*****Official PASS 2025 Endodontic Residency Interviews/Information***

[redroom]

Does columbia send only 1 round of invites for interviews? 🥲

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[AAdentist]

Any update from case western ? They did not send invites yet right ??? Last year was around oct-nov.

 

[MidwestOwl]

Yea, as @SirBrotherJam said, it’s the first 3-6 months where you kind of get baptized by fire. Pretty steep learning curve. 2-3 years later? No, I don’t think where you went to residency or what you did in residency will make much of a difference at that point. You’ll do 3x as many RCT’s your first year out that you did in residency. Unless you did 550 😂 (That’s a lot by the way). Too much work to not be getting paid… You’ll develop your own philosophy and practice style at that point. It’ll be lit based, but you’ll put your spin on it. As you see on the message boards, even though we all read the same stuff, there are plenty of different styles and philosophies when it comes to practice.

i was also the one that finished 554 cases despite missing 3 months of clinics due to Covid...55 surgery cases... cases in private practice are harder though...most cases we got in real life are 2nd molars, old patients, gaggers, phobic and the PITA that nobody likes...

 

[MidwestOwl]

Harvard is probably the worst deal in grad endo. $100k a year, 3 year program in a saturated city with 2 other endo programs. Very little significant endo research comes out of HSDM, and their faculty are basically all adjunct. Honestly, any 3 year endo program is a bad deal.

Einstein is a unicorn program since it's hospital based. They have all the toys. But there are other programs that have GW and lasers, too. I do think it's weird they're so big on bony lid EMS. Just not that practical IMO.

yeah, i was a Harvard pre-doc...Harvard predoc is extremely competitive because most kids want to specialize and will eventually become specialists of their chosen specialties...HSDM only gives out gold and silver medals to the number #1 and #2 from their class of 35. on paper, everyone else is basically #3. HSDM doesnt disclose your ranks to program directors; as a result, it is easier to specialize. most classes have 30+/35 kids specialized. if you want to do OMFS, harvard is the place to go. When You have to do medical school classes with the med kids 1.5 - 2 years, you will ace that entrance exam easily.
Harvard postdoc programs are not good. underfunded, not enough faculty, etc. they also love to bring in foreign-trained dentists to be their faculty... OMFS might be prestigious because you get the MD from HMS. HSDM do not do much impactful research because faculty have to switch to other dental schools to get promoted easier. The medical school has a say in who get promoted to professors. You cant just publish "composite is better than amalgam" research and expect to be promote to full professor. I know quite a few faculty who stay associate professors at HSDM for 20+ years while their residents become full professors at other dental schools in 10 years
Harvard post-doc are so desperate that they have to take random people from howard/ temple to be their residents...when i applied, harvard average DAT at that time was 23 with GPA 3.8, , Howard 17 DAT and 3.0...now suddenly, those Howard kids become "harvard" material???, so laughable

 

[TargetEndo]

2nd molars, old patients, gaggers, phobic and the PITA that nobody likes...

That sounds like every case we did in residency... Thank GOD it wasn't 554 of them! I'd have blown my brains out!
We would actually have almost every case (2nd molars included) given to predocs first, who would spend 6 appointments screwing it up and THEN the extremely frustrated patient would land in the resident's chair.
Pvt practice is SO MUCH easier in comparison!

 

[MidwestOwl]

That sounds like every case we did in residency... Thank GOD it wasn't 554 of them! I'd have blown my brains out!
We would actually have almost every case (2nd molars included) given to predocs first, who would spend 6 appointments screwing it up and THEN the extremely frustrated patient would land in the resident's chair.
Pvt practice is SO MUCH easier in comparison!

you think private practice is easier???..residency, you basically treat medicaid patients, who usually dont have much option...they do complain but not much consequence. In private practice, patients complain more,,, you might lose referrals if you get so many complaints

 

[MidwestOwl]

That sounds like every case we did in residency... Thank GOD it wasn't 554 of them! I'd have blown my brains out!
We would actually have almost every case (2nd molars included) given to predocs first, who would spend 6 appointments screwing it up and THEN the extremely frustrated patient would land in the resident's chair.
Pvt practice is SO MUCH easier in comparison!

i love teaching...so i dont mind the pre-docs...

 

[TargetEndo]

you think private practice is easier???..residency, you basically treat medicaid patients, who usually dont have much option...they do complain but not much consequence. In private practice, patients complain more,,, you might lose referrals if you get so many complaints

Yessir. Like I mentioned in my previous post, we would get patients who were already very frustrated so it added to the already tough tooth. Private practice is definitely easier than residency for me (and all my coresidents concur). We didn't do 500+ cases but the cases we did were TOUGH! Private practice cases have been tough too, esp given that I'm in a middle class neighborhood with a TON of dentists who do their own endo but in general, its been easier than residency. Thankfully we've had 600+ 5-star reviews in the time I've been practicing and very few complaints so I think I'm doing ok. I'm the only endo in my office since day 1.

