Tufts vs Feinberg

[luckyducky87]

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So I am down to choosing between Tufts and Feinberg. I would say that I feel positive about Feinberg as a school (love their new curriculum), and neutral-positive-ish about Tufts (I like the school, but I'm not sure if there's a glaringly "unique" feature?).

I decided that I won't take tuition into the equation because, while I realize Tufts is expensive, it's not like I have a full-ride from Feinberg either (didn't get a financial package from either schools yet)... and I figured debt is debt, it will take many years to pay back regardless.

Location-wise, I live in Boston already, know the area well, am already used to the high cost of living... and really love it here! I didn't get a particularly positive feeling when I visited Chicago for the interview, but of course the city might just grow on me 🙂

A big point in my dilemma comes from the fact that I have a SO who will be starting a PhD program (in one of the science dept's) at the same time. We are looking at our Chicago vs. Boston options, and while we haven't decided, his preference is on Boston while mine is on Chicago. Boston is a big biomedical center with a giant network when it comes to the sciences... which will be a positive for me as well, of course. While Tufts itself might not be as big a research giant as Feinberg is, hopefully I can take advantage of the local network if I go to Tufts...

My question is, would it really be any "sacrifice" to my career plans if I choose Tufts over Feinberg? (which is what several people have told me in person). I don't see myself going after an ultra-competitive specialty, but I do see myself staying in academic medicine. I am not sure how much the name of my medical school matters in the long-run -- for good residency placement, job opportunities, etc. SDN seems to downplay the importance of prestige at an MD level but is that really true in reality?!

 

[Brachyury]

So I am down to choosing between Tufts and Feinberg. I would say that I feel positive about Feinberg as a school (love their new curriculum), and neutral-positive-ish about Tufts (I like the school, but I'm not sure if there's a glaringly "unique" feature?).

I decided that I won't take tuition into the equation because, while I realize Tufts is expensive, it's not like I have a full-ride from Feinberg either (didn't get a financial package from either schools yet)... and I figured debt is debt, it will take many years to pay back regardless.

Location-wise, I live in Boston already, know the area well, am already used to the high cost of living... and really love it here! I didn't get a particularly positive feeling when I visited Chicago for the interview, but of course the city might just grow on me 🙂

A big point in my dilemma comes from the fact that I have a SO who will be starting a PhD program (in one of the science dept's) at the same time. We are looking at our Chicago vs. Boston options, and while we haven't decided, his preference is on Boston while mine is on Chicago. Boston is a big biomedical center with a giant network when it comes to the sciences... which will be a positive for me as well, of course. While Tufts itself might not be as big a research giant as Feinberg is, hopefully I can take advantage of the local network if I go to Tufts...

My question is, would it really be any "sacrifice" to my career plans if I choose Tufts over Feinberg? (which is what several people have told me in person). I don't see myself going after an ultra-competitive specialty, but I do see myself staying in academic medicine. I am not sure how much the name of my medical school matters in the long-run -- for good residency placement, job opportunities, etc. SDN seems to downplay the importance of prestige at an MD level but is that really true in reality?!

Some thoughts:

The research opportunities between Northwestern and Tufts are immense

Just because you did not like downtown Chicago does not mean you won't like the rest of the city

Although you may not want to go into a competitive specialty now, there is always a chance you will change your mind

At the end of the day, the quality of where one does med school matters less than where one does their Ph.D. Going to Tufts over Northwestern may make it more difficult for you to interview/land a spot at certain programs, but if you get a PhD from a less-than-stellar instiution, your career options will be limited. Point is, if you SO gets into MIT and Loyola, you had better move to Boston for their sake or if they get into UChicago and BU, you better move to Chicago.

Good luck with your decision

 

[Duotone]

So I am down to choosing between Tufts and Feinberg. I would say that I feel positive about Feinberg as a school (love their new curriculum), and neutral-positive-ish about Tufts (I like the school, but I'm not sure if there's a glaringly "unique" feature?).

I decided that I won't take tuition into the equation because, while I realize Tufts is expensive, it's not like I have a full-ride from Feinberg either (didn't get a financial package from either schools yet)... and I figured debt is debt, it will take many years to pay back regardless.

