping pets in pain and with conditions that will shorten their lifespans instead of treating these animals.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should be doing spay/neuter and routine dental procedures. Certain vaccines probably don't need to be done immediately.

But I definitely see where some have flipped this too far the other extreme into animals not getting really any treatment at all. Basically advocating that if they die, well they just die.

Honestly, this has made me increasingly sad over the past 4-6 weeks. Like beyond sad. That colleagues have so quickly abandoned their patients. Part of public health is mental health and currently the human-animal bond is insanely important. By not treating conditions that will impact the QOL and lifespan of our patients, we are harming human health. Period.

What makes me pissed, is that the colleagues are doing this under the assumption that everyone is on board to send PPE to humans, donate ventilators, etc, etc. But this isn't the case. Heck even the human doctors can't get their ish together and stop unnecessary medical procedures. I have seen some fertility clinics still running business as normal. Sorry, not sorry, but you don't need to be attempting to bring in a human at this time. Those supplies can go to COVID patients and the medical staff treating them. I have seen cosmetic surgeons still performing these procedures. Another unnecessary thing.

So here we are in veterinary medicine breaking our profession, literally sentencing our patients to death in some instances to help out and even the medical community in many aspects doesn't give a crap.

They are asking veterinarians to volunteer on the front lines with live, infected patients. VOLUNTEER. That is after we have stripped our businesses to bare bones, causing many to lay off staff, after we have donated all of our supplies. And they want us to VOLUNTEER to help in areas where medical staff are showing the crap PPE they are provided? They are paying giant lumps of money to MDs and nurses to help but veterinarians are expected to just volunteer. Yeah, **** you. And you are highly unlikely to be given any form of adequate PPE. So, basically they are going "so we know that we have crippled your business, taken all of your supplies and left you not able to treat your patients, but um, would you mind donating your life too?"

I can 100% guarantee none of those donated ventilators will get back to any veterinary clinic. Too much unorganized chaos for them to pay attention where it came from and get it returned. We all know for sure that the government isn't going to provide any financial compensation to the veterinary community that stepped up to donate supplies. So when all the dust settles on this we will be left having to pick up the pieces of our own profession with literally no finances to do so. More will lose jobs so we can replace supplies. If veterinarians and staff volunteer, we will lose some of them to the virus as well.

So I already see all of this and then they have the audacity to suggest that because we euthanize animals that we are equipped to deal with dead humans? What in the actual bull is going on in their heads? We aren't grief counselors FFS. Asking the profession with the highest suicide rate to deal with the emotional turmoil that these families who lost loved one are going through is so incredibly ridiculous and quite frankly, insulting. Especially considering how we have already decimated our field so much back to bare bones to help. Now they are basically asking us to risk our lives for free as well. There is a HUGE difference in the grief of a lost pet that most people expect to lose at some point in their life and the grief of a lost family member unexpectedly due to a pandemic.

Yeah, I am not feeling too sympathetic to their cause, to be honest.

AND this is the most insulting part that I am sure many didn't even know about... THEY HAVE A GROUP OF PEOPLE TRAINED TO DO AND WILL BE PAID TO DO WHAT THEY ARE ASKING US TO DO FOR FREE..... And they haven't activated them.

 
Definitely not disagreeing with many of the overall statements that have been made about this, but specifically to the point about animal deaths not being the same as human deaths...

For some people, their pet is their whole life. And even if people rationally expect their pet to die at some point before they do (which honestly might not even be true for some elderly and terminally ill people), a pet's death can still be a terrible shock.

I realize there is a lot of generalization and hyperbole going on at the moment to make broader points, and I'm not disputing those, but I just wanted to speak up to say that I personally feel like the death of a pet can have the same gravitas as the loss of a family member, because for some people, pets are the only family they have.

Basically -- just want to make sure we're not discounting that grief in an attempt to make a point, because in my opinion pet loss often gets treated as "less significant grief" in our culture & that's not necessarily how it seems to an individual experiencing loss. (Which I know everyone here probably understands and is very sympathetic to IRL.)

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In a completely different vein... as someone who has had friends go to fertility clinics and plastic surgeons for reasons you might not expect (e.g for the latter, the person got kicked in the face by a horse)... I can see why those clinics are staying open too. Not all of their procedures are "elective" in the sense that they can be postponed indefinitely.
 
PippyPony said:
Definitely not disagreeing with many of the overall statements that have been made about this, but specifically to the point about animal deaths not being the same as human deaths...

For some people, their pet is their whole life. And even if people rationally expect their pet to die at some point before they do (which honestly might not even be true for some elderly and terminally ill people), a pet's death can still be a terrible shock.