 

[FutureDent020]

Yessir. Like I mentioned in my previous post, we would get patients who were already very frustrated so it added to the already tough tooth. Private practice is definitely easier than residency for me (and all my coresidents concur). We didn't do 500+ cases but the cases we did were TOUGH! Private practice cases have been tough too, esp given that I'm in a middle class neighborhood with a TON of dentists who do their own endo but in general, its been easier than residency. Thankfully we've had 600+ 5-star reviews in the time I've been practicing and very few complaints so I think I'm doing ok. I'm the only endo in my office since day 1.

I’m with @MidwestOwl. IMO “tough cases” in residency don’t touch the “tough cases” in private practice. You have much more on the line, about an hour, higher maintenance people, and in my experience, harder actual endo. I’m also in a city where dentists try and do a lot of endo. But they’ll refer tough stuff all day, so at least they are wise about their limits. And for a majority of them, that’s all they refer. But you mentioned dental students would start “tough teeth”? We’d also see plenty of patients dental students started and couldn’t finish. But it was just because they didn’t have the experience or skill, not because the teeth were that hard. The tough teeth we have in private practice a dental student couldn't even get the rubber dam on or find 1 canal. Or get these hot 2nd molars numb. Or even get hand files halfway down the canals. I only did about 350 cases during my residency (COVID time). But I would say about 25% were actually difficult. And that was at the time. Going back with what I know now, I wonder if they’d feel difficult. Having 3 hours plus faculty also made it seem much easier. Now you have set expectations, calm nervous people down, deal with post op issues, money, treat the people experienced/ skilled dentists don’t want to. And that’s the case with 7-8 ppl in a day. None of that existed in residency or none of it mattered. It’s actually kind of wild to me that in your experience residency cases were harder. I’ve never heard that.

 

[endo135]

Yessir. Like I mentioned in my previous post, we would get patients who were already very frustrated so it added to the already tough tooth. Private practice is definitely easier than residency for me (and all my coresidents concur). We didn't do 500+ cases but the cases we did were TOUGH! Private practice cases have been tough too, esp given that I'm in a middle class neighborhood with a TON of dentists who do their own endo but in general, its been easier than residency. Thankfully we've had 600+ 5-star reviews in the time I've been practicing and very few complaints so I think I'm doing ok. I'm the only endo in my office since day 1.

Was the program Detroit Mercy?

 

[MidwestOwl]

I’m with @MidwestOwl. IMO “tough cases” in residency don’t touch the “tough cases” in private practice. You have much more on the line, about an hour, higher maintenance people, and in my experience, harder actual endo. I’m also in a city where dentists try and do a lot of endo. But they’ll refer tough stuff all day, so at least they are wise about their limits. And for a majority of them, that’s all they refer. But you mentioned dental students would start “tough teeth”? We’d also see plenty of patients dental students started and couldn’t finish. But it was just because they didn’t have the experience or skill, not because the teeth were that hard. The tough teeth we have in private practice a dental student couldn't even get the rubber dam on or find 1 canal. Or get these hot 2nd molars numb. Or even get hand files halfway down the canals. I only did about 350 cases during my residency (COVID time). But I would say about 25% were actually difficult. And that was at the time. Going back with what I know now, I wonder if they’d feel difficult. Having 3 hours plus faculty also made it seem much easier. Now you have set expectations, calm nervous people down, deal with post op issues, money, treat the people experienced/ skilled dentists don’t want to. And that’s the case with 7-8 ppl in a day. None of that existed in residency or none of it mattered. It’s actually kind of wild to me that in your experience residency cases were harder. I’ve never heard that.

i have only been doing this for 5 years..not that long but long enough that difficult cases no longer scare me...However, dealing with PITA, 40-60 yo, middle class/ slightly educated, phobic and cranky mostly females is the worst part of the job..sometimes i do wish there is a diplomatic way to tell some patients how annoying they are.. some dont like to be in pain, but dont like to get shots..Some will ask for percocet just in case they are in pain.. if those people come back telling their GPs that their experience at your office is the worst.., you might lose a referee. kids are difficult, but at least they are cute...middle-aged whiny PITA, not so much

 

[FutureDent020]

i have only been doing this for 5 years..not that long but long enough that difficult cases no longer scare me...However, dealing with PITA, 40-60 yo, middle class/ slightly educated, phobic and cranky mostly females is the worst part of the job..sometimes i do wish there is a diplomatic way to tell some patients how annoying they are.. some dont like to be in pain, but dont like to get shots..Some will ask for percocet just in case they are in pain.. if those people come back telling their GPs that their experience at your office is the worst.., you might lose a referee. kids are difficult, but at least they are cute...middle-aged whiny PITA, not so much

Yea, give me a tricky tooth over a difficult patient all day every day. Problem is it seems like we get difficult people with difficult teeth more often than not. Dentists don’t just cherry pick teeth, but they cherry pick nice patients too 😂. Like I’ll have someone sent over that the dentist tried to perform a root canal on where the tooth is either super calcified or a deep split, or just something that seems way too complicated for a GP to attempt. And the patient is just super nice, cash paying, etc. Then it makes total sense why they tried it.

