Sinai vs. Cornell

[aaj117]

You're going to get a great education no matter which one you go to. Both are prestigious-- i mean cornell has the ivy name, but they're ranked like 16 and 18 right now, not a significant difference at all. I go to Sinai and my best friend and college roommate goes to cornell, and we debate about the schools a ton, but i think the most important thing is your personal fit. Where you liked the people more, where you felt more comfortable. If you're a competitive person who will strive to do better just because of the honors, or if you're a self-motivated person who likes to personalize your schedule more (watch lectures on video if you can't make class, study which things you're most interested and make sure you get by in everything else) like Sinai's pass/fail system. I do personally think the opportunities for community service are much better here because of the location and the patient populations.

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[fred213]

At Cornell revisit they mentioned that the curriculum will likely become pass/fail next year. I wonder if that will convince people to lean towards Cornell now. I really like the pass/fail and testing system at Sinai since it provides some flexibility to do research and community service, but I am more attracted to the type of research being done at Cornell. I still can't decide but I'm looking forward to Sinai revisit!

important to note that alongside the pass/fail change they are also implementing a more fine-grained ranking system that will be tougher on the majority of students than the quartile system that i believe they have now.

 

[pelliper]

important to note that alongside the pass/fail change they are also implementing a more fine-grained ranking system that will be tougher on the majority of students than the quartile system that i believe they have now.

are you serious about this? ranked pass/fail sucks big time. in fact i'd rather have unranked H/P/F than ranked P/F

 

[mdeast]

are you serious about this? ranked pass/fail sucks big time. in fact i'd rather have unranked H/P/F than ranked P/F

I didn't even know medical schools had class rank. Is this true? That's kind of a major difference in competitive atmosphere if that's true.

 

[jbz24]

I didn't even know medical schools had class rank. Is this true? That's kind of a major difference in competitive atmosphere if that's true.

Yeah some schools internally rank their students even if they say it's P/F. Schools that have junior AOA typically rank their students even if they say they don't because AOA is at least partially based on grades. Sinai only has senior AOA and is a true P/F for preclinical years.

During third year, though, most medical schools have grades and class rank (except for maybe UCLA and CCLCM). It's generally pretty standard that your class rank is a quartile or quintile (top 1/4, bottom 1/4, etc.) and this shows up on your MSPE, which is basically a compilation of your academic achievement during third year with comments from clerkship directors about how you performed during rotations. Your MSPE is sent out to every program you applied to for residency. Personally, I would prefer a system with no grades, but I believe schools are phasing it out (when I applied to med school, Yale had no grades all 4 years, but I believe now they switched to a graded third year). I guess it's because residency directors want to be able to distinguish you from your peers and have a difficult time with an ungraded third year.

 

[pelliper]

what is the breakdown of how grades are determined third year at sinai? like what % is shelf exams, residency director opinion, etc.? also, what is the grading/ranking system for 3rd and 4th year at sinai? just curious

 

[jbz24]

what is the breakdown of how grades are determined third year at sinai? like what % is shelf exams, residency director opinion, etc.? also, what is the grading/ranking system for 3rd and 4th year at sinai? just curious

Grading system during third year is H/HP/P/F. The breakdown of how you are graded is different for each clerkship. The shelf counts anywhere from 5% (surgery) to 20% (medicine). For most rotations, evaluations from your team (resident, intern, sometimes attending) counts for 50% or so. Also, most rotations have preceptor meetings where you meet once a week with a few other students and an attending and you go over cases you had on the wards - that counts another 10 to 20%. Some rotations have an oral exam where you talk through a case to an attending (surgery and peds) or an additional written exam that's short answer but not multiple choice (medicine) - these are generally very easy. Lastly some rotations have an observed history and physical that either counts for some of your grade (psych) or is just P/F (medicine). I think that should be about everything that you can be graded on during third year. None of it is graded by the clerkship director - he/she just compiles the evaluations from everyone else. Fourth year doesn't really count, except for your sub Is, and most people honor those.

 

[Gifted Hands]

important to note that alongside the pass/fail change they are also implementing a more fine-grained ranking system that will be tougher on the majority of students than the quartile system that i believe they have now.

where did you hear this? Can anyone at Cornell verify this?

 

[pelliper]

can somebody post a cornell match list from 09 or 10? thanks

 

[exeunt]

where did you hear this? Can anyone at Cornell verify this?

seconded!

