How do I choose?? MD (Toledo) vs DO (MSU) acceptances

[phil413]

Here is my dilemma:

I was recently accepted to the University of Toledo (MD) and now have to make a choice between there and MSUCOM (DO). I'm a Michigan resident and I've been exposed to many osteopathic physicians throughout my life and really like the philosophy. However, I know MSU is well known as a primary care training school and I don't want to limit my options in case I do find that I want to specialize in the future (knowing it will be easier to get into a more competitive specialty with an MD degree). I really like UT because of the way the curriculum is structured and how they prepare students for the boards (high pass rate for USMLE, but MSU has a high rate for COMLEX too). That being said, I am now in a tight position because I don't know where I want to go. If it comes down to it, I may have to base my decision on funding: MSU ~ $30,000 and UT ~ $25,000 after getting in-state status and paying $51,000 for MS1.

Any advice is good advice but please dont make this an MD vs DO rant. I'd like input on the schools. Thanks in advance!

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[Caesar]

sadly, you are going to get an MD v. DO rant. This is SDN and that is how it works around here.

My advice, don't listen to other peoples advice. Go where you felt most comfortable. If you are worried about DO limiting you, go MD. Just reading your post it looked like you favored UT.

 

[FluffyRabbit]

Here is my dilemma:

I was recently accepted to the University of Toledo (MD) and now have to make a choice between there and MSUCOM (DO). I'm a Michigan resident and I've been exposed to many osteopathic physicians throughout my life and really like the philosophy. However, I know MSU is well known as a primary care training school and I don't want to limit my options in case I do find that I want to specialize in the future (knowing it will be easier to get into a more competitive specialty with an MD degree). I really like UT because of the way the curriculum is structured and how they prepare students for the boards (high pass rate for USMLE, but MSU has a high rate for COMLEX too). That being said, I am now in a tight position because I don't know where I want to go. If it comes down to it, I may have to base my decision on funding: MSU ~ $30,000 and UT ~ $25,000 after getting in-state status and paying $51,000 for MS1.

Any advice is good advice but please dont make this an MD vs DO rant. I'd like input on the schools. Thanks in advance!

You seem to like UT much better. Finances seem pretty comparable. Unless having an MD instead of a DO is a disadvantage (which shouldn't be true), it sounds like UT is the school for you.

 

[schrizto]

It sounds like you favor UT but like the philosophy of MSU DO. If that's true, go to UT and learn about osteopathy later (there are CME programs for MDs who want to learn about osteopathic medicine).

 

[DoctwoB]

I would say go to UT if you're 100% sure you can get the in-state residency after 1 year. If your going to be paying much more for UT that MSU, I'd pick MSU, unless you're really really attached to the letters MD

 

[phil413]

To tell you the truth, I've actually been favoring MSU over UT but been going back and forth between the two. I think that is partially due to the fact that I'm more affiliated with MSU and UT was new to me, being an OSS school and all. I do like the osteopathic philosophy but I'm trying to think, which will take me further in the long-run..during rotations, after residency, and the opportunities that stem from each school?? They are both fairly similar which is why this decision is so tough.

 

[JJMrK]

sadly, you are going to get an MD v. DO rant. This is SDN and that is how it works around here.

My advice, don't listen to other peoples advice. Go where you felt most comfortable. If you are worried about DO limiting you, go MD. Just reading your post it looked like you favored UT.

I got that impression also. Based on what you've said, UT.

 

[scrambizle]

I think you'll get a great education at either school. However, it is harder to get the most competitive residencies with a DO. Many top IM programs only interview a few or no DOs. Also, to apply to allopathic residencies, you may need to take the COMLEX and the USMLE. Make sure you do your homework and don't rush into this decision.

 

[JoshUNCW]

I think you'll get a great education at either school. However, it is harder to get the most competitive residencies with a DO. Many top IM programs only interview a few or no DOs. Also, to apply to allopathic residencies, you may need to take the COMLEX and the USMLE. Make sure you do your homework and don't rush into this decision.