Location-wise, I live in Boston already, know the area well, am already used to the high cost of living... and really love it here! I didn't get a particularly positive feeling when I visited Chicago for the interview, but of course the city might just grow on me 🙂

A big point in my dilemma comes from the fact that I have a SO who will be starting a PhD program (in one of the science dept's) at the same time. We are looking at our Chicago vs. Boston options, and while we haven't decided, his preference is on Boston while mine is on Chicago. Boston is a big biomedical center with a giant network when it comes to the sciences... which will be a positive for me as well, of course. While Tufts itself might not be as big a research giant as Feinberg is, hopefully I can take advantage of the local network if I go to Tufts...

My question is, would it really be any "sacrifice" to my career plans if I choose Tufts over Feinberg? (which is what several people have told me in person). I don't see myself going after an ultra-competitive specialty, but I do see myself staying in academic medicine. I am not sure how much the name of my medical school matters in the long-run -- for good residency placement, job opportunities, etc. SDN seems to downplay the importance of prestige at an MD level but is that really true in reality?!

First congratulations on nailing two great schools. I have highlighted portions of your thread that has informed my advice for you. If I were in your shoes, I will go with Tufts. I would not ignore that first impression (gut feeling) that I (you!) developed at first sight with Tufts. There is a very delicate harmony that one needs to establish with a school and its environment in order to enhance your happiness and chances of success while you're there. Four years is a long time to be miserable/trying to adjust to a new location.

Also the 'drinking from a fire hose' analogy that is attributed to medical school demands that you hit the ground running once you matriculate. Doing that at Tufts appears easier since you already know your way around in Boston and will also have your SO available to provide moral support. Long distance relationships also take a lot of time and effort that you would rather channel into your MD program.

While the name behind the school does matter to an extent, the key determinant of your chances of landing your choice of residency is your overall performance in medical school (USMLE scores, LORs and rating during your clinical rounds). These are all tied into an excellent performance in an enabling environment. Besides, Tufts and Feinberg are both PBL-driven schools with excellent academicians and affiliated hospitals. So, go with the school where you (already feel) will be happiest and where adjustment and settling in will be less stressful.

So I would choose Tufts. But then, the call is yours to make. Good luck.

 

[drizzt3117]

You really don't have the opportunity to tap into other schools' research when you are at a program. This sounds good in practice, but there are so many hoops to jump through when you are trying to get a position as a med student that for all intents and purposes unless you're planning to take a year off for research, you aren't going to be doing research at another institution more than the summer between m1/m2.

I would choose Northwestern in this situation, Tufts is ridiculously expensive and not particularly good. The research isn't even close to as good as NW, and NW has elite programs in multiple specialties while Tufts is at best the third best medical school and 5th best medical center in it's own city.

First congratulations on nailing two great schools. I have highlighted portions of your thread that has informed my advice for you. If I were in your shoes, I will go with Tufts. I would not ignore that first impression (gut feeling) that I (you!) developed at first sight with Tufts. There is a very delicate harmony that one needs to establish with a school and its environment in order to enhance your happiness and chances of success while you're there. Four years is a long time to be miserable/trying to adjust to a new location.

Also the 'drinking from a fire hose' analogy that is attributed to medical school demands that you hit the ground running once you matriculate. Doing that at Tufts appears easier since you already know your way around in Boston and will also have your SO available to provide moral support. Long distance relationships also take a lot of time and effort that you would rather channel into your MD program.

While the name behind the school does matter to an extent, the key determinant of your chances of landing your choice of residency is your overall performance in medical school (USMLE scores, LORs and rating during your clinical rounds). These are all tied into an excellent performance in an enabling environment. Besides, Tufts and Feinberg are both PBL-driven schools with excellent academicians and affiliated hospitals. So, go with the school where you (already feel) will be happiest and where adjustment and settling in will be less stressful.

So I would choose Tufts. But then, the call is yours to make. Good luck.

 

[kautionwirez]

NW>Tufts in lower tuition/higher prestige/more opportunities.
Also moving to a different part of the country is a maturing/great experience IMO.

