CCOM vs. LECOM-B

[pandasaregreat]

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Hello everyone. I was accepted into LECOM-B and CCOM and am not sure which to attend. Money is not the issue because I am already okay with the debt haha. So what are some thoughts and opinions as to which school has better opportunities while in school and for residency? Thank you!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Uh CCOM and it isn't close, especially since money isn't an issue...

 

[angeloflogic]

If money's not a problem, consider location. Do you want chilly Chicago winters or all year sunny Tampa weather? Do you want to practice more so in Florida and the south, or in the Midwest? I personally feel in general CCOM will have overall better opportunities because it's one of the original 5 DO schools, has more established connections, etc. Also, consider curriculum type? Do you like traditional lecture vs PBL?

 

[pandasaregreat]

So I am trying not to factor climate into the school I choose either. I am from Florida so am obviously not used to the cold, but I will adapt haha. I am not sure where I want to practice yet! And not sure how well I would do with PBL since I am used to traditional lecture classes in college. So CCOM then? So what about CCOM vs Nova? Is that a better school than LECOM-B in certain aspects?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

So what about CCOM vs Nova?

This becomes a different discussion and is much more about preference. The rotation difference diminishes with NOVA. NOVA is a great school.

 

[pandasaregreat]

This becomes a different discussion and is much more about preference. The rotation difference diminishes with NOVA. NOVA is a great school.

Okay. Well I have an interview there soon, so if I get in, I'll start to think about it. But for now, CCOM seems like the better choice over LECOM-B

 

[pandasaregreat]

& CCOM vs LECOM-Erie?

 

[cy123]

CCOM & Midwestern are overrated honestly (speaking as someone who interviewed and was accepted to both campuses, pm if you want my opinion why), I know you say money is not an issue but CCOM literally (not joking) costs 2x more than LECOM (plus cost of living in Chicago during rotations = $$$, plus MWU tuition will increase x% per year), so I'd wait and consider your options carefully before deciding.

 

[cliquesh]

Ccom is probably the better school. The price is hard to stomach, though.

 

[Papa Oso]

Looking at the match list for both schools, it is pretty much the same as far as primary care vs non-primary care matches for residency (about 3 primary matches for ever 1 non-primary). So it seems like the students both end up in similar places.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Looking at the match list for both schools, it is pretty much the same as far as primary care vs non-primary care matches for residency (about 3 primary matches for ever 1 non-primary). So it seems like the students both end up in similar places.

This is a good example of how NOT to choose between schools.

 

[Papa Oso]

This is a good example of how NOT to choose between schools.

If matching well is the ultimate goal as a medical student, what's wrong with using a match list to help make your decision?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If matching well is the ultimate goal as a medical student, what's wrong with using a match list to help make your decision?

Because a match list tells you nothing. There is nothing to be learned by going through a match list no matter how entertaining it is.

 

[AlteredScale]

ccom


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[ortnakas]

CCOM & Midwestern are overrated honestly (speaking as someone who interviewed and was accepted to both campuses, pm if you want my opinion why), I know you say money is not an issue but CCOM literally (not joking) costs 2x more than LECOM (plus cost of living in Chicago during rotations = $$$, plus MWU tuition will increase x% per year), so I'd wait and consider your options carefully before deciding.

Why I'm at a LECOM campus, exhibit A. I'll buy that the Midwesterns are better, but not twice-the-debt better.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

"Money is not an issue".... You may want to ponder this for a while. Just with a quick calculation with the numbers from the AACOMS catalog ($174,000, and $280,oo avg indebtedness) with ~7% interest rates... Payed back on a 10 year plan you'll be paying ~150,000 more.... You need to talk to some of the physicians you've been shadowing, and bring some numbers to them. I wouldn't put a lot of weight into what pre-meds/med students have to say about debt. That price difference could almost buy you an investment property in Florida (I'm originally from Lakeland). Stuff to think about!

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

Uhhh "money is not an issue"
You have no idea what you are talking about unless you are on the Military scholarship. CCOM will cost you $100,000 per year. You will probably be doing primary care after you graduate. Think about it.

