U Mich vs. Duke

SteinUmStein said:

You don't know me, so please don't judge me. I understand where you're coming from, but in my defense I feel completely misled by a system that claims to help those in need, and just plain doesn't. I'm from very rural Iowa and I guarantee you had more opportunities in both high school and undergrad to put yourself ahead, so I feel like just getting to this point was a major battle. To then be shoved back down by a school that showers gifts on its acceptees and money on its most favored disciples... well, there's bitterness there, and I'm sorry that I came across as "spoiled" in an online forum. I'm anything but, and I think we'd get along a lot better in person. Best of luck to you.

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I have to back you on this Stein. I'm coming from a disadvantaged background and could barely afford the gas money to drive down here for an interview. Applying is a whole different game if you are economically disadvantaged (in every sense, including getting through pre-med classes, MCAT prep--no classes, or tutors here/worked a full time job during studying for example--even just BELIEVING you can get in when your parents haven't even finished college let alone are professionals). It's that much more draining/harder to get through this process in one piece/successfully.

So Stein, don't apologize for your reaction.

catalase, the last thing I saw when I read Stein's post was "spoiled-ness" or entitlement. I saw someone who was once again forced back down/ignored by "the system" and who was frustrated/hurt by that. It's human. Whether you want to admit it or not, not getting a scholarship represents an implicit judgement of your value (in their eyes), so yes, that rejection can hurt. I really don't think you should be so quick to judge.

I am equally as disgruntled with Michigan's financial aid practices - and I did receive a major scholarship from them. It does feel like the veneer is peeling off and are now able to see what they really think of their students. To not take consideration of individuals finances in giving out aid is just absurd and inhumane for a medical school - especially one all whose students are supposedly top-notch. Stein, do not apologize - I do not think that you came out as arrogant. It burns when a place you love clearly doesn't love you back.

Plus this blatant favoritism cannot feel too good, even for the favorites. And yes, they should spent more of their recruiting money on scholarships and not on useless information pieces. I don't think I could stomach going to Michigan even as a "favored" student knowing that many of my disadvantaged classmates are going to end up in great debt while a few select other (even if they were "rich") would end up with very little.

MedMe said:

this thread, as others have mentioned, has been really eye-opening for me. to be honest, i'm disgusted by the blatant favoritism that michigan displays amongst its accepted students. this whole fleece or no fleece issue, and the coldness of ruiz's reply email boggles my mind when they try so hard to come across as being a very friendly place. i wish they'd put the money, however little, that was spent on the cd/flash drive/other useless recruiting garbage into things that would actually help students. (this is coming from someone who was awarded a scholarship, so i'm not some disgruntled hater. i'm just let down by mich and feel like it's been all smoke and mirrors).

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Not all accepted students are equal. That's the whole point of merit/recruitment scholarships. UM is a big fish, they want the 42/4.0 more than the 36/3.8. This "equality" line of thought is absurd.

catalase said:

Not all accepted students are equal. That's the whole point of merit/recruitment scholarships. UM is a big fish, they want the 42/4.0 more than the 36/3.8. This "equality" line of thought is absurd.

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Edit: See post at end of this thread.

SteinUmStein said:

You don't know me, so please don't judge me. I understand where you're coming from, but in my defense I feel completely misled by a system that claims to help those in need, and just plain doesn't. I'm from very rural Iowa and I guarantee you had more opportunities in both high school and undergrad to put yourself ahead, so I feel like just getting to this point was a major battle. To then be shoved back down by a school that showers gifts on its acceptees and money on its most favored disciples... well, there's bitterness there, and I'm sorry that I came across as "spoiled" in an online forum. I'm anything but, and I think we'd get along a lot better in person. Best of luck to you.

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1) You have no idea where I'm from or my background, so you can guarantee nothing.

2) Words mean things: To be misled means that you were at some point promised or attracted by the strong possiblity or guarantee of being awarded a scholarship. If you actually did ask someone at admissions/financial aid about your prospects in this endeavor and they promised you something, then I do sympathize with you. But I doubt this.

3) Every single student accepted to UM is very gifted and ambitious. Per their website about 40% of students receive some form of a scholarship. Not all students get a scholarship, that's just how it is. This isn't utopia.

4) This isn't politically correct on SDN, but I don't feel that you are entitled to a scholarship just becuase of your economic background. There's plenty of students who come from more money that end up financing their own education anyway. I think the term "need-based" is a misrepresentation, because in today's world of financial aid nobody absolutely needs to have money knocked off their tuition. Loans are accessible by everyone, and most have to use them.

