2009-2010 University of Utah Application Thread

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Not to beat a dead horse, but I've been talking to a few more people about the class size reduction issue and the 10 million figure is making less and less sense. When you do the math, that's saying that they need $125,000 of funding per student, per year in order to increase it back up to 102. They already have the infrastructure in place, why is it so costly to have a few more occupied seats in the lecture hall? The answer, it seems, was that the reduction was merely put in place as posturing to get more funding from the state, which didn't end up happening, and probably won't happen in the near future. So, if you're heart is set on Utah and you haven't received an acceptance letter already, your best bet right now is to lobby the dean to increase the class size. Thoughts?

I had this same thought. You would think that a lack of funding would cause them to want more students paying tuition with the same infrastructure. I, for one, would rather have +1 person in my anatomy group, etc, if it meant that 20 more people would be allowed to enroll at the school.
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but I've been talking to a few more people about the class size reduction issue and the 10 million figure is making less and less sense. When you do the math, that's saying that they need $125,000 of funding per student, per year in order to increase it back up to 102. They already have the infrastructure in place, why is it so costly to have a few more occupied seats in the lecture hall? The answer, it seems, was that the reduction was merely put in place as posturing to get more funding from the state, which didn't end up happening, and probably won't happen in the near future. So, if you're heart is set on Utah and you haven't received an acceptance letter already, your best bet right now is to lobby the dean to increase the class size. Thoughts?


I completely agree, it makes no sense. The increased cost supposedly comes from the time doctors take out of their schedule to spend with med students on rotation...I don't think its 10 million worth. I think you're right about it being posturing to the legislature...dissapointing. and unfortunately I doubt the Utah legislature will approve more funds...its a miracle there even is a university of utah.
 
I completely agree, it makes no sense. The increased cost supposedly comes from the time doctors take out of their schedule to spend with med students on rotation...I don't think its 10 million worth. I think you're right about it being posturing to the legislature...dissapointing. and unfortunately I doubt the Utah legislature will approve more funds...its a miracle there even is a university of utah.


Why is that?
 
I just feel like most utah legislators don't see higher education as a priority...or even a good idea. but I'm cynical
 
You guys are forgetting that the state subsidizes $20000 of all instate students tuition. That is why there is a large class reduction.
 
Any OOS MD/PhD applicants hear anything about interview invites yet?
 
Any cold hard stats on Utah's averages on Step 1 and Step 2?

Also, I heard (rumor machine) that Utah had 10 people scramble last match, meaning only 90% success rate that year (not 90% got one of their top three, only 90% matched at all). Anybody able to refute or verify that?
 
Also, I interview on Jan 7th. Anyone else interviewing from Lindon/Orem/Provo area want a ride or to carpool?
 
Any cold hard stats on Utah's averages on Step 1 and Step 2?

Also, I heard (rumor machine) that Utah had 10 people scramble last match, meaning only 90% success rate that year (not 90% got one of their top three, only 90% matched at all). Anybody able to refute or verify that?

It may have been much more than that who didn't match. It was heavily discussed on last year's thread starting here. Since the U doesn't officially release this data, few people probably know for sure.

The most recent Utah USMLE scores that you can find online (that I know of) are here.
 
It may have been much more than that who didn't match. It was heavily discussed on last year's thread starting here. Since the U doesn't officially release this data, few people probably know for sure.

The most recent Utah USMLE scores that you can find online (that I know of) are here.

Wicked. Thank you. I feel strongly cautioned about choosing the U after having researched this. I urge anyone with options to consider step 1 averages and match records where you have been accepted before making a final decision.

BYU, Weber State, or Utah State, start a med school in Salt Lake that admits by measurable criteria!
 
BYU, Weber State, or Utah State, start a med school in Salt Lake that admits by measurable criteria!


Oh man I couldn't agree more with this statement.
 
What do you mean by measurable criteria?
GPA and MCAT scores aren't exactly predictive of a good physician. They're not even good predictors of USMLE board scores...