 

[pp77]

You really don't have the opportunity to tap into other schools' research when you are at a program. This sounds good in practice, but there are so many hoops to jump through when you are trying to get a position as a med student that for all intents and purposes unless you're planning to take a year off for research, you aren't going to be doing research at another institution more than the summer between m1/m2.

I would choose Northwestern in this situation, Tufts is ridiculously expensive and not particularly good. The research isn't even close to as good as NW, and NW has elite programs in multiple specialties while Tufts is at best the third best medical school and 5th best medical center in it's own city.

At best the third-best medical school? There are only three.

 

[Illinois2012]

exactly

 

[Chrome19]

Tufts is ridiculously expensive and not particularly good. The research isn't even close to as good as NW, and NW has elite programs in multiple specialties while Tufts is at best the third best medical school and 5th best medical center in it's own city.

What criteria are you using to measure "good"-ness? Because what you just wrote sounds like abject nonsense, except your reference to cost which is sensible.

Secondly, unless a medical student is taking a year or more off, it's incredibly difficult to do meaningful research in medical school. I would wager the higher US News ranking of NW over Tufts is based on a higher number of research dollars in the basic and translational realms of biomedical science. I sincerely doubt Tufts medical students have difficulties matching in their desired fields, assuming strong background work by the student. A notable graduate of Tufts is Roderick Mackinnon, a Nobel winner, and the background for his success is not linked to the "name" of his institutions.

To the OP, your boyfriend should go to the best PhD program possible. This is where the research rankings actually have more meaning and substance, as opposed to the MD degree. Even then, there are good labs everywhere. Roderick Mackinnon did his post-doc research fellowship at Brandeis.

 

[pp77]

It seems as though she has already made up her mind. Honestly, unless she's married/engaged I think the OP is better off going to Northwestern.

 

[drizzt3117]

I guess the way I see it, if you're paying 90k a year you better be going to a top school, of which Tufts is not. Certainly it's not a terrible school and its graduates seem to match decently, but academically it's not in Northwestern's league. Name one elite residency program at Tufts... (and lahry clinic/urology doesn't count, it's as much tufts as mt auburn is Harvard)

What criteria are you using to measure "good"-ness? Because what you just wrote sounds like abject nonsense, except your reference to cost which is sensible.

Secondly, unless a medical student is taking a year or more off, it's incredibly difficult to do meaningful research in medical school. I would wager the higher US News ranking of NW over Tufts is based on a higher number of research dollars in the basic and translational realms of biomedical science. I sincerely doubt Tufts medical students have difficulties matching in their desired fields, assuming strong background work by the student. A notable graduate of Tufts is Roderick Mackinnon, a Nobel winner, and the background for his success is not linked to the "name" of his institutions.

To the OP, your boyfriend should go to the best PhD program possible. This is where the research rankings actually have more meaning and substance, as opposed to the MD degree. Even then, there are good labs everywhere. Roderick Mackinnon did his post-doc research fellowship at Brandeis.

 

[luckyducky87]

Thanks for the input guys....

My SO will be choosing between MIT vs UChicago; I'm not sure what kind of prestige (or perceived prestige) difference there is in their graduate programs. And I do realize that the nametag of the school does seem to make a much bigger difference in the research world among PhD's, more so than for MD's.

Anyway, my mind is not set yet... still mulling.

But a question - why do you gauge a school's "eliteness" by looking at the # of their "elite" residency programs? Is that because many X-school graduates will choose to do their residency at the home teaching hospitals (therefore having a lot of good residency programs at the home school is good)? Or is that because when I'm applying for residencies, program directors at other institutions will perceive my clinical competency a certain way based on how they perceive the teaching hospital's quality? (eg. an "honors pass" will weigh more if it's from school X than Y)

 

[drizzt3117]

Thanks for the input guys....

My SO will be choosing between MIT vs UChicago; I'm not sure what kind of prestige (or perceived prestige) difference there is in their graduate programs. And I do realize that the nametag of the school does seem to make a much bigger difference in the research world among PhD's, more so than for MD's.[/quote

That really depends on the specific field; a lot of the value of a PhD is which lab you work in, etc, obviously there are great labs at both UC and MIT.