5) Lastly, if you really do feel that a lack of money from UM is a slap in the face, then simply go to the school that showed more initial faith in you.

Omg, how dare they not offer me a scholarship, I thought they were supposed to be nice...

That was the vibe I got from the post. As I mentioned before, a lot of people would be pretty happy to get into a ~top 10 school.

As far as this whole debate goes, I personally would go to Duke, it's a fabulous school and I think it's the most desirable in the country except for HMS. I can't tell you how amazing doing a year off research program while finishing in four years would be, or how nice it'd be to be done with basic science in a year...

aDreamer said:

I have to back you on this Stein. I'm coming from a disadvantaged background and could barely afford the gas money to drive down here for an interview. Applying is a whole different game if you are economically disadvantaged (in every sense, including getting through pre-med classes, MCAT prep--no classes, or tutors here/worked a full time job during studying for example--even just BELIEVING you can get in when your parents haven't even finished college let alone are professionals). It's that much more draining/harder to get through this process in one piece/successfully.

So Stein, don't apologize for your reaction.

catalase, the last thing I saw when I read Stein's post was "spoiled-ness" or entitlement. I saw someone who was once again forced back down/ignored by "the system" and who was frustrated/hurt by that. It's human. Whether you want to admit it or not, not getting a scholarship represents an implicit judgement of your value (in their eyes), so yes, that rejection can hurt. I really don't think you should be so quick to judge.

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Stein while I didn't see you coming off as arrogant. I will have to respectfully disagree with you and naijaboi on this one. I don't think anyone can EXPECT to receive a recruitment/ merit scholarship. Especially given the economic times that we are in. I'm not sure where this 1.6mil dollar is coming from I would have to see a source for that but I do not doubt that UMich scholarship funds are down for this year. Also I think you guys are confusing recruitment scholarship from financial aid. I believe we were told specifically that need was not taken into account for recruitment. So I am not sure why this is now a surprise to people. The sheer fact that "recruitment" is used automatically implies that there are going to be winners and there are going to be losers. I am not happy that I happened to be a loser especially as I am as economically disadvantaged as they come. But I do understand that with limited resources come very very tough decisions. UMich first goal is to build a class. They only way they can start that is by trying to keep pieces that they find important for class diversity. If they could they would give money to everyone. This clearly is not possible. The difference between Michigan and say a Chicago or Harvard is that the scholarships that they give out are not recruitment (I think this is the case for Chicago but definitely is for Harvard). Some top schools do not give merit scholarships at all. Although I know for a fact one such school is financially capable of giving everyone person in their class a full ride if it so pleases but does not because they believe it "de-values" the education. If you would like the source please PM and I can ask my buddy at this medschool and get the name of the dean who told him this. Is it fair that some money is held back?

In any case, Harvard and other top schools usually have a very large pool of money that is used solely for financial aid. It comes from donors, endowments, and other sources. UMich also has this but theirs is not as large. And contrary to naus says they also have money that has been donated to the school that can only be used for need based aid. You guys have yet to see what this will look like. It too may not be as promising but I would at least wait to you get that before you bash UMich "values". There is a fundamental difference b/w a merit and a need based scholarship. With the former being the one that I can't imagine someone being bitter about receiving. Medschool is getting more expensive for everyone and if it was possible every school would meet the financial needs of the students.

As far as recruitment is concerned with the flash drives and the other goodies UMich does. It is their way to get as many students as interested in the school as possible. Without recruitment they would have a much lower retention rate. Different schools goes about recruitment differently but, I sure appreciated getting all that information along the way. And I hardly doubt that this would make a large difference in recruitment scholarship either way. Umich only has a 50% retention rate because they accept a lot of great students and those students have lots of great options (i.e. big H, little H, Yale, Columbia etc). If they didn't try offer "recruitment" scholarship to a wider variety of students there is no way the school could try and have a diverse class. This is the reason why they can't allocate all their funds to just those in needs.The school does not have the luxury of being everyones top choice so they must recruit heavier than others.

I tried to go about this as objectively as possible. Like I said I am as poor as they come and adding more money to my pile of loans will be rough. I would assume though that most doctors do pay these loans off eventually and live pretty decent lives economically. I grew up with very little resources so I can't imagine it being any worse than how I grew up. I think the main difference in ideology is that some of you guys feel as though the first priority should be to those in needs and then the 2nd priority should be make a diverse class. Even though research (too lazy to find source) has shown that a diverse class makes for a significantly beter learning environment. Call me old school but I rather be a richer learning environment. Correct me if my assumptions are incorrect.