 

[MidwestOwl]

Yea, give me a tricky tooth over a difficult patient all day every day. Problem is it seems like we get difficult people with difficult teeth more often than not. Dentists don’t just cherry pick teeth, but they cherry pick nice patients too 😂. Like I’ll have someone sent over that the dentist tried to perform a root canal on where the tooth is either super calcified or a deep split, or just something that seems way too complicated for a GP to attempt. And the patient is just super nice, cash paying, etc. Then it makes total sense why they tried it.

yeah, always mandibular 2nd molar, limited opening, with a crown, cant lie down, cant stay put for 5 mins, nervous females with SIP. who will dodge every time the needle hit their bone...take 30 mins to numb up because they dont allow me to give too many shots at once

 

[endo135]

is endo still worth it after all that? would you do it again or would you have pursued a different dental path?

 

[justageneraldentist]

does anyone know how long after interviews USC provides offers?

 

[appleandpie]

Genuine question- is paying close to 300k for endo residency worth it financially? Could I DM someone who graduated from one of those programs (USC, UPenn, etc.) Just trying to figure out if it's worth applying to those programs vs working as a GP and reapplying in future cycles for the more affordable programs. Thanks!

 

[Sky9299]

Genuine question- is paying close to 300k for endo residency worth it financially? Could I DM someone who graduated from one of those programs (USC, UPenn, etc.) Just trying to figure out if it's worth applying to those programs vs working as a GP and reapplying in future cycles for the more affordable programs. Thanks!

A lot of things to consider. How much are you making as a GP and how much potentially you can make as an endodontist? Is it worth the headache for the re-application? Can you get into one that’s cheaper? Cheaper programs means nothing if they don’t think you got what it takes to be their resident. I would think it twice before turning down a program that recognizes your potential.

 

[Boat on the Chesapeake]

Genuine question- is paying close to 300k for endo residency worth it financially? Could I DM someone who graduated from one of those programs (USC, UPenn, etc.) Just trying to figure out if it's worth applying to those programs vs working as a GP and reapplying in future cycles for the more affordable programs. Thanks!

My first cycle applying I had enough interviews that I choose to cancel two expensive schools. I had to reapply but I was lucky enough to go to a less expensive program, but there’s no guarantee of getting in and you take what you get. In hindsight I’d rather go to an expensive program than not be an endodontist.

If you’re in your 20s, no spouse kids or parents to worry about it’s 100% worth it.if you have more responsibilities and a few decades left in your career it’s probably worth it. Depending on how much you make as a GP the extra income a year sooner will help close the gap.

Interviewing at more programs will also help you see how much you want to do endo, what programs are like, prepare you for questions at other programs, etc.

 

[MidwestOwl]

My first cycle applying I had enough interviews that I choose to cancel two expensive schools. I had to reapply but I was lucky enough to go to a less expensive program, but there’s no guarantee of getting in and you take what you get. In hindsight I’d rather go to an expensive program than not be an endodontist.

If you’re in your 20s, no spouse kids or parents to worry about it’s 100% worth it.if you have more responsibilities and a few decades left in your career it’s probably worth it. Depending on how much you make as a GP the extra income a year sooner will help close the gap.

Interviewing at more programs will also help you see how much you want to do endo, what programs are like, prepare you for questions at other programs, etc.

i think people forgot that time is also money. Endo fresh grads still making good money, 300+k their first year out..so reapplying might be a waste of money and time...

 

[rb19]

willing to take a spot if anyone doesn’t want it due to cost- just let me know

 

[Torshammer]

Genuine question- is paying close to 300k for endo residency worth it financially? Could I DM someone who graduated from one of those programs (USC, UPenn, etc.) Just trying to figure out if it's worth applying to those programs vs working as a GP and reapplying in future cycles for the more affordable programs. Thanks!

Say you take out a $300K student loan @ 7.5%, paid off over 10 years. You total repayment on that will be $430K. The monthly repayment on that is about $3600, and your yearly payment is $43K. You will probably be making $300k+/year as an endodontist working 2-4 days/week.