If you want to do IM, a DO degree will in NO way hold you back. Hell, you could get a rads residency with a DO degree. The only difference is if you want an MD residency, you have to take the COMLEX and the USMLE which can be a pain.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I'm a Michigan resident and I've been exposed to many osteopathic physicians throughout my life and really like the philosophy.

If you are referring to the notion that osteopathic medicine is somehow more holistic than allopathic, I'm afraid this untrue. There was a time many decades ago when a distinct osteopathic philosophy did exist, but since that time both paths have converged on the same principles underlying all of Western medicine. You may find this thread to be informative.

Any advice is good advice but please dont make this an MD vs DO rant. I'd like input on the schools. Thanks in advance!

I apologize if this isn't what you are after, but if money is comparable I would go MD. It will make your life simpler. One board exam series (USMLE), one match, no risk of ever encountering bias against your educational background (which, I'm sorry to report, does exist in some quarters).

 

[tennisball80]

Don't DO it if you have the chance. I'd choose the MD based on the residency choices you will have.

 

[shiftingmirage]

I'm a Michigan resident and I've been exposed to many osteopathic physicians throughout my life and really like the philosophy.

Philosophies are really just flapping the gums. A person can go to a DO school or an MD school and be a great physician. I also wouldn't worry about a school being known for primary care. If you do well on step I/complex, rotations, get good LORs, you will have your pick of specialties.

My advice would be to try an get feedback from current students. Some schools will put you in contact with a current student. If they don't, try the allo forums asking for current students feedback on their school, and also specific questions you may have (clinical experience before M3, class size, profs, social scene).

 

[Geekchick921]

If you want to do IM, a DO degree will in NO way hold you back. Hell, you could get a rads residency with a DO degree. The only difference is if you want an MD residency, you have to take the COMLEX and the USMLE which can be a pain.

The Radiology department chief at my hospital is a DO.

There are a handful of other DOs in the department, too. We've got others in very competitive specialties, too (plastics, ortho, anes, etc.).

 

[tennisball80]

Again, personal examples make no sense. My uncle was the head of Surgeon General as a DO. So?

We need to look at some statistics to see weather MDs or DOs have better match

 

[MegaProjectile]

Again, personal examples make no sense. My uncle was the head of Surgeon General as a DO. So?

We need to look at some statistics to see weather MDs or DOs have better match

Anecdotes are a dime a dozen on sdn.

To the OP, if you're thinking of matching in a competitive MD residency, then you should go to an MD school. It's just easier. NRMP match statistics for MDs and DOs in allopathic residencies should shed some light:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2009.pdf

 

[the duck]

Again, personal examples make no sense. My uncle was the head of Surgeon General as a DO. So?

We need to look at some statistics to see weather MDs or DOs have better match

....and from a previous thread I believe it was determined that MDs have a significantly better match rate, not only in compeditive specialties but in prestigious residencies.

OP, I would pick the MD school. Even though there's a fair chance you would go through your entire career and never be negatively effected by being a DO, there is always a chance you'll fall in love with a specialty that is hard to get with a DO, or be turned down from your dream job because of it.

 

[cardiology88]

Go with MSU. I am trying to get into UT and can use all the help I can get lol.

 

[Caesar]

Don't DO it if you have the chance. I'd choose the MD based on the residency choices you will have.

And so it begins...

 

[Appless]

And so it begins...

lol its like watching a accident in slow mo. To the OP i would just go MD. It seems finances are similar, you liked both fairly equally (maybe UT more from your post?), and as parts unknown said, its just easier with an MD if you want to match into a more competitive MD residency. If you go DO you wouldnt be wrong but if i was in your shoes id just take UT and be done with it since it doesnt seem like you have some overriding reason to attend the DO school

 

[Geekchick921]

Again, personal examples make no sense. My uncle was the head of Surgeon General as a DO. So?

We need to look at some statistics to see weather MDs or DOs have better match

No need to be catty, I'm just citing an example, is all.

 

[Caesar]

DO's can apply to DO and MD residencies.