Naijaboi: Also the difference for you personally b/w U Mich and U Chicago is about 10k in out of pocket total. If you look at both schools COA. I think U Chicago gives out more money on average b/c it COA is about 40k more total than U Mich.

I wrote this all pretty quickly so I apologize if i repeated myself or this tirade was incoherent in parts.

EDIT: Sorry for taking over the thread. But yeah OP I would go for Duke as well. Interviewing at both places I think the opportunities are there at both places but that extra year off seems golden. As the sdn mantra goes: you can't go wrong with each choice.

SteinUmStein said:

Harvard's a big fish and they manage to run the Middle Class Initiative, which provides huge need-based aid to those from disadvantaged backgrounds. Northwestern and Pritzker are big fishes and if you look at this year's threads and past year's as well, they are very generous with need-based aid in addition to merit based aid.

A school doesn't need to pick merit vs. need-based aid, many schools manage both quite well. In Michigan's defense, it sounds like funding really dried up this year, someone was saying $1.6 million in scholarships this year vs. $4 million in past years? Ouch. Hurts both the school and its students, and I don't blame that part of the problem on UMich. Times are tough, especially in the state of Michigan where unemployment is the highest in the nation and state funding is still dropping.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds...&dl=en&hl=en&q=unemployment+rates+in+michigan

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I'd hesitate to compare Harvard with this other schools. They have a 25billion dollars endowment. That is after losing 10bil in endowment last year. This is still more than 10bil than 2nd place. Also like I said most of this money come from donors. It is possible that UChicago was able to raise a lot of money for tuition scholarships. I assume this is also true for NU. U Mich may just have not been able to attract enough donors to build an armoire of need based aid scholarships. Like I said you don't know what financial aid will bring. I know that you have to make a decision by April 15th but if you emailed the fin aid office than can provide you with an estimate and if you tell them your situation they might be able to expedite it.

UChicago Scholarship source: http://pritzker.uchicago.edu/admissions/financialaid/sources.shtml

Endowments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_States_by_endowment

I'm highly skeptical about NU being great with need and merit based aid. Their average indebtedness is astronomical. The internet is a place to vent so I'm not sure why people are getting flamed for voicing their disappointment about scholarship money. People have a lot of hard work tied up in this process.

drizzt3117 said:

Omg, how dare they not offer me a scholarship, I thought they were supposed to be nice...

That was the vibe I got from the post. As I mentioned before, a lot of people would be pretty happy to get into a ~top 10 school.

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You know what, that's exactly what I meant. Why did I even try to pretend that I'm anything other than a spoiled brat whining about being left out? Because apparently that is exactly what I am.

I certainly am pretty happy to get into a ~top 10 school, although it does me no good if I can't afford it.

im not gonna pick sides or anything, but what they gave out so far was merit/recruitment money, not need based. we all knew that. you cant really complain that they didnt give you any $ because you needed it more than some who got $. they probably didnt even look at anyones financial situation when dishing those out.

wait until the need based aid comes out. i dont know if that includes $ though. i dont know if i would consider mich stingy. i remember reading a post a while back about how they paid for someones ticket/travel for an interview because the person had no money left. ive never seen any other school do that. and those flash drives/cds dont cost that much. so its not really an issue. what are they gonna do, give you the $150 it costs?

and with regards to Uchicago, didnt they reduce their class size when everyone is asking them to increase it? i think they wanted to keep the aid high. if so, you cant compare their aid to michigans when the class size is half the size. yes they have more $ to give out, but also to much less ppl.

SteinUmStein said:

You know what, that's exactly what I meant. Why did I even try to pretend that I'm anything other than a spoiled brat whining about being left out? Because apparently that is exactly what I am.

I certainly am pretty happy to get into a ~top 10 school, although it does me no good if I can't afford it.

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So all the people going to GW or Tufts or USC or whatever who don't get scholarships are just completely screwed? Somehow they seemed to make it, so will you. It sounds like you got some money from other schools anyways.

There's lots of reasons why schools give out money, the biggest goal is likely getting a well-qualified but diverse class. I don't think whether you get scholarship money should be considered an implicit judgment except on the basis of what the school wants to do in terms of demographics.