You're absolutely right that GPA and MCAT scores alone aren't reliable indicators of one's potential to become an effective physician. However, I don't think that you can entirely rule out an association between the Univ. of Utah's below average MCAT and GPA for accepted students and their below average USMLE scores.

Personally, I agree with the complaints regarding the apparent lack of measurable criteria, but I think it extends beyond MCAT and GPA. When I interviewed, they told us that MCAT and GPA combined account for only 20% of an applicant's "total score," so none of us should be surprised when applicants with high stats are rejected in favor of those with lower than stats. It's the other 80% that baffles me. Based on their strict extracurricular requirements, I think it's safe to assume that these make up a big chunk of the 80%, with the remainder likely coming from the interview and letters of recommendation. Yet stories of individuals with amazing ECs (not to mention great GPAs and MCAT scores) being rejected while others with less impressive "whole" applications are accepted are all too common. I know plenty of these individuals from last year's app cycle. Based on their experiences, it does seem as though there is indeed a lack of measurable criteria that could at least give us an idea of our chances at an acceptance. We're at the mercy of the admissions committee...:xf:
 
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Wow! My computer froze up and somehow I ended up posting the same message ten times. Sorry people!
 
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Hello friends. I'm an Idaho resident, and I know Utah contracts to take eight students from Idaho into their program. I'm sure it's different with the class size cuts, but has anyone else from Idaho applied? Interviewed? Etc. Thanks.
 
Hello friends. I'm an Idaho resident, and I know Utah contracts to take eight students from Idaho into their program. I'm sure it's different with the class size cuts, but has anyone else from Idaho applied? Interviewed? Etc. Thanks.

Idaho keeps its eight spots because the contract agreement is unaffected by budget cuts. No, I'm not from Idaho, but just passing it along. I also disagree with criteria not being measurable. How many other schools have a checklist with specific hours in each category? This system was designed to be accountable and measurable because of a student audit years ago, after their "stellar" application was rejected. Beyond this it remains just as subjective as any other school in the country. No one is guaranteed these days, especially in a class of 82. If an applicant is at or below average in hours in a specific category, they will not score as highly in that area with the adcom as someone who has 100 hours shadowing, or 1000 hours patient care, etc. Utah has had the philosophy of "training doctors, not board-takers" for a long time, which contributes to their view of GPA/MCAT vs EC and looking for an overall applicant. The board scores and limited clinical experience are two reasons the curriculum is going through such an overhaul, but the measurable outcomes from these changes have yet to be seen. Read through the curriculum board's purpose statement where they outline both the advantages and shortcomings of the school and how they plan to address them. It is hard to get in to medical school and Utah is no exception. Talk to any applicant who knows anyone, or who has ever been rejected, or look at other posts on here. It is subjective. 3.75 GPA and 35 MCAT don't guarantee anything these days.
 
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So you're both basically saying that the U should oversaturate their school with students with high stats. Do you not see the flaw in this? Do you wonder why they call them PERSONAL statements? Or why there are interviews? There's a reason they ask for 6 letters of recommendation and if you can't see that then you probably don't recognize there is more to an applicant then a bunch of numbers.

There's a huge myth going on down in byu that if you're a white mormon, you have no chance of getting into the U. The reality is, only 1 in 4 of ALL "qualified" applicants are going to make it into the UUSOM. And with the demographics in Utah, it's not surprising for the group in majority to be bitter and blame the U as being discriminatory.

It's not really even about the numbers, although I think that people with high GPAs and MCAT scores are more likely to do well in medical school and match well when residency time comes. The U has a rep for taking students with less than stellar numbers, and then they wonder why they have poor match stats and board scores (see last year).

I agree with you that numbers are not what makes a good doctor. But I know people who are very socially well-rounded and have gone above and beyond the the extra curricular requirements who are turned down at the U. At my undergrad (not BYU) it is a standing joke that the better your scores/overall application are, the less chance you have at getting into Utah. My theory is they don't like to take Utah residents who are likely to get into schools out of state.

Sorry about the rant, but I guess what I (and the other poster) are saying is that we would just like know how and why Utah chooses the applicants they do, because it just doesn't make sense.
 
