UCLA (full COA) vs UC Davis (scholarship)

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akc142412

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Hey everyone,

Looking for opinions on these schools.

UCD:
  • $25k merit scholarship (minimum) per year
  • closest to my family and even closer my SO's family
  • really enjoyed the staff and faculty on interview day, wasn't able to attend 2nd look due to work
  • P/F (same as UCLA) but might be easier to get AOA? (currently interested in fairly competitive specialty)

UCLA:
  • no scholarship offered, aside from $10k for the first year that everyone gets
  • still have lots of extended family in the SoCal area
  • really liked the students I interacted with on interview day, didn't really get a feel for staff/faculty, and accepted from WL so I wasnt invited to 2nd look
  • better reputation (?) and better hospital (RR)
  • more research opportunities (i think?)
  • SO would prefer LA area, but is willing to move to Sacramento

Basically, trying to decide if UCLA is worth the $100k + interest after 4 years. My family doesn't have money, so I will be taking out loans to finance anything I need. Part of me thinks that UCLA will better set me up for residency, but would that be worth the extra debt?

Thanks to everyone in advance!

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I don't know much about California, but I did want to address one point: don't make the mistake of thinking it will be easier to get a high class rank at UC Davis, as that will set you up for disappointment. As long as neither school is graded based on a curve, your class rank will be much more about your own work ethic and your ability to maintain a high performance (without wavering) over a period of years.

I, personally, would go to UCLA (just based on the name and the hospitals they are associated with).
 
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I don't know much about California, but I did want to address one point: don't make the mistake of thinking it will be easier to get a high class rank at UC Davis, as that will set you up for disappointment. As long as neither school is graded based on a curve, your class rank will be much more about your own work ethic and your ability to maintain a high performance (without wavering) over a period of years.

I, personally, would go to UCLA.
Thanks. Yeah, I don't doubt the caliber of students that will be my classmates at UCD, but my perception is that, despite both institutions being P/F, the students at UCLA will be more competitive than at UCD.
 
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Agree with above poster it's not going to be easier to do well at UCD (or at least I wouldn't assume that going in and include it in the calculus for the decision.

That being said I'd still probably go to UCD. I get people on here love UCLA, and yes it is a great school, but where you end up next will be much more a function of what you did in med school than where you went (at least based on residency director ratings). Plus, UCD isn't a shabby school, but 100k+ interest is a lot of money.
 
Being close to family, your SO's family, and saving $100k of debt are hard factors to beat. UCLA is a top 20 medical school with Ronald Reagan and a large research endowment. It really is a choice of practicality vs. prestige. I agree with the post above in that your residency program prestige will be much more influential on your career.

UCD has a class size of ~100 as opposed to ~185 at UCLA, so you'll get more personalized attention/access to your program director and professors for residency LORs. The merit scholarship will be a great start to set you apart from your class, especially since the first two years are P/NP. Especially in obtaining a research position, the merit scholarship (as with most Regent Scholarships during undergrad for the UC system) will serve as a foot in the door for top benchwork.

With everything that has been said, I would choose UCD in your position.
 
What is the absolute cost of each school for you? I don't think $100k total should be enough for the scholarship to Davis to sway you if you really want to come to UCLA, but if we're talking $100k total at Davis vs $200k total at UCLA then that's another story although I still think it would be worth it. We have a really great hospital system here with centers that run the gamut from community hospitals to trauma centers. Everyone is guaranteed a research stipend after first year (since you mentioned that's important to you). DGSOM also doesn't award junior AOA so that shouldn't even figure into your decision at all, it is announced at the beginning of 4th year based on board scores, clinical grades and extracurriculars. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions!
 
Being close to family, your SO's family, and saving $100k of debt are hard factors to beat. UCLA is a top 20 medical school with Ronald Reagan and a large research endowment. It really is a choice of practicality vs. prestige. I agree with the post above in that your residency program prestige will be much more influential on your career.

UCD has a class size of ~100 as opposed to ~185 at UCLA, so you'll get more personalized attention/access to your program director and professors for residency LORs. The merit scholarship will be a great start to set you apart from your class, especially since the first two years are P/NP. Especially in obtaining a research position, the merit scholarship (as with most Regent Scholarships during undergrad for the UC system) will serve as a foot in the door for top benchwork.

With everything that has been said, I would choose UCD in your position.
I agree with you that UCD seems like the more practical option, and that residency program prestige is much more important that med school... I guess I'm trying to figure out if UCLA's name/hospital/research and other such resources will significantly impact my chances to get the residency of my choice to a degree that justifies giving up the $25k per year. I'm leaning towards probably not, but I like hearing everyone's point-of-view in case I overlook something.