UMichMedAdmiss In a world of finite resources decisions are tough--we are trying hard to build a class and that means we have to make choices=reality.
about 3 hours ago

Twitter post

ApoK said:

UMichMedAdmiss In a world of finite resources decisions are tough--we are trying hard to build a class and that means we have to make choices=reality.
about 3 hours ago

Twitter post

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Totally understandable... I really don't blame them at all. Being on an admissions committee or financial aid committee would be a very difficult position. Hopefully some of you out there get their next round of merit scholarships!

ApoK said:

UMichMedAdmiss In a world of finite resources decisions are tough--we are trying hard to build a class and that means we have to make choices=reality.
about 3 hours ago

Twitter post

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Haha I wonder if they wrote that in response to seeing this thread!

afugazzi said:

Haha I wonder if they wrote that in response to seeing this thread!

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I swear they are stalking us. Hi, Director Ruiz!

I understand all the disappointment, I also got 0$ from Mich so far. But I went into this with no illusions. It seemed pretty clear at the interview that at Mich admissions=recruiting. They aren't there to be your buddy, they are working their asses off to get the best and the brightest (as they see them) and build a dynamic class. If rolling admissions, bling bling fleeces and flash drives and recruiting scholarships help them up their vs. Harvard retention rate past 40% then that is what they'll do. Also, did anyone else notice that we learned more about UM admissions on interview day than we did about UM?

But to the OP, I would personally choose UM over Duke.

SteinUmStein said:

I swear they are stalking us. Hi, Director Ruiz! Is nowhere safe?

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UM definitely reads these forums and resonds to posts through Twitter. Personally, I wouldn't presume that u won't get something next round of scholarship announcements. Can ur fiancé ask for an extension to make a decision, given the circumstances? They might be understanding...

Also, for the OP. I think UM sounds like a better fit for you personally.

However, I have to say that Duke is undeniably the stronger program, especially if you want to do a competitive specialty. I just don't see them as being that close to one another at all.

Soapcat said:

I would like to know why would you choose UM over your other top choice as well?

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Duke is not in my top choices. I didn't apply to Duke because I have 0 research and strategically avoided applying in the south (no offense). But in relation to my top choice, I would go to U Mich if it ended up being *significantly" cheaper than my top choice, like say 100-200k cheaper over 4 yrs, because it is an excellent school that I liked a lot in a livable area for me and my family. But I don't think that's going to happen.

Soapcat said:

see...that's exactly why I need help lol

i've been thinking and if i am going to pay the same amount of money, i would rather work extra harder at duke (not that UM would be terribly easier). but i guess i will need more research.

thanks for your honest input, though

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that's what 3rd year is for!

Soapcat said:

see...that's exactly why I need help lol

i've been thinking and if i am going to pay the same amount of money, i would rather work extra harder at duke (not that UM would be terribly easier). but i guess i will need more research.

thanks for your honest input, though

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Well, I don't view the Duke curriculum as requiring you to work "harder" per se. I think everyone has to learn the same material at some point. I think Duke forces you to be more creative in how you learn. As in, you'll have to pick things up on the wards and not in textbooks.

I think you might be a little out of your comfort zone and pushed unlike before, but that could be a great thing as you move forward in your career (it will make you better, eventually). Also, you have to be ready to deal with adversity. At Duke, you're going to be competing with kids that are really brilliant in a graded environment early in your education (also true at Michigan but P/F preclinicals). Everyone will have difficulty consistently outperforming classmates. If you're used to being the best in your class, it might be hard to adapt and you should be prepared psychologically.

Overall, I view UM as a lot less stressful during Y1 and Y2, but I've heard Y3 is pretty dreadful. I guess it'll be stressful at some point no matter what. Duke front loads it into years 1 and 2. Michigan backloads it into Y3. Ultimately, both are great programs and you really can't go wrong at either place.

DrSmooth said:

Duke is not in my top choices. I didn't apply to Duke because I have 0 research and strategically avoided applying in the south (no offense). But in relation to my top choice, I would go to U Mich if it ended up being *significantly" cheaper than my top choice, like say 100-200k cheaper over 4 yrs, because it is an excellent school that I liked a lot in a livable area for me and my family. But I don't think that's going to happen.

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Yeah, people have qualms about moving to the "South." However, keep in mind that the research triangle is a really young, fairly liberal area. It's also on the East Coast, so you're not too far from the cities in the Northeast.