I realize there is a lot of generalization and hyperbole going on at the moment to make broader points, and I'm not disputing those, but I just wanted to speak up to say that I personally feel like the death of a pet can have the same gravitas as the loss of a family member, because for some people, pets are the only family they have.

Basically -- just want to make sure we're not discounting that grief in an attempt to make a point, because in my opinion pet loss often gets treated as "less significant grief" in our culture & that's not necessarily how it seems to an individual experiencing loss. (Which I know everyone here probably understands and is very sympathetic to IRL.)

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That is definitely not what I meant at all, and I would hope most people weren't trying to say that way either. This is also why I don't get why people get offended by calling pets someones kids or someone a pet parent or mom or dad, because pets are family to me. My pets are my kids and I will punch anyone who tells me otherwise. But I still stand by when I said that euthanizing a beloved pet doesn't make us more prepared to handle dead bodies than the general population.

Assisting in end-of-life care for a pet where it was for the quality of life than the pet is typically easy for me to handle emotionally. Euthanasia's in those situations don't usually get to me, because I think it's such a gift we can offer owners and pets when they are suffering. But euthanasia's in trauma or emergency situations do, because it's an accident that shouldn't have happened and a loved one is being ripped away from their family unexpectedly.

Same with if I had to help handle remains of hundreds of people because of a pandemic. These deaths shouldn't have happened, and far fewer would have happened if we had handled this situation differently. So I definitely don't think these deaths are equivalent to ones we are use to and it's inappropriate for the MEO to ask for vets and techs to assist with body handling just because we have experience with death, cause that is in no way the same thing as euthanizing a beloved pet and comforting those families.

I mean, I want to end up doing all hospice care and plan to eventually have a therapy dog I can volunteer with (human) hospice with because I so strongly believe in hospice care. But I definitely couldn't handle working in the morgue because of a pandemic.

I definitely agree with you that animal and human deaths can be just as much of a loss for someone, and we have the research to back it, but I don't think the equivalence can be drawn in this specific case. With euthanasia's vs deaths in a pandemic and the emotional toll that would take on a volunteer, veterinarian or not.
 
Caiter92 said:
That is definitely not what I meant at all, and I would hope most people weren't trying to say that way either. This is also why I don't get why people get offended by calling pets someones kids or someone a pet parent or mom or dad, because pets are family to me. My pets are my kids and I will punch anyone who tells me otherwise. But I still stand by when I said that euthanizing a beloved pet doesn't make us more prepared to handle dead bodies than the general population.

Assisting in end-of-life care for a pet where it was for the quality of life than the pet is typically easy for me to handle emotionally. Euthanasia's in those situations don't usually get to me, because I think it's such a gift we can offer owners and pets when they are suffering. But euthanasia's in trauma or emergency situations do, because it's an accident that shouldn't have happened and a loved one is being ripped away from their family unexpectedly.

Same with if I had to help handle remains of hundreds of people because of a pandemic. These deaths shouldn't have happened, and far fewer would have happened if we had handled this situation differently. So I definitely don't think these deaths are equivalent to ones we are use to and it's inappropriate for the MEO to ask for vets and techs to assist with body handling just because we have experience with death, cause that is in no way the same thing as euthanizing a beloved pet and comforting those families.

I mean, I want to end up doing all hospice care and plan to eventually have a therapy dog I can volunteer with (human) hospice with because I so strongly believe in hospice care. But I definitely couldn't handle working in the morgue because of a pandemic.

I definitely agree with you that animal and human deaths can be just as much of a loss for someone, and we have the research to back it, but I don't think the equivalence can be drawn in this specific case. With euthanasia's vs deaths in a pandemic and the emotional toll that would take on a volunteer, veterinarian or not.
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100% agree.

Side note: you are the only person I know whose "kid" climbs & balances on top of the shower curtain rod to creep on you. Congratulations 😉
 
PippyPony said:
100% agree.

Side note: you are the only person I know whose "kid" climbs & balances on top of the shower curtain rod to creep on you. Congratulations 😉
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MY CHILDREN ARE PERFECT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH

He’s trying to make sure I don’t drown!!! And also smack my hands when I wash my hair. He is so helpful.

also, he doesn’t climb up there anymore. He jumps from the ground these days :laugh: he is insane
 
I feel like it is a very individual thing.