You can also refi for a significantly lower rate (rates will also come down in the coming stretch of time) or pay the loan off more quickly or look into the income-based repayment programs that can save you a siginificant amount of money over time. Also, you will make significantly more than $300K/year if you choose the right practice + become fast.

It's more than worth it. If you don't believe you are a strong candidate with options, apply everywhere and take the first acceptance that comes.

 

[endo135]

As someone who interviewed at several schools it would be crazy to reject a higher tuition program in hopes of getting into a cheaper program. The caliber of people applying is extremely high and youre competing with people that graduated top 5, research experience, work experience, military experience, teaching experience, coauthors of textbooks, 2-3x applying at that program, famous foreign endos, recs from the faculty themselves. Just take the first offer and never let go lol

 

[redchesus]

yeah, i was a Harvard pre-doc...Harvard predoc is extremely competitive because most kids want to specialize and will eventually become specialists of their chosen specialties...HSDM only gives out gold and silver medals to the number #1 and #2 from their class of 35. on paper, everyone else is basically #3. HSDM doesnt disclose your ranks to program directors; as a result, it is easier to specialize. most classes have 30+/35 kids specialized. if you want to do OMFS, harvard is the place to go. When You have to do medical school classes with the med kids 1.5 - 2 years, you will ace that entrance exam easily.
Harvard postdoc programs are not good. underfunded, not enough faculty, etc. they also love to bring in foreign-trained dentists to be their faculty...

Oh that's what I heard Penn does too (from a Penn grad). Top 10 are ranked #1 through #10, everyone else is #11. LOL

 

[MidwestOwl]

Oh that's what I heard Penn does too (from a Penn grad). Top 10 are ranked #1 through #10, everyone else is #11. LOL

my sister went to Penn...they have GPA so it still stir the pot up a bit...hsdm does give out H/P/F during 3rd and 4th year...but there is no number so directors have no idea

 

[MidwestOwl]

As someone who interviewed at several schools it would be crazy to reject a higher tuition program in hopes of getting into a cheaper program. The caliber of people applying is extremely high and youre competing with people that graduated top 5, research experience, work experience, military experience, teaching experience, coauthors of textbooks, 2-3x applying at that program, famous foreign endos, recs from the faculty themselves. Just take the first offer and never let go lol

the endo application process is annoying because most directors dont follow rules..they post on their websites that the deadline is august 1st but then start interviewing people in mid june. Directors compete with each other by offering interviews earlier and earlier every year. They also dont answer phones/ emails that often - if you miss one piece of the application, your file got tossed out. They also give heavy favoritism toward their own dental students or students from their "sister" schools. I knew a Korean resident at Iowa endo a few years back... and he basically half-jokingly told me that he was the only non-white resident that they had for a long long time. If you look at Iowa residents' profiles, most of them are white, from iowa or the mid-west... boring as hell backgrounds... grew up in iowa, high school in iowa, college in iowa, dental school in iowa,etc
Dental school application process is more transparent...directors and chairs have so much power in endo application process. Yes, the rule of thumb is taking the first offer you have and dont look back.

 

[MidwestOwl]

Used to be perhaps the best program in the country. It’s really taken a turn for the worse (the whole school has)

not sure about the best...people dont like UNC that much because of the 3-year....when you are in your third year, you basically are there to teach the predoc for free...Fouad used to be chair at UNC?? i think his research on diabetes and random systemic stuffs affect endo got old after a while..
people need to know that the strength of the program also depends on how good medicaid of the state is...Penn has good everything but lacks patients...you cant learn endo on manekins...

 

[MidwestOwl]

I'm not here to tear down other candidates. And like I said, I'm not against fresh grads getting spots. But more is required clinically of an endodontist than just beautiful endo. There are certain skills that only experience, even of just a few years, can teach. Again, not at all to say that fresh grads aren't deserving.

I have been involved with the application process for several cycles now (even after finishing my program) because either I have been approached by applicants looking for guidance/tips, or I have written letters of rec, or both, so I know the caliber of these specific people applying. These are people that I would be proud to call endo-colleagues. They have everything you listed and more. And then once the applications are submitted, not even a crow flies their way even after multiple cycles! Makes me wonder what is going on! That is the whole and sole reason for my frequent rants. Lol!

In the end, it is what it is. I count my blessings for being lucky enough to bag a spot when I did!

"I would be proud to call endo-colleagues"...some program directors, i wouldnt be proud to call them colleagues...Some are weird as hell...Luckily, now im not at their mercy any more...and make way more money than they do...I dont even bother to say hi to some of them at AAE. At least my director was nice

 

[Torshammer]

not sure about the best...people dont like UNC that much because of the 3-year....when you are in your third year, you basically are there to teach the predoc for free...Fouad used to be chair at UNC?? i think his research on diabetes and random systemic stuffs affect endo got old after a while..
people need to know that the strength of the program also depends on how good medicaid of the state is...Penn has good everything but lacks patients...you cant learn endo on manekins...

