U Mich vs. Duke

[Soapcat]

So the financial deal came out today and I am not getting any money from U Mich :cry:

I really love U Mich but as an OOS I am pretty much going to pay about the same amount of money to Duke. Duke is amazing school but the grading system (H/P/F) and 1st and 2nd year combination thing really...intimidates me -- especially considering that i took a year and a half off. basically my brain needs some time to adjust!

If only U Mich offered me some money, I would have chosen U Mich.
But Duke curriculum is really

any suggestion??

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[245399]

It sounds like you want to go to UMich.

 

[metallica81788]

Well it sounds like the Duke curriculum really intimidates you. If you're probably paying the same amount for both and it seems you're leaning toward UMich, why not pick UMich then?

 

[medat101]

So the financial deal came out today and I am not getting any money from U Mich :cry:

I really love U Mich but as an OOS I am pretty much going to pay about the same amount of money to Duke. Duke is amazing school but the grading system (H/P/F) and 1st and 2nd year combination thing really...intimidates me -- especially considering that i took a year and a half off. basically my brain needs some time to adjust!

If only U Mich offered me some money, I would have chosen U Mich.
But Duke curriculum is really

any suggestion??

According to the UM twitter, "1st Round of Scholarship distribution complete. We anticipate making more offers in late April/Early May pending 1st round outcomes." Maybe you'll get one of these second round offers?

Yeah, the Duke curriculum is pretty intense, but most of the people I know going to Duke med love that its condensed and they thrive in that competitive environment. If that the aspect that you really dislike, then why not go with your heart (your wallet at this point is even with both options) and choose UMich? Does the Duke name matter that much to you?

 

[naus]

Duke for the win. Especially if they cost the same. Grading might be H/P/F at Duke, but UMich is notorious for tough grading during your clinical years (at UMich passing is considered an achievement in 3rd year rotations). And third year grades are the ones that really matter for residencies.

Let me direct you to some UMich threads about this:

(1) Reputation - When I matriculated, Michigan was #4 in terms of reputations amongst residency directors. I would like to offer that in addition to the quality of students that graduate from Michigan, there are two additional factors that may bias this ranking.

#1 - Michigan graduates 170 to 180 people per year vs. other schools that graduate anywhere from 80-120 per year. Hence, there is a lot of Michigan alums who are physicians all across the country. Many stay in the Midwest because they have family here, they grew up here, and they love it here. I am from the east coast and from going on residency interviews on the west and east coast, I do get the distinct impression that these folks are not as impressed as I would like to hope. Michigan's reputation is largely regional however, it is still well respected everywhere. Michigan's reputation does not seem to reward the applicant who is seeking to go back to California for residency. I know many people here who come to Michigan from California. Their intention is to return to that state for residency. However, some of these folks have a hard time. They will rank California programs #1-4 and Michigan #5 (because Michigan is strong in and of itself--how dare we rank Michigan low, right?). Guess what. Some of these folks end up at Michigan. Michigan loves to keep its own folks...there is quite a bit of inbreeding here. But this is not a completely bad thing because Michigan is a strong institution and you will get solid training. I will stress though that Michigan is far from being the absolute BEST! But it's pretty damn good.
#2- I will expand on this in the next section. However, some of my friends posit this hypothesis which I think is pretty interesting (I wish I could take credit for this one). Again, this is only a hypothesis. Michigan, during the clinical years, works you HARD. I mean really...you get absolutely WORKED! Michigan students are beaten down and trained well. Hence, when they go to residency programs, they have seen close to the worst of the worst. Michigan students are used to the crap and won't bitch and moan as much. So program directors won't hear a lot of lip from us because we're so used to being treated like crap. Think about it...let's say you go off to residency being used to taking overnight call every 4th night. Then there's the resident who came from a medical school that doesn't subject its students from taking overnight call. Suddenly, things get really busy. The Michigan resident isn't gonna bitch; he/she will be better adjusted to this schedule, will buckle down, and get the work done efficiently. The other resident may not be as prepared and so who is the program director gonna like better? My problem with this hypothesis is that adjustment woes are only temporary and things will even out as all the residents get used to the workload.

(2) Many premeds judge the medical school by looking at the first two years and the preclinical curriculum. Let me focus your attention to the clinical years. Did I mention that students get worked HARD? Absolutely WORKED! Also, grades are relatively deflated at our school. At some medical schools, most students get an Honors or High Pass and fewer students get a Pass. At those schools, a Pass means you really screwed up! At Michigan, it's a different mentality. A Pass is considered a huge accomplishment! Accordingly, half the students on a rotation will get a Pass. Internal Medicine, which is the rotation all residency program directors look at with close attention, is notorious for handing out a ridiculous number of Pass grades. I think this logic is ass backward. Now, a few of my classmates have posited this hypothesis (damn, I wish I came up with this one too!):

Why would Michigan hand out a lot of Pass grades? I will bring up the concept of inbreeding again. If you have a lot of Pass grades on your transcript, many residency directors may look down on your application. You may not even get an interview (although, I know of plenty of people with straight Pass transcripts who get interviews at fantastic places). However, they may not rank you highly in the Match. But guess who is gonna accept you with open arms? You got it. Michigan! Because Michigan's attitude towards a Pass grade is a bit skewed to say the least compared to other schools' attitudes toward Pass. Now you can put this together with the inbreeding concept. Many of us stay in Michigan for residency (I think close to 30% in the Class of 2002). Sure some of us ranked Michigan #1; they have family here and love Ann Arbor (which is an absolutely beautiful town). However, I do know some disgruntled California folks who got screwed because of this (talk to my roommate, he can bitch your ears off about this).

