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Med School of the Week: U Penn

Discussion in 'Allopathic School-Specific Discussions (<2018)' started by Tanya, Nov 29, 1999.

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  1. Tanya

    Tanya Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Sep 9, 1999
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    I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving.
    This week the spotlight is on University of Pennsylvania. This medical school has a long history since it was the first school of medicine established in the US in 1765. It is a private non-denominational school.

    University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania http://www.med.upenn.edu/admiss
    Tuition: $28,470

    Average matriculants stats: 3.75 GPA 11.5 MCAT

    Applicants: 7,465 Total; 851 In State; 6,614 Out-of-State
    Interviewed: 1,028 Total; 144 In State; 884 Out-of-State
    Entering Class: 143 Total; 34 In State; 109 Out-of-State 46.2% women
    (Source: AAMC Data Warehouse 1998-199 class)

    Curriculum: medical education is spread across ?5 modules? as part of Curriculum2000?
    Module 1- Core Principles, Students learn the fundamental concepts of basic science that underlie the biomedical basis of disease; Module 2- Integrative Systems and Diseases, Includes five organ system blocks integrated with anatomy, histology, physiology, pathophysiology, pathology, microbiology, and pharmacology. Module3 (concurrent with Modules 1 and 2)- The art and practice of medicine. Here students develop skills in history taking, physical exam administration, ethics, differential diagnosis, clinical epidemiology, professionalism and humanism; Module 4- Core Clinical clerkships with primary emphasis on developing clinical skills. All required clerkships include ambulatory and inpatient experiences; Module 5- Electives, Selectives, and Scholarly Pursuit. During the lasts months of the medical education students are encouraged to explore individual interests?

    (Source: AAMC Medical school admission requirements, United States and Canada 2000-2001)

    Class of '05 at ????
    "Just like moons and like suns,
    With the certainty of tides,
    Just like hopes springing high,
    Still I'll rise" -Maya Angelou "Still I Rise"

    [This message has been edited by Tanya (edited 12-01-1999).]
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  3. Tanya

    Tanya Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Sep 9, 1999
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  4. japhy

    japhy Ski Bum
    10+ Year Member

    Nov 8, 1999
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    Resident [Any Field]
    Thanks again Tanya. I have been interested in UPenn since I found out that they offer a dual md/jd program. Someone in the admissions office put me in touch with a student there who is in his fourht year of the six year program. he said that it was an incredible school. Great students, wonderful faculty and administrators who do everyhting in their power to help you succeed. To answer your(much)earlier question, most schools that I have contacted have been very quick to get back to me and have been extremely helpful. Some have even helped me get in touch with the students. This is probably the best thing becauase no one like the students can give you the real scoop on the school like the students. Thanks again.

    [This message has been edited by japhy (edited 12-02-1999).]
  5. Tanya

    Tanya Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Sep 9, 1999
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    Thanks for your input japhy. I am getting quite interested in U Penn the more I research. The school seems to be quite dynamic. They make medical education sound even more exciting. I can't wait to get in!

    I will be contacting their admissions office later this week to let them know my interest. Hopefully I will get in touch with students, as you have.

    More links to Sites related to U Penn

    Oncolink http://cancer.med.upenn.edu/

    Bioethics.net http://www.med.upenn.edu/~bioethic/

    List of Research Institutes at U Penn http://www.upenn.edu/VPGE/centers.html

    THEMAN Junior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Nov 5, 1999
    Likes Received:
    Tanya...now offense, but don't you think you're being a little cocky..."...Class od 2005 ???"..."I can't wait to get in!"
    Do you know how many people apply every year and get in nowhere? Have you already been accepted to a program and deferred? If not, I wouldn't be so sure of myself. As for Penn, what makes you so sure you'll be getting in? Penn is one of my top choices, but I have yet to hear a whisper from them regardless of a very strong application...goes to show how its all a crapshoot.
    Self confidence is one thing, but blatant arrogance is just not prudent in our field.


  7. Tanya

    Tanya Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Sep 9, 1999
    Likes Received:
    If I don't get accepted next year I will change my signature to "class of 2006." If I don?t get in the year after that I will change it again and so forth...My signature is a source of positive inspiration for me. It IS NOT meant to exude an air of arrogance. If I wanted to do that I would shout out fake stats all over the TPR board (my real stats are nothing to shout about!). I respect this bulletin board community as a source of valuable information. I wanted to contribute to that quality.

    For clarification: When I said "I can't wait to get in" I meant to 'any medical school.' in the most GENERAL of terms. I'm not even in the application process! I will be applying NEXT year.