Whats the avg case number coming out of Penn?

 

[WannabeEndo]

Whats the avg case number coming out of Penn?

High 200s/low 300s, quota 250 but it might be increased soon

 

[UncleJoesVeneers]

yeah, i was a Harvard pre-doc...Harvard predoc is extremely competitive because most kids want to specialize and will eventually become specialists of their chosen specialties...HSDM only gives out gold and silver medals to the number #1 and #2 from their class of 35. on paper, everyone else is basically #3. HSDM doesnt disclose your ranks to program directors; as a result, it is easier to specialize. most classes have 30+/35 kids specialized. if you want to do OMFS, harvard is the place to go. When You have to do medical school classes with the med kids 1.5 - 2 years, you will ace that entrance exam easily.
Harvard postdoc programs are not good. underfunded, not enough faculty, etc. they also love to bring in foreign-trained dentists to be their faculty... OMFS might be prestigious because you get the MD from HMS. HSDM do not do much impactful research because faculty have to switch to other dental schools to get promoted easier. The medical school has a say in who get promoted to professors. You cant just publish "composite is better than amalgam" research and expect to be promote to full professor. I know quite a few faculty who stay associate professors at HSDM for 20+ years while their residents become full professors at other dental schools in 10 years
Harvard post-doc are so desperate that they have to take random people from howard/ temple to be their residents...when i applied, harvard average DAT at that time was 23 with GPA 3.8, , Howard 17 DAT and 3.0...now suddenly, those Howard kids become "harvard" material???, so laughable

My endo program won't interview any HSDM graduates. There is definitely a stigma concerning their clinical abilities and for just being an OMS factory.

 

[redchesus]

"I would be proud to call endo-colleagues"...some program directors, i wouldnt be proud to call them colleagues...Some are weird as hell...Luckily, now im not at their mercy any more...and make way more money than they do...I dont even bother to say hi to some of them at AAE. At least my director was nice

Honestly same... now having gone through 3 application cycles (1 as an applicant, 2 as a resident), the whole thing has just left a bad taste in my mouth: the favoritism, the competition between PDs, the gamification like it's a fantasy football league, the egos... blegghh. My PD is a really good PD but this is one aspect of him I'm not really fond of.

 

[MidwestOwl]

My endo program won't interview any HSDM graduates. There is definitely a stigma concerning their clinical abilities and for just being an OMS factory.

To be fair, when i was in dental school, we only started doing some dentistry perhaps 3 months before the end of second year. i still remember, I didnt even know what mesial is at that time...Columbia and Uconn dental kids take medical class but they are not actually med students. HSDM kids are meds students the first 1.5 - 2 years. we take the same classes, same exams, same grading, and in the same lecture halls with med kids..there were only 1=2 ethics courses that we did not have to do. we had to go to hospital to interview patients, listen to their heart their lungs, do physical exams on patients just like the med students. Once in a while, we had kids leave dental school to apply to medical school because they found out that they like medicine more.. I did like the medical classes more when i was there..
we had to do random stuffs such as rectal exams on patients to "get" cleared by the medical school to finish second year of the medical school portion. it is not the lack of handskills, it is just that we had to do too much medical school stuffs the first 2 years. HSDM students basically do 4 years of dentistry in 2 or 2.5 years. it used to be a 5 year DMD program at HSDM. hsdm tend to send kids to sister schools such as Columbia, penn, UCLA, UIC.... some schools such as iowa, nebraska or usually the south dont know/ dont have any experience with us...we all match our first time...so it still works out at the end

 

[endo135]

Been through one cycle as an applicant and one as a first yr resident. I notice the same things. I try to tell everyone applying its never what you said/did. You have no idea who youre competing against. The favoritism, promised acceptances, donations from alumni, etc.

 

[MidwestOwl]

Unfortunately the handful of HDSM graduates I've worked with have not proved this stigma wrong...

