FTF's Worst Idea Yet (Game Over)

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sunshinefl said:
wait now that I think about that more, the wolves would already know she wasn't a wolf because she wasn't in wolf chat with them. So they didn't even need her vote and cross vote with Alissa to know she wasn't a wolf so now im back to be confused about why this even matters.
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Yes, they knew she was not a wolf, and she went after one of their own. Usually, in a regular game, voting out harmful anti-town scum clears you as village to the other villagers. In a game like this, it doesn't have to mean the person voting out a baddie is themselves a goodie or town, because mafia and wolves will battle each other to win.

So visc is saying that since MsP's vote on a wolf didn't clear her of being mafia or anti-town, she wasn't technically cleared and could have still been someone to get voted off later for being some other type of baddie, especially if she actually was, which they likely couldn't have known.

And this point is true, but willing to bet the wolves didn't want to bank on village turning against MsP later when she had a pro-town record so far. There are other reasons or entities that could have killed her.

Point is that without knowing for sure what someone is, having a vote on a for sure anti town entity can only curry you favor with village.
 
Viscernable said:
I’m interested in this. Her stubborn and vocal refusal to accept a claim until she could verify it herself, even at the expense of people finding her suspicious for it, seems more like sincere scumhunting* to me. What makes you read her more wolfy for it?
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I've seen her do it as affiliations so it's not something clearing to me.
Viscernable said:
* I will continue to use scum to mean “village-exclusive or inherently antivillage (e.g. serial killer) wincon”. @Crayola227 and @Animal Midwife have their view of it and that’s fine, but their definition isn’t the only one. I’ve always used mafiascum’s “Scum is a catch-all term for any member of an informed minority” and Starcraft Mafia Wiki’s “Scum – Refers to any role that is opposed to the Town winning the game, mostly notably any Mafia/ Triad or Neutral Evil role. The Town's objective is usually to eliminate all of the scum in a game via lynch or night kill”. I don’t see the point of using it to just mean non-village... it leaves you without a short way to say “roles/factions that village needs dead”, and you might as well just say non-village.
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Okay but even the one you linked says "Scum is a catch-all term for any member of an informed minority". It's not any more negative in meaning than non-village is. It's why I use the modifiers "exclusive" and "inclusive" to clarify whether they're bad or good.
 
Animal Midwife said:
The thing is, the exclusive scum can't win with other exclusive scum. So mafia, sk, cultists, etc. are just as much as a threat to wolves as they are to village.
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I get what you’re saying, but village knowing she (very probably) wasn’t wolfing doesn’t have bearing on that. Wolves know who’s a wolf from the start, someone being cleared of wolfing in the eyes of non-village doesn’t make them a better NK in terms of hunting for competing factions.
 
Crayola227 said:
Yes, they knew she was not a wolf, and she went after one of their own. Usually, in a regular game, voting out harmful anti-town scum clears you as village to the other villagers. In a game like this, it doesn't have to mean the person voting out a baddie is themselves a goodie or town, because mafia and wolves will battle each other to win.

So visc is saying that since MsP's vote on a wolf didn't clear her of being mafia or anti-town, she wasn't technically cleared and could have still been someone to get voted off later for being some other type of baddie, especially if she actually was, which they likely couldn't have known.

And this point is true, but willing to bet the wolves didn't want to bank on village turning against MsP later when she had a pro-town record so far. There are other reasons or entities that could have killed her.

Point is that without knowing for sure what someone is, having a vote on a for sure anti town entity can only curry you favor with village.
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This is exactly why I dont understand pippy saying MsP was "basically clear"
 
sunshinefl said:
wait now that I think about that more, the wolves would already know she wasn't a wolf because she wasn't in wolf chat with them. So they didn't even need her vote and cross vote with Alissa to know she wasn't a wolf so now im back to be confused about why this even matters.
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The cross vote made MsP look pretty good, so the odds of her getting misyeeted later went down, no matter what her true Aff was.
 
PippyPony said:
@Zenge142 I will expect to see justification with your reasoning, including who would be on my wolf team

I think I'm actually doing a pretty decent job of wolf hunting this game and thought I was going to get killed last night for it.
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I wasn’t really sure how to read the interactions between you and Dubz. There were things on both sides that pinged me but overall it didn’t feel like it was v/v. Same with the your paws interactions. Knowing that Dubz is village (close enough anyway), the non v/v vibes I got from the interactions, are more leaning toward you being scum.