    "Med School of the Week" is just a place where I post information about schools that I find on the net and in research. I am trying to share with all and, perhaps get some insight from others. I welcome any requests for a med school feature or constructive feedback. So far I have been choosing private schools at random.

    Don't you think calling yourself "THEMAN" could be construed as arrogant ??? I think the real problem may be that you (mistakenly) viewed me as a competitor for your spot in the Penn class ?04. I hope I have fully explained that I am not in the race. There is no need to attack.

    Would you share your experiences with Penn and their interview process? What do you think of the facilities and the classrooms? Did the students seem to like it there? How is the location?

    Class of '05 at ????
    "Just like moons and like suns,
    With the certainty of tides,
    Just like hopes springing high,
    Still I'll rise" -Maya Angelou "Still I Rise"

  8. Stasia

    Stasia Junior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Likes Received:
    Just my $.02.

    I thought your signature showed confidence, and was not at all cocky. I think it's good that you have enough confidence in yourself to make that part of your signature, but as you said in your post you will change it if at first you don't succeed. I also like the poem you quoted as part of your signature.

    You Go Girl!!!!!! I wish more women showed as much confidence as you.
  9. japhy

    japhy Ski Bum
    10+ Year Member

    Nov 8, 1999
    Likes Received:
    Resident [Any Field]

    You don't need to put up with this crap. I also feel your signiture is a sign of confidence, not arrogance. One truly needs to go into the application process confident. If you think that you can get in, well there certainly is a lot to say about a positive attitude. Once again, I really appreciate these posts. It gives everyone a chance to get in touch with different schools and see if that school is right for them. so to THEMAN, back off. Tanya is a nice lady.
  10. Tanya

    Tanya Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Sep 9, 1999
    Likes Received:
    To Stasia and japhy,

    Thank you very much for your support! It means alot.

    I really believe in positive visualization and good attitudes to get what you want out of life. If you can clearly see yourself somewhere you can get there...

    Now, if I can just keep a positive attitude about studying for finals!

    Class of '05 at ????
    "Just like moons and like suns,
    With the certainty of tides,
    Just like hopes springing high,
    Still I'll rise" -Maya Angelou "Still I Rise"

  11. argonx

    argonx Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Dec 13, 1999
    Likes Received:
    Hello Tanya i am in your predicament in that i will be applying to med-school next year. But there is something i would like to ask you. Have you ever thought about applying overseas? (if anyone can answer i'd appreate it) I wish you the best (i suffer from PMS - pre-med-syndr.) i hope you do well! [​IMG]

    There is more joy in giving then there is in recieving.
  12. Tanya

    Tanya Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Sep 9, 1999
    Likes Received:
    Hello argonx,
    Yes, the thought of going to a foreign medical school had crossed my mind. But I have been advised that I should exhaust all efforts to get into medical school in the US. It is becomming more difficult to get back to the US for residency after you finish medical school overseas. I don?t want to take any chances. Applying this summer 2000 will be my first attempt. As I said above I am trying very hard to get into a school here.

    There is a good thread going on in the ?Everyone? forum http://www.studentdoctor.net/bbs/Forum3/HTML/000055.html

    Also, people have advised me to talk to schools that I am interested in and see where I stand. They may be able help to guide you to solutions. If you have more questions you can email me.

    Good Luck!

    Class of '05 at ????
    "Just like moons and like suns,
    With the certainty of tides,
    Just like hopes springing high,
    Still I'll rise" -Maya Angelou "Still I Rise"

    [This message has been edited by Tanya (edited 12-20-1999).]
  13. chury

    chury Member
    10+ Year Member

    Dec 24, 1999
    Likes Received:
    For anyone interested in Australian medical school:


    Flinders University of South Australia, founded in 1966, is a modern, progressive
    university located just outside of Adelaide, the capital of the State of South
    Australia. Adelaide, a cosmopolitan city of about one million people, offers a safe,
    clean environment at a relatively low cost of living.

    The university is nestled 10 kilometers from the heart of the city in the southern
    foothills of the Mount Lofty Ranges. Looking out from campus offers some of the
    most breathtaking views of the city, the suburbs, and the world's best beaches.

    The campus itself is characterized by modern buildings set in spacious grounds of
    natural bushland, a pine forest, formal gardens, a tree-fringed lake and sweeping
    lawns. The Flinders Medical Centre is located on campus and is comprised of a
    516-bed teaching hospital and medical school with an annual operating budget of
    $110 million.

    The Centre employs approximately 2,300 full-time staff. Many students look at the
    various possibilities that may await at foreign medical schools. Traditionally,
    American students would commonly consider schools in the Caribbean, Mexico,
    and Europe as options. Few have considered medical school in Australia since most
    Australian programs in the past were reserved for Australian residents.

