2020-2021 Central Florida

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BU Medical Sciences
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Hi everyone, M1 at the COM here, just wanted to put a plug in for this school. I absolutely love it here. The transparency of the administration as well as how much the faculty care about every student is so real. They have been so responsive to us as we adapt to school during zoom, advocating for our education and experience. I could go on and on about it, I really can't say enough about how much I love this school.
 
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MEtoMD said:
Do you know when UCF will post this year’s Match list? @REL
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I hope to have a copy early in the week. I know it was another strong match. Listening to about 1/3 of the match announcements I heard lots of great matches at top institutions Duke, UPA, Emory, Stanford, Brown, Tufts, Cornell, MGen, Brigham, Vandy, Wash U, Baylor, UTSA, Walter Reed, NYC. It appears that about 1/3 stayed in FL. I will provide more early in the week.
 
bethedifference said:
@REL waitlisted OOS - unequivocally my top choice - does UCF take updated recommendations from new research employer? Thanks
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Additional LOR updates will not likely be reviewed by the committee after your file has been reviewed. About the only thing they will note at this point is Letters of Intent that have been uploaded. If you do add an Intent letter, make sure that you also advise the admissions office to that they can ensure that the committee is aware.
 
REL said:
Additional LOR updates will not likely be reviewed by the committee after your file has been reviewed. About the only thing they will note at this point is Letters of Intent that have been uploaded. If you do add an Intent letter, make sure that you also advise the admissions office to that they can ensure that the committee is aware.
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Hi @REL! I'm a little confused -- you have previously said that once a candidate is placed on the WL, nothing will cause relative position to change, other than people dropping off. While I'm sure the adcom LOVES to see expressions of intent to enroll, exactly how do LOIs help, if the adcom goes down the list in order and the LOI doesn't impact relative position? Is it literally only in the case where two candidates have identical scores, and one sent a LOI and one didn't?

Please forgive me for saying this, but, unless I misunderstood or misremembered something you said previously, it kind of sounds like the adcom is encouraging something that serves to create a sense of obligation to enroll on applicants while not actually impacting whatever action the adcom is ultimately going to take. Thanks!!!
 
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You are correct in that a Letter of Intent can only impact an applicant if we are visiting their total committee score. For example if we are at score 66 the committee will likely select one who has sent a letter of intent. They have no effect unless we get to that numerical address. In truth this will likely only impact applicants in the middle 1/3 as all of those above will likley get an offer at some point.

A letter of intent to enroll should only be sent IF it is an absolute final decision, so yes we will consider it a promise, it is an indicator of professionalism. If they promise and break it, it could be reported to the school where that applicant matriculates. That program may choose to keep an eye on that student for other indicators. A letter of intent should not be sent without that intent.
 
REL said:
You are correct in that a Letter of Intent can only impact an applicant if we are visiting their total committee score. For example if we are at score 66 the committee will likely select one who has sent a letter of intent. They have no effect unless we get to that numerical address. In truth this will likely only impact applicants in the middle 1/3 as all of those above will likley get an offer at some point.

A letter of intent to enroll should only be sent IF it is an absolute final decision, so yes we will consider it a promise, it is an indicator of professionalism. If they promise and break it, it could be reported to the school where that applicant matriculates. That program may choose to keep an eye on that student for other indicators. A letter of intent should not be sent without that intent.
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Thank you VERY much for the clarification. Your posts are the reason UCF is probably the #1 school in country in terms of transparency!!! 🙂

And, just to clarify for anyone having any remaining questions, given the gravity you give to LOIs, they really should only be sent by people in the middle third who honestly will drop everything and commit to UCF given the opportunity. And, even then, the odds of a LOI are influencing a decision are extremely low, because they will only make a difference, if at all, at the very lowest score you end up hitting (i.e., using your example, everyone with a 67 will receive a call, with or without a LOI, before LOIs are prioritized at 66).

There is no reason for anyone in the top third to make such a commitment because, in all likelihood, they are going to receive a call regardless. Similarly, there is no reason for anyone in the bottom third to send one because, historically, you never get that far into your WL. Correct?