For myself, I think I would be fine to simply tag and move bodies. They are already dead, I don't know their history or their family, and I didn't see them suffer. For me it would be more like seeing a cadaver in surgery lab. I certainly wouldn't be having fun doing it, but it wouldn't destroy me inside. I've been in a human morgue before and it really didn't make me feel anything. Maybe that makes me cold. :shrug:

What I couldn't do is work directly with the families of those that died, or be assisting in direct medical care and be watching people suffer/die. Seeing active suffering and grief is the part that wears me down. In vet med I can still separate myself to a point (but I'm absolutely going to be a vet that tears up a bit when clients are bawling their eyes out telling me how their pet was their life), but I don't think I would be able to manage that with the human population. It's one of the reasons I had no interest in human med.
 
PippyPony said:
Definitely not disagreeing with many of the overall statements that have been made about this, but specifically to the point about animal deaths not being the same as human deaths...

For some people, their pet is their whole life. And even if people rationally expect their pet to die at some point before they do (which honestly might not even be true for some elderly and terminally ill people), a pet's death can still be a terrible shock.

I realize there is a lot of generalization and hyperbole going on at the moment to make broader points, and I'm not disputing those, but I just wanted to speak up to say that I personally feel like the death of a pet can have the same gravitas as the loss of a family member, because for some people, pets are the only family they have.

Basically -- just want to make sure we're not discounting that grief in an attempt to make a point, because in my opinion pet loss often gets treated as "less significant grief" in our culture & that's not necessarily how it seems to an individual experiencing loss. (Which I know everyone here probably understands and is very sympathetic to IRL.)

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In a completely different vein... as someone who has had friends go to fertility clinics and plastic surgeons for reasons you might not expect (e.g for the latter, the person got kicked in the face by a horse)... I can see why those clinics are staying open too. Not all of their procedures are "elective" in the sense that they can be postponed indefinitely.
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Yes, we know the grief can be similar in loss of a pet, but grief is different every time. The grief I had when my dog died was different compared to when my grandma passed. And even the grief between when my one grandma passed compared to the other was different.

I wouldn't say more or less but the grief in each scenario is different. We are NOT equipped as vets to be counseling humans on the loss of their human family members.

I'd argue we aren't really equipped to be doing so on loss of pets either but there's no one else so we shoulder that burden.

You don't go back to the ER Dr or primary physician when family dies for grief counseling, they send you to a grief counselor.

The original ad was to drag vets in to effectively be grief counselors to humans, saying that because we euthanize stuff all the time we're used to it. Hell no we aren't. We are not equipped to deal with that, we're really not even equipped to be dealing with it for our own clients but we're stuck having to.

The death of a pet definitely can be felt as deeply as the loss of human family but that doesn't mean the grief is equal or should be managed in a similar fashion.

As for tagging and bagging bodies, you don't need a DVM degree to do that and suggesting our degree is what makes us equipped to do that is insulting. Like saying we're low level doctors. You don't even need a high school diploma to tag and bag bodies.

As for the cosmetic surgeries, I wasn't referring to those that are making QOL differences. I'm referring to the boob jobs, butt lifts, liposuction, nose jobs etc. The ones that are actually for cosmetic reasons only. They're still being performed.
 
PippyPony said:
Definitely not disagreeing with many of the overall statements that have been made about this, but specifically to the point about animal deaths not being the same as human deaths...

For some people, their pet is their whole life. And even if people rationally expect their pet to die at some point before they do (which honestly might not even be true for some elderly and terminally ill people), a pet's death can still be a terrible shock.

I realize there is a lot of generalization and hyperbole going on at the moment to make broader points, and I'm not disputing those, but I just wanted to speak up to say that I personally feel like the death of a pet can have the same gravitas as the loss of a family member, because for some people, pets are the only family they have.

Basically -- just want to make sure we're not discounting that grief in an attempt to make a point, because in my opinion pet loss often gets treated as "less significant grief" in our culture & that's not necessarily how it seems to an individual experiencing loss. (Which I know everyone here probably understands and is very sympathetic to IRL.)
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Oh trust me I know. My cat WAS my everything. The grief that took over when I lost her was the worst I experienced in my whole life as a mid 30 something year old. I was not the same person after she died for well over a year. For months I couldn’t function. Like literally sobbed on my way to work daily for at least 3 months. This was my 20k+ cat as far as veterinary bills went. I did anything and everything I could for her for the 10 long but way too short years I had her. If given the choice of being able to keep her and never being able to have a child, I probably would have chosen to save her at that time. And this was knowing my biological clock was ticking and the possibility of being childless being a constant awful worry. I was in all seriousness pathologically attached to that cat as she was to me. I’ve lost grandparents and was very sad with their passing, but was not affected like this. So I totally get it, and it crushes me when I see the same in a client who is losing their *everything,* especially the lonely client who literally has no one else. And I know I do a damn good job comforting them to the extent possible.