This also pinged me. Hard.
PippyPony said:
In all seriousness can someone explain what is different about wolves vs mafia? That's not a distinction we have here and I keep using the word interchangeably and I'm gathering that's incorrect if some of them can have roles that the other can't.
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Like I refuse to believe you don’t know about their being different factions with different wincons. This seems like you’re in a non-wolf scum faction trying to make it seem like there’s not more factions other than wolves out there by feigning ignorance.

Im not sure fly voting for you, but I don’t read your interactions with Dubz as v/v and statements like this one struck me as suspicious.
 
Viscernable said:
I get what you’re saying, but village knowing she (very probably) wasn’t wolfing doesn’t have bearing on that. Wolves know who’s a wolf from the start, someone being cleared of wolfing in the eyes of non-village doesn’t make them a better NK in terms of hunting for competing factions.
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Right, but they don't know who's village vs exclusive scum in multiball. Any of those factions can stop them from winning.
 
Zenge142 said:
I wasn’t really sure how to read the interactions between you and Dubz. There were things on both sides that pinged me but overall it didn’t feel like it was v/v. Same with the your paws interactions. Knowing that Dubz is village (close enough anyway), the non v/v vibes I got from the interactions, are more leaning toward you being scum.

This also pinged me. Hard.

Like I refuse to believe you don’t know about their being different factions with different wincons. This seems like you’re in a non-wolf scum faction trying to make it seem like there’s not more factions other than wolves out there by feigning ignorance.

Im not sure fly voting for you, but I don’t read your interactions with Dubz as v/v and statements like this one struck me as suspicious.
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Did you bother to read what I was asking about specifically with that post that pinged you? Someone kept mentioning things like wolves can't do XYZ, Mafia can't do XYZ, and seeing as on this site we do not have distinctions between those things, I was wondering if there was something that I was inherently missing about the way that those terms are used on MU. It has nothing to do with whether they are different factions. I understand the concept of factions.
 
Viscernable said:
I’m interested in this. Her stubborn and vocal refusal to accept a claim until she could verify it herself, even at the expense of people finding her suspicious for it, seems more like sincere scumhunting* to me. What makes you read her more wolfy for it?
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Not her refusal to move her vote, albeit that was odd. It was yesterday’s interactions I was looking at more closely.
 
To further clarify, I was confused about whether there was an inherent limitation present of any kind for mafia versus wolves, in the context of this particular game, which uses affiliation flavoring that is separate from SDN norm.
 
And Zenge, FTF further clarified in my roll PM that those things in fact do exist. For example, seers can only investigate wolves, not mafia. That is an important distinction that is different from just understanding that there are factions present. It speaks to whether village roles are able to carry out investigative actions successfully in a game like this. Which I think is extremely important to know.
 
At this point since WZ may close day early I think my biggest feels right now are zenge. April is a vill read as she has been most consistent. I'm going to ignore WZ and vicks for now cuz I can never remember how they work out in numbers but I think it's ok ( I'm not 100% sold on vis claim yet, just not ready to vote there today)

vote zenge
 
PippyPony said:
And Zenge, FTF further clarified in my roll PM that those things in fact do exist. For example, seers can only investigate wolves, not mafia. That is an important distinction that is different from just understanding that there are factions present. It speaks to whether village roles are able to carry out investigative actions successfully in a game like this. Which I think is extremely important to know.
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Seriously?
 
PippyPony said:
I understand the concept of factions.
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I know you do.
PippyPony said:
Oh I see, I'm a bad guy, just a different bad guy.

How do we even know there is more than one bad guy faction in this game? Like really -- can anyone point me to where there is evidence from FTF that he didn't restrict the offered roles to minimize factions? What if my rejected mafia role was the only one?
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This is another reason why it pings me.
You’re asking before what the difference is between mafia and wolves. But you clearly turned down one mafia role, we see wolves and mafia were on the list of possible roles, and we’ve flipped wolves and you tried to float this idea that maybe other factions aren’t even in the game.
 
Viscernable said:
I’m interested in this. Her stubborn and vocal refusal to accept a claim until she could verify it herself, even at the expense of people finding her suspicious for it, seems more like sincere scumhunting* to me. What makes you read her more wolfy for it?

* I will continue to use scum to mean “village-exclusive or inherently antivillage (e.g. serial killer) wincon”. @Crayola227 and @Animal Midwife have their view of it and that’s fine, but their definition isn’t the only one. I’ve always used mafiascum’s “Scum is a catch-all term for any member of an informed minority” and Starcraft Mafia Wiki’s “Scum – Refers to any role that is opposed to the Town winning the game, mostly notably any Mafia/ Triad or Neutral Evil role. The Town's objective is usually to eliminate all of the scum in a game via lynch or night kill”. I don’t see the point of using it to just mean non-village... it leaves you without a short way to say “roles/factions that village needs dead”, and you might as well just say non-village.
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Because of our site meta, despite Flushy using some new concepts, I'm willing to use scum for all but true neutral who win with either side and use true neutral for those non-village entities.
 