TBH, given the risks of someone maybe wanting to change their mind, and the relatively low likelihood of it making a difference, it really sounds like they are only advisable for people in the middle third with no other WLs (or As) that a candidate would prefer, under any circumstances, over UCF.
 
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KnightDoc said:
Thank you VERY much for the clarification. Your posts are the reason UCF is probably the #1 school in country in terms of transparency!!! 🙂

And, just to clarify for anyone having any remaining questions, given the gravity you give to LOIs, they really should only be sent by people in the middle third who honestly will drop everything and commit to UCF given the opportunity. And, even then, the odds of a LOI are influencing a decision are extremely low, because they will only make a difference, if at all, at the very lowest score you end up hitting (i.e., using your example, everyone with a 67 will receive a call, with or without a LOI, before LOIs are prioritized at 66).

There is no reason for anyone in the top third to make such a commitment because, in all likelihood, they are going to receive a call regardless. Similarly, there is no reason for anyone in the bottom third to send one because, historically, you never get that far into your WL. Correct?

TBH, given the risks of someone maybe wanting to change their mind, and the relatively low likelihood of it making a difference, it really sounds like they are only advisable for people in the middle third with no other WLs (or As) that a candidate would prefer, under any circumstances, over UCF.
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Going off of this question, will we receive notification of our status on the WL soon? Want to send something like this, but also don’t know if it’s appropriate given my spot... in addition, is it true that this is dependent on OOS/IS status? Like is it possible someone OOS could be x spots below a bunch of IS people, but still get an A given the OOS/IS ratio... or assuming a lot of other OOS people decline their acceptance?
 
aspiringdoctor9701 said:
Going off of this question, will we receive notification of our status on the WL soon? Want to send something like this, but also don’t know if it’s appropriate given my spot... in addition, is it true that this is dependent on OOS/IS status? Like is it possible someone OOS could be x spots below a bunch of IS people, but still get an A given the OOS/IS ratio... or assuming a lot of other OOS people decline their acceptance?
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Hopefully @REL will answer this. I was under the impression that they have different lists for IS and OOS in order to be able to maintain their target ratio without getting into spot jumping. Also, don't you already know your "status"? If so, I don't think anything has changed yet, since @REL has already indicated that they haven't started pulling yet.
 
KnightDoc said:
Hopefully @REL will answer this. I was under the impression that they have different lists for IS and OOS in order to be able to maintain their target ratio without getting into spot jumping. Also, don't you already know your "status"? If so, I don't think anything has changed yet, since @REL has already indicated that they haven't started pulling yet
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We typically reorganize reorganize applicants into separate Florida/Non-Florida rosters after the final admissions committee meeting. That final meeting will be this week. We try to send out the monthly updates at the end of the month. In a normal season the wait list does not begin to move until the latter portion of April.

So far this has not been a normal year for programs or applicants. As I have said previously it is a difficult season to read. Based on applicant feedback we have done a favorable job in our process so that makes me optimistic that we will have a normal year. As an optimist that is also prone to believe what applicants say, I always get disappointed, so I am preparing for more movement than usual.

Many applicants make good decisions when selecting a program, often based on family or undergraduate locations. Others make decisions solely based on finances which should not be a primary factor in their choice. Most applicants must understand that they will go $200k+ in debt for their medical school education. One program may be more costly than another by a few thousand, but it could a better choice. A cost difference of ~10k per year that is not much of a difference in the final payback.