Anyways, I'll stop this diatribe. These are some of the issues which I didn't even come close to thinking about when choosing schools and I hope this gives you some insight into some "intangible" factors that don't seem obvious.

regarding the match, it basically comes down to who you believe. the residency directors from michigan will talk you up quite a bit about how well respected the school is and how much of an advantage you have. hey, maybe that's true. i haven't yet applied for residency so i can't really say from personal experience. but slowly that facade crumbles bit by bit. for instance you talk to fourth years who have stories about some programs not knowing about michigan. then you hear your class counselor say that you need to have a lot of backup plans if you apply to the coast. then you look at the matchlist and everyone's regionally matching, and personally i think that only some, not all, can be explained by student preference to stay in that region. on the other hand, people are quick to tell students how well respected michigan is at places like ucsf. look, michigan is a powerhouse, no doubt about it, but its influence is primarily in the midwest. whether its reach extend as far as the pacific ocean, i don't know but i doubt it. again, it's a matter of who you believe, and frankly, i don't know what to think. so it's something to think about before you think coming from michigan will get you anything you want. now, if you want to go to chicago, or anywhere in ohio, michigan, wisconsin, minnesota, indiana, etc... you can't go wrong with michigan. however if you want to do residency in ny, go to a ny school. if you want to practice in california, go to a california school. it will make it easier. that's just my opinion.

regarding the other bad stuff, i'll just say flat out that the people who run the school are incompetent. our schedules are made known to us two weeks in advance. thus we can't figure out when we have breaks, can't buy plane tickets, basically can't do anything.

we had a two week sequence this year in which there were so many class conflicts, more than half of our class had to email each other so that they could switch classes. mind you, these people had half a year AT LEAST to figure all this out, but no, they sat on their incompetent ass and said, hey, you guys are smart medical students, you figure it out, because i'm too busy drinking coffee and eating donuts, while you guys aren't busy enough as it is.

our grades were unavailable to us for weeks because someone in the office couldn't press a single button that opened up the results. ONE BUTTON. WEEKS.

a lot of the faculty have no idea what we've already covered or not. have you guys had endocrine yet? oh oops. how about gi? oh boy. well then, ummm, for now, just think of (blah blah blah) and memorize (blah blah blah). you'll see it again later.

the brilliant "new" curriculum planning committee decided one day that second years would start on the wards earlier than before. the problem? the overlap with third years! keep in mind these guys have been going on retreats and eating tons of krispy kremes for no less than FIVE YEARS and they didn't come up with a solution to this until this academic year already started.

now shifting away from incompetence to flat out annoying ****, i have strong issues with the way the admissions is run. the school hands out full scholarships like they're going out of style, spends ten grand on second look weekend, sends HOLIDAY GIFTS (!!) to admits, and yet can't give a lick of financial aid to people who really need it. i know some dirt broke people who are on all loans. forgive me if that makes me a bit cynical. it's like once you're in they're like, "haha we bought you in and now you're on your own with our sh*tty regional reputation". i'm probably exaggerating but i've felt that way on more than one occasion.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=155768

Take these comments with a grain of salt of course, but it's always good to have perspectives beyond the marketing polish.

 

[BlueElmo]

Both are excellent schools. If you're turned off by the Duke curriculum, then I think Michigan would be the choice for you. You could also condsider the locations, Ann Arbor vs Durham.

 

[SteinUmStein]

I also received absolutely nothing from Michigan and am extremely disappointed. Now I'm considering other offers that previously I was not even looking at. I cannot begin to describe how badly I don't want to pay full OOS tuition at UMich.

I e-mailed Dr. Ruiz about my scholarship offer from another school and he was completely unsympathetic. He basically said, "Go there, forget about Michigan. Adios."

This is all coming from someone who was completely in love with Michigan and dead-set on going there 24 hours ago. A lot changes when a school says, "Hey, screw yourself and go insanely in debt." My family has absolutely no money, so it makes this all hurt even worse. It's like I never had a chance. Kind of wish I had just been rejected straight-up.

/end rant

 

[SteinUmStein]

the school hands out full scholarships like they're going out of style, spends ten grand on second look weekend, sends HOLIDAY GIFTS (!!) to admits, and yet can't give a lick of financial aid to people who really need it. i know some dirt broke people who are on all loans.

This is exactly right. I feel so burned by a school that can spend crazy $$$ sending out CD's and flash drives and giving massive merit scholarships and can't give a dime to somebody like me whose family makes a combined income less than $80k.

 

[Soapcat]

Duke for the win. Especially if they cost the same. Grading might be H/P/F at Duke, but UMich is notorious for tough grading during your clinical years (at UMich passing is considered an achievement in 3rd year rotations). And third year grades are the ones that really matter.

Let me direct you to some UMich threads about this:




http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=155768

oh my goodness

 

[Soapcat]

I also received absolutely nothing from Michigan and am extremely disappointed. Now I'm considering other offers that previously I was not even looking at. I cannot begin to describe how badly I don't want to pay full OOS tuition at UMich.

I e-mailed Dr. Ruiz about my scholarship offer from another school and he was completely unsympathetic. He basically said, "Go there, forget about Michigan. Adios."