I do this for a living day in and day out because I feel to the core that of all the services I provide, euthanasia is the most important aspect of my entire job for both the patient and client. A euthanasia appointment and/or housecall is truly an art form. Trust me, I live it everyday. I know how important it is. I don’t need you to tell me.

But it.is.still.not.the.same. It doesn’t mean I’m discounting anything or saying it’s less important. Just because some people are more attached to their pet than they are to the rest of society does not mean I know how people grieve their deceased human family members. It’s just not the same, and I’m simply not equipped to handle human deaths. I would not know what to tell a college kid who lost his mom. Or a widow of someone who’s been their life partner for 50 years. Or the sibling of the essential worker who died way too young in big part to the disparity plaguing the country. I wouldn’t do a good job. It’s just not the same. That’s all.
 
I’m not going to comment on the letter itself, as I can see both sides of the coin and am not sure where I fall. On the one hand, it is on a volunteer basis and no one is being forced to do anything they don’t want to or can’t do, and, at least from what I’ve seen, they are actually offering a small amount of pay, so it’s not as if they are expecting you to work for completely free. On the other, the medical community at large has treated vets pretty badly and as “lesser than” in the past; I understand and appreciate how it might be offensive to those in vet med, though I’m sure it wasn’t their intention.

As for the elective procedure argument... meh, it’s tricky. I feel like it’s up to the doctor(s) and patient involved to evaluate and decide what is truly “elective” and can wait. Fertility clinics were brought up in an earlier post, and while I agree that this is not a great time to be bringing a child into the world, many such clinics offer other services, some of which may be more urgent in the context of the patient’s circumstances. As for plastic surgery, I feel that there is gray area there, too.

What about the person @PippyPony mentioned who needed surgery following a horse kick? What about the trans woman who needs breast augmentation in order to pass and truly live and integrate into society as a woman and for whom it’s a massive issue of psychological/mental health and functioning? What about the child bitten by a neighbor’s dog who needs facial reconstruction? What about the person who severely injured their nose and needs rhinoplasty to resolve breathing difficulties?

I’m largely in the camp of giving the benefit of the doubt on this particular issue. I don’t know the history of every person getting these surgeries/procedures; if the doctor is willing to perform them, then I trust that they think it is of benefit to and/or essential enough to the QOL of that patient to justify not postponing it indefinitely. It’s one of those areas I don’t feel comfortable making generalizations and saying “No, we just flat out, point blank don’t need this service right now”. If these places are staying open and the services are still being offered, then I presume that there is good reason for it and that those decisions are being made on an individual case-by-case basis.
 
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Elkhart said:
I’m not going to comment on the letter itself, as I can see both sides of the coin and am not sure where I fall. On the one hand, it is on a volunteer basis and no one is being forced to do anything they don’t want to or can’t do, and, at least from what I’ve seen, they are actually offering a small amount of pay, so it’s not as if they are expecting you to work for completely free. On the other, the medical community at large has treated vets pretty badly and as “lesser than” in the past; I understand and appreciate how it might be offensive to those in vet med, though I’m sure it wasn’t their intention.

As for the elective procedure argument... meh, it’s tricky. I feel like it’s up to the doctor(s) and patient involved to evaluate and decide what is truly “elective” and can wait. Fertility clinics were brought up in an earlier post, and while I agree that this is not a great time to be bringing a child into the world, many such clinics offer other services, some of which may be more urgent in the context of the patient’s circumstances. As for plastic surgery, I feel that there is gray area there, too.

What about the person @PippyPony mentioned who needed surgery following a horse kick? What about the trans woman who needs breast augmentation in order to pass and truly live and integrate into society as a woman and for whom it’s a massive issue of psychological/mental health and functioning? What about the child bitten by a neighbor’s dog who needs facial reconstruction? What about the person who severely injured their nose and needs rhinoplasty to resolve breathing difficulties?

I’m largely in the camp of giving the benefit of the doubt on this particular issue. I don’t know the history of every person getting these surgeries/procedures; if the doctor is willing to perform them, then I trust that they think it is of benefit to and/or essential enough to the QOL of that patient to justify not postponing it indefinitely. It’s one of those areas I don’t feel comfortable making generalizations and saying “No, we just flat out, point blank don’t need this service right now”. If these places are staying open and the services are still being offered, then I presume that there is good reason for it and that those decisions are being made on an individual case-by-case basis.
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Again, when I post saying the procedures are being done I'm not discussing the gray zone questionable cases. I'm talking about cases in which I 100% know to be 100% elective.

