UW vs. Cornell

[GeorgeChan]

Hey SDN -- I'm lucky to be deciding between the University of Washington and Cornell but have been stuck on this decision for a while. Hoping to get some advice here please!! Any thoughts/advice/suggestions would be really appreciated!

A bit about me: I've lived in Seattle for most of my life and went to undergrad at UW. I've been doing global/public health research at the UW for the past three years and want to continue during med school. I'm not set on where I want to end up (location-wise) for my residency but will probably go into IM. Later down the road, I'd like to get into health policy at the gov't level.

UW:
+ Great public health opportunities (I worked in the Global Health dept for three years and know them well)
+ Cheaper tuition and living costs
- I've been in Seattle for 18 years and would love to leave

Cornell:
+ Not as much public health research but what they have is very policy-oriented
+ NYC is a hub for international health organizations
+ Get to create a new network of faculty, friends, etc.
- Approx $100k more expensive over four years

I think UW is the safe option for me whereas Cornell is a bit of a risky, gut feeling, so my main questions are:
1. Are there any advantages (clinically, professionally) to attending Cornell over UW?
2. If so, are those advantages plus the personal gain of going to a new place worth the extra $100k?

I really appreciate the help!

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[Serous Demilune]

There is no residency you can't get into from UW that you would be able to from Cornell, even if you wanted to end up in the Northeast. Save your money and go to UW.

 

[Señor Científico]

You're in a great position so know that whatever choice you make will be a good one.

That being said, I'd go with UW. I'm in a similar situation in that I'll be attending a school OOS because I've lived in the same city my entire life and I think it's worth it to get out. However, for me it's going to be about $20K more over 4 years and the school is a much higher caliber than my options in state; I see the $20k as an investment for a stronger education that will lead to better residency options.

I agree with the above post that UW and Cornell are comparable, as are NYC and Seattle. I'd save the $100k + interest and keep the Northeast as a possibility for residency.

 

[Earl Simmons]

I would save the money and go to UW, then go wherever you want for residency

 

[GeorgeChan]

Thanks for the comments guys!

But what if we take cost out of the decision? Would people still say UW? I want to do research too, so I'm wondering if starting research at a new place (Cornell) four years earlier would be worth anything.

 

[mistoffelees]

Being a MS-4 who matched this year from New York, let me just tell you that the west coast market (especially Seattle/UW) is very hard to break into right now coming from the east coast, unless you are an excellent student in medical school. If you have a strong desire to return to the west coast for residency, I would highly advise you to just stay at UW. If you go to the east coast, being a Washington resident/having family there would give you some leverage in the residency match for the west coast, but not much. Essentially, to return you will need to be in the upper half/quarter of your class at Cornell, but I'm fairly certain you could be in the middle of the pack or below at UW to continue staying on the west coast for residency. I personally think you can come to the east coast any time for training down the road (residency, fellowship, attending...etc.) since there are so many institutions and positions, but if being on the west coast for residency is something that you value, I would take the UW spot and continue to build on the connections that you have already made at your home institution.

 

[North meets South]

Thanks for the comments guys!

But what if we take cost out of the decision? Would people still say UW? I want to do research too, so I'm wondering if starting research at a new place (Cornell) four years earlier would be worth anything.

I don't know if you can take the cost out of it. $100k is a significant difference and unless you know for sure you want to get away from Washington for a period of time or you definitely know you want to end up on the east coast, you should probably go to UW.

Being a MS-4 who matched this year from New York, let me just tell you that the west coast market (especially Seattle/UW) is very hard to break into right now coming from the east coast, unless you are an excellent student in medical school. If you have a strong desire to return to the west coast for residency, I would highly advise you to just stay at UW. If you go to the east coast, being a Washington resident/having family there would give you some leverage in the residency match for the west coast, but not much. Essentially, to return you will need to be in the upper half/quarter of your class at Cornell, but I'm fairly certain you could be in the middle of the pack or below at UW to continue staying on the west coast for residency. I personally think you can come to the east coast any time for training down the road (residency, fellowship, attending...etc.) since there are so many institutions and positions, but if being on the west coast for residency is something that you value, I would take the UW spot and continue to build on the connections that you have already made at your home institution.