This is all coming from someone who was completely in love with Michigan and dead-set on going there 24 hours ago. A lot changes when a school says, "Hey, screw yourself and go insanely in debt." My family has absolutely no money, so it makes this all hurt even worse. It's like I never had a chance. Kind of wish I had just been rejected straight-up.

/end rant

I feel you :cry:

 

[medat101]

I would definitely NOT based my decision off a few disgruntled posts by former UM students. You don't really know the context of their anger with the program or the clinical years grading.

Did you manage to sign up for second look at UMich and Duke? That may help!

 

[Soapcat]

According to the UM twitter, "1st Round of Scholarship distribution complete. We anticipate making more offers in late April/Early May pending 1st round outcomes." Maybe you'll get one of these second round offers?

Yeah, the Duke curriculum is pretty intense, but most of the people I know going to Duke med love that its condensed and they thrive in that competitive environment. If that the aspect that you really dislike, then why not go with your heart (your wallet at this point is even with both options) and choose UMich? Does the Duke name matter that much to you?

Well it sounds like the Duke curriculum really intimidates you. If you're probably paying the same amount for both and it seems you're leaning toward UMich, why not pick UMich then?

One thing I don't like about U Mich is the number of students;
it's 170 vs. 100 and I prefer smaller class for med school!

 

[medat101]

I also received absolutely nothing from Michigan and am extremely disappointed. Now I'm considering other offers that previously I was not even looking at. I cannot begin to describe how badly I don't want to pay full OOS tuition at UMich.

I e-mailed Dr. Ruiz about my scholarship offer from another school and he was completely unsympathetic. He basically said, "Go there, forget about Michigan. Adios."

This is all coming from someone who was completely in love with Michigan and dead-set on going there 24 hours ago. A lot changes when a school says, "Hey, screw yourself and go insanely in debt." My family has absolutely no money, so it makes this all hurt even worse. It's like I never had a chance. Kind of wish I had just been rejected straight-up.

/end rant

Sorry to hear about the lack of financial love from Dr. Ruiz and UM, but remember more scholarships will be given out in April/May!

 

[Soapcat]

I would definitely NOT based my decision off a few disgruntled posts by former UM students. You don't really know the context of their anger with the program or the clinical years grading.

Did you manage to sign up for second look at UMich and Duke? That may help!

I did sign up to both but waitlisted at UMich (sounds weird lol)

 

[MrBurns10]

I'm a 4th year at Duke. I'll give you my opinions of the advantages and disadvantages of Duke's curriculum if this will help you in making your decision.

Advantages
1. Get lecture done in one year. My husband goes to UNC's med school and he and our friends in his class were so jealous we only had to be in the classroom for one year.

2. Rotations a year early really make applying to residency a LOT easier. Unfortunately, not everyone decides early on what specialty they want to pursue. Imagine being at the end of your 3rd year and being unsure, or just deciding at the end of your 3rd year. If your specialty of choice happens to be a competitive field, it's going to be tough to get any research under your belt after the fact (research isn't necessary for all fields but it helps. See #4).

3. Early electives. I know of several schools who don't give any electives until 4th year, or at the most give one. If you don't want to pursue one of the core rotation fields, how are you going to know what to do? Duke not only does its rotations a year early (giving you an extra year to figure it out), but we do three electives in the 2nd year.

4. Research/Dual Degree year. First, research looks really good on a residency application, especially substantial, dedicated research where you actually published/presented at conferences. Duke gives you an entire year to be involved in research and beef up your application without extending med school. Furthermore, the mentorship at Duke is excellent. I'll be honest in saying that my step 1 score was fine but not amazing...without the third year of research (and my clinical grades, an issue raised by another poster) I would not have done as well as I did in residency interviews/the match. And if you don't want to do research, you can do a dual degree in pretty much anything (MPH, MPP, library science, medical humanities, etc). Duke is extremely flexible for its 3rd year. Plus, it's a much, MUCH easier year.

5. Step 1. More time to study for it, because you can take it anytime during your 3rd year. So you can study a little bit every day for months then take a few weeks off for dedicated study time.

6. 3rd year funding. Lots of funding/scholarships available that are >$20,000.

7. Lots of opportunities to go abroad if you want, even in the 2nd year.

Disadvantages
1. The first year goes faster, and it can be stressful at times. But, you don't go into quite as much detail as some other schools do (you'll learn what you need to learn eventually, sometimes it's on the wards 2nd year, which actually helped it stick for me than just reading it in a book). Besides, what med school isn't stressful?

2. Given #1, Duke students aren't quite as well prepared for the wards as other schools who take 2 years to do the basics. But, the attendings/residents know this and they grade accordingly. Many of us get honors in our first rotations. If you learn better by doing rather than reading, this can be advantageous for you.

3. Step 1. You are further removed from the basic sciences, making reviewing more difficult. It does help some that you've already had a year of clinicals, but I personally had a bit if difficulty separating out how I needed to study for step 1 (vs step 2, the clinical exam). But that's just me, and I know plenty of my classmates who killed step 1. Plus, as I mentioned in #5 above, you have more time to study.

4. Because of the research year, your 4th year will not be as vacation-filled as at some other schools. You'll still have mostly electives, and depending on your 3rd year you can have up to 2 months completely off (which is still less than at some schools that give like 4 months off). But Duke does give 5 weeks for Christmas vacation during 4th year so you can interview without having any other obligations. And by the way, I'm done with med school classes TOMORROW (April 2nd), so it's not too bad . But it can be less, so be aware.