I applied last year and It was frustrating for me as well to not know exactly what the U was looking for. But now as a first year, I've noticed my fellow classmates filled the EC requirements in unique ways. Many students had lower MCAT scores because they were heavily involved with working, volunteering and research, and none of them treated their experiences as a checklist. They also didn't count a zillion church service hours as volunteer work just FYI. As far as board scores go, the new curriculum is so different that the recent data is likely irrelevent.
 
I applied last year and It was frustrating for me as well to not know exactly what the U was looking for. But now as a first year, I've noticed my fellow classmates filled the EC requirements in unique ways. Many students had lower MCAT scores because they were heavily involved with working, volunteering and research, and none of them treated their experiences as a checklist. They also didn't count a zillion church service hours as volunteer work just FYI. As far as board scores go, the new curriculum is so different that the recent data is likely irrelevent.


I don't understand what's wrong with counting church service hours as volunteer work. It's time that you gave up to do something for your community. Whether it was at a church or somewhere else shouldn't make a difference.
 
I applied last year and It was frustrating for me as well to not know exactly what the U was looking for. But now as a first year, I've noticed my fellow classmates filled the EC requirements in unique ways. Many students had lower MCAT scores because they were heavily involved with working, volunteering and research, and none of them treated their experiences as a checklist. They also didn't count a zillion church service hours as volunteer work just FYI. As far as board scores go, the new curriculum is so different that the recent data is likely irrelevent.

Did they tell you they weren't counted? Hours can only be counted in so many places. The application lists church activites as acceptable for both extracurriculars and leadership positions. It also depends upon what you did. Volunteering is not as simple as just not getting paid for it. Teaching a class while you are at church would be like wanting volunteer hours for going to church.

The bottom line is Utah is not unique in this discussion. No one knows what happens after the interview . . . no one 🙂
 
It is interesting that the U is very specific when they list their admission criteria, and yet more students complain about their admission practices here (year in and year out it seems) than in any other school's thread on sdn.
 
I think the specificity is what breeds the discontent. People fill out the secondary, entering all of their activities and seeing the "average" and "above average" criteria, and then they start to get unrealistic ideas about what their chances of getting in are. If the U would just have you put down what you've done, and not spell out to the letter what an outstanding applicant should have, people wouldn't feel so offended that they were rejected after meeting and exceeding all the criteria.
 
Last year was an exception. I wouldn't be so quick to blame the "less than stellar" students for this one.

So tell me what schools do make sense in their selection process? There are only so many seats the U can award so I don't get the fuss about the application process. Sure, I understand everyone wants to go to the school in their home state but for the U to be transparent in such a manner that by doing A+B= acceptance then wouldn't that just make the application process all about completing a check list?

I know at least 10 people in each of the current medical classes at the U and I believe they do the best job of any school of picking out good future physicians.

Let's just agree to disagree. In the end, I love the U and that's probably why I get so worked up about their admissions process.
 
So you're both basically saying that the U should oversaturate their school with students with high stats. Do you not see the flaw in this? Do you wonder why they call them PERSONAL statements? Or why there are interviews? There's a reason they ask for 6 letters of recommendation and if you can't see that then you probably don't recognize there is more to an applicant then a bunch of numbers.

There's a huge myth going on down in byu that if you're a white mormon, you have no chance of getting into the U. The reality is, only 1 in 4 of ALL "qualified" applicants are going to make it into the UUSOM. And with the demographics in Utah, it's not surprising for the group in majority to be bitter and blame the U as being discriminatory.

Hmmm, how to respond to this one... it appears you are assuming my point of view, which is nice of you. Unfortunately it is also inaccurate. Of course I understand the importance of having a well rounded doc! That's why I've done a whole lot of cool stuff. However, I've gone to see a very nice and personable and well rounded doc lately that misdiagnosed my child and caused my wife and I a little heartache by doing so. Honestly, when I see a doc, I want performance and competency first. Everything else like well-roundedness, personality, and diversity follow next (and yes, they are ALL important and should be considered). I respect your view of the U's admittance criteria. And I respect even more your vigorous defense of U Med because you show you have grit. I have a different opinion, which is that academic performance should be weighted more than 20%. Should it be weighted 99%? No. I'll leave that for Wash U. I am glad the U does some cutoffs, though. I think 3.0 and 7-7-7 are frighteningly low, but at least they're there.