What is the absolute cost of each school for you? I don't think $100k total should be enough for the scholarship to Davis to sway you if you really want to come to UCLA, but if we're talking $100k total at Davis vs $200k total at UCLA then that's another story although I still think it would be worth it. We have a really great hospital system here with centers that run the gamut from community hospitals to trauma centers. Everyone is guaranteed a research stipend after first year (since you mentioned that's important to you). DGSOM also doesn't award junior AOA so that shouldn't even figure into your decision at all, it is announced at the beginning of 4th year based on board scores, clinical grades and extracurriculars. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions!
UCD would be about $140k, UCLA about $230k. I really do want to go to UCLA, but given my family finances and own fear of debt, giving up $100k (basically what my mom makes after 4 years) makes me feel selfish... I wouldn't feel so bad if I had a concrete reason to justify the sacrifice as a better spent investment though...
 
I agree with you that UCD seems like the more practical option, and that residency program prestige is much more important that med school... I guess I'm trying to figure out if UCLA's name/hospital/research and other such resources will significantly impact my chances to get the residency of my choice to a degree that justifies giving up the $25k per year. I'm leaning towards probably not, but I like hearing everyone's point-of-view in case I overlook something.


UCD would be about $140k, UCLA about $230k. I really do want to go to UCLA, but given my family finances and own fear of debt, giving up $100k (basically what my mom makes after 4 years) makes me feel selfish... I wouldn't feel so bad if I had a concrete reason to justify the sacrifice as a better spent investment though...

$100k in loans is going to be about $200k in payback due to interest. So you should decide based on the payback amount, and you can get exact numbers using the AAMC med loan calculator. Honestly, I think minimizing your debt is going to do a lot more for your life options than the prestige of UCLA. You'll feel free to take on longer training periods, lower paying specialties, academic positions with research involvements (these pay less), etc. Also, think about 10 years down the line, when you may be starting a family, buying a house, saving for retirement, or saving for kids' colleges. Your expenses are going to be a lot higher. There's a lot you could do with $200k.

I think it's hard for you to think of a concrete reason because there really isn't one. Look at the top residency programs and their current residents. A good portion will match from non-top schools. Also, http://www.siumed.edu/oec/Year4/References/NRMP PDSurvey 2012.pdf Check out figure 2. "Graduate of highly regarded medical school" comes a lot lower down the list than you might expect. Yes, prestige will give you a small edge, but is that edge worth $200k, when it's still possible for you to match well from UCD? Residency placement is more individually determined than school determined.

Have faith in yourself that you are capable of succeeding and achieving your goals from either school. The fact that you got into UCLA and got a scholarship from UCD imply that you're capable of doing very well wherever you go. 🙂

Good luck with your decision!
 
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$100k in loans is going to be about $200k in payback due to interest. So you should decide based on the payback amount, and you can get exact numbers using the AAMC med loan calculator. Honestly, I think minimizing your debt is going to do a lot more for your life options than the prestige of UCLA. You'll feel free to take on longer training periods, lower paying specialties, academic positions with research involvements (these pay less), etc. Also, think about 10 years down the line, when you may be starting a family, buying a house, saving for retirement, or saving for kids' colleges. Your expenses are going to be a lot higher. There's a lot you could do with $200k.

I think it's hard for you to think of a concrete reason because there really isn't one. Look at the top residency programs and their current residents. A good portion will match from non-top schools. Also, http://www.siumed.edu/oec/Year4/References/NRMP PDSurvey 2012.pdf Check out figure 2. "Graduate of highly regarded medical school" comes a lot lower down the list than you might expect. Yes, prestige will give you a small edge, but is that edge worth $200k, when it's still possible for you to match well from UCD? Residency placement is more individually determined than school determined.

Have faith in yourself that you are capable of succeeding and achieving your goals from either school. The fact that you got into UCLA and got a scholarship from UCD imply that you're capable of doing very well wherever you go. 🙂

Good luck with your decision!
Agree wholeheartedly with what's been said here. I have nothing really to add other than the fact that the residency you get is more based on you, not the school you go to (when comparing these two schools). Both UCD and UCLA have the baseline level of resources to get any residency you want, it's up to you to grab them. You can also put the scholarship name on your resume to kind of justify your choice.

I understand the heartache not choosing UCLA...but don't forget the heartache of paying $150-200k in loans back down the road.
 