Anyway, there's an overview of how I see the pros/cons of Duke's curriclum. I hope it helps. You're choosing between two great schools, and choose the one that you feel you'll be happiest at (in other words, go with your gut). Best of luck!

 

[JasonE]

steinUMstein, did you hear from umich's financial aid yet? i understand you may not have received a merit scholarship (at least not yet), but there is still need-based aid

 

[naus]

steinUMstein, did you hear from umich's financial aid yet? i understand you may not have received a merit scholarship (at least not yet), but there is still need-based aid

Need-based financial aid is just subsidized/unsubsidized Stafford and GradPlus loans.

 

[JasonE]

Need-based financial aid is just subsidized/unsubsidized Stafford and GradPlus loans.

don't they sometimes add some scholarship into that? i dont know

 

[naus]

don't they sometimes add some scholarship into that? i dont know

Not for UMich. You are thinking college financial aid. Some schools like UT Southwestern do have some need-based grants for OOSers. Texas also allows students to switch state residency after first year. But Michigan is a state with severe and chronic state budgetary trouble. Any gift scholarship you get today or in Round 2 are going to be pretty much it. And you can't change your state residency to Michigan once you matriculate as an OOSer.

I think UMich has a total of $1.6 million to give this year, less than previous years. Out of a class of 170, that's about $9000 per person over 4 years (keep in mind also that this money isn't split evenly). So not a lot of money compared to what some of the private or in-state schools are offering.

 

[JasonE]

Not for UMich. You are thinking college financial aid. Some schools like UT Southwestern do have some need-based grants for OOSers. Texas also allows students to switch state residency after first year. But Michigan is a state with severe and chronic state budgetary trouble. Any gift scholarship you get today or in Round 2 are going to be pretty much it. You can't change your state residency to Michigan either once you matriculate as an OOSer.

I think UMich has a total of $1.6 million to give this year, less than previous years. Out of a class of 170, that's about $9000 per person over 4 years (bare in mind also that this money isn't split evenly). So not a lot of money compared to what some of the private or in-state schools are offering.

yea i see. as an aside, doesnt changing state of residency also depend on the school? i believe becoming IS for michigan state (MSU) is possible.

 

[Soapcat]

Not for UMich. You are thinking college financial aid. Some schools like UT Southwestern do have some need-based grants for OOSers. Texas also allows students to switch state residency after first year. But Michigan is a state with severe and chronic state budgetary trouble. Any gift scholarship you get today or in Round 2 are going to be pretty much it. And you can't change your state residency to Michigan once you matriculate as an OOSer.

I think UMich has a total of $1.6 million to give this year, less than previous years. Out of a class of 170, that's about $9000 per person over 4 years (keep in mind also that this money isn't split evenly). So not a lot of money compared to what some of the private or in-state schools are offering.

wow you are totally making my heart lean toward duke
how come you know so much about this stuff? have you gone through this already?

 

[Soapcat]

I'm a 4th year at Duke. I'll give you my opinions of the advantages and disadvantages of Duke's curriculum if this will help you in making your decision.

Advantages
1. Get lecture done in one year. My husband goes to UNC's med school and he and our friends in his class were so jealous we only had to be in the classroom for one year.

2. Rotations a year early really make applying to residency a LOT easier. Unfortunately, not everyone decides early on what specialty they want to pursue. Imagine being at the end of your 3rd year and being unsure, or just deciding at the end of your 3rd year. If your specialty of choice happens to be a competitive field, it's going to be tough to get any research under your belt after the fact (research isn't necessary for all fields but it helps. See #4).

3. Early electives. I know of several schools who don't give any electives until 4th year, or at the most give one. If you don't want to pursue one of the core rotation fields, how are you going to know what to do? Duke not only does its rotations a year early (giving you an extra year to figure it out), but we do three electives in the 2nd year.

4. Research/Dual Degree year. First, research looks really good on a residency application, especially substantial, dedicated research where you actually published/presented at conferences. Duke gives you an entire year to be involved in research and beef up your application without extending med school. Furthermore, the mentorship at Duke is excellent. I'll be honest in saying that my step 1 score was fine but not amazing...without the third year of research (and my clinical grades, an issue raised by another poster) I would not have done as well as I did in residency interviews/the match. And if you don't want to do research, you can do a dual degree in pretty much anything (MPH, MPP, library science, medical humanities, etc). Duke is extremely flexible for its 3rd year. Plus, it's a much, MUCH easier year.

5. Step 1. More time to study for it, because you can take it anytime during your 3rd year. So you can study a little bit every day for months then take a few weeks off for dedicated study time.

6. 3rd year funding. Lots of funding/scholarships available that are >$20,000.

7. Lots of opportunities to go abroad if you want, even in the 2nd year.

Disadvantages
1. The first year goes faster, and it can be stressful at times. But, you don't go into quite as much detail as some other schools do (you'll learn what you need to learn eventually, sometimes it's on the wards 2nd year, which actually helped it stick for me than just reading it in a book). Besides, what med school isn't stressful?

2. Given #1, Duke students aren't quite as well prepared for the wards as other schools who take 2 years to do the basics. But, the attendings/residents know this and they grade accordingly. Many of us get honors in our first rotations. If you learn better by doing rather than reading, this can be advantageous for you.