And you'll never convince me fertility treatments and bringing a child into the already over populated planet with thousands of children waiting to be adopted is necessary. You don't need to have biological children it is a want. Period. And during this time, a bit of a selfish want.

Flip over to the vet side and I'm seeing them completely discontinue chemo treatments. Completely stop massive surgical procedures for cancers. I've seen them say no to major orthopedic procedures that will greatly improve QOL and extend the animal's life.

If we're making sacrifices that are resulting in the deaths of our patients, yes, I do expect the human medical community to stop every procedure that can wait a few months. Full stop.

Some places are following the rules. I have a relative who is in constant a fib and is very symptomatic. They cancelled her surgical ablation. I'd consider her surgery highly necessary. Yet you've got some woman with kids already still being able to get her fertility treatments. Yeah, no. That's bull****.

Just trust that I wouldn't mention these cases and procedures still happening if I didn't know 100% that the ones I've heard about are not needed. They can wait a few months without any detriment to the individual.

If we're expected to sacrifice lives in vet med, I expect human med to be able to sacrifice comfort and wants for a few months to save lives from this pandemic.
 
Oh and yeah $14/hr is absurd for pay. Good luck finding somewhere to house yourself in New York for $14/hr where they're needing helping.


Honestly $14/hr when they're offering double digit figures for a couple weeks to others is yet another slap in the face. That's barely minimum wage in many states. That's not what you offer to someone who you're expecting to risk their lives.
 
I know an MD surgeon and he told me recently they are only allowing him to do surgery for cancer patients currently. He’s in WA. I imagine that’s pretty difficult as I’m sure he has a number of clients that fall into the “sick but not sick enough” category.
On a brighter note, my dog was able to get surgery yesterday and for that I’m very grateful.
 
Oh and there's still that whole part about them having a group of people specially trained who will receive a salary whose entire job it is to so what they're asking us to volunteer to do. They just refuse to activate DMORT.

Oh and they confirmed the first case of COVID passed from a corpse to an individual today.
 
Minnerbelle said:
I do this for a living day in and day out because I feel to the core that of all the services I provide, euthanasia is the most important aspect of my entire job for both the patient and client. A euthanasia appointment and/or housecall is truly an art form. Trust me, I live it everyday. I know how important it is. I don’t need you to tell me.
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Yes, sorry -- I didn't mean for my statement to come across as instructional or anything of the sort. That would be pretty presumptuous and pontifical of me.

In reading through the posts from yesterday all in a row, it struck me that a layperson or young pre-vet might read "it's not the same" over and over and start to feel as though one of the take home messages was that the loss of an animal is not equivalent to a person in terms of the amount of grief or "value," even.

And my feeling is that if someone walked away with that impression, it would be a real shame because in my opinion, there couldn't be anything further from the truth -- everyone on here, especially those who have been in practice for a while, possesses an exquisite understanding of the pain associated with the loss of a pet, and places a high value on animal life + quality of death. As you said, you live it every day and experience it from a multitude of angles. I phrased it poorly (and I feel like this explanation is still coming off as more bossy than I mean it to), but I was only piping up in an attempt to allay the potential over-interpretation of "animal death ≠ people death" by someone who might be reading this without a lot of context. That's all.

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To follow up on a previous comment about the kitten litter box... Drat. I was hoping there was a new full line of commercially produced round litter "boxes" from kitten --> extra giant size :laugh: That one you had for the kittens is too small for my big lanky maine coon-ish cats for sure, but I bet they would like to spin around in a bigger version :thinking: It also seems like a round shape might be easier to scoop? idk. Someone should invent that. And also -- a litter with the fine granule size of Kitten Attract, but not so cost prohibitive to use with adult cats. I would buy.
 
PippyPony said:
To follow up on a previous comment about the kitten litter box... Drat. I was hoping there was a new full line of commercially produced round litter "boxes" from kitten --> extra giant size :laugh: That one you had for the kittens is too small for my big lanky maine coon-ish cats for sure, but I bet they would like to spin around in a bigger version :thinking: It also seems like a round shape might be easier to scoop? idk. Someone should invent that. And also -- a litter with the fine granule size of Kitten Attract, but not so cost prohibitive to use with adult cats. I would buy.
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DVMDream said:
Again, when I post saying the procedures are being done I'm not discussing the gray zone questionable cases. I'm talking about cases in which I 100% know to be 100% elective.

And you'll never convince me fertility treatments and bringing a child into the already over populated planet with thousands of children waiting to be adopted is necessary. You don't need to have biological children it is a want. Period. And during this time, a bit of a selfish want.