 

[Cardboard101]

CCOM will cost you $100,000 per year. You will probably be doing primary care after you graduate. Think about it.

More. Closer to 125k/yr 500k+ total if you factor in loan repayment. It's sitting at 91k/409k right now for 2016/2017 and might increase further next year.

 

[I'mJustCurious]

I'm sorry this out of topic but CCOM is my dream school, was wondering what was your stats so I know if I should even apply to that school

 

[cliquesh]

More. Closer to 125k/yr 500k+ total if you factor in loan repayment. It's sitting at 91k/409k right now for 2016/2017 and might increase further next year.

That's insane. Hope you like medicine when you're done.

 

[Nikj]

Because a match list tells you nothing. There is nothing to be learned by going through a match list no matter how entertaining it is.

I have to disagree with this.

Granted I am a premed, to not consider the success of graduates and the residencies they match into is a big mistake. Yes it shouldn't be the deciding factor, but it definitely is among the more important reasons for choosing a school.

It's thinking like that which doesn't pressure schools into improving their GME connections.

Neither you nor I know what specialty any DO student will actually end up wanting to pursue, so applying to a school that tends to get more students into competitive or desirable residencies is pretty important.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I have to disagree with this.

Granted I am a premed, to not consider the success of graduates and the residencies they match into is a big mistake. Yes it shouldn't be the deciding factor, but it definitely is among the more important reasons for choosing a school.

It's thinking like that which doesn't pressure schools into improving their GME connections.

Neither you nor I know what specialty any DO student will actually end up wanting to pursue, so applying to a school that tends to get more students into competitive or desirable residencies is pretty important.

Except that every adcom on here says match lists are useless. They tell you nothing. You don't know who self selected to certain specialties, who was forced into certain specialties, etc. It's nice to look at, but you have to make big assumptions that you can't really justify making to get anything out of them, which means they are a poor tool for choosing schools.

 

[68PGunner]

Except that every adcom on here says match lists are useless. They tell you nothing. You don't know who self selected to certain specialties, who was forced into certain specialties, etc. It's nice to look at, but you have to make big assumptions that you can't really justify making to get anything out of them, which means they are a poor tool for choosing schools.

The match list does matter. Who the hell says that match list doesn't matter? Please link me to threads where attendings say that the school's match list doesn't matter.

Finally, there are some schools that will also give you the average preclinical grades of students who have matched into certain specialties based on data for the past 2-3 years.

With that said, CCOM match list is very average. At the end of the day, you will do fine if you try your best.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The match list does matter. Who the hell says that match list doesn't matter? Please link me to threads where attendings say that the school's match list doesn't matter.

Finally, there are some schools that will also give you the average preclinical grades of students who have matched into certain specialties based on data for the past 2-3 years.

With that said, CCOM match list is very average. At the end of the day, you will do fine if you try your best.

See @Goro's post in this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/should-i-read-much-into-this-match-list.1195823/

See @LizzyM's post in this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-the-residency-you-want.884374/#post-12060137

See @gyngyn's post here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/match-statistics-by-school-question.1145144/#post-16617491

And here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/university-of-miami-match-list.1186154/#post-17477579

All you have to do is search. Basically every adcom on this site says match lists are fun but not helpful in choosing a school.

Edit: by the way, I said adcoms not attendings, just to clarify. Which I think matters more for admissions.

 

[Nikj]

Except that every adcom on here says match lists are useless. They tell you nothing. You don't know who self selected to certain specialties, who was forced into certain specialties, etc. It's nice to look at, but you have to make big assumptions that you can't really justify making to get anything out of them, which means they are a poor tool for choosing schools.

I don't see how a schools adcom whose goal is to get the bests students into their program are not at conflict when giving advice on which school to attend.

That doesn't make any sense as an argument. If a particular school is consistently matching their students into better residencies( training/lifestyle/specialty), then of course that is the better school (other factors somewhat equal.) As a simple example, the LECOM/PCOM consortiums have huge networks that help match their graduates into desirable, or preferred residencies. Now can you say the same thing about a brand new DO school? Not nearly with as much confidence because they don't have as much power to influence GME outcomes.