He grew up in Seattle, did undergrad at UW, worked at UW for a few years, and will likely end up at UW for medical school. East coast residencies are going to give him a lot of *poop* for that. He'll have a much easier time convincing residencies he wants to return to the west coast after 4-5 years at Cornell than the other way around.

 

[pink/\floyd]

I vote for UW! It is well respected and 100K is significant!

 

[mistoffelees]

He grew up in Seattle, did undergrad at UW, worked at UW for a few years, and will likely end up at UW for medical school. East coast residencies are going to give him a lot of *poop* for that. He'll have a much easier time convincing residencies he wants to return to the west coast after 4-5 years at Cornell than the other way around.

I still disagree. A significant issue at stake here is the sheer number of training spots for residencies, fellowships, and attending positions on the Northeast vs. that in Seattle or (if we expand the geographic region) in NorCal (if you add SoCal that will give you much more spots than Seattle/NorCal). Looking at how things went this past season, even being from the west coast and having done undergrad and having family on the west coast is no longer a sufficient pull for west coast residencies even at top tier east coast med schools unless you are a top quartile/top half candidate, especially if you are applying for competitive residencies. I still maintain that if going to a west coast residency is very important to the OP, I believe any advantage he could get out of Cornell is still eclipsed by the lower in-state cost and the geographic advantage at UW. Obviously, he could go to Cornell and be a rockstar med student and match whereever he desires, but I'm basically advocating this point as more of an insurance if he wants it (and anyhow, if he is a fantastic med student at UW I don't see why he would have any trouble matching in the northeast either).

 

[GeorgeChan]

Thanks for the thoughts, guys. For residencies, I know that I'll probably want to do academic internal medicine, but I'm not leaning toward either coast in particular, so I guess I'd look for whichever school ends up with more options. I'm guessing there are more top tier residency programs on the east coast...?

I understand the emphasis on residency but what about the value of the 4-5 years of med school in itself? Med school isn't ONLY a means to an end, right?

Finally, I'm also basing my decision on the public health and health policy work that I could do at each school. Do you guys think there's even enough time to do research that I should be weighing the research component heavily? And I know UW has great public health research (I worked there for a few years) so for my future in health policy, what do you guys think of expanding my network into the NY scene vs. strengthening my existing ties in Seattle?

Really appreciate all the help!

 

[mdeast]

Being a MS-4 who matched this year from New York, let me just tell you that the west coast market (especially Seattle/UW) is very hard to break into right now coming from the east coast, unless you are an excellent student in medical school. If you have a strong desire to return to the west coast for residency, I would highly advise you to just stay at UW. If you go to the east coast, being a Washington resident/having family there would give you some leverage in the residency match for the west coast, but not much. Essentially, to return you will need to be in the upper half/quarter of your class at Cornell, but I'm fairly certain you could be in the middle of the pack or below at UW to continue staying on the west coast for residency. I personally think you can come to the east coast any time for training down the road (residency, fellowship, attending...etc.) since there are so many institutions and positions, but if being on the west coast for residency is something that you value, I would take the UW spot and continue to build on the connections that you have already made at your home institution.

I sort of disagree. Yes, with ultra competitive residencies that may only have 2-5 spots in Seattle (i.e. UWash only option)...Yes. It's hard. But most general specialties (Medicine, Peds, Family Med, etc.) you'd be able to find a Seattle position without too much trouble if you're coming from Cornell. There are lots of internal medicine training positions in Seattle (both in and outside of UWash). Plus, there are tons of programs in California of varying qualities.

I think the biggest difference will probably be size and class make-up. UWash is predominately people from the Northwestern states. They have over 200 students per class (I think?). Cornell is a little more diverse in terms of geography of each class and around 100 students for each year. That's a huge difference.

Having said all that. $100k is a lot. I'd go with the $$$$ with those options. You can escape Seattle afterwards if you feel you want to.