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that your school name definitely does matter for residency applications. If you look at the match lists between schools, most of the time the you'll see students at the lower tier school match at some top residency programs. But the number of students matching to these programs is typically lower. So yes, you can probably match to anywhere from either school, and it really is largely dependent on how you perform and not what school you went to, but your application is probably going to have to be beefier if you are coming from a less prestigious school.
 
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that your school name definitely does matter for residency applications. If you look at the match lists between schools, most of the time the you'll see students at the lower tier school match at some top residency programs. But the number of students matching to these programs is typically lower. So yes, you can probably match to anywhere from either school, and it really is largely dependent on how you perform and not what school you went to, but your application is probably going to have to be beefier if you are coming from a less prestigious school.

Just want to go against that assessment for a moment. I think the conclusion that school name matters is predicated upon a lot correlations actually being causative relationships. It absolutely may be true to some degree, but there are just so many potential other explanations, too much uncertainty that can rationally be explained by other mechanisms, that I don't know I'd give it that much weight:

1) You don't know about selection bias at the school level. AKA how many people who got into UCD got into UCLA? If UCLA is taking a "better" student on average, and the "better" student has a better chance at matching at a top residency (better can mean more motivated to study, smarter, whatever you think matters and is selected for by medical schools) then the school might have had little to do with the residency acceptance - their match list may just be a reflection that they got "better people" to begin with. As such, the trend of seeing not as many students from "lower" tier med schools could have to do with the fact that they are getting less talent to begin with, getting people who wouldn't have been competitive for those top residencies no matter what, not because the schools are putting them at a disadvantage. This would mean that the school is a covariate but not a significant moderator. As such, if somebody who got into UCLA went to a "lower" tier they wouldn't be at a disadvantage applying to residency programs because, as stated, the school effect isn't real but a manifestation of selection bias upon entering medical school.

2) When comparing match lists it's hard to say that people want the same things at different schools. People going to "lower" tier schools may not apply in the same numbers to certain residency positions. Really, you'd want to look at the percentage of people getting their first choice (or one of their top 3 choices, etc) for residency - I'm guessing in that case many schools we see as so different because of match list would be much more similar. In this case again the candidates, not the school dictate the outcome.

3) As it was mentioned, the residency directors survey would suggest that school prestige is relatively far down on the list of things that matter. Is doing better on a measure that is listed by the decision-makers themselves as only being somewhat important really worth over 100k?

Also for the record, I just want to reiterate that while I think those statements hold true for most places, this situation isn't even comparing a no-name-new-low-tier school to Harvard - UCD seems like a solid mid-tier and UCLA, while absolutely great and well known, isn't (outside of the west coast/mountain west) going to blow everybody's mind like the Hopkins/Harvard brand would anyway.
 
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Just wanted to add one thing that someone who was in a similar position told me--"Giving up the name of PrestigiousSchool stung a bit, but I think paying back the additional loans for 15-20 years would have stung more. I realized I would get over losing the name prestige a lot faster than I would get over paying back the loans."
 
Just want to go against that assessment for a moment. I think the conclusion that school name matters is predicated upon a lot correlations actually being causative relationships. It absolutely may be true to some degree, but there are just so many potential other explanations, too much uncertainty that can rationally be explained by other mechanisms, that I don't know I'd give it that much weight:

1) You don't know about selection bias at the school level. AKA how many people who got into UCD got into UCLA? If UCLA is taking a "better" student on average, and the "better" student has a better chance at matching at a top residency (better can mean more motivated to study, smarter, whatever you think matters and is selected for by medical schools) then the school might have had little to do with the residency acceptance - their match list may just be a reflection that they got "better people" to begin with. As such, the trend of seeing not as many students from "lower" tier med schools could have to do with the fact that they are getting less talent to begin with, getting people who wouldn't have been competitive for those top residencies no matter what, not because the schools are putting them at a disadvantage. This would mean that the school is a covariate but not a significant moderator. As such, if somebody who got into UCLA went to a "lower" tier they wouldn't be at a disadvantage applying to residency programs because, as stated, the school effect isn't real but a manifestation of selection bias upon entering medical school.

2) When comparing match lists it's hard to say that people want the same things at different schools. People going to "lower" tier schools may not apply in the same numbers to certain residency positions. Really, you'd want to look at the percentage of people getting their first choice (or one of their top 3 choices, etc) for residency - I'm guessing in that case many schools we see as so different because of match list would be much more similar. In this case again the candidates, not the school dictate the outcome.