Many look at the entry (matriculation) data of a class and make decisions that school X is better than school Y. That is not the place to focus. Focus should be placed on the mission of the program, the support that they can offer their students academically and emotionally, clinical training with a variation of diverse patient situations in different types of clinical facilities, and the outcomes of the residency Match each year. These are all things that you can determine if you do some deeper research on your top candicate programs. The only other important thing that you cannot determine is licensure exam scores which are not publicly available. I will provide some thoughts for you to consider about how to determine some of these things about a program:
- It begins with Admissions. Are they supportive, commuincative, and willing to answer questions. How much exposure to students do you have in their process. How open are they with you to share their process and outcomes. Do you get the feeling that all of the other offices within Student Affairs will support you in a similar way (were you even exposed to them)? Similarly what was you exposure to faculty and other staff and leaders?
- Does the curriculum provide you with a good process of learning the whole of medicine? How many hours are you required to "attend" learning events? When and how often do you begin to learn the aspects of clinical medicine and interact with live standardized patients, mannikins, and partial-task trainers? Is this in the school, in physicain offices, 1-2 medical facilities, or multiple facilities? Will your training place you in an environment where you will treat the diversity of the American people and their associated illnesses? Do they provide you with opportunities to take an "optional weekly quiz" to help identify the major topics of the week to help you understand where your strengths and weaknesses of understanding the material of the week? Do they allow you access to these "quizzes" to help prepare for the national exams? Are their exams in board format and are their faculty trained to create these exams? Are the faculty accessible? Do they have a process for assisting students who feel that they need help in their studies and an office that will support your in this effor? What is the culture of the support process within the student body - how often is it used? Are topics of nutrition, gender-based medicine and other similar topics formally included in the curriculum? Does the program require/encourage research in their curriculum or is it even important to understand the "process" of research to become a competent physicain? I will say that the UCF curriculum does include the required research module in our curriculum and it does make a difference when you are applying to residency. Is their grading scale only P/F? How do you think that will help you when the first national board exam is now also P/F? If the grading system is some form of multiple grades A/B/C/F, Honors/Pass/Fail, etc, does their grading place you in competition to be in the top ?25%? to receive an A or can the entire class receive an "A" if they meet the requirement?
- Does the medical school provide immediate access to the med school Registrar, Financial Services, Student Service, Personal Wellness, Academic Support, Dean level leaders, and actual clinical support for their students if you are ill, all within the med school building, or very nearby? Can you easily travel to multiple destinations for training or for fun via auto, airplane, to clinical or vacation areas? Does their airport provide access to multiple destinations, or do you have to travel to 2-3 regional hubs to then complete your flight to your destination?
- What are the outcomes of national board scores and the Match? You will not have access to the board scores and I am sure that all programs have told you they they are above the national average for the board exams. On "interview day" have you ever heard a program tell you that their board scores were below the national average? (I would love to hear from you if you have - that program is being very honest!) As an older citizen I grew up in a time when an average was the area between upper and lower scores --- is it possible that new math can put all programs above the average? I am sure that an admission office would not tell you something that was untrue? The point here is that you cannot verify the board scores, this information is simply not available to you. Match outcomes are an indicator of board scores and also of med student choice. Strong board performances are normally related, in-part, to the outcomes of the program's Match rate and the specialties that they match within. The more a med student gets to experience multiple specialties, the wider array of match specialties you should find in the Match. Overall the Match is a result of student interest in a topic AND exposure to that topic while in medical school. Reviewing Match List outcomes and how many of a class actually matched are indicators. I personally review the Match list of all of the MD programs in our state and prepare 3-year data comparisons. I then look at that nine specialties that traditionally have been very competitive for entry. Over the past 6 years of 3-year comparisons, in order: UM, UCF, UF, (UCF and UF have flipped twice) and USF have been in the top 4 for that entire timeperiod; the gap between each program is generally 1-2 points. There has been a bigger gap between the other four programs over the timeframe reviewed. Overall all this is not a big difference, but it is information to consider. Looking at the Match outcomes over a few years does allow you to understand what specialties they do well so this could help your decision depending upon what you may be considering for a career. You may think that you know what specialty you would choose, but your program should expose you to many specialties and subspecialties while in medical school and these expereince will likely change your mind.

It doesnt matter where mom, dad, or grandpa went to medical school. It does matter that you are comfortable in your surroundings, that you are well supported, and that you get a wide array of training opportunities during the transformative experience that medical school will be to your life and your future.
 
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@REL, Thank you for the detailed response. I truly appreciate you taking the time to highlight such important information. I had a quick question follow-up question. Is it possible for some in the upper 1/3rd to come off the WL after this final meeting?
 