 

[BABSstudent]

Honestly, despite everyone saying go to UW, OP keeps waiting for someone to say Cornell. It doesn't sound like he wants to go to UW and instead wants someone to reinforce his desire to go to Cornell.

 

[titanmoon]

NYC is not "comparable" to Seattle. NYC is a world class city, Seattle is pretty provincial in comparison.

$100k sounds like a lot of money, but the rule is you shouldn't take out a loan that's larger than your first year's salary, I think you can make over $100k as an academic IM can't you?

As far as matching back in the Pacific Northwest for residency, I just checked UW's residency for Neurosurgery, only 2 out of 19 of their current residents went to UW Med, many came from East coast med schools.

Most people don't care where their doctors went to school, but for academic and public policy, I would think the reputation of the school matters a little more, as well as the location, since the east coast is where all the public policies are made.

 

[Señor Científico]

NYC is not "comparable" to Seattle. NYC is a world class city, Seattle is pretty provincial in comparison.

$100k sounds like a lot of money, but the rule is you shouldn't take out a loan that's larger than your first year's salary, I think you can make over $100k as an academic IM can't you?

As far as matching back in the Pacific Northwest for residency, I just checked UW's residency for Neurosurgery, only 2 out of 19 of their current residents went to UW Med, many came from East coast med schools.

Most people don't care where their doctors went to school, but for academic and public policy, I would think the reputation of the school matters a little more, as well as the location, since the east coast is where all the public policies are made.

Devil's Advocate: That's ignoring 6% interest over the course of medical school/residency and assuming no undergraduate debt, but yes, IM academics should make >$100k. That's also a rule typically used to justify whether you should take loans out for a degree and is often not used as justification when the same degree can be obtained with no loans.

OP, to reference the earlier post by @BABSstudent determine whether you're actually comparing these schools or trying to get support for your decision on Cornell.

You've mentioned your interest in policy and public health. My impression at Cornell was that bench research was a much stronger aspect, and more commonly pursued via their tri-institutional relationship, than policy, but it's still a power school that has resources.

I think it's a consensus here that neither school will limit opportunities for residencies, both have stellar reputations, but different personalities, and one costs quite a bit more than the other. Figure out what you're searching for and best of luck!

 

[invissideways]

Were you able to attend the revisit days/weekends at either school? How did those factor in to your impression if so?

 

[GeorgeChan]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone!

No, I wasn't able to go to the revisits because I'm currently out of the country and couldn't get the dates to work out.

As for which school I personally want, I was originally leaning towards Cornell for the chance to leave Seattle and I guess I was surprised that just about everyone here has strongly said UW and I started wondering if I was overweighting my reasons for Cornell (new research environment, new city, new challenges). Most of the responses didn't address my reasons for Cornell and the ones that did simply said that I could delay leaving for another four years, which I guess isn't a satisfying response for me because it heavily discounts the four years of medical school.

Maybe I'm considering different factors because I'm not only thinking about the clinical aspect? For example, I see myself being a full time doctor only until 50ish and then I hope to move into something else like policy or working with an NGO, which is why NY seems really exciting for me. Obviously Seattle has a lot of great organizations too but I already know people at Gates Foundation, PATH, Intellectual Ventures, etc and I feel like there's a big space of untapped resources in NYC that I could be taking advantage of...

 

[RedPhys]

Seems like your heart is set on Cornell, and that you would regret not going to Cornell, so go to Cornell.

 

[BABSstudent]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone!

No, I wasn't able to go to the revisits because I'm currently out of the country and couldn't get the dates to work out.

As for which school I personally want, I was originally leaning towards Cornell for the chance to leave Seattle and I guess I was surprised that just about everyone here has strongly said UW and I started wondering if I was overweighting my reasons for Cornell (new research environment, new city, new challenges). Most of the responses didn't address my reasons for Cornell and the ones that did simply said that I could delay leaving for another four years, which I guess isn't a satisfying response for me because it heavily discounts the four years of medical school.