3. Step 1. You are further removed from the basic sciences, making reviewing more difficult. It does help some that you've already had a year of clinicals, but I personally had a bit if difficulty separating out how I needed to study for step 1 (vs step 2, the clinical exam). But that's just me, and I know plenty of my classmates who killed step 1. Plus, as I mentioned in #5 above, you have more time to study.

4. Because of the research year, your 4th year will not be as vacation-filled as at some other schools. You'll still have mostly electives, and depending on your 3rd year you can have up to 2 months completely off (which is still less than at some schools that give like 4 months off). But Duke does give 5 weeks for Christmas vacation during 4th year so you can interview without having any other obligations. And by the way, I'm done with med school classes TOMORROW (April 2nd), so it's not too bad . But it can be less, so be aware.


Anyway, there's an overview of how I see the pros/cons of Duke's curriclum. I hope it helps. You're choosing between two great schools, and choose the one that you feel you'll be happiest at (in other words, go with your gut). Best of luck!

Thank you for the info! I am definitely attending 2nd look to ask tons of questions...i hope you are there!

 

[Taffarel]

I also received absolutely nothing from Michigan and am extremely disappointed. Now I'm considering other offers that previously I was not even looking at. I cannot begin to describe how badly I don't want to pay full OOS tuition at UMich.

I e-mailed Dr. Ruiz about my scholarship offer from another school and he was completely unsympathetic. He basically said, "Go there, forget about Michigan. Adios."

This is all coming from someone who was completely in love with Michigan and dead-set on going there 24 hours ago. A lot changes when a school says, "Hey, screw yourself and go insanely in debt." My family has absolutely no money, so it makes this all hurt even worse. It's like I never had a chance. Kind of wish I had just been rejected straight-up.

/end rant

Director Ruiz really said that?! wow...He seemed like a cool guy. At my interview and during the chats he was very nice. If that's what he really said then...wow

 

[naus]

wow you are totally making my heart lean toward duke
how come you know so much about this stuff? have you gone through this already?

Yeah I'm going to graduate with over $200k in student loans and I live cheap (I just don't have any other sources of support, my parents make $40k total). I should have gone to my state school (although no longer so cheap either). Tuition hikes among medical schools in the past two years have been huge. Almost all are now in the mid-$40k range for private and OOS. And for Michigan it's only going to increase more as the state tightens its belt.

It's pretty irresponsible for all these faculty and admissions officers to talk about service when they are the ones pushing our debt burden so high. Hey as long as it's loans right? I swear if the government increases the cap for Stafford loan sizes, the med schools will just raise their tuition to the new cap level.

 

[SteinUmStein]

steinUMstein, did you hear from umich's financial aid yet? i understand you may not have received a merit scholarship (at least not yet), but there is still need-based aid

I'm expecting need-based aid to be a huge pile of loans. The real money is in the merit packages, which says a lot about what UMich values.

Need-based financial aid is just subsidized/unsubsidized Stafford and GradPlus loans.

Yeah, that's what I figured and that's what others have said as well.

Director Ruiz really said that?! wow...He seemed like a cool guy. At my interview and during the chats he was very nice. If that's what he really said then...wow

Michigan presents a very pretty face to the world. That admissions video, all the random swag in the mail, constant email contact, a terrific second look (or so I've heard). Then again, Pepsi has a really good marketing team and I don't drink Pepsi, so...

Yeah I'm going to graduate with over $200k in student loans and I live cheap (I just don't have any other sources of support, my parents make $40k total). I should have gone to my state school (although no longer so cheap either). Tuition hikes among medical schools in the past two years have been huge. Almost all are now in the mid-$40k range for private and OOS. And for Michigan it's only going to increase more as the state tightens its belt.

It's pretty irresponsible for all these faculty and admissions officers to talk about service when they are the ones pushing our debt burden so high. Hey as long as it's loans right? I swear if the government increases the cap for Stafford loan sizes, the med schools will just raise their tuition to the new cap level.

Service to those in need. Right. Thanks Michigan, this has allowed me to see straight through your bull. It's still a terrific school if you manage to get a good chunk of their merit aid or if you don't care about drowning in debt.

Best of luck to all.

 

[BubbaChuck3]

Not for UMich. You are thinking college financial aid. Some schools like UT Southwestern do have some need-based grants for OOSers. Texas also allows students to switch state residency after first year. But Michigan is a state with severe and chronic state budgetary trouble. Any gift scholarship you get today or in Round 2 are going to be pretty much it. And you can't change your state residency to Michigan once you matriculate as an OOSer.

I think UMich has a total of $1.6 million to give this year, less than previous years. Out of a class of 170, that's about $9000 per person over 4 years (keep in mind also that this money isn't split evenly). So not a lot of money compared to what some of the private or in-state schools are offering.

UMich gives out a lot of grants and need based scholarships. I know this for a fact from friends at UMich and I called the financial aid counselor and she specifically said that financial aid is not all loans. So I would wait and see what May brings. That is why you have until May 15th to make a decision. Also there is still a chance of more scholarships later on. But I am with you OP I am pretty bummed about this too. I am in love with UMich and I have some very serious offers from other schools that I need to evaluate as well.

Hey Stein,
What exactly did Ruiz say to you?

 

[SteinUmStein]

UMich gives out a lot of grants and need based scholarships. I know this for a fact from friends at UMich and I called the financial aid counselor and she specifically said that financial aid is not all loans. So I would wait and see what May brings. That is why you have until May 15th to make a decision. Also there is still a chance of more scholarships later on. But I am with you OP I am pretty bummed about this too. I am in love with UMich and I have some very serious offers from other schools that I need to evaluate as well.

