you think private practice is easier???..residency, you basically treat medicaid patients, who usually dont have much option...they do complain but not much consequence. In private practice, patients complain more,,, you might lose referrals if you get so many complaints
i love teaching...so i dont mind the pre-docs...
Yessir. Like I mentioned in my previous post, we would get patients who were already very frustrated so it added to the already tough tooth. Private practice is definitely easier than residency for me (and all my coresidents concur). We didn't do 500+ cases but the cases we did were TOUGH! Private practice cases have been tough too, esp given that I'm in a middle class neighborhood with a TON of dentists who do their own endo but in general, its been easier than residency. Thankfully we've had 600+ 5-star reviews in the time I've been practicing and very few complaints so I think I'm doing ok. I'm the only endo in my office since day 1.
I’m with @MidwestOwl. IMO “tough cases” in residency don’t touch the “tough cases” in private practice. You have much more on the line, about an hour, higher maintenance people, and in my experience, harder actual endo. I’m also in a city where dentists try and do a lot of endo. But they’ll refer tough stuff all day, so at least they are wise about their limits. And for a majority of them, that’s all they refer. But you mentioned dental students would start “tough teeth”? We’d also see plenty of patients dental students started and couldn’t finish. But it was just because they didn’t have the experience or skill, not because the teeth were that hard. The tough teeth we have in private practice a dental student couldn't even get the rubber dam on or find 1 canal. Or get these hot 2nd molars numb. Or even get hand files halfway down the canals. I only did about 350 cases during my residency (COVID time). But I would say about 25% were actually difficult. And that was at the time. Going back with what I know now, I wonder if they’d feel difficult. Having 3 hours plus faculty also made it seem much easier. Now you have set expectations, calm nervous people down, deal with post op issues, money, treat the people experienced/ skilled dentists don’t want to. And that’s the case with 7-8 ppl in a day. None of that existed in residency or none of it mattered. It’s actually kind of wild to me that in your experience residency cases were harder. I’ve never heard that.
i have only been doing this for 5 years..not that long but long enough that difficult cases no longer scare me...However, dealing with PITA, 40-60 yo, middle class/ slightly educated, phobic and cranky mostly females is the worst part of the job..sometimes i do wish there is a diplomatic way to tell some patients how annoying they are.. some dont like to be in pain, but dont like to get shots..Some will ask for percocet just in case they are in pain.. if those people come back telling their GPs that their experience at your office is the worst.., you might lose a referee. kids are difficult, but at least they are cute...middle-aged whiny PITA, not so much
Yea, give me a tricky tooth over a difficult patient all day every day. Problem is it seems like we get difficult people with difficult teeth more often than not. Dentists don’t just cherry pick teeth, but they cherry pick nice patients too 😂. Like I’ll have someone sent over that the dentist tried to perform a root canal on where the tooth is either super calcified or a deep split, or just something that seems way too complicated for a GP to attempt. And the patient is just super nice, cash paying, etc. Then it makes total sense why they tried it.
yeah, always mandibular 2nd molar, limited opening, with a crown, cant lie down, cant stay put for 5 mins, nervous females with SIP. who will dodge every time the needle hit their bone...take 30 mins to numb up because they dont allow me to give too many shots at once
A lot of things to consider. How much are you making as a GP and how much potentially you can make as an endodontist? Is it worth the headache for the re-application? Can you get into one that’s cheaper? Cheaper programs means nothing if they don’t think you got what it takes to be their resident. I would think it twice before turning down a program that recognizes your potential.
My first cycle applying I had enough interviews that I choose to cancel two expensive schools. I had to reapply but I was lucky enough to go to a less expensive program, but there’s no guarantee of getting in and you take what you get. In hindsight I’d rather go to an expensive program than not be an endodontist.
i think people forgot that time is also money. Endo fresh grads still making good money, 300+k their first year out..so reapplying might be a waste of money and time...