@REL Since virtual interviews were "easier" to accept this cycle, in comparison to previous cycles, was there less people declining interviews because it was more financially feasible w/o all the traveling costs?
Not sure if this is making any sense🤔🤔 but, If the same amount of students are interviewed (~450) and less people declined II offers, then the amount of people in total who received offers for interviews also went down as more had accepted and the quota for the 450 was met.
 
mochirice said:
@REL Since virtual interviews were "easier" to accept this cycle, in comparison to previous cycles, was there less people declining interviews because it was more financially feasible w/o all the traveling costs?
Not sure if this is making any sense🤔🤔 but, If the same amount of students are interviewed (~450) and less people declined II offers, then the amount of people in total who received offers for interviews also went down as more had accepted and the quota for the 450 was met.
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Yes I think this is what @REL was saying in that there may be significantly more waitlist movement this time around. Same amount of people interviewed roughly, but it was easier for anyone to interview irrespective of his/her true interest in the program. Before the financial cost of getting to the school and interviewing may have led only those who were genuinely very interested, where is now all financial and most time constraints were eliminated. I feel this movement for the OOS might be even more significant bc of the flying/hotel costs removed here, but should apply to IS people too. As an OOS, I love this school a lot so I’d have come regardless of virtual/non virtual interviews, but it was definitely much more financially feasible for me to interview here with the virtual interview setting.
 
bigsgr said:
@REL, Thank you for the detailed response. I truly appreciate you taking the time to highlight such important information. I had a quick question follow-up question. Is it possible for some in the upper 1/3rd to come off the WL after this final meeting?
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Yes, this happens at almost every meeting.
 
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aspiringdoctor9701 said:
Yes I think this is what @REL was saying in that there may be significantly more waitlist movement this time around. Same amount of people interviewed roughly, but it was easier for anyone to interview irrespective of his/her true interest in the program. Before the financial cost of getting to the school and interviewing may have led only those who were genuinely very interested, where is now all financial and most time constraints were eliminated. I feel this movement for the OOS might be even more significant bc of the flying/hotel costs removed here, but should apply to IS people too. As an OOS, I love this school a lot so I’d have come regardless of virtual/non virtual interviews, but it was definitely much more financially feasible for me to interview here with the virtual interview setting.
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Thanks for the good recap. Essentially in the past it took some effort and expense on the part of an applicant to interview which was not the case this year. But in all years there were very few who ever declined interviews.
 
We are likely to continue virtual zoom interviews for the next year to make it easier for the interviewees as well as the interviewers. We will also likely adjust our Virtual Visit to a ?monthly? visit that will last ?4-6? hours with a larger groups of applicants. We are leaning this way -- nothing absolute yet. What are your thoughts??
 
REL said:
We are likely to continue virtual zoom interviews for the next year to make it easier for the interviewees as well as the interviewers. We will also likely adjust our Virtual Visit to a ?monthly? visit that will last ?4-6? hours with a larger groups of applicants. We are leaning this way -- nothing absolute yet. What are your thoughts?? This will all be based on the perception that we can entertain larger groups in the building as we move forward.
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REL said:
We are likely to continue virtual zoom interviews for the next year to make it easier for the interviewees as well as the interviewers. We will also likely adjust our Virtual Visit to a ?monthly? visit that will last ?4-6? hours with a larger groups of applicants. We are leaning this way -- nothing absolute yet. What are your thoughts??
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I think continuing virtual interviews is a big plus. Of course there are benefits to in-person (being in the environment=motivation/ state of mind, seeing the school, face time, etc.), however I think some of the financial drawbacks greatly outweigh the positives.

It is no secret for residency interviews as well that something like 5-10% of applicants hold upwards of 40% of all interview slots. The biggest deciding factor for me in considering virtual interviews would be those that might be financially incapable of attending multiple interviews. Some articles I have read equate success in this process as those with the most recourses to expend in the pursuit rather than those that may be most qualified. I think this same philosophy may apply to medical school admissions interviews as well.

I would hate for students to turn down an interview that may have turned into an acceptance and even a scholarship because they were not able to afford the expenses associated with the interview.

Virtual interviews also allow for less interference in school and/or work, and again is especially a consideration for those who may lose income by taking time away from work or if their job will not give them the time away that they need to travel (it definitely happens).

One can even argue that virtual interviews are more environmentally friendly.