Hey Stein,
What exactly did Ruiz say to you?

Here's the modified email so I can stay somewhat anonymous:

Greetings from admissions and thank you for your note. Congratulations on your outstanding award from *insert school*. *School* is a wonderful medical school and I certainly understand the role finances will play in your medical school choice. I regret that we have allocated our scholarship funds and that we were not able to make you an award. While we would be delighted to have you join our community I respect and acknowledge your situation. If you wish me to withdraw your application to facilitate your enrollment at *school* please let me know. We've appreciated your interest and consideration of The University of Michigan. Best wishes, RFR

Cold. Just cold. He didn't say, "Hey, you didn't get one this first round, but we've got more coming in April/May! Keep Michigan in your thoughts!" or "Hey, we've got a lot of need-based grants that might have your name on them, why not stick around and see what you get?" He said, "Adios, lemme know if you want to withdraw. kthxbai."

Also, in my email to him I explicitly said that Michigan was my top choice and that if I were offered some kind of grant aid I would definitely choose Michigan. I only mentioned the other school's scholarship for some leverage and to state how sad it is that Michigan is offering $0 to people who have received upwards of $100k from very similar schools.

 

[naus]

UMich gives out a lot of grants and need based scholarships. I know this for a fact from friends at UMich and I called the financial aid counselor and she specifically said that financial aid is not all loans. So I would wait and see what May brings. That is why you have until May 15th to make a decision. Also there is still a chance of more scholarships later on. But I am with you OP I am pretty bummed about this too. I am in love with UMich and I have some very serious offers from other schools that I need to evaluate as well.

Hehe.. you can wait until your full financial aid package is out and see for yourself. You're going to love signing those Stafford forms, taking the very maximum you can loan ($40,500 a year for "health profession students").

 

[Bbon]

Eye opening.. We've got some rare gems among the posts in this thread. Things you would've wished you'd hear before finding things out the hard way. Of course I'm sure there are contradicting viewpoints out there. But I will say, one of the negative vibes I got from Michigan during the interview day was about the third year. Like three different students in one way or another alluded to it being a nightmare (and it could've been more if the interview day wasn't 90% 1st and 2nd years). Sure you're a bright and happy med student when all you have to contend with is p/f and flex-time quizzes.

This is an issue I have with most med school interview days in general. I hardly ever see 3rd years, which is partly understandable since they're constantly busy. But if that's your most important year in med school, shouldn't that be the one perspective that matters the most? It's pretty much all 1st years who are surprised at how great med school is with the less intensive pre-clinical blocks + p/f grading. Real reassuring. Anyhow, that's the end of that rant.

 

[BubbaChuck3]

Hehe.. you can wait until your full financial aid package is out and see for yourself. You're going to love signing those Stafford forms, taking the very maximum you can loan ($40,500 a year for "health profession students").

Oh I have no doubt there will be loans in there. But I am just saying I would be surprised if there was not some grants or need based scholarships I was not signing with it too.

 

[Taffarel]

after reading these posts it's becoming more and more definite that i'll got to duke - very candid info given here.

 

[SteinUmStein]

Eye opening.. We've got some rare gems among the posts in this thread. Things you would've wished you'd hear before finding things out the hard way. Of course I'm sure there are contradicting viewpoints out there. But I will say, one of the negative vibes I got from Michigan during the interview day was about the third year. Like three different students in one way or another alluded to it being a nightmare (and it could've been more if the interview day wasn't 90% 1st and 2nd years). Sure you're a bright and happy med student when all you have to contend with is p/f and flex-time quizzes.

This is an issue I have with most med school interview days in general. I hardly ever see 3rd years, which is partly understandable since they're constantly busy. But if that's your most important year in med school, shouldn't that be the one perspective that matters the most? It's pretty much all 1st years who are surprised at how great med school is with the less intensive pre-clinical blocks + p/f grading. Real reassuring. Anyhow, that's the end of that rant.

I know what you mean... hard to judge the real feel of a school from some bright-eyed, chipper M1's who have yet to experience the hellish grind of M3 (which by all accounts seems even worse at Michigan than most places).

 

[FluffyRabbit]

Here's the modified email so I can stay somewhat anonymous:

Greetings from admissions and thank you for your note. Congratulations on your outstanding award from *insert school*. *School* is a wonderful medical school and I certainly understand the role finances will play in your medical school choice. I regret that we have allocated our scholarship funds and that we were not able to make you an award. While we would be delighted to have you join our community I respect and acknowledge your situation. If you wish me to withdraw your application to facilitate your enrollment at *school* please let me know. We've appreciated your interest and consideration of The University of Michigan. Best wishes, RFR

Cold. Just cold. He didn't say, "Hey, you didn't get one this first round, but we've got more coming in April/May! Keep Michigan in your thoughts!" or "Hey, we've got a lot of need-based grants that might have your name on them, why not stick around and see what you get?" He said, "Adios, lemme know if you want to withdraw. kthxbai."

Also, in my email to him I explicitly said that Michigan was my top choice and that if I were offered some kind of grant aid I would definitely choose Michigan. I only mentioned the other school's scholarship for some leverage and to state how sad it is that Michigan is offering $0 to people who have received upwards of $100k from very similar schools.

Wow. That being said, I don't think that's too uncommon. I remember Mt Sinai telling us straight up that they don't match financial aid offers during the interview day. It was essentially something to the effect of "If you tell us about your huge scholarship at <School X>, we will simply wish you all the best in <School X's city>. Sorry."