Maybe I'm considering different factors because I'm not only thinking about the clinical aspect? For example, I see myself being a full time doctor only until 50ish and then I hope to move into something else like policy or working with an NGO, which is why NY seems really exciting for me. Obviously Seattle has a lot of great organizations too but I already know people at Gates Foundation, PATH, Intellectual Ventures, etc and I feel like there's a big space of untapped resources in NYC that I could be taking advantage of...

I want to say that you are comparing a top 10 school to a top 20 school. Neither are going to limit you in what you want to do. It's the student that pushes his or herself to be the type of doctor you want to be. It isn't a passive process.

If you want to be that type of doctor, then do it! If an opportunity doesn't exist, create it. If you think that would be easier for you to do in NY then go for it! You don't need to justify it for anyone nor is anyone going to fault you for picking a different school than what they suggest.

 

[samsunimomo]

As a Washington resident headed to an out-of-state private school (got waitlisted from UW), I'll play the devil's advocate.

1) University of Washington has older and more run-down facilities compared to Cornell, especially with the latter's new research and hospital building.
2) Weill Cornell will attract students from around the country, whereas UW students will almost entirely be from the WAMMI region. You will be able to build incredible connections by having a fewer number of students who are from a diverse geographical background.
3) Weill Cornell has a ton of funding for students to pursue research and extracurricular activities.
4) Rockefeller, MSKCC, and the Institute for Special Surgery are one or two blocks away, which will be a huge boon for research and getting experience in specialty fields.
5) New York City personally isn't my cup of tea, but it definitely has way more going on in it than Seattle, which I do love to bits. (Plus, subsidized living in the upper east side! Only Mt. Sinai does this better)
6) Being in NYC will give you the opportunity to connect with the "Big 4" NYC IM residencies: Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Mt. Sinai.

 

[Jimmy Wang]

just sayin'

Ithaca in the winter

 

[samsunimomo]

just sayin'

Ithaca in the winter

Because Weill Cornell is totally in Ithaca and not actually 5.5 hours away in Manhattan?

 

[iceroll]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone!

No, I wasn't able to go to the revisits because I'm currently out of the country and couldn't get the dates to work out.

As for which school I personally want, I was originally leaning towards Cornell for the chance to leave Seattle and I guess I was surprised that just about everyone here has strongly said UW and I started wondering if I was overweighting my reasons for Cornell (new research environment, new city, new challenges). Most of the responses didn't address my reasons for Cornell and the ones that did simply said that I could delay leaving for another four years, which I guess isn't a satisfying response for me because it heavily discounts the four years of medical school.

Maybe I'm considering different factors because I'm not only thinking about the clinical aspect? For example, I see myself being a full time doctor only until 50ish and then I hope to move into something else like policy or working with an NGO, which is why NY seems really exciting for me. Obviously Seattle has a lot of great organizations too but I already know people at Gates Foundation, PATH, Intellectual Ventures, etc and I feel like there's a big space of untapped resources in NYC that I could be taking advantage of...

I think people are saying that the opportunities at both schools are both excellent and you won't be limited by either choice. UW has a higher research ranking than Cornell, so finding research won't be a problem. It's up to you if the new city/new experiences aspect is worth the extra 100k + interest or not.

 

[Aequanimitatis]

Don't have anything to add to the medical school debate on here but from the perspective of an MS4 who interviewed around the country, I think UW is one of the most well rounded, clinically rigorous academic IM programs in the country. If location (ie eastern coast) wasn't as big of an issue for me I would have had no qualms ranking it above the Hopkins and Penn's of the world (the big 4 NYC programs weren't even a consideration for me personally and I cancelled those interviews, for context).

With all this said, OP, it sounds like you want a change of scenery and try to take things to the next level in Manhattan with your career goals in mind. Cornell will not hold you back, I would think from, whatever it is you want to do. At least for IM (which seems to be your preliminary goal), I had no issues securing an interview and indications of matching at UW if I had wanted to, coming from a medical school that is not even close to being in the same league as Cornell, on the polar opposite of the country from Seattle. Work hard and make your dreams happen from wherever you end up.

Best of luck!