To be fair, when i was in dental school, we only start doing some dentistry perhaps 3 months before the end of second year. i still remember, I didnt even know what mesial is at that time...Columbia and Uconn dental kids take medical school classes but they are not treated as med students. HSDM kids are meds students the first 1.5 - 2 years. we take the same classes, same exams, same grading, and in the same lecture halls with med kids..there were only 1=2 ethics courses that we did not have to do. we had to go to hospital to interview patients, listen to their heart their lungs, do physical exams on patients just like the med students. Once in a while, we had kids leave dental school to apply to medical school because they found out that they like medicine more.. I did like the medical classes more when i was there..
we had to do random stuffs such as rectal exams on patients to "get" cleared by the medical school to finish second year of the medical school portion. it is not the lack of handskills, it is just that we had to do too much medical school stuffs the first 2 years. HSDM students basically do 4 years of dentistry in 2 or 2.5 years. it used to be a 5 year DMD program at HSDM. hsdm tend to send kids to sister schools such as Columbia, penn, UCLA, UIC.... some schools such as iowa, nebraska or usually the south dont know/ dont have any experience with us...we all match our first time...so it still works out at the end
I would say a few kids in the class of 35 chose HSDm because they want to do big things, saving the world from caries???. The rest just want a guaranteed acceptance to very competitive specialties just like OMFS, endo, ortho...

 

[AAdentist]

Anyone here knows anything about case western university? Regarding how they pick their residents in state? 10 yrs plus experience? Heavy on research ? International?

 

[UncleJoesVeneers]

To be fair, when i was in dental school, we only started doing some dentistry perhaps 3 months before the end of second year. i still remember, I didnt even know what mesial is at that time...Columbia and Uconn dental kids take medical class but they are not actually med students. HSDM kids are meds students the first 1.5 - 2 years. we take the same classes, same exams, same grading, and in the same lecture halls with med kids..there were only 1=2 ethics courses that we did not have to do. we had to go to hospital to interview patients, listen to their heart their lungs, do physical exams on patients just like the med students. Once in a while, we had kids leave dental school to apply to medical school because they found out that they like medicine more.. I did like the medical classes more when i was there..
we had to do random stuffs such as rectal exams on patients to "get" cleared by the medical school to finish second year of the medical school portion. it is not the lack of handskills, it is just that we had to do too much medical school stuffs the first 2 years. HSDM students basically do 4 years of dentistry in 2 or 2.5 years. it used to be a 5 year DMD program at HSDM. hsdm tend to send kids to sister schools such as Columbia, penn, UCLA, UIC.... some schools such as iowa, nebraska or usually the south dont know/ dont have any experience with us...we all match our first time...so it still works out at the end

I was admitted to HSDM and turned it down for my state school. My belief is that the people who self-select to apply and are admitted to HSDM, Columbia, Penn, etc. are just as capable of specializing from other schools. I spent some time later at HSDM and was pretty shocked at how students basically learn a “competency” in two weeks and they then allow them to do that procedure on real people. It’s not the way most schools do it.

Just like most schools don’t have 1/2 their class apply to OMS. It’s not that HSDM is better at getting people into OMS, it’s a selection bias.

 

[futureedndodontist]

For international dentists,
for which schools you think that they have a better chance in endo residency program?

 

[MidwestOwl]

I was admitted to HSDM and turned it down for my state school. My belief is that the people who self-select to apply and are admitted to HSDM, Columbia, Penn, etc. are just as capable of specializing from other schools. I spent some time later at HSDM and was pretty shocked at how students basically learn a “competency” in two weeks and they then allow them to do that procedure on real people. It’s not the way most schools do it.

Just like most schools don’t have 1/2 their class apply to OMS. It’s not that HSDM is better at getting people into OMS, it’s a selection bias.

I think people chose HSDM because of the pass/ fail. OMS training is brutal and they have to work hard to finish it, HSDM or not. Some of my classmates bluntly told people that they want to do ortho because they like the lifestyle, money, they dont like blood or whiny patients, etc...at other schools, you have to be in top 10% or so to have a good chance.
as a slow learner, I will constantly get C in handskills pre-clinically if i have to master them too fast... I was much better in clinics though. At HSDM, 70ish is a pass, a 90 is also a pass...so it is definitely easier...there are multiple ways to get things in life...some just take HSDM because they believe it is easier to match...
I did not have a green card at that time...all other schools would not give me a loan without a US cosigner. harvard, the university not the dental school, did let me borrow 250k to finish school no question asked.... I dont like my experience at HSDM because of some nasty faculty. However, i wouldnt have my DMD without that money. I do love HMS and I still think I do owe the big university a big favor...

 

[MidwestOwl]

Honestly same... now having gone through 3 application cycles (1 as an applicant, 2 as a resident), the whole thing has just left a bad taste in my mouth: the favoritism, the competition between PDs, the gamification like it's a fantasy football league, the egos... blegghh. My PD is a really good PD but this is one aspect of him I'm not really fond of.