 

[Appless]

Wow. That being said, I don't think that's too uncommon. I remember Mt Sinai telling us straight up that they don't match financial aid offers during the interview day. It was essentially something to the effect of "If you tell us about your huge scholarship at <School X>, we will simply wish you all the best in <School X's city>. Sorry."

id assume thats how most schools work? I mean what you call the school, hey i got a full tuition scholarship at X school...im pretty bad ass wanna match it? It seems kinda odd that any school would take this seriously and do any more then say gl kthxbai like steins experience. That being said personally Id take duke in a heartbeat over mich (or almost any other school honestly).

 

[BlueElmo]

Personally, I would take Duke over Michigan as well. It would irk me to no end to pay twice as much money as IS kids, and yet get the same education and learn the same exact things. Choose a private school, have everyone pay the same money, and that's fair in my humble opinion.

 

[40milerun]

Not trying to take digs at Mich (cause it's definitely a sweet, sweet program, and I'd love to have got in) but I wonder how many applicants apply just for the early acceptance/chance at a scholarship offer without ever really considering the Midwest. Their reputation for generosity seems like it could be a little backhanded if everyone thinks they're going to get $$$ their way, which after today certainly seems not the case.

Ooo, sounds like a sweet poll.

 

[naus]

id assume thats how most schools work? I mean what you call the school, hey i got a full tuition scholarship at X school...im pretty bad ass wanna match it? It seems kinda odd that any school would take this seriously and do any more then say gl kthxbai like steins experience. That being said personally Id take duke in a heartbeat over mich (or almost any other school honestly).

No, quite a few top tier schools would match you or at least entertain the possibility. Mount Sinai (financially troubled until their deal with NYU) is famous for the kthxbai treatment. Basically the poorer the school, the more likely you're going to get the kthxbai when you try to get them to match a scholarship offer. Harvard, Columbia, UChicago, Northwestern etc are all pretty flexible on their offers, and have been known to match top students.

This is no different from the labor market. Your salary is generally determined by your competing offers. That's why you can earn more than a coworker who's been there for many more years than you, simply because you had better alternate offers.

 

[Bbon]

I agree that the way the email was written, though somewhat understandable, was pretty cold. He could've said something along the lines of:

"Congratulations on the amazing scholarship. We really hope in light of the news that you don't close the door on Michigan. We understand the great costs of medical school and intend to give more bright students such as yourself an opportunity with another round of scholarships likely to come in the next month. While we cannot guarantee anything, we'd hate to see you finalize a decision now with both scholarship money and need-based packages still on the table. We wish you the best of luck and hope when all is said and done, Michigan is the choice for you."

Could this possibly be false hope? Maybe. Is it the director's job not to hurt your feelings? No. But a little sensitivity never hurts. Feel for you Stein.

 

[SteinUmStein]

id assume thats how most schools work? I mean what you call the school, hey i got a full tuition scholarship at X school...im pretty bad ass wanna match it? It seems kinda odd that any school would take this seriously and do any more then say gl kthxbai like steins experience. That being said personally Id take duke in a heartbeat over mich (or almost any other school honestly).

No, quite a few top tier schools would match you or at least entertain the possibility. Mount Sinai (financially troubled until their deal with NYU) is famous for the kthxbai treatment. Basically the poorer the school, the more likely you're going to get the kthxbai when you try to get them to match a scholarship offer. Harvard, Columbia, UChicago, Northwestern etc are all pretty flexible on their offers, and have been known to match top students.

This is no different from the labor market. Your salary is generally determined by your competing offers. That's why you can earn more than a coworker who's been there for many more years than you, simply because you had better alternate offers.

Supply and demand. They will compete for you if they have the money. That's the point of a recruitment scholarship, after all.

 

[JJMrK]

I'd do Duke too because of the cool curriculum.

 

[naijaboi]

No, quite a few top tier schools would match you or at least entertain the possibility. Mount Sinai (financially troubled until their deal with NYU) is famous for the kthxbai treatment. Basically the poorer the school, the more likely you're going to get the kthxbai when you try to get them to match a scholarship offer. Harvard, Columbia, UChicago, Northwestern etc are all pretty flexible on their offers, and have been known to match top students.

This is no different from the labor market. Your salary is generally determined by your competing offers. That's why you can earn more than a coworker who's been there for many more years than you, simply because you had better alternate offers.

Harvard does not match scholarship offers - they are strictly need-based. University of Chicago and Northwestern are pretty good with upping their financial aid to draw students, especially Chicago. But they have the money to spend - 10 million in scholarship funds for a class of 88. Compare that Michigan's 1.5 million for a class of 170. Michigan has been known to match scholarship offers as well; they offered the legendary Shemarty a full tuition scholarship from half-scholarship when she tried to withdraw. It depends on how much they want to recruit you - which is very subjective, and of course, how much money the school has.

 

[JasonE]

Harvard does not match scholarship offers - they are strictly need-based. University of Chicago and Northwestern are pretty good with upping their financial aid to draw students, especially Chicago. But they have the money to spend - 10 million in scholarship funds for a class of 88. Compare that Michigan's 1.5 million for a class of 170. Michigan has been known to match scholarship offers as well; they offered the legendary Shemarty a full tuition scholarship from half-scholarship when she tried to withdraw. It depends on how much they want to recruit you - which is very subjective, and of course, how much money the school has.

i didnt think northwestern gave a lot of scholarship money

 

[naijaboi]

They gave me a decent award. I assumed that they gave it out more freely. My bad.