As a BYU student, your point about the rumor is noted. Your rendition of it is grossly exaggerated. The rumor, which I did not actually get from BYU at all, but from U of U Med grads, doctors, is that my odds of getting in are lower because I am a white male mormon like a major portion of their applicants. These are docs, graduated from the U Medical School. And if it is true that the U actively seeks diversity, so what? I can take it if they want to spice things up. However, I also understand that this would lower my odds.
 
Of course I understand the importance of having a well rounded doc! That's why I've done a whole lot of cool stuff. However, I've gone to see a very nice and personable and well rounded doc lately that misdiagnosed my child and caused my wife and I a little heartache by doing so. Honestly, when I see a doc, I want performance and competency first. Everything else like well-roundedness, personality, and diversity follow next (and yes, they are ALL important and should be considered). I respect your view of the U's admittance criteria. And I respect even more your vigorous defense of U Med because you show you have grit. I have a different opinion, which is that academic performance should be weighted more than 20%. Should it be weighted 99%? No. I'll leave that for Wash U. I am glad the U does some cutoffs, though. I think 3.0 and 7-7-7 are frighteningly low, but at least they're there.

Well said. I totally agree.
 
Wait, so are you trying to make the connection that this physician who caused you turmoil may have been a result of a lackluster undergraduate education? You did mention competency and performance but you didn't distinguish between medical school performance versus an undergraduate performance. This doctor has passed his boards and is licensed, so did you ever ask yourself if it was an honest mistake? To use this in your argument in this discussion is somewhat laughable.

Plus to describe as "spice things up" in reference to minorities being admitted to medical school would make any one question what kind of exposure you have had to diversity. It especially makes one wonder if you are one who is tolerant rather than accepting of different backgrounds.

And by the way, the "exaggerated" rumor is not so exaggerated as you speak. I have gone to three lectures where the Dean was kind enough to speak to pre-meds about the medical school process and time after time some ignorant person always entertains the offensive question "is it true the U medical school is biased against Mormons?". Of course Dr. Samuelson's advice to this absurd question is (indirectly answered): to never list your LDS mission as your only community service activity! Yet, when people do it and are subsequently rejected, they point at the U as being discriminatory. (Please refer back to ZigZag's comment)

I have also heard byu students accuse the U of being discriminatory because more UofU students are accepted each year than byu student's. And the only distinguishing factor they can think of is religious backgrounds and/or skin color. I hope that neither you or MDiggity believe in any of this.

It's a well known fact that skin color affects acceptance. Not only at Utah, but everywhere. Just a fact of life.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-mcatgpa-grid-3yrs-app-accpt-raceeth.htm
 
Wait, so are you trying to make the connection that this physician who caused you turmoil may have been a result of a lackluster undergraduate education? You did mention competency and performance but you didn't distinguish between medical school performance versus an undergraduate performance. This doctor has passed his boards and is licensed, so did you ever ask yourself if it was an honest mistake? To use this in your argument in this discussion is somewhat laughable.

Plus to describe as "spice things up" in reference to minorities being admitted to medical school would make any one question what kind of exposure you have had to diversity. It especially makes one wonder if you are one who is tolerant rather than accepting of different backgrounds.

And by the way, the "exaggerated" rumor is not so exaggerated as you speak. I have gone to three lectures where the Dean was kind enough to speak to pre-meds about the medical school process and time after time some ignorant person always entertains the offensive question "is it true the U medical school is biased against Mormons?". Of course Dr. Samuelson's advice to this absurd question is (indirectly answered): to never list your LDS mission as your only community service activity! Yet, when people do it and are subsequently rejected, they point at the U as being discriminatory. (Please refer back to ZigZag's comment)

I have also heard byu students accuse the U of being discriminatory because more UofU students are accepted each year than byu student's. And the only distinguishing factor they can think of is religious backgrounds and/or skin color. I hope that neither you or MDiggity believe in any of this.