 

[jbz24]

can somebody post a cornell match list from 09 or 10? thanks

http://library.med.cornell.edu/PDF/matchlist10.pdf

 

[loljkttyl]

interestingly, there are ~6 names on that cornell match list where students matched into prelim programs only w/o any associated advanced residency programs...does this mean they did not match...or are these typos?

 

[jbz24]

interestingly, there are ~6 names on that cornell match list where students matched into prelim programs only w/o any associated advanced residency programs...does this mean they did not match...or are these typos?

Unmatched I think. I asked in Pre-Allo where it was posted and no one said anything.

 

[BlueElmo]

The vote seems evenly matched.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Unmatched I think. I asked in Pre-Allo where it was posted and no one said anything.

Yeah it generally means unmatched when its just a prelim program.

 

[topsurgeon2010]

cornell seems to get a lot of crap from SDNers..just seems like cornell is doing something to piss off SDNers and its students..ive heard multiple SDNers withdrawing post interview from cornell without even waiting for a decision because of their experience on interview day..and should read the older posts on the current cornell thread by CURRENT cornell medical students..the stuff they say about their school is not pretty..wonder whats up with the cornell administration...i would definitely talk to multiple current cornell students to see if they are in fact happy at their school..mt. sinai and cornell are way too similar in ranking so go where you will be happy

 

[mdeast]

cornell seems to get a lot of crap from SDNers..just seems like cornell is doing something to piss off SDNers and its students..ive heard multiple SDNers withdrawing post interview from cornell without even waiting for a decision because of their experience on interview day..and should read the older posts on the current cornell thread by CURRENT cornell medical students..the stuff they say about their school is not pretty..wonder whats up with the cornell administration...i would definitely talk to multiple current cornell students to see if they are in fact happy at their school..mt. sinai and cornell are way too similar in ranking so go where you will be happy

This is just blatantly not true. Cornell is a different place than Sinai, but it's not bad or hated in any way. We're talking about a Top 20 medical school here. There were things that I was weary of about Cornell on my interview day (maybe competitiveness?), but I still did really like it there.

I love Sinai too...but I do think that at least MOST students are happy at Cornell.

 

[jbz24]

Every school will have people who didn't enjoy their experience there or think it could be better. Sometimes you have to take third/fourth years at any school with a grain of salt because going from second to third year is such a huge transformation and can be brutal on anyone no matter where they are. However, they still are the best people to convey their thoughts about their school (as opposed to first or second years).

But again, my stance is that Sinai and Cornell are such different types of schools that one should just go where they have the best fit at. The curricula are very different (PBL vs. lecture), hospital atmosphere is very different (private hospital/specialization vs. community/underprivileged), different research strengths (heme/onc vs. gi/cards). Both are reputable, ranked similarly, so go where you're more comfortable.

 

[Gifted Hands]

This is just blatantly not true. Cornell is a different place than Sinai, but it's not bad or hated in any way. We're talking about a Top 20 medical school here. There were things that I was weary of about Cornell on my interview day (maybe competitiveness?), but I still did really like it there.

I love Sinai too...but I do think that at least MOST students are happy at Cornell.

I have a lot of friends that ended up in NYC med schools, both Cornell and Mt Sinai. Most are happy with their choices. At the end of the day, you are so focused on work and the day-to-day that the stuff we are nitpicking on this thread really doesn't matter. But it's a lie to say Cornell students are unhappy, at least not the ones I met. In fact I was really impressed with how often they go out, even on weekends before exams. The exact opposite of what I would have expected from a school with Honors.

Every school will have people who didn't enjoy their experience there or think it could be better. Sometimes you have to take third/fourth years at any school with a grain of salt because going from second to third year is such a huge transformation and can be brutal on anyone no matter where they are. However, they still are the best people to convey their thoughts about their school (as opposed to first or second years).

But again, my stance is that Sinai and Cornell are such different types of schools that one should just go where they have the best fit at. The curricula are very different (PBL vs. lecture), hospital atmosphere is very different (private hospital/specialization vs. community/underprivileged), different research strengths (heme/onc vs. gi/cards). Both are reputable, ranked similarly, so go where you're more comfortable.

when in doubt, follow the money. You really can't go wrong either way. It's medical school, you are going to be a doctor.

 

[topsurgeon2010]

This is just blatantly not true. Cornell is a different place than Sinai, but it's not bad or hated in any way. We're talking about a Top 20 medical school here. There were things that I was weary of about Cornell on my interview day (maybe competitiveness?), but I still did really like it there.