Oh that's what I heard Penn does too (from a Penn grad). Top 10 are ranked #1 through #10, everyone else is #11. LOL
my sister went to Penn...they have GPA so it still stir the pot up a bit...hsdm does give out H/P/F during 3rd and 4th year...but there is no number so directors have no idea
the endo application process is annoying because most directors dont follow rules..they post on their websites that the deadline is august 1st but then start interviewing people in mid june. Directors compete with each other by offering interviews earlier and earlier every year. They also dont answer phones/ emails that often - if you miss one piece of the application, your file got tossed out. They also give heavy favoritism toward their own dental students or students from their "sister" schools. I knew a Korean resident at Iowa endo a few years back... and he basically half-jokingly told me that he was the only non-white resident that they had for a long long time. If you look at Iowa residents' profiles, most of them are white, from iowa or the mid-west... boring as hell backgrounds... grew up in iowa, high school in iowa, college in iowa, dental school in iowa,etc
not sure about the best...people dont like UNC that much because of the 3-year....when you are in your third year, you basically are there to teach the predoc for free...Fouad used to be chair at UNC?? i think his research on diabetes and random systemic stuffs affect endo got old after a while..
"I would be proud to call endo-colleagues"...some program directors, i wouldnt be proud to call them colleagues...Some are weird as hell...Luckily, now im not at their mercy any more...and make way more money than they do...I dont even bother to say hi to some of them at AAE. At least my director was nice
High 200s/low 300s, quota 250 but it might be increased soon
Honestly same... now having gone through 3 application cycles (1 as an applicant, 2 as a resident), the whole thing has just left a bad taste in my mouth: the favoritism, the competition between PDs, the gamification like it's a fantasy football league, the egos... blegghh. My PD is a really good PD but this is one aspect of him I'm not really fond of.
To be fair, when i was in dental school, we only started doing some dentistry perhaps 3 months before the end of second year. i still remember, I didnt even know what mesial is at that time...Columbia and Uconn dental kids take medical class but they are not actually med students. HSDM kids are meds students the first 1.5 - 2 years. we take the same classes, same exams, same grading, and in the same lecture halls with med kids..there were only 1=2 ethics courses that we did not have to do. we had to go to hospital to interview patients, listen to their heart their lungs, do physical exams on patients just like the med students. Once in a while, we had kids leave dental school to apply to medical school because they found out that they like medicine more.. I did like the medical classes more when i was there..
To be fair, when i was in dental school, we only start doing some dentistry perhaps 3 months before the end of second year. i still remember, I didnt even know what mesial is at that time...Columbia and Uconn dental kids take medical school classes but they are not treated as med students. HSDM kids are meds students the first 1.5 - 2 years. we take the same classes, same exams, same grading, and in the same lecture halls with med kids..there were only 1=2 ethics courses that we did not have to do. we had to go to hospital to interview patients, listen to their heart their lungs, do physical exams on patients just like the med students. Once in a while, we had kids leave dental school to apply to medical school because they found out that they like medicine more.. I did like the medical classes more when i was there..
I was admitted to HSDM and turned it down for my state school. My belief is that the people who self-select to apply and are admitted to HSDM, Columbia, Penn, etc. are just as capable of specializing from other schools. I spent some time later at HSDM and was pretty shocked at how students basically learn a “competency” in two weeks and they then allow them to do that procedure on real people. It’s not the way most schools do it.
I think people chose HSDM because of the pass/ fail. OMS training is brutal and they have to work hard to finish it, HSDM or not. Some of my classmates bluntly told people that they want to do ortho because they like the lifestyle, money, they dont like blood or whiny patients, etc...at other schools, you have to be in top 10% or so to have a good chance.