In summary- virtual interviews close the gap between those who can afford and those who cannot afford interviews as well as those with time commitment issues. I believe virtual interviewing may even potentially lead to a more diverse incoming class based on these factors. I’m sure everyone loves that in-person experience of an interview, but it is just not practical for many who maybe expected to afford or attend 1-2 interviews. I think that money a student has is better spent post-interview for a second look trip to their top schools. Given an in-person experience, a student may have already exhausted their travel finances and may not have the resources left to invest in a second look trip.
 
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REL said:
We are likely to continue virtual zoom interviews for the next year to make it easier for the interviewees as well as the interviewers. We will also likely adjust our Virtual Visit to a ?monthly? visit that will last ?4-6? hours with a larger groups of applicants. We are leaning this way -- nothing absolute yet. What are your thoughts??
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This is a really good initiative. Personally, I think the interviews and virtual visit should be 100% online; and the optional second-look for those who are willing/able can be in-person. Even if in-person continues -- virtual should be an option. Especially for people low on funds and with disabilities, it can be really hard to travel. And for all the reasons @nevergonnagiveyouup mentioned lol.

The only suggestions I would make for the way this cycle worked for UCF was to (1) have the virtual visit on a weekend (or weekday evening) if possible, to make it easier to attend, and (2) Optional informational sessions for those who are offered interviews. One school I interviewed at had multiple info sessions for things like its different programs, financial aid, research, etc. I know UCF did this to some extent during the Virtual Visit, but I found that offering additional sessions like that helped get a better sense of the school and allowed for more questions. But overall, really satisfied and grateful for UCF's admission process. ❤️
 

For format this is what worked best for me personally-
-Short 30 minute introduction and explanation of the day
-interview 1
-short break
-interview 2
-lunch break
-virtual visit

I think having the talk with current students/ Knights Ambassadors on a separate day is perfect- since current students are likely busy mid day, plus it cuts the day shorter for interviewees. I think 4-6 hours is the sweet spot, I had interviews that were 8-9 hours long and were not the best. Also current students who were required to interject with interviewers during their interview day often seemed distracted and/or rushed. The separate night meeting with the KA’s at UCF was the best student interactions I had all interview season. Also having the student panel as a mix of all years and all genders is a huge plus! There was one student panel I experienced that was all one gender and all first-year students. It was very one-sided and one dimensional, unfortunately I did not get a lot out of it.
 
REL said:
We are likely to continue virtual zoom interviews for the next year to make it easier for the interviewees as well as the interviewers. We will also likely adjust our Virtual Visit to a ?monthly? visit that will last ?4-6? hours with a larger groups of applicants. We are leaning this way -- nothing absolute yet. What are your thoughts??
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My thoughts are that this is very consistent with UCF being one of the very few schools that actually cares about what applicants think!!! 🙂

Yes, we will all lose a little by not getting a first hand, in person experience (which, if we are fortunate enough to make it that far, we can receive at Second Look), but, this removes a HUGE time, travel and monetary burden on applicants. This past year has shown that the technology can indeed provide an adequate substitute for the in person experience, and it would be GREAT if all schools moved to this, permanently!!!
 
REL said:
You are correct in that a Letter of Intent can only impact an applicant if we are visiting their total committee score. For example if we are at score 66 the committee will likely select one who has sent a letter of intent. They have no effect unless we get to that numerical address. In truth this will likely only impact applicants in the middle 1/3 as all of those above will likley get an offer at some point.

A letter of intent to enroll should only be sent IF it is an absolute final decision, so yes we will consider it a promise, it is an indicator of professionalism. If they promise and break it, it could be reported to the school where that applicant matriculates. That program may choose to keep an eye on that student for other indicators. A letter of intent should not be sent without that intent.
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In a hypothetical situation, let's say someone were to send a letter of intent right now. Are you still held to the promise even if one were to be accepted off the waitlist in June when you've already purchased a place to stay at the other medical school you would attend? I love UCF but was wondering if it would be best to hold off on renting out a place at the other school until I hear back from you all. Thank you again for everything!
 