I love Sinai too...but I do think that at least MOST students are happy at Cornell.

i didnt mean to say it was hated by the general public or all Cornell students thats why i specifically said only on SDN, which really should not be used to make such an important life decision..but if i remember correctly there were some current Weill Cornell med school students posting on the current 2009-2010 Cornell thread totally bashing their own school..am too lazy to go through that thread but there are some negative posts in that thread...having said that everyone has complaints about their schools and how they would like to see their school improve but their criticisms just seemed a bit extreme which is why I remembered them...im sure majority of the students at Cornell are very happy...but OP definitely talk to as many students as you can at both schools and see where you would fit the best and be the happiest..the cultures at both schools seem very different

EDIT: here you go..was bored so found it..clearly this is only one person's opinion so definitely do your own due diligence instead of basing your decision on some random SDNer (which also includes me):

Hi People,
I'm a 4th year, and I am procrastinating. I thought I'd give a quick rundown of random thoughts that come to mind about Cornell. It's interesting first of all that a real minority of our class goes to admission lunches. Please take what you hear w a grain of salt as usually these are folks who looooove the school, or at least want a free lunch!
Cornell is a great name. The school is very interested in propelling its name forward, and Sandy Weill is a huge part of that. Dean Gotto is not necessarily terribly interested in students. Dean Storey-Johnson keeps things fairly shrouded in secrecy. Our school is a money-making, reputation-making machine and students are not a priority. Why? Well, I think that good people generally end up coming here to get their MDs, and these are people who would do well anywhere. I thought PBL would be the best thing ever before I came here. Instead, it's endless presentations about things you often don't give 2 ****s about. Most of my classmates were not excited about PBL, esp the fact that it's at 8am. We would in retrospect much prefer lecture bc at least you can skip lecture and learn on your own.
The teaching is nothing to write home about. The sub-internship experience is good at Cornell. You get alot of responsibility. But the clerkships are fairly crappy. Lots of standing around. Getting ordered around by residents. Wondering when you can leave bc surely reading a book would be more efficient.

If you want to be a specialist, this is a good place. I am going to do primary care medicine. I am definitely a minority in this regard, and you will find this to be a cold place for it. I find it laughable that on 9-27 a poster said, " the curriculum is awesome for those interested in primary care." Actually, I thought primary care would be an alright avenue when I came. There's a "Primary Care Track" link on the webpage which I thought was totally rad -- that link is years old and has wrong information. It's total bull and should actually be taken down.
If you're really interested in primary care, fortify yourself before you come to Cornell and then leaveleaveleave for residency. Even better, go to a different school.

In general, the administration can be fairly unyielding in many matters; this school is rich as hell, and they just stopped shuttle service to our network hospitals which means students have to take the subway a pretty long ways. The student clinic is talked about and paraded around by the admin but it was actually shut down for a while last year due to lack of admin support. The clinical training here sucks pretty badly; most students I know do not have well-developed physical exam skills. They will show you the Clinical Skills Center, but there is still minimal usage of it. I believe they are ramping things up with it, but last I heard, they rent it out for big $$$ to all sorts of health training programs. Finally, the ethos in the hospital is one of specialists, specialists, specialists. You'll order tests, run around, and then wonder what the point is.

With that said, the students here are splendid people. There are some real gems on the faculty. The facilities are swanky, and the dorms are just fine. There are good connections to Tanzania, and it's quite easy to go abroad 4th year. NYC is and will remain a draw for people. And the name won't hurt you too much.

 

[pelliper]

can anyone explain why cornell has 6 unmatched? i just looked at the sinai list and despite having 40% more students it seems like all the sinai students matched somewhere or are doing a research/masters year. 6 unmatched seems awfully high especially for a class of 101...that is basically 5% of the class

 

[topsurgeon2010]

can anyone explain why cornell has 6 unmatched? i just looked at the sinai list and despite having 40% more students it seems like all the sinai students matched somewhere or are doing a research/masters year. 6 unmatched seems awfully high especially for a class of 101...that is basically 5% of the class

ehh could be for many reasons...maybe they applied to highly selective residencies (like neurosurgery or derm) and didn't get in anywhere which isn't unusual for those top residencies because they're so competitive..or they got cocky and only ranked a few desirable hospitals out of all the programs they interviewed at...or maybe they didn't do too well on the USMLE...it could be any reason really

also doing a research/masters year is usually a back-up for people who haven't matched or need to strengthen their application before going through the match...not always but definitely a viable option for people who don't think they can match so take that with a grain of salt

 