3) As it was mentioned, the residency directors survey would suggest that school prestige is relatively far down on the list of things that matter. Is doing better on a measure that is listed by the decision-makers themselves as only being somewhat important really worth over 100k?

Also for the record, I just want to reiterate that while I think those statements hold true for most places, this situation isn't even comparing a no-name-new-low-tier school to Harvard - UCD seems like a solid mid-tier and UCLA, while absolutely great and well known, isn't (outside of the west coast/mountain west) going to blow everybody's mind like the Hopkins/Harvard brand would anyway.

I want to believe that all of this is true, because logically it makes perfect sense, but I just don't. People often get rejected from highly ranked schools just because their ECs aren't anything special, even if their numbers are just as good if not better, suggesting that "talent" may not be all that different. Although program directors say that school prestige doesn't rank that highly when considering applicants, you have to remember, that's on a conscious level. Whenever someone hears that someone else went to a brand name med school, they think "oooh nice", or something along those lines, and that really is at a subconscious, reactionary level.

I'm not saying that $100k is worth whatever extra prestige you get from going to one school over another. What I am saying is that it's a little naive and possibly wishful thinking to think the name of your medical school doesn't factor into residency decisions, even if the people making those decisions tell you it doesn't.
 
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I want to believe that all of this is true, because logically it makes perfect sense, but I just don't. People often get rejected from highly ranked schools just because their ECs aren't anything special, even if their numbers are just as good if not better, suggesting that "talent" may not be all that different. Although program directors say that school prestige doesn't rank that highly when considering applicants, you have to remember, that's on a conscious level. Whenever someone hears that someone else went to a brand name med school, they think "oooh nice", or something along those lines, and that really is at a subconscious, reactionary level.

I'm not saying that $100k is worth whatever extra prestige you get from going to one school over another. What I am saying is that it's a little naive and possibly wishful thinking to think the name of your medical school doesn't factor into residency decisions, even if the people making those decisions tells you it doesn't.

Really I just wanted to point out doubt in this case given the variables we have. In my book, to pay 100K extra the p better be less than .05 on prestige mattering, and it better be by a clinically significant magnitude as well. There is way too much doubt in this case, to me, to meet that threshold.

Speaking more generally, I'm not one of those people with my head in the clouds that thinks "as long as you have an MD everybody is looked at the same!!" I'm aware that name can matter. Just look at the list of Rhodes Scholars - there is a reason each year the plurality of the ones from the US come from Harvard and Yale (and it's often not because those students are actually "better" than the kid from the University of Chicago).

I agree that places like Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford, etc, will open doors in medicine (academic med, certain residency positions, etc) as well as outside (consulting, policy gigs where the public recognition of a school's name will matter, etc). I would actually be willing to say they are worth some (debatable whether that's 100k, but that's for another talk) extra money assuming one's goals are something that the Harvard, Hopkin, Stanford, etc name provides marginal value in reaching (aka running for political office, going into academic med at a Harvard-affiliate, etc). I also think "better" schools can provide resources - whether financial or simply a culture - that can make "succeeding" (using getting a spot in a prestigious residency, etc as the definition for succeed) more feasible. In this way, there are mechanisms I can conceive of where "better," wealthier schools provide the average student at their respective institution, all else being equal and incoming individual characteristics similar, more opportunities for success than some other schools can offer their students.

However, I think, in this case, even if the aforementioned pathways were taken to be mechanisms that affected outcomes beyond that reasonable doubt I mentioned earlier it still isn't worth 100k because (referring to the former point) UCLA isn't Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford, etc and (referring to the latter point) I still think a talented individuals can equalize the playing field with individual characteristics if you're comparing schools like UCD and UCLA.

TL;DR I actually do agree with you that we live in a world where prestige matters for outcomes and not just feel goods in some cases. I do, however, doubt that many of the cases where we think prestige mattered isn't actually a confounding variable (individual characteristics, etc) creating the effect we see, and I don't think the mechanism by which UCLA's prestige would actually affect any future outcomes is clear at all in this case, and certainly beyond 100k worth of doubt.
 
I would like to know too. I'm making a similar decision right now and it would be helpful to hear what you chose and why
 
Similar situation. I chose UCD because I want to try out sacramento (I've lived in So-Cal before),smaller class size, close to the teaching hospital, free clinics, the education building was nicer (yes it did help sway me to UCD), impressions I received from administrators and students, and I'm interested in public policy so being close to the capitol may help in obtaining some public policy knowledge and experience.
Overall I feel UCD is a better fit for me personally and the logical choice, but UCLA was my dream school.
 
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