I know the state schools such as Texas, WVU, VCU to name a few, dont like the Ivy grads.. they invited me to their residency interviews but i dont think they have much interest in me. .i highly doubt that after an endo residency, a kid who finished dental school with 2 RCTs will be that much inferior to the kids that finished with 10. when the state school kids come to Ivy for interview...we dont rank them well. it is an eye for an eye...I fight for HSDM grads and tutor them the first few months as needed...it is a world of nepotism for sure

 

[Lasvegaspreendo]

I know the state schools such as Texas, WVU, VCU to name a few people dont like the Ivy grads.. they invited me to their residency interviews but i dont think they have much interest in me. .i highly doubt that after an endo residency, a kid who finished dental school with 2 RCTs will be that much inferior to the kids that finished with 10. when the state school kids come to Ivy for interview...we dont rank them well. it is an eye for an eye...I fight for HSDM grads and tutor them the first few months as needed...it is a world of nepotism for sure

I still just am floored that kids with 10 RCTs get in- 10 is so few cases, and they’re all simple cases. How would you know you like doing endos if all you’ve done are straightforward teeth on straightforward patients.
I’ve done ~200 cases since graduating last year and I still have moments where I question if endo is right for me. Retreats, highly calcified, curved second molars, open apices are all pretty tough the first time around.

 

[BW790]

Had a good run this cycle with 0 interviews lol Looking into taking the ADAT for next years cycle. If anyone who took the ADAT still has their B&B dental textbook and is willing to share a digital copy, please PM me! Thanks and congrats to everyone who was able to snag a spot this year! Good luck to the rest of us for next year 🥲

 

[MidwestOwl]

Had a good run this cycle with 0 interviews lol Looking into taking the ADAT for next years cycle. If anyone who took the ADAT still has their B&B dental textbook and is willing to share a digital copy, please PM me! Thanks and congrats to everyone who was able to snag a spot this year! Good luck to the rest of us for next year 🥲

schools tend to give courtesy interviews to their dental school students or residents...did you apply to the endo program at your dental school or at your GPR/ AEGD????

 

[MidwestOwl]

I still just am floored that kids with 10 RCTs get in- 10 is so few cases, and they’re all simple cases. How would you know you like doing endos if all you’ve done are straightforward teeth on straightforward patients.
I’ve done ~200 cases since graduating last year and I still have moments where I question if endo is right for me. Retreats, highly calcified, curved second molars, open apices are all pretty tough the first time around.

you can say the same thing about those in OMFS, ortho...or even dentistry. if ortho doesnt have good lifestyle or OMFS doesnt pay that well, quite a few of those guys wouldnt pick those residencies. I want to do endo because of the money... general dentistry, you have to upsell a lot. those cases might look scary to you at this point, but after a residency and a few years of pratice, all will become routine. at the end of the day, numbers/ stats will trump everything. Programs like to look good, they love to tell people about how academically good their residents are...when you have the numbers and know how to play the games, you will get in somewhere. If you dont have the stats, you have to rely on connections....

 

[MidwestOwl]

My endo program won't interview any HSDM graduates. There is definitely a stigma concerning their clinical abilities and for just being an OMS factory.

the funny thing.. Einstein did accept a lower classwoman from HSDM into their program 3-4 years ago. she was out for 5-6 year though...i guess after a few years...we are not that bad any more

 

[rb19]

To all those that are feeling down about this cycle, keep your head up. I know hearing someone say that makes you want to tell me to, "go kick rocks." I get it. I am there with you. I've done an AEGD, been published, practicing 5 years, shadowed and the works. This was my 3rd cycle. Making it a grand total of 72 rejections in that time. Guess what? Doesn't matter. I will be back next year and I hope you all will too. Don't give up. We got this.

 

[Endo76]

Good luck to all those who are still waiting to hear back from Endo programs! Here to share a little bit of hope. If an acceptance does not come this cycle for you, I would highly recommend researching Montefiore's Endodontic Fellowship in NY.
This is a PGY-2 program (so you must complete a GPR or AEGD first.) This fellowship is a 1 year program where you will complete many cases (I've done over 200 within the year.) The attending is an Endodontist who really has a love for teaching. So far, nearly all who have applied after this fellowship have been accepted into an Endo program or are currently applying. A lot of Endo programs have heard about this fellowship and seem extremely interested in candidates from here. If this is something you're interested in, you can PM me or send an email to [email protected]

 

[LFA20]

To be fair, when i was in dental school, we only start doing some dentistry perhaps 3 months before the end of second year. i still remember, I didnt even know what mesial is at that time...Columbia and Uconn dental kids take medical school classes but they are not treated as med students. HSDM kids are meds students the first 1.5 - 2 years. we take the same classes, same exams, same grading, and in the same lecture halls with med kids..there were only 1=2 ethics courses that we did not have to do. we had to go to hospital to interview patients, listen to their heart their lungs, do physical exams on patients just like the med students. Once in a while, we had kids leave dental school to apply to medical school because they found out that they like medicine more.. I did like the medical classes more when i was there..
we had to do random stuffs such as rectal exams on patients to "get" cleared by the medical school to finish second year of the medical school portion. it is not the lack of handskills, it is just that we had to do too much medical school stuffs the first 2 years. HSDM students basically do 4 years of dentistry in 2 or 2.5 years. it used to be a 5 year DMD program at HSDM. hsdm tend to send kids to sister schools such as Columbia, penn, UCLA, UIC.... some schools such as iowa, nebraska or usually the south dont know/ dont have any experience with us...we all match our first time...so it still works out at the end
I would say a few kids in the class of 35 chose HSDm because they want to do big things, saving the world from caries???. The rest just want a guaranteed acceptance to very competitive specialties just like OMFS, endo, ortho...