    After several years of conscientious planning, three of Australia's top universities
    have developed a graduate medical program for international students. The three
    universities that are beginning this new program include the University of Sydney,
    the University of Queensland, and Flinders University in Adelaide.

    The first of these three schools to offer the graduate medical program was Flinders
    University which accepted its first graduate class for the 1996 school year which
    began in February. The following is an interview with Dr. Andrew McDowell and
    Dr. Jillian Teubner, both on the academic staff at Flinders and members of the
    International Admissions Committee for the medical school.

    JPMS (Journal of Pre-Med Studies): How does medicine in Australia differ from
    medicine in the United States?

    Dr. JT (Dr. Jillian Teubner): In Australia, I believe we use general practitioners to a
    greater extent because you can't go to a specialist unless you are referred to one by
    a general practitioner.

    Dr. AM (Dr. Andrew McDowell): It works like a filtering system where some-one
    with an illness or condition first sees a general practitioner in the community who
    diagnoses the patient and then may refer the patient to the relevant specialist.

    JPMS: Is this practice dictated by the national health care system?

    Dr. JT: Not really. I think this is just how we approach medicine.

    Dr. AM: It may be partly due to the health care system since the specialist charge
    much higher rates. So you only go to a specialist if you really need to.

    Dr. JT: Our national health care system is not like in other countries such as
    England or Canada where the doctors are paid by the government. In Australia,
    only the doctors that work in the hospitals are salaried by the government. All the
    genera1 practitioners and specialists are private entrepreneurs much like in tbe U.S.
    They earn as much as they can or want. However, the people are subsidized by the
    government for 75-80% of the medical cost.

    Dr.AM: Some centers don't charge any more than what isimg covered by the
    government Medicare program.

    JPMS: What is your medical school curriculum like ?

    Dr. AM: Traditionally, we had six year programs where students came straight from
    high school and usually finished medical school by the time they were twenty-four.
    This system has made it extremely competitive to get into a medical school. There
    are only ten medical schools in Australia and only the students with the highest
    grades from the best private schools could enter medicine. Only the students in the
    top point-one percent were ever accepted.

    Independent research and study is encouraged.

    Dr. JT: It has also been difficult for students from rural areas to get into medical
    school because the schools in the rural areas didn't offer enough competitive high
    school courses. These students need to take some more advanced science courses
    before they could even be considered. This is part of the reason why the three
    universities started the graduate entry medical program. Since the other two
    Australian medical schools taking this approach are fairly large, about 40% of all
    future Australian medical school students will be going through the graduate
    program route.

    JPMS:Why was a graduate program developed?

    Dr. AM: One reason was that the new doctors were fairly young, and even though
    they are extremely intelligent, that doesn't mean they are experienced dealing with

    Dr. JT: We consider communication skills very important in medicine and we felt
    that students with more living experiences would be able to make decisions that
    were more mature. Our admissions people now consider personal qualities equally
    important as academic skills. The students now entering have broader
    back-grounds. We have more students from rural areas and minority backgrounds.

    JPMS: When did the graduate program start?

    Dr. AM: Flinders started with the class beginning in February 1996 and the other
    two universities will start with the class beginning in February 1997.

    Dr. JT: Sydney and Queensland are larger medical schools compared to Flinders. I
    think the intimacy of the smaller class size leads to a happier student body. We have
    fifty-eight Australian students and twenty international students with about 60-70%
    of those students from the U.S. Most of the international students go to American
    undergraduate universities.

    Dr. AM: With our six year approach we had international students mostly from
    South Asian countries that had similar educational systems as Australia such as
    Malasia, Hong Kong, Japan and India. Now that we are moving towards more of a
    graduate school approach like America, our program is more relevant to American

    JPMS: What credentials do you look at when considering applicants ?

    Dr. AM: We look at the academic record, personal experience, the GAMSAT for
    Australians or the MCAT for Americans, and the interview.

    JPMS: Do you have a preference for a student's major?

    Dr. JT: We have no preference for any particular course of study. In Australia we
    do not have the same premedical requirements that must be taken. We do like to
    see that a student has some science background and can do well on the GAMSAT
    (or MCAT), but we do not, for instance, formally require one year of physics or
    one year of organic chemistry.

    Dr. AM: We're looking for people with a sound educational background who have a
    strong interest for medicine and in to help people and serve the community. We
    want people who want to make medicine more "user-friendly" and more empathic.
    In Australia we have about many students who were previously working in the
    allied health professions and about twenty percent are Ph.D's. I think that this
    works well for PBL [Prob-lem Based Learning] schools where the varied
    backgrounds of the students bring much to the educational process.