Also, people should be aware that Duke has about 6 to 7 million that it gives to its ~100 students in merit scholarships and need-based aid.

ApoK said:

Also, you have to be ready to deal with adversity. At Duke, you're going to be competing with kids that are really brilliant in a graded environment early in your education (also true at Michigan but P/F preclinicals).

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False. While Duke's preclinical curriculum is graded Honors/Pass/Fail, Honors grades are given to anyone (potentially everyone in the class) who has a cumulative average of >90% on non-curved tests. That usually works out to be a third of the class. This leads to a very non-competitive environment with study guides/notes being emailed out and all the other sort of warm fuzzies you hear talked about at every school on the interview trail.

Good luck with your decision!

Dr Durden said:

False. While Duke's preclinical curriculum is graded Honors/Pass/Fail, Honors grades are given to anyone (potentially everyone in the class) who has a cumulative average of >90% on non-curved tests. That usually works out to be a third of the class. This leads to a very non-competitive environment with study guides/notes being emailed out and all the other sort of warm fuzzies you hear talked about at every school on the interview trail.

Good luck with your decision!

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Oh wow, thanks for sharing. I didn't know that. lol, I was trying to find a reason for promoting UM over Duke for the OP. I guess I failed lol.

Dr Durden said:

False. While Duke's preclinical curriculum is graded Honors/Pass/Fail, Honors grades are given to anyone (potentially everyone in the class) who has a cumulative average of >90% on non-curved tests. That usually works out to be a third of the class. This leads to a very non-competitive environment with study guides/notes being emailed out and all the other sort of warm fuzzies you hear talked about at every school on the interview trail.

Good luck with your decision!

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Even if it's not curved, there's still the added pressure to perform well, even if it's not as competitive. I would take a true P/F any day over any form of H/P/F.

thats true. just having an honors could make you feel like you should work for it.

The important part of Duke's grading scheme is that it encourages excellence but not competition, because the cutoffs are set in stone rather than standard deviations from the mean. Allow me to remind ya'll that its clerkship grades and the USMLE Step 1 that actually matter to residency directors. Look at Duke's match list--nobody is going to family practice residencies in county hospitals (unless that is what they want). The cost of being average at a place like this is not too high..

jbz24 said:

Even if it's not curved, there's still the added pressure to perform well, even if it's not as competitive. I would take a true P/F any day over any form of H/P/F.

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Eh, and have all of aoa be determined by arbitrary clinical grades? I think p/f/h is nice, or abcd in 2nd yr and in clinicals.

drizzt3117 said:

Eh, and have all of aoa be determined by arbitrary clinical grades? I think p/f/h is nice, or abcd in 2nd yr and in clinicals.

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Those arbitrary clinical grades are what matter anyway. I wouldn't want AOA to be based off of meaningless first and second classes (although I don't think AOA should be based off of grades at all, but that's a separate issue). Having grades (H/P/F is still a graded system) just adds unnecessary stress. Even if the classes don't count in terms of factors for your residency application, many med students will still strive to be the best in their class. It's just the pre-med mentality. Going to a purely P/F school gets rid of that altogether.

jbz24 said:

Those arbitrary clinical grades are what matter anyway. I wouldn't want AOA to be based off of meaningless first and second classes (although I don't think AOA should be based off of grades at all, but that's a separate issue). Having grades (H/P/F is still a graded system) just adds unnecessary stress. Even if the classes don't count in terms of factors for your residency application, many med students will still strive to be the best in their class. It's just the pre-med mentality. Going to a purely P/F school gets rid of that altogether.

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They matter, but so does AOA. I'd rather AOA be based at least half on things I can control (my preclinical grades) than have all of it be based on arbitrariness. What would you have it be based on? Subjective evaluations only?

Going to a P/F school also puts much more emphasis on Step 1. I wouldn't have a problem with that but some people certainly would. Also personally I studied much harder for my 2nd year courses that were graded than the pass fail 1st year courses, and felt far more prepared for step 1 in that coursework.

Soapcat said:

i could see that you don't want me as your classmate


jk

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lol! Haha, I actually didn't know they didn't grade on a curve. I think that would relieve quite a bit of stress with regard to how you are doing relative to classmates. Wow, I just think that's how it should always be, at least for med school. Haha, yeah, I was trying to be nice to UM. They are a good school. However, I thought the descriptions of third year at UM (previously posted) were terrifying!