[dw2158]

i didnt mean to say it was hated by the general public or all Cornell students thats why i specifically said only on SDN, which really should not be used to make such an important life decision..but if i remember correctly there were some current Weill Cornell med school students posting on the current 2009-2010 Cornell thread totally smashing their own school..am too lazy to go through that thread but there are some negative posts in that thread...having said that everyone has complaints about their schools and how they would like to see their school improve but their criticisms just seemed a bit extreme which is why I remembered them...im sure majority of the students at Cornell are very happy...but OP definitely talk to as many students as you can at both schools and see where you would fit the best and be the happiest..the cultures at both schools seem very different

here you go..was bored so found it..clearly this is only one person's opinion so definitely do your own due diligence instead of basing your decision on some random SDNer (which also includes me):

thanks for posting this. gives some balance to what DrLyss was posting about cornell. personally, my experience with cornell made me feel it was more similar to what you're describing, so it's good to have some validation of that

 

[mdeast]

dw, did you go to cornell second look?

 

[jbz24]

can anyone explain why cornell has 6 unmatched? i just looked at the sinai list and despite having 40% more students it seems like all the sinai students matched somewhere or are doing a research/masters year. 6 unmatched seems awfully high especially for a class of 101...that is basically 5% of the class

Those on Sinai's list who are doing a research year or masters decided early 4th year and before the match to do so. We had a 100% match rate this year.

As mentioned above, Cornell's unmatched is probably a combination of applying to competitive residencies even though being a less competitive applicant, being cocky and ranking only top programs, and poor advising.

 

[dw2158]

dw, did you go to cornell second look?

nope. was 99% sure i didn't want to go there by about february.

 

[dw2158]

Those on Sinai's list who are doing a research year or masters decided early 4th year and before the match to do so. We had a 100% match rate this year.

As mentioned above, Cornell's unmatched is probably a combination of applying to competitive residencies even though being a less competitive applicant, being cocky and ranking only top programs, and poor advising.

do you know anyway who has pursued an MPH at sinai? just curious about how often it's done in 4 vs 5 years. also curious about whether i have to decide if i want to do it before matriculating.

 

[jbz24]

do you know anyway who has pursued an MPH at sinai? just curious about how often it's done in 4 vs 5 years. also curious about whether i have to decide if i want to do it before matriculating.

Yeah, plenty of people have pursued MD/MPH. I can't give an exact (or even a rough) number for those who've done it in 4 years vs. 5 years, but friends of mine have done it both of those ways. I also know people who've decided to do away MPH years with no problem. I don't believe you need to decide before matriculating.

http://www.mssm.edu/education/gradu...s/mph-program/curriculum/dual-degree-programs

 

[Question123]

So I'm a clutz, and either way,ended up in a random clinic in vt recently while supposedly hiking... that being said, while there the doctor I saw immediately saw my job and got talking about NY hospitals/programs and I told him I'm applying to med school and turns out he went to med school in NYC and was also torn during his time deciding between Mount Sinai and Cornell. Yes, I said this was random. He's obviously practicing but didn't seem to be too far out of the system, but take everything w/ a grain of salt.

He ended up choosing Cornell and loved it. He went into family practice (obviously he's in random clinic in vt) and loves it too. He acknowledged that for him, he could've gone into family practice at Mount Sinai and probably had the same end result, but he knew that he wasn't 100% sure what he wanted to do, so he chose Cornell b/c it would present more options. He obviously seems to have no regrets, and said that had he wanted to specialized in something more intense, he thinks Cornell would've been a slight leg up. That being said, he emphasized you cannot go wrong w/ either.

I am only telling this story b/c I think Cornell gets a bad rap for primary care, but there are clearly primary care docs that come out of it and love it. Maybe I'm playing Devil's advocate b/c I'm personally leaning toward sinai (more b/c I don't care enough one way or another to justify the cost difference and I'm only waitlisted at Cornell), but I thought it would be valuable to post the perspective of someone who has gone through med school and look back (rather than 1st year or 4th year that maybe over-enthused and/or jaded).

Btw, he stitched me up beautifully, so I think Cornell has taught him basic skills quite nicely

 

[dw2158]

So I'm a clutz, and either way,ended up in a random clinic in vt recently while supposedly hiking... that being said, while there the doctor I saw immediately saw my job and got talking about NY hospitals/programs and I told him I'm applying to med school and turns out he went to med school in NYC and was also torn during his time deciding between Mount Sinai and Cornell. Yes, I said this was random. He's obviously practicing but didn't seem to be too far out of the system, but take everything w/ a grain of salt.