 

[cdubbz]

I say you go with your gut feeling because it is usually right. It seems that based on your interview experience, you are exuding a preference towards U. Mich. Both are amazing places so you won't lose out. And, no discredit to SDN, as it is a very valuable resource, everyone's viewpoints on here are biased by a particular situation that they have had. So, my suggestion is that you refrain from making any more judgments until you receive your financial aid package and concretize that gut feeling at your second look experiences.

 

[bigman225]

Supply and demand. They will compete for you if they have the money. That's the point of a recruitment scholarship, after all.

I think scholarships are actually pretty rare most places (with obvious exceptions--Pritzker) and may be reserved for people who have activities and qualifications that really jump off the page. I have 6 top-20 acceptances, extremely high stats, and haven't had much luck getting schools to "compete" for me. I definitely understand the disappointment in the Umich thread and here, god knows I thought I would get something from WashU, stat ****** that they are. But we aren't entitled to anything. To the OP--I am a huge Duke fan but it sounds like you favor Michigan honestly. I would ignore the disgruntled UMich folks (disgruntled people exist in all professions, institutions, walks of life, etc) and follow your heart. If possible, attend both Second Looks and wait for Duke's financial aid awards to come out first.

 

[medat101]

I think scholarships are actually pretty rare most places (with obvious exceptions--Pritzker) and may be reserved for people who have activities and qualifications that really jump off the page. I have 6 top-20 acceptances, extremely high stats, and haven't had much luck getting schools to "compete" for me. I definitely understand the disappointment in the Umich thread and here, god knows I thought I would get something from WashU, stat ****** that they are. But we aren't entitled to anything. To the OP--I am a huge Duke fan but it sounds like you favor Michigan honestly. I would ignore the disgruntled UMich folks (disgruntled people exist in all professions, institutions, walks of life, etc) and follow your heart. If possible, attend both Second Looks and wait for Duke's financial aid awards to come out first.

 

[catalase]

OP: Congratulations on your "problem." Sounds like you want to go to UM. I'd go there if I were you, but I'm not you. Go where you feel most comfortable. Can't go wrong either way.

Stein: For someone claiming to be economically disadvantaged, you're coming across as really spoiled and entitled. First you equivocate your lack of aid (in the first round) with a rejection. I'm sure that hurt as bad as the few hundred applicants who were rejected by their dream school outright. Then you imply that your lack of aid is reflective of UM's values. I guess value systems come pretty cheap these days, all you need to do is let SteinUmStein in to have moral authority as a school. Then you criticize the "cold" nature of the letter sent back to you, as if they should have lied to you or propped up your ego instead of giving you the facts.

Congratulations on your multiple acceptances and your big scholarship from another school. But show some humility.

 

[Jihad]

OP: Congratulations on your "problem." Sounds like you want to go to UM. I'd go there if I were you, but I'm not you. Go where you feel most comfortable. Can't go wrong either way.

Stein: For someone claiming to be economically disadvantaged, you're coming across as really spoiled and entitled. First you equivocate your lack of aid (in the first round) with a rejection. I'm sure that hurt as bad as the few hundred applicants who were rejected by their dream school outright. Then you imply that your lack of aid is reflective of UM's values. I guess value systems come pretty cheap these days, all you need to do is let SteinUmStein in to have moral authority as a school. Then you criticize the "cold" nature of the letter sent back to you, as if they should have lied to you or propped up your ego instead of giving you the facts.

Congratulations on your multiple acceptances and your big scholarship from another school. But show some humility.

+1

 

[MedMe]

this thread, as others have mentioned, has been really eye-opening for me. to be honest, i'm disgusted by the blatant favoritism that michigan displays amongst its accepted students. this whole fleece or no fleece issue, and the coldness of ruiz's reply email boggles my mind when they try so hard to come across as being a very friendly place. i wish they'd put the money, however little, that was spent on the cd/flash drive/other useless recruiting garbage into things that would actually help students. (this is coming from someone who was awarded a scholarship, so i'm not some disgruntled hater. i'm just let down by mich and feel like it's been all smoke and mirrors).

 

[SteinUmStein]

Stein: For someone claiming to be economically disadvantaged, you're coming across as really spoiled and entitled. First you equivocate your lack of aid (in the first round) with a rejection. I'm sure that hurt as bad as the few hundred applicants who were rejected by their dream school outright. Then you imply that your lack of aid is reflective of UM's values. I guess value systems come pretty cheap these days, all you need to do is let SteinUmStein in to have moral authority as a school. Then you criticize the "cold" nature of the letter sent back to you, as if they should have lied to you or propped up your ego instead of giving you the facts.

Congratulations on your multiple acceptances and your big scholarship from another school. But show some humility.

You don't know me, so please don't judge me. I understand where you're coming from, but in my defense I feel completely misled by a system that claims to help those in need, and just plain doesn't. I'm from very rural Iowa and I guarantee you had more opportunities in both high school and undergrad to put yourself ahead, so I feel like just getting to this point was a major battle. To then be shoved back down by a school that showers gifts on its acceptees and money on its most favored disciples... well, there's bitterness there, and I'm sorry that I came across as "spoiled" in an online forum. I'm anything but, and I think we'd get along a lot better in person. Best of luck to you.