Flip over to the vet side and I'm seeing them completely discontinue chemo treatments. Completely stop massive surgical procedures for cancers. I've seen them say no to major orthopedic procedures that will greatly improve QOL and extend the animal's life.

If we're making sacrifices that are resulting in the deaths of our patients, yes, I do expect the human medical community to stop every procedure that can wait a few months. Full stop.

Some places are following the rules. I have a relative who is in constant a fib and is very symptomatic. They cancelled her surgical ablation. I'd consider her surgery highly necessary. Yet you've got some woman with kids already still being able to get her fertility treatments. Yeah, no. That's bull****.

Just trust that I wouldn't mention these cases and procedures still happening if I didn't know 100% that the ones I've heard about are not needed. They can wait a few months without any detriment to the individual.

If we're expected to sacrifice lives in vet med, I expect human med to be able to sacrifice comfort and wants for a few months to save lives from this pandemic.
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This... I do disagree with, in part. This is America, and the right to reproduce is recognized by the Supreme Court as fundamental. Fertility treatments for women my age sometimes cannot wait a few months, and categorically denying access to those services could potentially be interpreted as depriving people of one of their essential freedoms as outlined by the constitution.

Whether or not someone should seek out those treatments right now from a moral and ethical perspective... that's a totally different story and opens up about 6 other cans of worms (what if covid is transmissible in utero and linked to birth defects, like Zika is? etc).

And the question of whether IVF etc is a responsible path to pursue when there are so many children in need across the world isn't restricted to the current situation -- although the scarcity of medical equipment is throwing it into higher relief right now.

A clinic at Yale just started to refuse fertility treatments to their patients, and tbh I will be surprised if they/similar providers don't get slapped with a lawsuit at some point. (Although fwiw, I happen to think the healthcare provider would win that case based off of historical precedent.)

Your friend's surgery sounds necessary to me (I'm sorry for them 🙁 ) and so do chemo treatments. Our hospital at school is continuing oncology services for pets, and I am glad they are.
 
...I'm trying not to go too far down the constitutional law path right now because I'm worried I won't be able to squash my rant about some horrifyingly unconstitutional statements made by a certain government official over the past few days. And then I'll get kicked over into the SPF forums and I don't want to go there, plz haha.

but aaaaaaahhhhhh
 
PippyPony said:
This... I do disagree with, in part. This is America, and the right to reproduce is recognized by the Supreme Court as fundamental. Fertility treatments for women my age sometimes cannot wait a few months, and categorically denying access to those services could potentially be interpreted as depriving people of one of their essential freedoms as outlined by the constitution.

Whether or not someone should seek out those treatments right now from a moral and ethical perspective... that's a totally different story and opens up about 6 other cans of worms (what if covid is transmissible in utero and linked to birth defects, like Zika is? etc).

And the question of whether IVF etc is a responsible path to pursue when there are so many children in need across the world isn't restricted to the current situation -- although the scarcity of medical equipment is throwing it into higher relief right now.

A clinic at Yale just started to refuse fertility treatments to their patients, and tbh I will be surprised if they/similar providers don't get slapped with a lawsuit at some point. (Although fwiw, I happen to think the healthcare provider would win that case based off of historical precedent.)

Your friend's surgery sounds necessary to me (I'm sorry for them 🙁 ) and so do chemo treatments. Our hospital at school is continuing oncology services for pets, and I am glad they are.
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The right to reproduce is the right to reproductive freedom. Which means the right to decide if you want children or not, how many you want, when to have them, etc. It is not the right to fertility treatments.

Yeah, you'll never convince me that people have a need for fertility treatments. Ever. I'd argue that if you aren't conceiving there's a genetic reason for that and forcing your body to conceive when it can't naturally is just perpetuating poor fertility or spreading genetic defects. But that's a completely different rabbit hole I'll avoid going down as it doesn't really pertain to the topic.

But, no, there's zero need or right to fertility treatments especially in the middle of a pandemic.
 
PippyPony said:
This... I do disagree with, in part. This is America, and the right to reproduce is recognized by the Supreme Court as fundamental. Fertility treatments for women my age sometimes cannot wait a few months, and categorically denying access to those services could potentially be interpreted as depriving people of one of their essential freedoms as outlined by the constitution.

Whether or not someone should seek out those treatments right now from a moral and ethical perspective... that's a totally different story and opens up about 6 other cans of worms (what if covid is transmissible in utero and linked to birth defects, like Zika is? etc).