He ended up choosing Cornell and loved it. He went into family practice (obviously he's in random clinic in vt) and loves it too. He acknowledged that for him, he could've gone into family practice at Mount Sinai and probably had the same end result, but he knew that he wasn't 100% sure what he wanted to do, so he chose Cornell b/c it would present more options. He obviously seems to have no regrets, and said that had he wanted to specialized in something more intense, he thinks Cornell would've been a slight leg up. That being said, he emphasized you cannot go wrong w/ either.

I am only telling this story b/c I think Cornell gets a bad rap for primary care, but there are clearly primary care docs that come out of it and love it. Maybe I'm playing Devil's advocate b/c I'm personally leaning toward sinai (more b/c I don't care enough one way or another to justify the cost difference and I'm only waitlisted at Cornell), but I thought it would be valuable to post the perspective of someone who has gone through med school and look back (rather than 1st year or 4th year that maybe over-enthused and/or jaded).

Btw, he stitched me up beautifully, so I think Cornell has taught him basic skills quite nicely

good story how old was this doctor? not that i wouldn't trust his advice, but things can certainly change over a decade or two.

oh and i'd like to add that i think family medicine is probably not a particular strength at any of the NYC schools. not saying it's weak, but i think they're all known for other things.

 

[jbz24]

good story how old was this doctor? not that i wouldn't trust his advice, but things can certainly change over a decade or two.

oh and i'd like to add that i think family medicine is probably not a particular strength at any of the NYC schools. not saying it's weak, but i think they're all known for other things.

I was just about to say this. Actually, if any of you are interested in family medicine, I would recommend not going to any NYC school, with the exception of maybe Einstein. I would say NYC is weak in this area. There is a dearth of residency positions in family medicine in NYC, and this trickles down to even less of a good family medicine education. Now, for the other primary care fields (internal medicine or pediatrics with no specialization), NYC is good, but family medicine is just not a common thing in NYC.

 

[Question123]

He was young...maybe early 30s? I met his daughter who was 2...not that that says much anymore, but he seemed pretty recently done w/ residency.

 

[Question123]

I was just about to say this. Actually, if any of you are interested in family medicine, I would recommend not going to any NYC school, with the exception of maybe Einstein. I would say NYC is weak in this area. There is a dearth of residency positions in family medicine in NYC, and this trickles down to even less of a good family medicine education. Now, for the other primary care fields (internal medicine or pediatrics with no specialization), NYC is good, but family medicine is just not a common thing in NYC.

I agree, I guess it was just a story... I don't want to go into family medicine (though seeing his clinic it did seem appealing...), but I thought I'd tell it b/c it seemed somewhat relevant. Or maybe I'm just bored on a friday in a cubicle...

 

[jbz24]

I agree, I guess it was just a story... I don't want to go into family medicine (though seeing his clinic it did seem appealing...), but I thought I'd tell it b/c it seemed somewhat relevant. Or maybe I'm just bored on a friday in a cubicle...

No, it was a good story My comments weren't directed towards your story just family medicine in general in NYC.

 

[dw2158]

I agree, I guess it was just a story... I don't want to go into family medicine (though seeing his clinic it did seem appealing...), but I thought I'd tell it b/c it seemed somewhat relevant. Or maybe I'm just bored on a friday in a cubicle...

i appreciated the story as well... if for no other reason than it demonstrates that we can all pretty much enjoy whatever school we end up at, and go into whatever specialty we want as long as we work hard. i mean, i've said i knew pretty early that i "didn't want to go to cornell" but even i can recognize i would have been totally fine there.

 

[Xoyes]

Can any of the current students speak to the clinical training at either of these schools, and how colleagues view doctors who train from either school? Any strengths or weaknesses in particular areas of clinical training?

 

[loljkttyl]

Can any of the current students speak to the clinical training at either of these schools, and how colleagues view doctors who train from either school? Any strengths or weaknesses in particular areas of clinical training?