MD's can apply to MD only.

DO + competitive USMLE score = DO or MD residency

MD + competitive USMLE score = MD residency

I think this is the argument that comes up next.

 

[TheTinker]

Again, personal examples make no sense. My uncle was the head of Surgeon General as a DO. So?

We need to look at some statistics to see weather MDs or DOs have better match

I haven't heard anyone mention the weather in this thread.......

 

[Geekchick921]

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly, but if the OP lives in a DO-friendly area, and plans on staying in a DO-friendly area, doesn't it stand to reason that residency programs in the area aren't going to consider MD/DO as big a factor?

That said, like some of the previous posters have said, the price will be comparable (if he can get IS tuition for Toledo. Is that a definite?), but it does sound like he likes UT better.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly, but if the OP lives in a DO-friendly area, and plans on staying in a DO-friendly area, doesn't it stand to reason that residency programs in the area aren't going to consider MD/DO as big a factor?

True, but as the saying goes, if you want to make God laugh just formulate a plan.

 

[Caesar]

moving this to SSD, that is where these kind of threads should go.

 

[Everglide]

There's a thread in pre-osteo about MSU-CHM versus TCOM. You can read that and see where this thread is going...

If you have residence in Washtenaw, Wayne, or extreme south east counties, supposedly UT will offer you IS tutition / IS scholarships (supposedly also if you have 33+ MCAT?). I have an MS1 friend at UT who got the IS scholarship for residence in Wayne county. I don't know what the stipulations are or if this is even true anymore but you should look into it.

Both schools place people in "good" ACGME residencies but I wouldn't judge much from match lists, especially MD versus DO. Personally I think this one comes down to which one you'll be happiest at.

 

[UAAWolf]

Choose Toledo. It is a simple choice.

Osteopathy is dying...most practicing DO's will admit they do not practice medicine any differently than MD's. I've ran across maybe 1 DO who claims there's a difference....

Also one of my friends got high 30's on his mcat etc, chose DO because he likes the philosophy. He wants to be a surgeon. Yeah...good luck with that buddy.

DO WILL limit your chances to get certain residencies...NO ONE will debate that a DO and an MD have equal chances at surgery, derm, etc

 

[phil413]

I really appreciate everyone's input.

• I'm actually an Oakland resident so I don't think that IS Wayne country scholarship would apply to me.
• The fact that many DOs dont use OMM and practice in a similar fashion along side MDs is something else I'm looking into.
• I'm interested in preventative and women's medicine (being a female myself...sorry Geekchick921)
• From reading everyone's comments...I'm guessing MD would be the smarter move when looking at opportunities in residency and specialization.

Any more pointers. Thanks again, everybody.

 

[wishintobedoc]

I really appreciate everyone's input.

• I'm actually an Oakland resident so I don't think that IS Wayne country scholarship would apply to me.
• The fact that many DOs dont use OMM and practice in a similar fashion along side MDs is something else I'm looking into.
• I'm interested in preventative and women's medicine (being a female myself...sorry Geekchick921)
• From reading everyone's comments...I'm guessing MD would be the smarter move when looking at opportunities in residency and specialization.

Any more pointers. Thanks again, everybody.

Are you sure you'll be able to get in-state tuition after one year? I thought you had to be working or have a spouse working to become a resident of the state? I really do not know a whole lot about it, but be 100% sure that you can because $51,000 is a ton to spend. Like others have said pick the school that fits your life and where you want to be. Please don't make it about MD vs DO. I think it is crazy that people tell you to pick a school based on that. I have an interview coming up at an MD school and I will probably stick with the DO school because it works best for me. I have talked to several physicians and staff at a teaching hospital that have said DO will not hold you back. Some of them actually said that their personal physicians were DOs and they loved them. The only way DO may hold you back is if you want to do a crazy awesome allopathic residency at some top school. However being an MD may not get you that much closer. There are only so many spots. I think it depends on the person and how much they put into their academics and networking for what residency they can get.