Well, if you're going to UM's and Duke's second looks, you should be able to get a much better feel than what we can provide on these forums. For the record, if you got accepted to Duke, you'll almost certainly be able to handle the accelerated pace. I think it's just a matter if you want to work at a little faster pace, or if you'd like that transition period.

drizzt3117 said:

They matter, but so does AOA. I'd rather AOA be based at least half on things I can control (my preclinical grades) than have all of it be based on arbitrariness. What would you have it be based on? Subjective evaluations only?

Going to a P/F school also puts much more emphasis on Step 1. I wouldn't have a problem with that but some people certainly would. Also personally I studied much harder for my 2nd year courses that were graded than the pass fail 1st year courses, and felt far more prepared for step 1 in that coursework.

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Preclinical grades only matter insofar as determining AOA candidates. Otherwise, most residency program directors will simply disregard them. I can't remember where it was, maybe in the NRMP charting outcomes (or some other survey), where preclinical grades are dead last in criteria used by program directors.

I agree that it's a shame to have AOA be based on arbitrary factors, but since all of the clinical year is arbitrary anyway, and since your clinical year is what largely determines how well you do in the match, it doesn't make much of a difference. Yes, some specialties care less about clinical grades and more on AOA status, but both are still very important in pretty much every specialty.

I don't see how more emphasis is placed on step 1 in P/F schools. Program directors will not give any leeway to a candidate with a lot of preclinical honors but a crummy step 1 score. They will most likely just be filtered out in ERAS. Step 1 is equally important for everyone, regardless of their school.

I'm aware of the study, my point was that I'd prefer. a system like ours, where half of aoa is based on preclinical grades and half on clinicals, which appears to be what duke has too. Step is more important in p/f bc pds have less data points to evaluate you on, it's obv still impt if you have grades too but less so bc you can still get aoa with good preclinical grades.

jbz24 said:

Preclinical grades only matter insofar as determining AOA candidates. Otherwise, most residency program directors will simply disregard them. I can't remember where it was, maybe in the NRMP charting outcomes (or some other survey), where preclinical grades are dead last in criteria used by program directors.

I agree that it's a shame to have AOA be based on arbitrary factors, but since all of the clinical year is arbitrary anyway, and since your clinical year is what largely determines how well you do in the match, it doesn't make much of a difference. Yes, some specialties care less about clinical grades and more on AOA status, but both are still very important in pretty much every specialty.

I don't see how more emphasis is placed on step 1 in P/F schools. Program directors will not give any leeway to a candidate with a lot of preclinical honors but a crummy step 1 score. They will most likely just be filtered out in ERAS. Step 1 is equally important for everyone, regardless of their school.

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I'm aware of the study, my point was that I'd prefer. a system like ours, where half of aoa is based on preclinical grades and half on clinicals, which appears to be what duke has too. Step is more important in p/f bc pds have less data points to evaluate you on, it's obv still impt if you have grades too but less so bc you can still get aoa with good preclinical grades.

jbz24 said:

Preclinical grades only matter insofar as determining AOA candidates. Otherwise, most residency program directors will simply disregard them. I can't remember where it was, maybe in the NRMP charting outcomes (or some other survey), where preclinical grades are dead last in criteria used by program directors.

I agree that it's a shame to have AOA be based on arbitrary factors, but since all of the clinical year is arbitrary anyway, and since your clinical year is what largely determines how well you do in the match, it doesn't make much of a difference. Yes, some specialties care less about clinical grades and more on AOA status, but both are still very important in pretty much every specialty.

I don't see how more emphasis is placed on step 1 in P/F schools. Program directors will not give any leeway to a candidate with a lot of preclinical honors but a crummy step 1 score. They will most likely just be filtered out in ERAS. Step 1 is equally important for everyone, regardless of their school.

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drizzt3117 said:

I'm aware of the study, my point was that I'd prefer. a system like ours, where half of aoa is based on preclinical grades and half on clinicals, which appears to be what duke has too. Step is more important in p/f bc pds have less data points to evaluate you on, it's obv still impt if you have grades too but less so bc you can still get aoa with good preclinical grades.

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It's fine if you prefer it that way (you're only one of a few that I've seen say that). Why not let the first three years be graded? More data points for AOA determination then. I'd prefer less years of stress, but that's just me. In fact, I would have preferred my school to be like CCLCM and UCLA (I believe) in which there are no grades period.