premed568394 said:
In a hypothetical situation, let's say someone were to send a letter of intent right now. Are you still held to the promise even if one were to be accepted off the waitlist in June when you've already purchased a place to stay at the other medical school you would attend? I love UCF but was wondering if it would be best to hold off on renting out a place at the other school until I hear back from you all. Thank you again for everything!
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Yes I am in the same situation. If we were to get off the waitlist in mid June or so, after another school’s CTE date or after paying deposit/arranging for housing, how would you suggest proceeding forwards. Love UCF, but can’t imagine the risk of leaving other medical school offers if I’m not sure of receiving admission here at UCF.
 
premed568394 said:
In a hypothetical situation, let's say someone were to send a letter of intent right now. Are you still held to the promise even if one were to be accepted off the waitlist in June when you've already purchased a place to stay at the other medical school you would attend? I love UCF but was wondering if it would be best to hold off on renting out a place at the other school until I hear back from you all. Thank you again for everything!
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I would consider renting or purchasing a place at the other location to be you committing there already and so I would recommend CTE'ing at the same time you do that (which means withdrawing from WLs anyways).
 
REL said:
It appears that almost all AAMC MD programs will continue with Virtual Interviews next cycle.
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Has this been published anywhere that is accessible to the public, or is it just the sense you are getting from speaking to a few counterparts?

In either case, once again, thank you VERY much for sharing with us!!! 🙂
 
REL said:
It appears that almost all AAMC MD programs will continue with Virtual Interviews next cycle.
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THIS IS AWESOME!!!!! And a very unexpected, pleasant surprise. Now, all I have to do is get the IIs! 😎
 
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REL said:
Match Specialties:

25 - Internal Med - Emory, FSU, GW, MCW, OH(3), SD Naval, Santa Barbara, Spectrum(FL), Tufts, UAB(2), UAZ, UM, USF(4), UTX(Hou), UCF, UPMC(Pitt), Vandy, ECU, VCU, Westchester(NY),
18 - Emer Med - Barnes-Jewish(MO), Baylor, Carolinas, USF, H.Ford(MI), Mt Sinai(NY), Kaweah Hlth(2)(CA), Loma LInda, Einstein(NY), OH(2), St Lukes(PA),UCF(2), ECU, Wellstar(GA), Northwell-LIJ(NY)
12 - Gen Surg - Adv Hlth(Orl), Brig&Wom, Broward, USF, LSU, OH, Penn St (Hershey), Temple(2), UCF, Vandy, Wake
11 - Peds - Baylor(2), Brown, Child Hosp-LA, Kaiser P-LA, MUSC, Nemours(2), Cornell, UF, UM
9 - Anesth - Mayo/Jax, NYU, TX-Hou, UF, Vandy, Riverside CA, Mass Gen, Wake
8 - Ortho - Beaumont Hlth(MI), OH, Prisma Hlth(SC), UIA, UMD, UTN-Memphis, UCF, Walter Reed
8 - Diag Rad - Adv Hlth(Orl), Baylor, Duke(2), U Cincy, URoch-NY, USF, UTN-Mem(2)
4 - Psych - NYMC, Org Pk(FL), USF, UCF
3 - Opthal - San Antonio, USF, VCU
3 - Neurology - Stanford, UM, UUT
2 - Derm - USF,UCF
2- OB - Geisinger(PA), UUT
2 - N Surg - Portland, UUT
2 - PM&R - MCW(Milw), UF
2 - Fam Med - (Emory,UMass)
1 - Urology - Emory
1 - Rad Onc - UPA,
1 - Interv Rad - UM
1 - Plast Surg - USF
1 - Peds Anesth - Stanford
1 - Vascular Surg - UC-D
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Update with residency placement locations
 
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Accepted today off the waitlist! I was placed top half of top third earlier this month. I hope that seeing such early waitlist movement gives those patiently waiting some sort of sanity and relief in this year’s mysterious cycle. I have been checking sdn for a long time now and want to express my appreciation for this medium. Thank you to everyone who has been posting and specifically to @REL for such steller transparency and involvement. For those of you anxiously awaiting your first A, just keep pushing through. I know that is obvious advice, but it truly does not matter whether you get accepted outright in August or off the waitlist in July. Remind yourselves that if this hypercompetitive process were any easier, you wouldn’t want it as badly as you do right now and it won’t taste as sweet when it pays off. I am happy to answer any questions about my candidacy or otherwise over PM. Much love fam.
 
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