I'd much rather risk my time at LECOM/PCOM who have proven track records( I'm using these schools because I've interacted with many Physicians who have graduated from them) than risk another school who historically has shown not to match well.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don't see how a schools adcom whose goal is to get the bests students into their program are not at conflict when giving advice on which school to attend.

That doesn't make any sense as an argument. If a particular school is consistently matching their students into better residencies( training/lifestyle/specialty), then of course that is the better school (other factors somewhat equal.) As a simple example, the LECOM/PCOM consortiums have huge networks that help match their graduates into desirable, or preferred residencies. Now can you say the same thing about a brand new DO school? Not nearly with as much confidence because they don't have as much power to influence GME outcomes.

I'd much rather risk my time at LECOM/PCOM who have proven track records( I'm using these schools because I've interacted with many Physicians who have graduated from them) than risk another school who historically has shown not to match well.

I already posted four links to threads where adcoms here said they are essentially useless. They have no incentive to lie here, as their schools are unknown. If you want to read those threads, go for it. Otherwise, you can either take the adcoms' word or assume you know better somehow.

It basically boils down to the fact that match lists don't give you much information. You can't know how many people got their first choice, last choice, who self selected for certain specialties, etc. Fun to look at, not much help.

As @Goro likes to say, reading a match list is like reading tea leaves.

 

[Swoleserratus]

If you get into a school WITHOUT a clown hallway, for sure go there.

 

[Nikj]

I already posted four links to threads where adcoms here said they are essentially useless. They have no incentive to lie here, as their schools are unknown. If you want to read those threads, go for it. Otherwise, you can either take the adcoms' word or assume you know better somehow.

It basically boils down to the fact that match lists don't give you much information. You can't know how many people got their first choice, last choice, who self selected for certain specialties, etc. Fun to look at, not much help.

As @Goro likes to say, reading a match list is like reading tea leaves.

Let me give you an analogy of what you are suggesting, because I don't think you understood my first explanation:

You are flying from NYC to London, and have to choose from two airlines, X and Y.

Airline X crashes 50% of all of their flights

Airline Y crashes 2% of all of their flights

and what you are suggesting is that because the overall statistical chance of crashing is low, that it doesn't matter which of the two airlines you take. Are you telling me that makes sense?

I don't mean to rag on you, but when you start giving bad advice to unknowing premeds that will have drastic affects on their future's it's not something that I can ignore.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Let me give you an analogy of what you are suggesting, because I don't think you understood my first explanation:

You are flying from NYC to London, and have to choose from two airlines, X and Y.

Airline X crashes 50% of all of their flights

Airline Y crashes 2% of all of their flights

and what you are suggesting is that because the overall statistical chance of crashing is low, that it doesn't matter which of the two airlines you take. Are you telling me that makes sense?

Your advice is horrible and your analogy isn't even close. Have you even applied yet?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Let's look at the match list at LMU-DCOM, which is often mentioned on here as one of the "bottom" DO schools.

I will use ortho as an example because everyone seems to fixate on ortho.

2014- 1 ortho match
2015- 1 ortho match
2016- 8 ortho matches with 1 being an MD ortho match.

Is LMU all of a sudden this school one should go to if they want ortho? By your definition then yes, but the logic is poor. By looking at these lists one could go either way and say that LMU is bad for ortho or is fantastic for ortho. All a match list can tell you is that it is possible to get what you want from almost any school if you work for it and what the class wanted. The people who specialize from CCOM/PCOM aren't working any less hard than the people who specialize from LMU/WCU.

 

[Nikj]

Your advice is horrible and your analogy isn't even close. Have you even applied yet?

I understand the argument that looking at match lists don't tell the whole picture, because those match lists don't include students 1st/2nd etc choices.

However, if you look at the match lists over a period of years, a person can make a determination that attending one school over another affords a student a better chance at getting a particular residency.

I'm not looking at the match list and going " Oh wow this school has 2 derm spots, and this other one has none. I'll definitely go to the first one because I want derm!"

The way I look at match lists is "Oh wow, I have a better shot at getting derm because this school historically has had a couple derm matches, while in the same time frame this other school has not matched a single derm spot"

The argument of 1st/2nd etc choices goes out the door because consistent data will show that some schools are better at matching students into certain residencies than others, regardless of 1st/2nd choices.