Viscernable said:
Are you trying to make these roles make sense? Other roles in the game include a bodyguard who tries to kill their target and someone who can only hammer vote and can’t hammer vote, lol
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lol yeah they're bastard roles but that's what makes your claim weird. Yours would never have an effect because we wouldn't get that far. Versus WZ's role having the effect to give her a non-action also, but taking away something we normally have (a vote).

You may be telling the truth about your role to an extent, like maybe what you said is true-is except your magic vote happens on day 4. And since you are NOT town, we don't know if you would take a pro-town action that is game-deciding.
 
and FURTHERMORE, We actually do use those terms interchangeably in games here, where they do not always mean separate factions. Sometimes people who are more used to using the mafia terminology will say things like cop, whereas those of us who are more used to the werewolf conventions will say seer. In the same game. I don't think it is unfair to ask what the difference is and make sure that the affiliation and role parameters are as clarified as they can be, because after yesterday it was quite clear to me that I was misunderstanding a lot of things and it was a problem.

Lastly, Cray had the same questions and I don't see you asking her about why she was asking the same exact things.
 
sunshinefl said:
lol yeah they're bastard roles but that's what makes your claim weird. Yours would never have an effect because we wouldn't get that far. Versus WZ's role having the effect to give her a non-action also, but taking away something we normally have (a vote).

You may be telling the truth about your role to an extent, like maybe what you said is true-is except your magic vote happens on day 4. And since you are NOT town, we don't know if you would take a pro-town action that is game-deciding.
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The description does say pl/2 in the role list but I wonder if that changes as people die.
 
JustPaws said:
One minute later:


Which is it
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There’s a difference between reading them initially, and going back later to look at them in context of other information.

Knowing Dubz’s role now, I have stronger scum leans on Pippy. This makes me want to re-read the interactions between you and Pippy in the context of that updated read.
 
Zenge142 said:
I know you do.

This is another reason why it pings me.
You’re asking before what the difference is between mafia and wolves. But you clearly turned down one mafia role, we see wolves and mafia were on the list of possible roles, and we’ve flipped wolves and you tried to float this idea that maybe other factions aren’t even in the game.
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Do you know for 100% sure that a mafia player ended up in the game? Have we flipped a mafia player? Are you a mafia player?

If you can't answer yes to any of those questions, then it looks like you are just finding a reason to be fake suspicious of me asking questions, when most of yesterday people were all up in my grill about not asking enough questions.

Bad look.
 
PippyPony said:
Do you know for 100% sure that a mafia player ended up in the game? Have we flipped a mafia player? Are you a mafia player?

If you can't answer yes to any of those questions, then it looks like you are just finding a reason to be fake suspicious of me asking questions, when most of yesterday people were all up in my grill about not asking enough questions.

Bad look.
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Again, you’re trying to drive the thread down this rabbit hole of unknowns. I don’t care what factions may or may not exist. I’m just looking at things that ping me. You’ve said and done things that have pinged me. I don’t think you would have been wolfing with Alissa or thrown the shade you did on Genny if you were in a pack with them, so I’m inclined to think, if my feelings on you are right, you’re part of another scum faction.
 
@Animal Midwife in interest of placing a vote earlier rather than later, what would happen if I voted Visc rn? I don't want to hammer or anything like that. And too lazy/tired rn to look at FTF vote count sheet and I have no idea how updated it is anyway


Also what do you think about a visc vote today?
 
Votecount Update 2.1

1619136019810.png


@Viscernable is in the lead! Three hours to go!

Message me if there any issues with the votes
 
sunshinefl said:
lol yeah they're bastard roles but that's what makes your claim weird. Yours would never have an effect because we wouldn't get that far. Versus WZ's role having the effect to give her a non-action also, but taking away something we normally have (a vote).

You may be telling the truth about your role to an extent, like maybe what you said is true-is except your magic vote happens on day 4. And since you are NOT town, we don't know if you would take a pro-town action that is game-deciding.
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You don’t have to take my word, it’s in the role list
 
Zenge142 said:
Again, you’re trying to drive the thread down this rabbit hole of unknowns. I don’t care what factions may or may not exist. I’m just looking at things that ping me. You’ve said and done things that have pinged me. I don’t think you would have been wolfing with Alissa or thrown the shade you did on Genny if you were in a pack with them, so I’m inclined to think, if my feelings on you are right, you’re part of another scum faction.
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Okay thank you.