And the question of whether IVF etc is a responsible path to pursue when there are so many children in need across the world isn't restricted to the current situation -- although the scarcity of medical equipment is throwing it into higher relief right now.

A clinic at Yale just started to refuse fertility treatments to their patients, and tbh I will be surprised if they/similar providers don't get slapped with a lawsuit at some point. (Although fwiw, I happen to think the healthcare provider would win that case based off of historical precedent.)

Your friend's surgery sounds necessary to me (I'm sorry for them 🙁 ) and so do chemo treatments. Our hospital at school is continuing oncology services for pets, and I am glad they are.
Click to expand...

Also they won't get slapped with a lawsuit. The board that oversees gynecology/fertility/reproduction had told its members to stop performing fertility treatments at this time. So the direction to stop is coming from the higher medical authority but certain clinics are refusing to listen. And others are petitioning against the directive which is just damn stupid when dead bodies are piling up.
 
As long as healthcare is privatized in America, fertility treatments will always be more of a privilege than a right. It’s typically the more well to do that can afford them.

Which even *if* it was affordable for the masses, it’s still uncool as heck to consider one during a deadly pandemic. Especially one that is disproportionately affecting vulnerable populations across the board. Smacks of “let them eat cake” attitude honestly.
 
It's so so so hard to have to comfort clients about losing a pet over the phone. 🙁 Not the kind of case I was looking forward to having this morning and the fact that it was an emergency and had very rapid changes in patient status made it so much harder
 
Elkhart said:
This is part of the reason I was hesitant to comment at all on the vet med side of things, because I'm not in the field anymore and frankly I know people don't care about my opinion as a consequence of that (which is cool and I get it). I also didn't want to step on your guys' toes because I know you're all going through major **** fiscally and emotionally right now, too, and I wasn't wanting to minimize it inadvertently.
Click to expand...

Wrong! If people don’t respect your opinion just because you’re no longer in the field, they are f@&$ing doofuses. You bring a unique and nuanced perspective, so don’t let some wannabe vet ever tell you otherwise.
 
itsrocky said:
As long as healthcare is privatized in America, fertility treatments will always be more of a privilege than a right. It’s typically the more well to do that can afford them.

Which even *if* it was affordable for the masses, it’s still uncool as heck to consider one during a deadly pandemic. Especially one that is disproportionately affecting vulnerable populations across the board. Smacks of “let them eat cake” attitude honestly.
Click to expand...
This is incredibly hurtful. I hope you never have fertility issues.
 
genny said:
This is incredibly hurtful. I hope you never have fertility issues.
Click to expand...

I'll never know because I refuse to spread the current autoimmune issues that are rampant in my family to someone else. I think it would be selfish of me to bring a child into the world knowing they'll suffer physically. And because of that physical suffering they'll suffer emotionally as well.
 
genny said:
This is incredibly hurtful. I hope you never have fertility issues.
Click to expand...
I don't think rocky was saying everyone shouldn't be able to have access to fertility treatments? Just that the way healthcare is in America, it's not something most people can afford or have access to. Which does make it more a privledge than a right here. It's awful and it should be something everyone has the option for if needed, but doesn't change how that aspect of healthcare is currently is.
 
genny said:
This is incredibly hurtful. I hope you never have fertility issues.
Click to expand...

I'm confused to which part of that post was hurtful? She's not incorrect in that currently fertility treatments are really only for the wealthy. It is like $20-30k per round. Not something the not well to do can afford.

And now isn't the time to be getting pregnant. Whether via fertility treatments OR naturally. I'll heavily judge the for sure baby boom in 9 months regardless of how those were conceived. It just shows humans complete lack of awareness, planning, or thought before making an impulse jump to have what you want. And ultimately children are the one who do suffer.
 
DVMDream said:
And now isn't the time to be getting pregnant. Whether via fertility treatments OR naturally. I'll heavily judge the for sure baby boom in 9 months regardless of how those were conceived. It just shows humans complete lack of awareness, planning, or thought before making an impulse jump to have what you want. And ultimately children are the one who do suffer.
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Thanks, I'll be sure to check in with you the next time I make a decision about what happens with my own body and my family. 🙄
 
PippyPony said:
Thanks, I'll be sure to check in with you the next time I make a decision about what happens with my own body and my family. 🙄
Click to expand...

Having an opinion that someone starting a family now during a pandemic is wrong =/= stating that people have to have my approval. It is just that an opinion. It isn't only my opinion either, but the opinion of numerous medical experts who are warning against conceiving given that we do not know how this virus will have an affect on a developing baby. If people want to gamble with their child's life while with a deadly virus floating about, that is on them, but not going to have much sympathy when they are going directly against medical recommendations.