    Dr. JT: One of the reasons we are changing to PBL is that knowledge in medicine is
    expanding at an exponential rate and there is no medical school in the world that can
    teach everything there is to know about medicine. PBL teaches the students how to
    self-educate themselves so that they will continue to learn throughout their lifetime
    rather than just learn while they are in medical school.

    JPMS: What is PBL?

    Dr. AM: Problem Based Learning is an educational concept that has been around
    for several years. A number of the schools in the states have shown leadership in
    PBL including Harvard, New Mexico and UCLA, and many of the people involved
    with those programs have helped us set up our PBL program. PBL is students
    involved in their own self-directed learning. With didactic learning, students sit in
    lecture halls for thirty hours a week and practice for ten hours. This method can
    often be unenjoyable for students and be-comes reflected in their performance.
    With PBL we keep lectures to a minimum, usually no more than seven hours a
    week of structured time, and the rest of the time the student is assigned to an actual
    medical case.

    Tutors assist students with case studies.

    JPMS: Do the lectures correspond to the case a student is given ?

    Dr. JT: It is very integrated. We must ensure that all important concepts are
    covered and the material is learned. We have a list of textbooks for students to read
    about the various topics covered. In case studies, a tutor directs the students with
    their studies and research.

    JPMS: What is a tutor?

    Dr. JT: A tutor is a faculty member with knowledge in a special area. Some schools
    call the tutor a facilitator because they are not really teaching the group. They are
    facilitating or directing the course of the learning. In fact, a good tutor usually needs
    to say very little. If a tutor sees that a student is getting off track, they will help to
    steer the student back in the right direction. Each case has a set of learning
    objectives or goals set by the faculty. The tutor has to make sure the students
    obtain those goals which they usually do without intervention. Each case is
    evaluated in the end.

    Dr. AM: With each case, students work in groups and must cooperate and share
    their knowledge. It is very non-competitive.

    Dr. JT: In the first two years of medical school there are no grades. Students simply
    get a non-graded PASS, if they pass. Students are not graded until their third or
    fourth year and then they are graded more on their clinical competence.

    JPMS: How does PBL actually work?

    Dr. AM: Students get case stud-ies that integrate the leaning of several disciplines
    such as biochemistry, physiology and histology. As you learn more about a case you
    get more information that helps you make new and better decisions. This is very
    much the way in which medicine is practiced. The whole PBL approach is practice
    oriented. It's not theoretically oriented like a didactic system of learning. PBL
    requires a mature student.

    Patient contact begins in year one.

    Dr. JT: A new case is usually started on a Friday. The students in a group are given
    a brief history and presentation. They must identify what their learning goals are in
    various areas. Members of the group are assigned different items that they are to go
    and research over the weekend. On a Tuesday, the members get together in a
    tutorial and report on what they have discovered and they assess the information by
    interacting with one another. When new facts are learned they decide how the
    information fits in with their diagnoses of the last week. If they started out with
    seven possibilities of diagnosis, they may now begin to narrow it down. On the next
    Friday, half the tutorial is spent finishing that case and the other half of the tutorial
    is spent learning a new case.

    Dr. AM: At the same time during the week, there might be some special lectures
    running about the particular aspects of a case. Also, during each of the cases, the
    students are presented with perspectives on public health, law, economics, ethics
    and psychobehavior. Students also attend their scheduled lectures and additional
    tutorials. We also have scheduled clinical skills training. When researching certain
    aspects of a case, a student will spend time in the library or they may choose to use
    our computers to search databases and the Internet or they may choose to go see a
    clinician, a community agency or a patient for information.

    Dr. JT: One recent case involved a person who had cystic fibrosis. One of the
    scheduled lecture hours was with the President of the Cystic Fibrosis Association,
    himself a cystic fibrosis sufferer, who talked with the students about his experiences
    with the disease. He actually had a heart-lung transplant and the students asked him
    about his quality of life. Whenever we can, we send the students out to the
    community to visit with doctors in their practices.

    Dr. AM: The doctors really enjoy their teaching role. It's a very validating
    experience to have a young person who is so eager to learn medicine want to talk to
    you. The faculty at Flinders is very friendly. It's such a small group, only 80
    students a year, that you can learn every student's first name. It's a very personal
    type of education.

    JPMS: What is the program during their third and fourth years, when students
    receive grades ?