 

[J1515]

I'm a DO resident who has gone through the match, rotated at, and interviewed at DO and MD residencies. PM me if you want to hear the truth. All you'll get here are opinions from people who aren't even DOs and didn't go to an osteopathic school.

And there is no difference in philosophy. Don't let that be your deciding factor.

 

[Ilovewater]

Are you sure you'll be able to get in-state tuition after one year? I thought you had to be working or have a spouse working to become a resident of the state? I really do not know a whole lot about it, but be 100% sure that you can because $51,000 is a ton to spend. Like others have said pick the school that fits your life and where you want to be. Please don't make it about MD vs DO. I think it is crazy that people tell you to pick a school based on that. I have an interview coming up at an MD school and I will probably stick with the DO school because it works best for me. I have talked to several physicians and staff at a teaching hospital that have said DO will not hold you back. Some of them actually said that their personal physicians were DOs and they loved them. The only way DO may hold you back is if you want to do a crazy awesome allopathic residency at some top school. However being an MD may not get you that much closer. There are only so many spots. I think it depends on the person and how much they put into their academics and networking for what residency they can get.

You can definitely get IS tuition after the first year...and the financial director clarified that. All you need is to register your car in OH, get a driver license from OH, register to vote, and prove that you're financially independent. You don't need to work or have a working spouse. And I definitely know for sure because my sister who goes to OSU got IS tuition after the first year, and OSU has the same policy as UT regarding residency.

 

[phil413]

Yup, Ilovewater is right. Students don't have any trouble switching their resident status. The school sets everything up in the fall so it's all ready and processed by the following year. For MSU, you do need the full-time working status or a spouse that can fulfill that criteria to be considered for IS tuition. For that reason alone, I'm glad I'm from MI because MSU OSS tuition is ridiculous...and for four years!

 

[Howisbabbyformd]

Yup, Ilovewater is right. Students don't have any trouble switching their resident status. The school sets everything up in the fall so it's all ready and processed by the following year. For MSU, you do need the full-time working status or a spouse that can fulfill that criteria to be considered for IS tuition. For that reason alone, I'm glad I'm from MI because MSU OSS tuition is ridiculous...and for four years!

So you got into an OOS MD program, but not into Wayne State or MSU's MD program?

 

[DRMRL]

Go where YOU want to go.

 

[phil413]

Yes, I got into an OOS MD. I applied to Wayne but was rejected and I never applied to MSU-MD because I didn't get a good vibe from the school when I visited a few years back.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I'm a DO resident who has gone through the match, rotated at, and interviewed at DO and MD residencies. PM me if you want to hear the truth. All you'll get here are opinions from people who aren't even DOs and didn't go to an osteopathic school.

And all you'll get from J1515 is an appeal to his own authority.

 

[BBender716]

sadly, you are going to get an MD v. DO rant. This is SDN and that is how it works around here.

My advice, don't listen to other peoples advice. Go where you felt most comfortable. If you are worried about DO limiting you, go MD. Just reading your post it looked like you favored UT.

man, Caesar, I love your avatar, lol

 

[tkim]

UToledo

 

[Geekchick921]

I really appreciate everyone's input.

• I'm actually an Oakland resident so I don't think that IS Wayne country scholarship would apply to me.
• The fact that many DOs dont use OMM and practice in a similar fashion along side MDs is something else I'm looking into.
• I'm interested in preventative and women's medicine (being a female myself...sorry Geekchick921)
• From reading everyone's comments...I'm guessing MD would be the smarter move when looking at opportunities in residency and specialization.

Any more pointers. Thanks again, everybody.

Hey, you don't have to apologize to me. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[dru2002]

And there is no difference in philosophy. Don't let that be your deciding factor.

Most DOs in practice drop the philosophical differences but let's not pretend they don't exist. That is why most DO schools require a letter of rec from a practicing DO and why one of the questions during interviews at DO schools is almost always something to the effect of why osteopathic medicine.

To the OP go wherever you felt most comfortable. In either scenario you'll be a doctor. Congrats on the multiple acceptances.