OK, we're not getting anywhere with this one, you have the floor my friend. Good luck with your apps. May the U accept us all with open arms after all of our debating about their philosophies and admission procedures. 🙂
 
I applied last year and It was frustrating for me as well to not know exactly what the U was looking for. But now as a first year, I've noticed my fellow classmates filled the EC requirements in unique ways. Many students had lower MCAT scores because they were heavily involved with working, volunteering and research, and none of them treated their experiences as a checklist. They also didn't count a zillion church service hours as volunteer work just FYI. As far as board scores go, the new curriculum is so different that the recent data is likely irrelevent.

zigzag22,

thanks for the info. i hope you are right about the new curriculum making the board scores irrelevant. what a great thing it would be for the entire state for U Med to pump out some great scores and matches.👍 good luck with your heavy load. 😱

also, good to know about the importance of doing research/volunteering/work not as a checklist, but i'm assuming as just part of who someone is and what they believe in. i remember a story from one of my interviews about a particular newly admitted med student who boasted "i'm in! no more volunteering for me!" i guess he was a good example of what sort of attitude annoys adcoms nationwide.
 
@ CLEARSIGHT....

You can "take it" if the U wants to "spice things up?" As a URM, I'm offended....talk about cultural competence! You should be a bit more aware of your word choice.
 
Interesting discussion here. Might I add my two cents -

People are upset about the admissions at Utah because of the lack of accurate transparancy in the process. They "attempt" to make it clear up-front what is expected by having the magical 8 categories of what is important, even going so far as to give the average amounts of ECs of typical applicants. This plays into the admissions decision, but its main purpose is to qualify for an interview, which is ultimately what determines who gets accepted or not. Should the interview, which is subject to a high degree of variability, be the main determining factor?? A family friend was accepted with a marginal resume a couple of years ago after having a great interview with a faculty member. He had an odd hobby, which the interviewer just happened to also participate in. They talked about that the entire interview.

There is not perfect way to determine who will be most successful in med school and who will become the best doctors. However, like it or not, the MCAT and one's GPA are probably some of the best single predictors available (but not exclusively the only ones), representing largely one's ability to comprehend complex scientific problems, and one's dedication and work ethic related to academic and professional pursuits. This is probably why so many other schools put greater emphasis on those variables. It is still surprising that they keep these application standards considering their track-record with board scores and residency placements.

There is a stigma among BYU students (which isn't necessarily true, but not altogether without good reason) that they are discriminated against. A large portion of BYU applicants are white, male, having served a mission. It's hard to differentiate among them when selecting for a limited number of spots. Additionally, when I was applying to Utah, they had some of the "worst" stats as far as diversity and URMs went (probably because they had less of those applicants overall). Given that the U has a larger incentive to accept URMs, it's natural to think that being white male, you will be looked at even more less favorably compared to other schools that have more URMs applying.

To finish off this post that is way too long, I'll speak from personal experience, in the most humble way I can but still get the point across. I applyed to an average amount of schools, got interview invites from most of them, and got accepted everywhere I interviewed including multiple "top-tier" schools ... except for the U, where I was rejected early in January. I had a very well-rounded application, with exceptional "scores", and I don't believe that my interviewing skills were too horrible, all things considered. I'm now happily at a "top-ten" school (if that's important to anyone reading this,but which I personally don't put much weight in), which consistently produces some of the best leaders in medicine all around. The fact that my story isn't an isolated one should be alarming, and that is what I believe upsets people the most. I know that people who attend the U med school are great people and will be good doctors, but I don't think they accept the best students out of their application pool. Whether that's by choice, or an unfortunate result of the overly subjective application process, I don't know. But the fact that more people are upset about the application process at the U than any other school I know about should raise a red flag - and the fact that they don't do anything to change it should be a signal to the type of organization they are running.
 
Has anyone heard back from Utah post-interview? I am kinda going crazy checking my email 4 times a day.
 
anyone have any ideas and/or guesses about when the January acceptances might be coming out?
 
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