    Dr. AM: It's similar to the U.S. Students have their various rotations in medicine,
    surgery, ob/gyn, pediatrics, psychiatry. There are no formal exams during this
    period. Grades are based solely on clinical performance. During this time there is
    even more opportunity for students to direct their own learning. There are still
    certain topics that must be covered, but they have more latitude in how they
    address those topics. They may select different hospitals in South Australia and in
    the Northern Territory in Darwin where we have a clinical school in tropical
    medicine and rural health. Some students are allowed to go overseas to do part of
    their fourth year. Some of our students have gone to South America, India, Europe,
    Africa and other places that they wanted to go if they had an interest in a certain
    technique or type of medicine.

    JPMS: Does the school help them find these special places to study?

    Dr. AM: Yes. Many of the faculty know people in different parts of the world. I
    helped one of my students find an AIDS hospital to visit in London. Another
    student I helped find a spot in a rural hospital in Bangalor, India. One of my
    students last year went with a consultant on an immunization visit to Indonesia.
    Also, some of our students choose to go the U.S. for some of their electives.

    Dr. JT: We also have rotations called selectives, which are different from the
    electives. For example in a certain elective in medicine there may be six selectives
    which you can choose from in order to broaden or focus your experiences.

    JPMS: What should American students think about if they want to consider going
    to medical school in Australia?

    Dr. AM: I think the experience of an international education is a good one. Students
    need to be enthusiastic. They need to be not just interested in an aca-demic
    education. They can have re-search interests which are very favorably addressed at
    Flinders. Flinders has one of the highest publication rates and research funding
    rates. And they need to be mature and capable of handling a self-directed learning

    JPMS: Are students well prepared for the USMLE (United States Medical
    Licensing Examination) ?

    Dr. JT: At a recent conference on medical education in Holland, there was a report
    that indicated that the passing rate on the USMLE for students trained at
    international medical institutions was less than 50% for step one and step two of the
    exam. The newest study indicated the passing rates by the country of training and
    Australia had a exceptionally high passing rate. In fact, for the part two exam of the
    USMLE, Australian trained physicians had a passing rate of nearly 100% which is a
    higher rate than students trained in the U.S. At Flinders, American students take
    special electives during their education that specifically help prepare them for the
    U.S. boards.

    JPMS: Your tuition is comparable to a private U.S. school. For many students
    this is an important consideration. Is your medical school approved for U.S.

    Dr. AM: The Flinders program is approved. We felt that this was very important to
    set-up early on because we want to make sure that students do not feel like they are
    struggling while they are away. We have approval by Stafford Loans title IV and by
    the ISLP (the International Student Loan Program) out of Boston. The ISLP
    integrates a Stafford Loan with their supplemental loan guaranteed by TERI (The
    Education Research Institute).

    JPMS: What is the application process for American students interested in
    applying to a medical school in Australia?

    Dr. JT: Students need to remember that in Australia our summer and winter months
    are opposite those in America. This being the case, our school year begins in the
    month of February. Qualified students are encouraged to apply prior to June 30th.
    Students can call us toll-free to request an application. We will ask for transcripts
    and MCAT scores which get reviewed by the admissions committee. We then invite
    the best, most interesting students to a formal face-to-face interview conducted in
    cities in the United States. In some very special cases, a telephone interview may be
    conducted but we really prefer to meet candidates. We try to inform most students
    of their acceptance as early as possible in order that they may begin to plan for the
    relocation and make the necessary arrangements early on.

    Dr. AM: Everyone at the university is very supportive of our international students
    and they make sure you are taken care of when you arrive. We want you to enjoy
    your total experience at Flinders on an academic, professional and personal level.

  14. 2011MS1

    Nov 5, 2009
    Likes Received:
    Lol why did you revive a 11 year old thread x.x
  15. Drrrrrr. Celty

    Drrrrrr. Celty Osteo Dullahan
    7+ Year Member

    Nov 10, 2009
    Likes Received:
    Medical Student
    daamn.. med school 11 years ago was cheap 0_0 upenn's like 41k a year now right?
  16. brooklynblunder

    2+ Year Member

    Aug 3, 2009
    Likes Received:
    MD/PhD Student
    its 42k now and like 38k 11 years ago adjusted for inflation
  17. Elpenor

    5+ Year Member

    Oct 14, 2009
    Likes Received:
    Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
    Oh yes

    11 year old threads, my favorite.
  18. GoSpursGo

    GoSpursGo Allons-y!
    Administrator Physician 7+ Year Member

    Sep 30, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Fellow [Any Field]
    Seeing as this thread is 11 years old and was bumped by a banned troll (which you all can't see, as the post has been deleted), I'm going to move this to School Specific Discussions and then close it so that it can drift back to its eternal slumber.
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