I was admitted to HSDM and turned it down for my state school. My belief is that the people who self-select to apply and are admitted to HSDM, Columbia, Penn, etc. are just as capable of specializing from other schools. I spent some time later at HSDM and was pretty shocked at how students basically learn a “competency” in two weeks and they then allow them to do that procedure on real people. It’s not the way most schools do it.

Just like most schools don’t have 1/2 their class apply to OMS. It’s not that HSDM is better at getting people into OMS, it’s a selection bias.

I have no doubt that those kids who got accepted to Ivy League schools will have no issues acing the didactic classes at any state dental school. However, the hard part about specializing from these state schools is that you have to be good clinically as well in sim lab. As you go to your second year the number of dental lab classes will start to outweigh the didactic science classes and even just getting a B in one of these classes will hurt you immensely with your rank. Third and fourth year is also based on the number of clinical cases you complete.

I think most people will be fine after practicing for a few years regardless of the school they went to. But drilling on real teeth is a lot more forgiving than plastic teeth(you can see every single imperfection and roughness with the latter).

 

[MidwestOwl]

I have no doubt that those kids who got accepted to Ivy League schools will have no issues acing the didactic classes at any state dental school. However, the hard part about specializing from these state schools is that you have to be good clinically as well in sim lab. As you go to your second year the number of dental lab classes will start to outweigh the didactic science classes and even just getting a B in one of these classes will hurt you immensely with your rank. Third and fourth year is also based on the number of clinical cases you complete.

I think most people will be fine after practicing for a few years regardless of the school they went to. But drilling on real teeth is a lot more forgiving than plastic teeth(you can see every single imperfection and roughness with the latter).

that is the reason why i said kids at hsdm kind of "cheated" the system by not having to worry about ranking...HSDM is expensive and most of those kids have options to go somewhere cheaper...they chose HSDm for a reason - they just wanted an easier route to specialize
One thing about HSDm is they dont spoon feed you that much compared to state school. you have to teach yourself a lot. They also do not have enough faculty to teach dental students separately; as a result, if the medical school skips or poorly teaches a class, the dental students have to teach themselves everything.
The medical school is also not very good at teaching because they love to ask physicians to teach basic science course...let me tell you, those guys are lousy at teaching. in my year, the medical school kind of skipped pharmacology...as a result, i had to teach myself pharm. I was in school when NBDE was still graded and you have to get 90 to have a shot t those competitive specialty... It is not easy to pass medical school courses and then do well on dental board... to be honest, you dont have to be A/ A+ students to do endo, ortho or even oral surgery. You have to be A+ students because those programs can afford to be picky...

HSDM kids have a stigma that they are not good at handskills. that is not true...they just have 2.5 years to do what other kids have 4 years to do. I was bad at drilling on plastic teeth because they were soo soft...we also had like 6 weeks from the first time that we touch the handpieces to the time we have to take competency. I would constantly get c or d if i did my dental school at a non P/F school. I didnt have much problems with real teeth

I think many people on SDN make a big deal out of the dental school graduation requirement. they also tend to believe that lack of experience cant be remedied with time and practice. Im doing about 1000 RCTs per year as specialist.. i highly doubt that the number of RCTs that I did as dental student would make or break me

 

[BW790]

schools tend to give courtesy interviews to their dental school students or residents...did you apply to the endo program at your dental school or at your GPR/ AEGD????

I actually went to my dental school the week before the cycle opened to meet/shadow the residents. Spoke with the faculty member on staff that day and felt like I left a great impression on everyone, but still didn’t get an invite. So hoping the ADAT will at least help me get my foot in the door next year and personality help me secure a spot!

 

[WannabeEndo]

I actually went to my dental school the week before the cycle opened to meet/shadow the residents. Spoke with the faculty member on staff that day and felt like I left a great impression on everyone, but still didn’t get an invite. So hoping the ADAT will at least help me get my foot in the door next year and personality help me secure a spot!

Definitely keep going back in there! Show them you’re not only interested, but passionate and committed even if you don’t get in right away