Elite residency programs matter because you're more likely to match at your home program than anywhere else, and because you have top notch faculty to do research with and get letters from. Also, PDs will also likely know people there and personal contacts play a huge role in residency selection.

Anyway, my mind is not set yet... still mulling.

But a question - why do you gauge a school's "eliteness" by looking at the # of their "elite" residency programs? Is that because many X-school graduates will choose to do their residency at the home teaching hospitals (therefore having a lot of good residency programs at the home school is good)? Or is that because when I'm applying for residencies, program directors at other institutions will perceive my clinical competency a certain way based on how they perceive the teaching hospital's quality? (eg. an "honors pass" will weigh more if it's from school X than Y)

 

[Sephiroth]

Thanks for the input guys....

My SO will be choosing between MIT vs UChicago; I'm not sure what kind of prestige (or perceived prestige) difference there is in their graduate programs. And I do realize that the nametag of the school does seem to make a much bigger difference in the research world among PhD's, more so than for MD's.

Anyway, my mind is not set yet... still mulling.

But a question - why do you gauge a school's "eliteness" by looking at the # of their "elite" residency programs? Is that because many X-school graduates will choose to do their residency at the home teaching hospitals (therefore having a lot of good residency programs at the home school is good)? Or is that because when I'm applying for residencies, program directors at other institutions will perceive my clinical competency a certain way based on how they perceive the teaching hospital's quality? (eg. an "honors pass" will weigh more if it's from school X than Y)

As mentioned above, being at a top school for a PhD helps largely because that's where the top researchers are at. MIT is generally ranked higher than Chicago, but Chicago is among the top programs as well. At that point I think it's more important for your SO to know who he'd be working with at each school vs just the name of the school itself. That being said, if worse comes to worst, chicago and boston are major airport hubs. You can get a direct flight round trip ticket for about $150.

 

[Chrome19]

Chicago and MIT are excellent choices for a PhD, unless he has a SPECIFIC interest and one of these institutions is notably stronger in that area. Generally speaking, MIT and Chicago are good places such that his career trajectory will be modulated by what he accomplishes and much less by the perceived reputations of MIT/UChicago. It's EXTREMELY important to join the right lab and tackle the right set of projects. Usually PhD students do 3 rotations in their first year to determine the lab they will join, and this can help on the prior front. Regardless, your boyfriend is working with lots of substrate now.

I still think choosing a medical school for the MD based on research is a stupid idea for a medical student. Even if you want to write case reports and other "soft clinical research", these don't cost much and can be done almost anywhere. Secondly, as a medical student you don't have the time to do it in a big way. Basic/translational research is more labor/cost-intensive, and 1 year, let alone a summer, just isn't enough time unless you want to make a small contribution, just as an undergrad would do during summer research programs.

I'm not familiar with residency programs, but the reports I have read place school rankings at the bottom of what residency directors probe. My friend's sibling went to Howard and matched into Neurology at Chicago, another went to Morehouse, had a 250+ step score and matched into Rad at a decent place, although not his top choice. I'm at a stage where I'm concerned and I've investigated this issue by talking to residents and faculty. It's prestige-laden SDN that places more emphases on this.

On the costs front, I was going to apply to Tufts, but the cost made no sense to me.

Finally, I would choose NW if I were in your shoes mainly because of money. And it's much cooler to say "I got my PhD from MIT" 😉

Thanks for the input guys....

My SO will be choosing between MIT vs UChicago; I'm not sure what kind of prestige (or perceived prestige) difference there is in their graduate programs. And I do realize that the nametag of the school does seem to make a much bigger difference in the research world among PhD's, more so than for MD's.

Anyway, my mind is not set yet... still mulling.