Whether it be because the school has better students getting higher complex/usmle, more connections with certain match spots, more students wanting to get into specialties, whatever the reason is, that school is obviously better for them to attend.

 

[Nikj]

Let's look at the match list at LMU-DCOM, which is often mentioned on here as one of the "bottom" DO schools.

I will use ortho as an example because everyone seems to fixate on ortho.

2014- 1 ortho match
2015- 1 ortho match
2016- 8 ortho matches with 1 being an MD ortho match.

Is LMU all of a sudden this school one should go to if they want ortho? By your definition then yes, but the logic is poor. By looking at these lists one could go either way and say that LMU is bad for ortho or is fantastic for ortho. All a match list can tell you is that it is possible to get what you want from almost any school if you work for it and what the class wanted. The people who specialize from CCOM/PCOM aren't working any less hard than the people who specialize from LMU/WCU.

Look at my new post, but I'm trying to tell you that I agree that there is more behind the numbers. I also agree that they don't indicate whether students at one school are better than at other schools.

What match lists do, is give students the ability to determine which school is historically more successful at matching students to a particular field. The reason why more or less are matching is irrelevant, what is important is the fact that they are consistently doing it, which indicates that something is going on such that one school stands a better chance of matching you into that desired field.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Let me give you an analogy of what you are suggesting, because I don't think you understood my first explanation:

You are flying from NYC to London, and have to choose from two airlines, X and Y.

Airline X crashes 50% of all of their flights

Airline Y crashes 2% of all of their flights

and what you are suggesting is that because the overall statistical chance of crashing is low, that it doesn't matter which of the two airlines you take. Are you telling me that makes sense?

I don't mean to rag on you, but when you start giving bad advice to unknowing premeds that will have drastic affects on their future's it's not something that I can ignore.

Your analogy is horrible. I will let you try to figure out why. The thing you seem to be missing is that actual ADCOMs on this site have stated that match lists are not especially useful in choosing a school, for a number of reasons. If you think you know more about admissions than adcoms, do you.

So no. I am not the one giving out bad advice. I'm reposting links where actual ADCOMs give that advice. So how about instead of giving your own terrible advice based on horrendous logic, you read what the adcoms say. Because what you're saying right now is that the adcoms and faculty members here are giving bad advice.

Might want to think that one through again.

 

[Nikj]

Your analogy is horrible. I will let you try to figure out why. The thing you seem to be missing is that actual ADCOMs on this site have stated that match lists are not especially useful in choosing a school, for a number of reasons. If you think you know more about admissions than adcoms, do you.

So no. I am not the one giving out bad advice. I'm reposting links where actual ADCOMs give that advice. So how about instead of giving your own terrible advice based on horrendous logic, you read what the adcoms say. Because what you're saying right now is that the adcoms and faculty members here are giving bad advice.

Might want to think that one through again.

That's fine, I'll be sticking to my own advice. As I have mentioned a couple times, I agree match lists shouldn't be the deciding factor, but rather a top reason to choose one school over another.

Yes I disagree with the people suggesting that there is no importance in looking at match data. If that makes me wrong or in the minority so be it.

Apologies if I offended you in anyway, I'm just trying to explain my point of view.

 

[Papa Oso]

Hey guys! Just a reminder that this thread is about LECOM B vs CCOM. We should keep it about the point and if you want to argue the match list discussion, please do so amongst yourselves in a PM. Thanks!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That's fine, I'll be sticking to my own advice. As I have mentioned a couple times, I agree match lists shouldn't be the deciding factor, but rather a top reason to choose one school over another.

Yes I disagree with the people suggesting that there is no importance in looking at match data. If that makes me wrong or in the minority so be it.

Apologies if I offended you in anyway, I'm just trying to explain my point of view.

So just for the record, you are choosing to follow your own advice, which is based on a misunderstanding of what a match list tells you and faulty analogies, over the advice of verified ADCOMs. Gotcha. At least you said match lists shouldn't be the deciding factor. That's something, I guess.

Carry on.