I hope you realize that I have been pushing the same concept -- to look at posts and pairings -- since yesterday, though.

So basically you are sussing me for the same thing you are trying to do lol.
 
PippyPony said:
Okay thank you.

I hope you realize that I have been pushing the same concept -- to look at posts and pairings -- since yesterday, though.

So basically you are sussing me for the same thing you are trying to do lol.
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Okay, so other than Dubz and now me, who are you wolf/Scum reading?
 
I’m gonna

vote: cray

because that’s where my strongest feelz are. Might go for Z later this hour (Dubz was planning to do her early day-close in about an hour, correct?), because he’s my second-strongest scumread, but I’m not super concerned about self-preserving because again, I’m not as invested in winning as I am in just trying to solve who’s scummy, and yeeting me is a waste of a day cycle but at least doesn’t get wolves/mafia/cult closer to parity.
 
@Animal Midwife Do you have any updated thoughts about vis’s claim? I’m not entirely sure how to interpret the role.
 
PippyPony said:
I should use dictation all the time -- This is so much faster, Oh my god lol
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Hmmm considering I always play on my phone maybe I should just give in and tell my phone to eavesdrop on me since it probably is anyway, lol
 
Aprilthearab said:
@PippyPony I just got out of work and have not caught up yet but I saw your accidental tag in another thread and figured I'd respond. My read on AM is pretty squarely non-scum (can't say whether 3P or village/town whatever), the fact that she discarded a town role made me think she probably did not choose wolf or mafia and everything I've heard from her since then seems in line with her village meta. Not familiar with her 3P meta so I can't comment on that
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Have you caught up yet? Do you have any updated reads?
 
Zenge142 said:
Okay, so other than Dubz and now me, who are you wolf/Scum reading?
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I think I made it clear by moving my vote earlier that I feel less wolfy on dubz now. If she can close voting early, then she is not fake claiming that role, and it is up to the bad guys to eliminate her, not me.

I feel like AM is selectively reading quite a few things and has a strange interpretation of voting patterns this game, but I have a pretty solid village read on April and I think April has some of the best reads that I have seen in a long time, so I am taking her word on AM for today.

Sunshine is agreeing with me a lot and she pocketed me at the last time she was a wolf, but I like to read list and as I've already said, I don't really get a wolfy vibe from her.

I think you keep popping on whenever somebody mentions you, and that is weird considering that you are usually a very strong villager and a good wolf hunter and I have barely seen any reads from you -- other than the read on me, which is wrong.

I am agreeing a little bit too much with Cray for comfort and I started defending her earlier today and that makes me uncomfortable, but I don't think she would sell out alissa like that.

I think visc's vote yesterday was sketchy And some of the logic today seems a bit wolf aligned, but people are already voting there and pressuring her, and as I said earlier today I feel like it is good to have multiple options up for discussion.

Who am I missing? I feel like I'm missing people.
 
PippyPony said:
I think I made it clear by moving my vote earlier that I feel less wolfy on dubz now. If she can close voting early, then she is not fake claiming that role, and it is up to the bad guys to eliminate her, not me.

I feel like AM is selectively reading quite a few things and has a strange interpretation of voting patterns this game, but I have a pretty solid village read on April and I think April has some of the best reads that I have seen in a long time, so I am taking her word on AM for today.

Sunshine is agreeing with me a lot and she pocketed me at the last time she was a wolf, but I like to read list and as I've already said, I don't really get a wolfy vibe from her.

I think you keep popping on whenever somebody mentions you, and that is weird considering that you are usually a very strong villager and a good wolf hunter and I have barely seen any reads from you -- other than the read on me, which is wrong.

I am agreeing a little bit too much with Cray for comfort and I started defending her earlier today and that makes me uncomfortable, but I don't think she would sell out alissa like that.

I think visc's vote yesterday was sketchy And some of the logic today seems a bit wolf aligned, but people are already voting there and pressuring her, and as I said earlier today I feel like it is good to have multiple options up for discussion.

Who am I missing? I feel like I'm missing people.
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Me silly
 
Crayola227 said:
@Animal Midwife in interest of placing a vote earlier rather than later, what would happen if I voted Visc rn? I don't want to hammer or anything like that. And too lazy/tired rn to look at FTF vote count sheet and I have no idea how updated it is anyway


Also what do you think about a visc vote today?
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I'm conflicted. I don't think we'll ever be able to confirm her role short of proper affiliation checking, but I'd also like to not vote out an inclusive 3p if she's telling the truth.

Your vote wouldn't hammer.
 
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