Step 1 is not more important in P/F. Since program directors do not use preclinical grades (on average, last in their criteria), it doesn't give more weight to step 1 in schools with P/F only.

jbz24 said:

It's fine if you prefer it that way (you're only one of a few that I've seen say that). Why not let the first three years be graded? More data points for AOA determination then. I'd prefer less years of stress, but that's just me. In fact, I would have preferred my school to be like CCLCM and UCLA (I believe) in which there are no grades period.

Step 1 is not more important in P/F. Since program directors do not use preclinical grades (on average, last in their criteria), it doesn't give more weight to step 1 in schools with P/F only.

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in pf, aoa = clinical grades so you're evaluated on cg and step.

In non-pf you're evaluated on aoa (pc + cg), cg, step, meaning even if your step was relatively weak, good pc grade performance might still get you aoa, which IMO makes a difference in residency selection.

For me, I prefer it bc I know I'll honor my preclinicals so why not have it count?

drizzt3117 said:

in pf, aoa = clinical grades so you're evaluated on cg and step.

In non-pf you're evaluated on aoa (pc + cg), cg, step, meaning even if your step was relatively weak, good pc grade performance might still get you aoa, which IMO makes a difference in residency selection.

For me, I prefer it bc I know I'll honor my preclinicals so why not have it count?

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Sorry, I thought you were talking about preclinical grades for residency selection, not AOA selection.

And even if honors are not distributed on a bell curve, AOA is. Just seems more troublesome and stressful to me to worry about performance over multiple years. To each his own.

jbz24 said:

Sorry, I thought you were talking about preclinical grades for residency selection, not AOA selection.

And even if honors are not distributed on a bell curve, AOA is. Just seems more troublesome and stressful to me to worry about performance over multiple years. To each his own.

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Well in our class, honors ARE distributed on a bell curve. My point is that if I honor all my preclinical classes I have a better chance of getting AOA than if it were simply arbitrary from clinical performance assuming that I do equally well in clinicals either way.

Anyways, I can see the other viewpoint. My point is that I'm going to work hard to be the best in preclinical classes anyways, so why not have it count?

I'd like to humbly retract my negative comments about UMich and cite gross misunderstanding on my part. A poster messaged me about publicly clarifying my position and situation so that others do not get a negative impression about UMich from my erroneous posts. I'll repost the PM's that I have also posted in the 2009-2010 University of Michigan Application Thread:

My negative remarks about Michigan were in response to their promises of generous aid to those with low EFC's who are OOS in order to lower the cost of attendance to reasonable levels. When I didn't receive anything on the scholarship release day, I incorrectly assumed that Michigan was asking me to pay the entire $67k cost of attendance, which infuriated me, as my family and I have no money whatsoever. We're talking $300k+ debt when interest is accounted for. I was furious, as I knew how much scholarship money Michigan has to give out.

I did receive a need-based grant the next week, but my comments had already been made, and I regret that I misunderstood that their scholarship release dates were different for need-based and merit-based.

Also, I spoke with Director Ruiz several times over the phone and explained my situation, and he was very understanding. I made a huge mistake, and it wasn't the first and it won't be the last time. I don't think I owe anything to posters on these boards, as everything on here has to be taken with a great deal of salt, and people know that. I did owe Michigan an explanation, and I gave them that explanation both in e-mail form and over the phone with Director Ruiz himself. They most definitely read these forums, and I'm ok with that. It's a public place.

I hope I didn't offend you, or anyone else, and If I did, all I can do is apologize. I'm sorry. Regardless, I'll be attending Michigan next year, so hopefully I'll be able to make it up to my classmates when I meet them very soon.

Let me know if you have any other questions for me.

I wish you the best,
Stein

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Thanks for your explanation, it is exactly what I assumed and explains why I was originally baffled by your outrage over the merit money - big difference from need based and it seems you had an honest misunderstanding. Glad it was rectified and that you are excited about going to Michigan.

While I appreciate your explanation to me personally, I think that since you posted public comments, it behooves you to give a brief explanation about your prior erroneous beliefs and statements. It only seems fair to me that you honor Michigan's reputation for integrity since you publicly called it into question.

These boards are perused by many and although they should be taken with the proverbial salt, they do influence people's perceptions. To preserve your own credibility and to set the record straight, please address your situation in a follow-up on the forum.

Thanks for admitting your mistake and best of luck at Michigan. All these experiences contribute to becoming a better person and therefore a better doctor. Your future is bright!

Go Blue!

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