 

[phil413]

So I spoke to a DO physician and couple of MDs. The DO physician (anesthesiologist) was vague when it came to describing residency from both sides of the field (taking a DO route vs. MD route) while the MD physicians (internal med and neurologist) explained both paths and how friends they knew experienced the DO path. Just as previously posted, MD route is less strenuous in terms of testing and residency match--one test, one match vs. DO where you're juggling two uniquely different exams. I still have a handful of physicians to approach but at this point, Toledo is winning.

 

[Kb041]

Hey phil, I wanted to post a reply because I am finding myself in a very similar situation. Although I am new to this forum, I thought I could help by sharing how I decided MD vs. DO.

First and foremost I think everyone is putting the proverbial cart before the horse on the topic of residency. It is very true that as a DO you will have to jump through a few hoops, namely the USMLE to complete an allopathic residency. However, making blanket statements about not being able to get a competitive residency if you're a DO may be hindering your thought process. Think about what you need to gain a competitive residency. Great board scores, great MS1, MS2 transcripts, killer LORs, honors/outstanding in 3rd/4th year clerkships, publications, and a whole lot of other terrific things. If you want an OBGYN residency (you mentioned an interest in womens health) at a top 20 hospital, its going to be extremely competitive/cut throat no matter which side of the tracks you come from. What you need to have in order to gain that residency is perfection in all of the aforementioned...

Now what you need to do is think about how you could put youself into a postition to attain all of those things. Just because you are an MD doesn't mean you are more apt to get a spot at Mass General if you are going up against a kid that has 4 first author publications, a 260 USMLE but happens to be a DO...and you have none of the above.

What I did was look at the schools curriculum and the hospital/research institution affiliations it has. Will you thrive in the school if it emphasizes problem based learning? Are you more likely to do well in lecture based classes? What type of clinical exposure will you have in your MS1, MS2 years? Can you do your clerkships at excellent teaching hospitals? Will you have the opportunity to work with attendings and not be sloughed off to busy residents?

In order to make this decision you need to put aside all of the MD vs DO nonsense that you hear. You need to pick an institution in which you know that you can succeed and perform at your best academically. You will only get a competitive residency if and only if you are top notch.

Think about this too, the path to fellowships is through a good residency. If you want to do something like endocrinology, as long as you can secure a decent IM residency where you can distinguish yourself, it doesn't matter what letters you have behind your name.

Go with your heart and where you feel comfortable. Have the balls to dismiss any naysayers and the confidence to know that education is what YOU make of it. At the end of the day your patients want a great doctor, go where you can make that possible.

Okay, thats my introductory rant...welcome to SDN??

 

[DetroitRocket]

As a DO you may be explaining for the rest of your life what your degree means. That may be a consideration for you.

DO schools also attract students with less competitive scores/grades. That would also be a consideration, good or bad.

Some areas of the US have few DO's, so if you ever move that might be something else to consider.

 

[jbz24]

Not a knock on DO doctors, but there is no reason to choose a DO school over an MD school unless you have specific personal reasons for doing so. Many academic centers, in every specialty, take zero DO residents into their residency programs or hire DO attendings for faculty. You can go to the worst allopathic program and if you do extremely well, you'll be able to match into any specialty and possibly any program, including the best. If you go to the best osteopathic program, you have a good chance of just being screened out and rejected. In fact, many top programs are even willing to take IMG students (some take 1-2 per year) whereas you never see DO students in these programs. If this is fair or not is a whole different argument, but that's just the way it is.

 

[d1ony5u5]

OP, I don't know much about the schools, but wanted to make one point:

As this thread itself demonstrates, and unless you've been living under a rock you should know, there is some measure of discrimination against D.O.'s. That is just the way the medical environment is... Do you want to deal with that? That's totally your choice, and I can envision good arguments either way...

Otherwise, the schools sound like they are very comparable in financial terms...

 

[rockymhs]

Toledo is a good school.

I liked the atmosphere when I was there for my summer research program.

Nice small hospital setting.

Cool library as well.