Clinical training at Sinai is great. You meet your first "patient" during your orientation week. You get free top-of-the-line cardiology stethoscopes at your White Coat Ceremony. You start off with an Intro to Emergency Medicine class during your first few weeks. You get ample early clinical exposure from the Art and Science of Medicine course (and you can watch the Bates videos online which they post on Web-Ed to reinforce physical exam skills), EHHOP free clinic, human simulators (for cardiac/pulmonary/trauma as 1st/2nd yrs, for delivering babies as 3rd yrs, and for practicing codes/unstable patients in Emergency Medicine and Intro to Internship as 4th yrs), and standardized patients at the Morchand Center (as seen on Seinfeld). Our Art and Science professor was very nice, and he invited us for dinner at his apartment at the conclusion of the rotation. Sinai has tons of community service opportunities...it was recently awarded the Spencer Foreman Community Service Award...only awarded to ONE institution per year. Sinai has a unique Visiting Doctors Program where you tag along with doctors when they visit and treat patients in their OWN homes. EHHOP is great for practicing venipuncture and improving your Spanish speaking skills. You have excellent role models to learn from...one of the directors was recently awarded the AAMC Humanism in Medicine award (only awarded to ONE physician per year!). As a second year, you have the opportunity to be a CLINIC MANAGER of the free clinic...as a SECOND YEAR! As a third year, you get a nice balance of cases at your clinical sites. Sinai has more advanced patients with multiple comorbities...HIV, leukemias, cancers, inflammatory bowel disease (Crohn's disease was discovered at Sinai), etc. Also, it's nice to roll out of bed and just walk across the street to get to work. Elmhurst has interesting infectious diseases (TB, parasites, etc.) and exciting trauma and they let med students do a lot of cool procedures and deliver lots of babies. The VA hospital has more bread and butter cases...CHF, COPD exacerbation, pneumonia, etc...and they have an awesome computer system with electronic notes which make it easier to do your daily progress notes. The brand new Martha Stewart Center is so pretty to look at (looks like a museum/art gallery) and gives you a great introduction to geriatrics (Sinai was the first med school to establish a department of geriatrics). During geriatrics, you also get to go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art for free and get a private guided tour of selected pieces of art/sculpture to hone your observational skills (as featured in a NY Times article). As a fourth year, you can take electives that take advantage of Sinai's strengths, including cardiology (Sinai has the best angioplasty success rates in NYC), IR (Sinai has the best IR program in NYC!), rad onc (work with the same doctor who treated NYC Mayor Guiliani's prostate cancer!), or urology (robotic surgery is cool!). You don't need a car for anything. Everything is accessible via public transportation or they provide you with shuttle service or sometimes even private car service! Many students also choose to go on medical and surgical missions which allow you to hone your clinical skills under the supervision of experienced attendings. Also, I hear there is a liver transplant team where they fly you around to help procure organs. Other clubs/organizations offer opportunities to get involved with glaucoma screenings, hepatitis B screenings, or skin cancer screenings. As for weakness, there are very few, but if I had to name one I would say students who did less rotations at Elmhurst wish they had more experience doing procedures. However, this is more dependent on how proactive you are. A number of my classmates have done intern level procedures, including placing central lines, doing lumbar punctures, paracentesis, and assisting with IR procedures...one even removed a gallbladder by himself under attending supervision!!!

 

[relex333]

Any thoughts?

I too am struggling with this decision. I found Sinai to be much more student-centric: Dean Muller (dean of the med school) even came to chat with us and allay our anxieties at the interview. Sinai’s approach to grades also seems to generate a more relaxed environment (P/f), with an emphasis on self-guided study (exams that are taken whenever and wherever you’d like).

Cornell has PBL components, which I’m drawn to, but some students have said that PBL actually plays a very small role and isn’t incorporated as well as at other schools. Cornell’s H/P/F inherently adds an extra level of competition as it allows students to further differentiate themselves from their peers. One of the deans said the grading scale might change by the time our year graduates. Sinai even has an entire office devoted to finding students awesome deals for having fun in NYC and they pay for any lunches you’d like to have with professors!

What I really like about Sinai is the infusion of clinical/biomedical research. Ranked 3rd by the NIH in terms of funding/faculty member and there is no undergraduate campus/other graduate programs to siphon away the research funding. For us this should translate into oodles of more research opportunities in fields that interest us.

Sinai is really pushing forward with their new Portal program, a 5yr long combined MD-Masters in Clinical Research, which incorporates classes on bioinformatics, clinical trial design, grant writing and others into the traditional curriculum. The 5th year is wholly devoted to research, but unlike other institutions you receive a pretty sizable stipend + the Masters in Clinical Research is free. Cornell offers an honors of research distinction, which seems to acknowledge research efforts more than provide opportunities. Cornell and NYP are huge names with many awesome affiliates for research, but some Cornell med students have said that the focus of Cornell is centered on propagating the prestige, not exactly on the students themselves. It seemed like students were treated more as guests than med students and that the administrative support leaves much to be desired. I certainly can’t imagine that it’s all that bad.