Same as I don't have much sympathy for those that skip vaccinating their kids and then the kid gets a preventable illness. I feel bad for the kid, yes. But the parent, no so much.

Harsh opinion, yup, but I am not the only one out there with the same opinion.
 
What about people who accidentally conceive right now? That we’re using BC but had a failure, and chose to keep the pregnancy? Or people who would want to abort but don’t have access to that right now? Or who became pregnant in the early days of COVID-19 before people realized the entire freaking world was going to be shut down? Or who were already started on their IVF cycle before and had to chose to either finish the cycle or waste tens of thousands of dollars and hope they can save up enough again in a few years to go through another cycle? Or god forbid someone who conceived due to rape?

It’s one thing to think people intentionally starting a family right now aren’t looking at the bigger picture, it’s another to say anyone having kids in the next 9 months or so are showing a clear lack of awareness or planning. That’s a pretty sweeping generalization and making a lot of assumptions about people you don’t know and have no idea about the circumstances surrounding their child.
 
Caiter92 said:
What about people who accidentally conceive right now? That we’re using BC but had a failure, and chose to keep the pregnancy? Or people who would want to abort but don’t have access to that right now? Or who became pregnant in the early days of COVID-19 before people realized the entire freaking world was going to be shut down? Or who were already started on their IVF cycle before and had to chose to either finish the cycle or waste tens of thousands of dollars and hope they can save up enough again in a few years to go through another cycle? Or god forbid someone who conceived due to rape?

It’s one thing to think people intentionally starting a family right now aren’t looking at the bigger picture, it’s another to say anyone having kids in the next 9 months or so are showing a clear lack of awareness or planning. That’s a pretty sweeping generalization and making a lot of assumptions about people you don’t know and have no idea about the circumstances surrounding their child.
Click to expand...

Please assume in any of my posts that there will always be exceptions to the larger group as a whole. If I'm seriously going to have to list out every damn exception to everything I post, we're going to be here a damn long time.

I don't have time for that. No one does.

I shouldn't have to input exceptions to everything. Just like if I say cosmetic surgery...I mean cosmetic surgery, not reconstructive surgery.

Yes, there will be exceptions to every larger group but I'm not spending time listing them all. I'm a big girl who understands the world isn't 100% perfect and there will be scenarios in which things happen, this should be assumed in really all posts anyone makes.
 
Caiter92 said:
What about people who accidentally conceive right now? That we’re using BC but had a failure, and chose to keep the pregnancy? Or people who would want to abort but don’t have access to that right now? Or who became pregnant in the early days of COVID-19 before people realized the entire freaking world was going to be shut down? Or who were already started on their IVF cycle before and had to chose to either finish the cycle or waste tens of thousands of dollars and hope they can save up enough again in a few years to go through another cycle? Or god forbid someone who conceived due to rape?

It’s one thing to think people intentionally starting a family right now aren’t looking at the bigger picture, it’s another to say anyone having kids in the next 9 months or so are showing a clear lack of awareness or planning. That’s a pretty sweeping generalization and making a lot of assumptions about people you don’t know and have no idea about the circumstances surrounding their child.
Click to expand...

my thoughts arent directed at these people. No one conceiving even just 2 months ago could have possibly known what was about to happen.
 
Caiter92 said:
I don't think rocky was saying everyone shouldn't be able to have access to fertility treatments? Just that the way healthcare is in America, it's not something most people can afford or have access to. Which does make it more a privledge than a right here. It's awful and it should be something everyone has the option for if needed, but doesn't change how that aspect of healthcare is currently is.
Click to expand...

oh and yeah this is what I was getting at. Thank you. Definitely wasn’t aiming to be hurtful, and I apologize for hurt I caused. I do think, on a larger scale, anyone who wants to access these things should be able to, but it would be cool to think twice in our current climate. I realize I ultimately don’t know every individual scenario.
 
Elkhart said:
never mind
Click to expand...

Hi just know I’m cool with you speaking up at literally anytime. Not only are your opinions incredibly valuable I just genuinely enjoy you chiming I’m at any time. That is all.
 
itsrocky said:
my thoughts arent directed at these people. No one conceiving even just 2 months ago could have possibly known what was about to happen.
Click to expand...
There was suppose to be a quote from DVMD at the beginning of that, whoops.
 
DVMDream said:
Yeah, you'll never convince me that people have a need for fertility treatments. Ever.
Click to expand...
Good to know you dont think LGBT families deserve to attempt to have kids ever. Even if living in a state or country that allows faith based foster and adoption agencies to refuse to work with us.
 
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