 

[Ho0v-man]

The answer to the OPs question is obvious:

Try to go to nova so you don't have to make this decision.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Nikj]

So just for the record, you are choosing to follow your own advice, which is based on a misunderstanding of what a match list tells you and faulty analogies, over the advice of verified ADCOMs. Gotcha. At least you said match lists shouldn't be the deciding factor. That's something, I guess.

Carry on.

I've made my arguments, you can take them into consideration if you'd like.

To answer the OPs original question, I would choose LECOM for the cost, alumni network, teaching network, weather, and PBL(if you like that style of learning.) They do have questionable clinical years in comparison to CCOM, but as I've heard from many students there, you can make them as good as you are willing to work for them.

 

[Rekt]

If you pick a school based on their match list, you're an idiot.

CCOM > either Erie.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

CCOM is toooo expensive. You will leave with more than $480,000 in debt. That's not a joke.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

I have to agree that match list should give very little weight to a decision.... So with that philosophy agreed upon what determining factors are you guys saying CCOM>LECOM-(any)? The cost of CCOM is just blaring! I also hate the idea of req attendance, but I don't see that making it an "obvious choice"... Is it rotations? A little bit of everything that pushes the scale?

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

CCOM has the best rotations of any DO school in the country. You're rotating with Rush, UI @ Chicago, and Rosalind Franklin students at some of the largest medical centers in the country. But is it worth the price tag of half a million dollars? That's for you to decide

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I have to agree that match list should give very little weight to a decision.... So with that philosophy agreed upon what determining factors are you guys saying CCOM>LECOM-(any)? The cost of CCOM is just blaring! I also hate the idea of req attendance, but I don't see that making it an "obvious choice"... Is it rotations? A little bit of everything that pushes the scale?

For a lot of people, the mandatory attendance and dress code are enough to make the decision for them. To me, letting a dress code sway you is a sign of immaturity, but I can understand why mandatory lecture would turn someone off. If they already know their learning style and have learned that going to lecture is generally a waste of time for them, then it's a legitimate concern.

I personally like attending lecture, as it gives me something to focus on when reviewing on my own. I have also succeeded in independent study and PBL type formats, so mandatory lecture is not something I'd base a decision off of.

If it's not important to you either way, then I'd say go off cost, availability of good rotations, and location. Even if CCOM has better rotations, I don't want to live anywhere near Chicago ever again, and I sure as **** wouldn't want to be in debt half a mil.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

CCOM has the best rotations of any DO school in the country.

Eh I think the state schools and PCOM have them beat. Students have told me that CCOM is like most private DO schools in that some are fantastic and some are very meh. But yeah I think CCOM has some of the better DO rotations as a whole. In this case I actually think the cost of CCOM is worth it compared to LECOM-B because of the rotations gap.

 

[pandasaregreat]

Thank you everyone for your input!

 

[Zelk]

I have been searching threads to compare Nova and CCOM because I have been fortunate enough to be accepted by both schools. I believe the consensus is Nova>CCOM. It's been a very difficult debating the two in my head since I live in WI

 

[Ulgarmoose]

There are people on SDN that think $200,000 of debt doesn't matter

Phew

 

[tony101]

Seriously, just look at the cost of tuition alone
CCOM: 65k
LECOM: 32k
Literally more than 2x as much.
So Chicago will be far more expensive than living in LECOM area, which will make it even larger.
Alone if you just paid tuition
4 * 65 = 260k
4 * 32 = 128k
I mean if you don't care at all about money, then go to CCOM but understand, it's not like you won't get a job as a doctor because you went to LECOM. I heard from multiple doctors I shadowed, no one cares where you go so just something to keep in mind.

 

[pandasaregreat]

I have been searching threads to compare Nova and CCOM because I have been fortunate enough to be accepted by both schools. I believe the consensus is Nova>CCOM. It's been a very difficult debating the two in my head since I live in WI

What makes nova considered "better"? Hearing back from them post interview within December, so if I get accepted that's something to consider as well.

 

[deleted244469]

I LOVE Chicago, but that's a LOT of salary you'd be losing as an attending ($$$ going towards loan payoff). As much as it would pain me, I'd go to LECOM-B.