There were just some of the thoughts that came up while I was pondering this decision. Does anyone else have any insights to share about these 2 awesome schools?

 

[Question123]

Relex, curious what you chose? I think I'm going Mount Sinai (98% sure),but curious how Cornell comes through w/ finaid...I doubt I'll see any $, but I've learned to always wait before I claim anything...

 

[NYankees]

i didnt mean to say it was hated by the general public or all Cornell students thats why i specifically said only on SDN, which really should not be used to make such an important life decision..but if i remember correctly there were some current Weill Cornell med school students posting on the current 2009-2010 Cornell thread totally bashing their own school..am too lazy to go through that thread but there are some negative posts in that thread...having said that everyone has complaints about their schools and how they would like to see their school improve but their criticisms just seemed a bit extreme which is why I remembered them...im sure majority of the students at Cornell are very happy...but OP definitely talk to as many students as you can at both schools and see where you would fit the best and be the happiest..the cultures at both schools seem very different

EDIT: here you go..was bored so found it..clearly this is only one person's opinion so definitely do your own due diligence instead of basing your decision on some random SDNer (which also includes me):

Are you referring to this thread? http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=251985 . I posted some interesting excerpts below. It turns out the students were trying to remain anonymous by not mentioning their schools name but after a while they realized they were stating similar issues and as it turns out that they were from the same school---Cornell.

But hope you realized those posts are from a few years back so hopefully the administration has addressed some of these issues by now--and if they haven't then Cornell students should REALLY start putting more pressure on their administration, no classes on pharmacology or microbiology?!? come on thats ridiculous--maybe a current student can chime in. Having said that, I withdrew from Mt. Sinai and Cornell last week, but I personally thought Mt. Sinai would have been a better fit for me personally than Cornell. The facilities were not as nice as Cornells, which were brand-spanking new, but the students seemed much more outgoing, they were less stressed out and the school was by far more student-centric at Mt. Sinai. But honestly from my LIMITED experience at interviews, both schools seemed great and are more about personal fit than anything else.

I don't hate my med school, and I certainly had a good time here. But now that I'm a fourth year and I'm looking back, there are definitely things I would have changed about my medical education.

A lot of these things are aspects of medical schools that I thought were positives when I applied. For example, I chose a school with PBL because I liked the concept as it was presented, but I found that droning on and on about the minutiae of some uncommon disorder is actually boring and not really an efficient use of time (which is what we often did in PBL). My school is also one that "does not teach to the Boards." No, really, it doesn't; in fact, many of us are pretty unprepared for step 1 when we have to start studying for it. Many of us learn pharmacology and microbiology for the FIRST TIME when we study for step 1. My school is ranked highly, but that is just sad. Instead of all those pointless lectures with famous scientists talking about their oh-so-interesting research on the configuration of Protein 235JK9820, maybe we could have had a few more lessons on pharm, or on the genetic enzyme-deficiency disorders that most of us hadn't heard of until we read First Aid for Step 1. In the end I did fine on step 1, but I still feel like there was a ton of important information in the exam that I had not been taught in my first two years.

Also, pre-meds often think that "early clinical exposure" is a bonus, as I thought. My school brags that one day a week is spent working with physicians in their clinics. The truth is that you don't have a freaking clue what you are doing yet, so you end up just shadowing a physician, which is boring and utterly pointless. Before you actually learn a few things about medicine, you don't get much out of these experiences (and yet they take up a lot of time).

So I don't hate my school, but it does have a few areas to improve.

I believe we go to the same school... and I have the same exact complaints. I like it overall, especially now that we're into BOD and it's fairly interesting, but last year... man, that was boring and pretty useless - especially some of those PBL cases! Argh.

As for boards studying, i'm starting now, and yeah - i'm basically teaching myself pharm as we go, and trying to learn as much micro right now as possible before I start the actual boards prep period. It's... crazy. What are they thinking??

Quid

When I applied to med school, I thought, "Wow, PBL is awesome because you approach the problems just like a real physician would." But then I got to the wards... and no, the interactions and thought processes in PBL are most certainly not what occurs on the floors. Surprise, real physicians actually DON'T spend 3 hours discussing the cell signalling pathways involved in esophageal cancer. PBL at my school doesn't approximate how medicine is actually practiced at all.

This thread is great...
I think i agree with everyone on this board...I don't hate my school, but there's a ton of frustrating things to deal with - but after reading this thread, i realize that these frustrations are surprisingly universal.
So the things I hate about med school (specifically the MS2 year):

1) Famed Professor X gives his lecture on...say "thyroid disorders" - which he talks about for 5 minutes before delving into his "grounding breaking" research involving the thryroid receptor kinase phosphorylase promotor response element 2nd messenger that will aparently cure every disease known to man, for the next 90 minutes.