But a question - why do you gauge a school's "eliteness" by looking at the # of their "elite" residency programs? Is that because many X-school graduates will choose to do their residency at the home teaching hospitals (therefore having a lot of good residency programs at the home school is good)? Or is that because when I'm applying for residencies, program directors at other institutions will perceive my clinical competency a certain way based on how they perceive the teaching hospital's quality? (eg. an "honors pass" will weigh more if it's from school X than Y)

 

[drizzt3117]

It's not true that you can't get a lot of research done as a med student. I had > 20 publications during med school with the vast majority as first author in good journals, and there are many other people that were able to do that as MD only. Doing research during medical school is all about time management.

Chicago and MIT are excellent choices for a PhD, unless he has a SPECIFIC interest and one of these institutions is notably stronger in that area. Generally speaking, MIT and Chicago are good places such that his career trajectory will be modulated by what he accomplishes and much less by the perceived reputations of MIT/UChicago. It's EXTREMELY important to join the right lab and tackle the right set of projects. Usually PhD students do 3 rotations in their first year to determine the lab they will join, and this can help on the prior front. Regardless, your boyfriend is working with lots of substrate now.

I still think choosing a medical school for the MD based on research is a stupid idea for a medical student. Even if you want to write case reports and other "soft clinical research", these don't cost much and can be done almost anywhere. Secondly, as a medical student you don't have the time to do it in a big way. Basic/translational research is more labor/cost-intensive, and 1 year, let alone a summer, just isn't enough time unless you want to make a small contribution, just as an undergrad would do during summer research programs.

I'm not familiar with residency programs, but the reports I have read place school rankings at the bottom of what residency directors probe. My friend's sibling went to Howard and matched into Neurology at Chicago, another went to Morehouse, had a 250+ step score and matched into Rad at a decent place, although not his top choice. I'm at a stage where I'm concerned and I've investigated this issue by talking to residents and faculty. It's prestige-laden SDN that places more emphases on this.

On the costs front, I was going to apply to Tufts, but the cost made no sense to me.

Finally, I would choose NW if I were in your shoes mainly because of money. And it's much cooler to say "I got my PhD from MIT" 😉

 

[Shmemifly]

We don't know your relationship, so the only answer you'll ever get around here is that prestige matters to some extent (of course it does).

It isn't clear to what extent our anecdotal evidence for the idea that school status matters (more students from top schools at top residencies) is because of a selection bias or the effects of actual elitism in residencies. When they compare undergraduate students who got into top schools and elected not to attend with those that actually did attend, the (fairly large) differences in measures of 'success' like lifetime earnings between students who go to a no-name state school and students who go to an elite school disappear entirely. In that case, it is selection bias.

I would suggest that you make the decision with your belly. IF Tufts is what your heart wants (which is the only case in which you have a difficult med school decision to make, in the other case you have a difficult relationship issue) - one thing to consider is that if you are planning a career in academic medicine there are two more selection steps (res, fellowship) -- after which your medical school name will only matter to the truly elitist. Among fellows and residents I know trying to make it in academic medicine at UCSF, some went to unranked schools, some went to top schools, and there is really ABSOLUTELY no percieved difference between them at this stage. So it only matters to the residency step.

As for residency selection: I would argue that Tufts won't stop you if you are stellar. Consider that SDN's advice is (and should be) tailored to a group at large, for whom the wise advice is: "of course you will have the best options if you go to the best school you can". But while that is true of a group, that logic applies less well to individuals who are making individual choices -- you don't NEED to be maximally able to get interviews at all of the country's top programs in neurosurgery and radonc, you only need to get into one good, strong academic program in the one field that you choose, in a location you are happy with. The only place name will actively matter is whatever marginal difference it makes in the mind of those one (or two) specific residency directors. If you excel, I'm positive that you can find a position that fits and lets you do all of those things from either school.

 

[Chrome19]

What kind of research? And what kinds of journals? I strongly doubt it was in a basic biomedical field. Even the best PhD students are well-regarded if they can get 1-3 good first author papers in good journals. In my field, the best HHMI labs don't publish more than 4-5 papers in a year, on average. And these papers have sprung from work that has taken over 3 years of time-consuming labor by talented post-docs and PhD students working 50-60 hour weeks.