I know the state schools such as Texas, WVU, VCU to name a few, dont like the Ivy grads.. they invited me to their residency interviews but i dont think they have much interest in me. .i highly doubt that after an endo residency, a kid who finished dental school with 2 RCTs will be that much inferior to the kids that finished with 10. when the state school kids come to Ivy for interview...we dont rank them well. it is an eye for an eye...I fight for HSDM grads and tutor them the first few months as needed...it is a world of nepotism for sure
I still just am floored that kids with 10 RCTs get in- 10 is so few cases, and they’re all simple cases. How would you know you like doing endos if all you’ve done are straightforward teeth on straightforward patients.
schools tend to give courtesy interviews to their dental school students or residents...did you apply to the endo program at your dental school or at your GPR/ AEGD????
you can say the same thing about those in OMFS, ortho...or even dentistry. if ortho doesnt have good lifestyle or OMFS doesnt pay that well, quite a few of those guys wouldnt pick those residencies. I want to do endo because of the money... general dentistry, you have to upsell a lot. those cases might look scary to you at this point, but after a residency and a few years of pratice, all will become routine. at the end of the day, numbers/ stats will trump everything. Programs like to look good, they love to tell people about how academically good their residents are...when you have the numbers and know how to play the games, you will get in somewhere. If you dont have the stats, you have to rely on connections....
the funny thing.. Einstein did accept a lower classwoman from HSDM into their program 3-4 years ago. she was out for 5-6 year though...i guess after a few years...we are not that bad any more
I have no doubt that those kids who got accepted to Ivy League schools will have no issues acing the didactic classes at any state dental school. However, the hard part about specializing from these state schools is that you have to be good clinically as well in sim lab. As you go to your second year the number of dental lab classes will start to outweigh the didactic science classes and even just getting a B in one of these classes will hurt you immensely with your rank. Third and fourth year is also based on the number of clinical cases you complete.
that is the reason why i said kids at hsdm kind of "cheated" the system by not having to worry about ranking...HSDM is expensive and most of those kids have options to go somewhere cheaper...they chose HSDm for a reason - they just wanted an easier route to specialize
I actually went to my dental school the week before the cycle opened to meet/shadow the residents. Spoke with the faculty member on staff that day and felt like I left a great impression on everyone, but still didn’t get an invite. So hoping the ADAT will at least help me get my foot in the door next year and personality help me secure a spot!
Definitely keep going back in there! Show them you’re not only interested, but passionate and committed even if you don’t get in right away
non... take my advice, if you don't have a license in the U.S. ... no one cares about you, no matter what you do here. I applied 2 cycles and interacted with a program director heavily and his residents and staff. even that didn't get me a spot in their residency.
to be honest I've seen a bit of the opposite, plenty of residents from the middle east especially in some programs, I think it really depends on the program, and this is not just endo, but other disciplines as well, even some of the faculty are international graduates of the programs themselves, so yes, the chances are significantly lower, which is why an AEGD/GPR would be a big boost to the CV, but it doesn't mean you have 0 chances imo
I think it is really tough, not impossible. Keep bonding as you want people to notice you, and to make them see that you’re worth it. I asked a program director what do they see or why is it so hard for international trained dentists and he said that they don’t know about the program in your country and they don’t have time to do research about it. You may have learned dentistry differently than in the US… so they won’t risk it. Apparently the best way to enter a residency program would be after an advanced standing program.
it definitely does not hurt.. the H school in boston always has the highest entrance stats for pre-doc...way different than the H one in DC
i would take any promises from program directors/ chair with a grain of salt unless the promises/ wince wince are on paper, signed by the admission dean. When i was at one of my endo interviews, the chair basically told me that hey John, I really want to accept you but we have one more round of interview - I cant give you an acceptance now. If "another program put a gun to your head asking you to take the offer before we finish our 2nd round, call me and let me know. - i can work out a deal"..i did what he asked me to do when i got my first acceptance...to never hear from him again...
I am/was an international dentist (have an advanced standing DDS from USA but still was considered "international" at a lot of endo programs despite having US work experience) when I applied. I didn't get calls from any "cheap" schools despite the DDS. Your best chances are the more expensive schools with bigger programs - UOP, USC, NYU, Columbia, BU, Penn, etc. Unless if you have a ton of research/publications/contacts, don't even bother applying to the cheaper schools - It's pointless.
Schools like UTHouston (almost every year), UCLA (via the "ACT" program), UIowa, CWRU, oftentimes give a spot by default to one of the preceptors that they have. You might consider doing that to improve your chances.
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