2)the Pre-clinical years "clinical skills" teaching. Like someone else said, when you're a starry eyed premed trying to pick a school, you want to go to a school that gives "clinical experience" in MS1 & MS2. I was this way. Now that i have it I realize its a waste of time - time that i need to be memorizing professor X's thyroid research for the F'ing exam. You seriously don't know **** as a first or second year med student, and allowing you to play doctor a few times a week only proves this. Great, I can do a complete H&P on a standardized patient or some poor soul that gets corned in the ER to act as my guinnea pig - I definately could've waited until 3rd year to learn that. I give tours at my school and the perspective applicants always ask about how much clinical experience you get in the 1st two years...I grit my teeth and answer.

3) My school barely teaches pharm or micro either...i feel like its going to be a huge hole to fill during my step 1 studying. Despite this, we have dozens of lectures on surgical therapies/techniques, EKG interpretation etc (all of which get forgotten shortly after the exam) and countless other things that aren't tested on the boards.

4) The daily feeling that all the work i do is valueless because i forget most of what i learn w/in a week after any given exam. We have a organ system based curriculum and in any given section, we're given a mountain of info to learn in a rediculously short period of time ...so we study countless hours a day and all night trying to cram it all in. But then we take the exam, may or may not do well, but either way move on and end up forgetting everything. It's very frustrating.

5) I hate this whole self study kick my school is on. What they do is cut out lectures and instead just assign the corresponding chapters in Harrison's for us to read. Harrison's is a bit much as a second year med school text...and if I'm teaching myself, what exactly is my $40K a year in tuition going to??

Wow...that was a bit like a therapy session...

Ok, I've sort of tried to remain semi-anonymous by not naming my medical school, but now that rank lists are in it doesn't really matter, so I'll reveal... the medical school we are talking about is Cornell.

I'm not exactly sure what the "complete opposite regarding PBL" at Cornell would be. There is this belief that Cornell is all PBL, but it isn't! PBL is 3 times a week, at the most, for an hour and a half in the morning. The rest of the time is spent in small group sessions (like regular small group sessions, NOT PBL) and in lecture. Lecture time is limited. So what is the complete opposite of this?

You know my opinion on PBL. I hated it. But it didn't take up a huge amount of my time - it took up more time than it was worth, certainly, but it still wasn't a huge amount of time overall. Because of this, I don't think that the fact that it has PBL should really make a difference in anyone's decision to go to Cornell or not. Many applicants are surprised when I say that - they somehow think that Cornell is an all PBL school.

Which other school are you considering? Like I said, don't let PBL be the deciding factor. Let other things, like living in NYC in cheap housing, be the deciding factor

PBL at Cornell is like this: On Monday you get in your small groups (about 10 students plus one physician preceptor) and you are given the beginning of a case. For example, you will all get a paper with information about a new patient to your office who is complaining of abdominal pain. Then you will spend the next hour and a half discussing this case. At the end of that time, you will all split up topics that you will present on Wednesday. You go home, look up your topic, research it, and make a short presentation with a 1-page handout. On Wednesday you will all present and then receive more parts to the case, like maybe some other lab values or physical exam findings. You will discuss again, then again choose more topics to research for Friday. You get the picture. Each week is a new case, and you discuss that one case for the whole week during your PBL time, which occurs Mon, Wed, Fri from 8-9:30am (for most courses).

That's PBL. You can read my opinion on this in my previous posts.

Small group sessions occur when you meet in your group of 10 students, but you aren't doing PBL. You might be going over histology, pathology, microbiology, any kind of problem sets that were assigned, etc. You might even go over cases. For example, when you are learning about pulmonary disease, you might have a small group session with a pulmonologist (each group will have its own attending). In this session, you will all read a paragraph about a case (maybe a patient with fever and cough) and then discuss the differential diagnosis, what tests you might order, and how to treat the problem. You will do 3 to 5 of these cases in an hour. It sounds very similar to PBL, doesn't it? The HUGE difference is that in these sessions, someone is leading them and ensuring that you don't go completely off track, as there is a time limit and you need to cover all of the cases. The pulmonologist, being an expert in the field, will quickly get you to the key information that you need to focus on. You cover a lot of useful information very quickly, and you remember it because you remember the cases. If you've read my earlier posts, you can see how different this is from PBL.