You must be referring to clinical research papers which are generally and significantly less labor intensive than your average basic biomedical paper. And many clinical research papers aren't very good. We trashed one in a lab journal club several weeks ago. The best ones are usually in JAMA, NEJM, or JCI, although the latter two publish good basic science work too.

We had a medical student work in our lab on 1 year HHMI research studentship, and he was able to get one first-author paper in JBC with help from a postdoc and PhD student. I think that's very respectable.

It's not true that you can't get a lot of research done as a med student. I had > 20 publications during med school with the vast majority as first author in good journals, and there are many other people that were able to do that as MD only. Doing research during medical school is all about time management.

 

[drizzt3117]

My research during med school has been mostly translational, published mostly in the medical physics, biomedical engineering, radiology, stroke, and neuroscience journals, with a few basic science manuscripts on animal models of aneurysms. I am managing 3 projects that have 3 PhD students and a few 1st-2nd year med students working on them; I have grants from the NIH, RSNA, and American heart association funding my research. I had two years of full time basic science research in a similar area prior to med school with a masters and pubs in several of the nature journals.

What kind of research? And what kinds of journals? I strongly doubt it was in a basic biomedical field. Even the best PhD students are well-regarded if they can get 1-3 good first author papers in good journals. In my field, the best HHMI labs don't publish more than 4-5 papers in a year, on average. And these papers have sprung from work that has taken over 3 years of time-consuming labor by talented post-docs and PhD students working 50-60 hour weeks.

You must be referring to clinical research papers which are generally and significantly less labor intensive than your average basic biomedical paper. And many clinical research papers aren't very good. We trashed one in a lab journal club several weeks ago. The best ones are usually in JAMA, NEJM, or JCI, although the latter two publish good basic science work too.

We had a medical student work in our lab on 1 year HHMI research studentship, and he was able to get one first-author paper in JBC with help from a postdoc and PhD student. I think that's very respectable.

 

[Chrome19]

Radiological and imaging research is usually high-turnover, depending on the project--(i) method development usually takes time though. Good luck with making knock-out mice as medical student or doing X-ray crystallography on protein complexes. You would be lucky to get even one paper. Furthermore, I think you might be unusual and your prior background and support structure working with PhD students does help.

My research during med school has been mostly translational, published mostly in the medical physics, biomedical engineering, radiology, stroke, and neuroscience journals, with a few basic science manuscripts on animal models of aneurysms. I am managing 3 projects that have 3 PhD students and a few 1st-2nd year med students working on them; I have grants from the NIH, RSNA, and American heart association funding my research. I had two years of full time basic science research in a similar area prior to med school with a masters and pubs in several of the nature journals.

 

[luckyducky87]

After talking things over, it looks like I will have to choose between being with my SO in the same city vs. Feinberg. I haven't gotten financial information from either Tufts or Feinberg yet... My competitive nature keeps convincing me to Feinberg, and I do think that I love the program there more, but I don't see myself miserable at Tufts either.

For the record, I don't have a genuine interest in doing research. I just did a 3-year research tech stunt doing x-ray crystallography and unfortunately, I am completely turned off by doing research ever again. If I do research again, it may be clinical research or a short-term project so that I have some research on my record for when residency app time comes... I do have an interest in going into academic medicine solely for the possibility of teaching, however. I don't have good enough of an idea of the career path to know if this is a realistic possibility or not, and if so, how much the name of my medical school matters... :-/

Bah, so back to square 1 of worrying...

To think out loud,
~ Location - I can see myself in both Chicago and Boston. It might be exciting to move to a new city for med school in my 20's, but I am happy with Boston and already know my way around (it will cut off a lot of stress, time, and moving costs this summer)
~ Curriculum - I remember Feinberg has the fancy new curriculum combining the normal/abnormal physio during the first 1.5 years... I don't remember the Tufts curriculum as much, other than that it is also a 1.5 year curriculum (I think) and you also spend little time in lecture, and have afternoons free. Both have PBL and completely P/F (no internal ranks). So I guess it's not SO different?!
~ Tuition - I guess I don't have much to go off on this yet without the FA packets

Is there any other big aspect I should be thinking about?