2012-2013 Brown University Application Thread

[Iorek Byrnison]

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Thank you! I realized after asking that my question was more specific, and was just coming back to edit it. Does AMS do the whole "here's a massive scholarship" (a la WashU, Chicago, etc.) enticement deal offered with acceptances for some people, or does everyone go through the process and then are given scholarships/financial aid/etc. proportionally together at whatever time they do that?

Generally, they offer everything all together when you get your complete package. You will still get your package well ahead of the May 15th decision date.

 

[DoctorInScrubs]

Can a current student explain the Integrated Medical Sciences I-IV part of the curriculum? I am trying to read them on the website but am confused. Is it systems based?

 

[Iorek Byrnison]

Can a current student explain the Integrated Medical Sciences I-IV part of the curriculum? I am trying to read them on the website but am confused. Is it systems based?

IMS is a course that runs throughout your first semester. It is not strictly systems based but each block for it tends to have a particular focus (basic immunology, metabolism and biochemistry, and the such). Essentially it's meant to give you a solid foundation and cover some of the topics that are difficult to categorize in a specific category since they cross subject boundaries. The curriculum become strictly systems based with second semester of first year, which is when you start neuro.

 

[ayushman80]

A quick Financial Aid tidbit. Financial Aid will be a huge part of your decision in picking where you will go to med school. And in my opinion it actually should either be #1 or #2 (depending on if you have a family dependent on you prior to med school). That being said. Brown on average offers 15-20K or so of financial aid. Unfortunately our school does not offer anyone "Full Rides." Although some get more grants an some get less. My recommendation is this. Look at the amount of debt that you already have from undergrad. If it is significant then make sure you take that into account when choosing where you want to study. Another thing to take under consideration is cost of living. Places like NYU, Cornell, Harvard (and us to some extent) are located in VERY expensive places. This will HUGELY impact your debt burden upon graduation. And while you might be getting a large scholarship at some of these places, you ahve to ask yourself, will it be enough to compensate for the cost of living? All in all, you guys will get a top notch education if you come here. But make sure your financial ducks are in a row prior to picking ANY med school.

 

[ayushman80]

A quick Financial Aid tidbit. Financial Aid will be a huge part of your decision in picking where you will go to med school. And in my opinion it actually should either be #1 or #2 (depending on if you have a family dependent on you prior to med school). That being said. Brown on average offers 15-20K or so of financial aid. Unfortunately our school does not offer anyone "Full Rides." Although some get more grants an some get less. My recommendation is this. Look at the amount of debt that you already have from undergrad. If it is significant then make sure you take that into account when choosing where you want to study. Another thing to take under consideration is cost of living. Places like NYU, Cornell, Harvard (and us to some extent) are located in VERY expensive places. This will HUGELY impact your debt burden upon graduation. And while you might be getting a large scholarship at some of these places, you ahve to ask yourself, will it be enough to compensate for the cost of living? All in all, you guys will get a top notch education if you come here. But make sure your financial ducks are in a row prior to picking ANY med school.

Oh! One more thing. I am all finished up with the residency application process. We find out where we match in a month or so. Let me know if you guys have any questions on that end.

 

[deleted127837]

A quick Financial Aid tidbit. Financial Aid will be a huge part of your decision in picking where you will go to med school. And in my opinion it actually should either be #1 or #2 (depending on if you have a family dependent on you prior to med school). That being said. Brown on average offers 15-20K or so of financial aid. Unfortunately our school does not offer anyone "Full Rides." Although some get more grants an some get less. My recommendation is this. Look at the amount of debt that you already have from undergrad. If it is significant then make sure you take that into account when choosing where you want to study. Another thing to take under consideration is cost of living. Places like NYU, Cornell, Harvard (and us to some extent) are located in VERY expensive places. This will HUGELY impact your debt burden upon graduation. And while you might be getting a large scholarship at some of these places, you ahve to ask yourself, will it be enough to compensate for the cost of living? All in all, you guys will get a top notch education if you come here. But make sure your financial ducks are in a row prior to picking ANY med school.

Thanks for the advice! I think I'd actually prefer that - having a dozen people with little financial aid and 2 people with full rides, when they could be more leveled...I guess that makes me a socialist. Shucks.

How did you like the clinical rotations? Above the general quality, does AMS do anything differently from other schools in the last two years? The curriculum on its face seems fairly traditional (2 years pre-clinical, 2 years clinical), but I imagine that's just a surface opinion.

 

[aloepathic]

Doubt Aloepathic will be able to give you the specific criteria (last thing they probably need is for interviewees to try to follow some formula for success

That's correct, sorry I can't help more (and honestly, I'd be careful asking your interviewers about specific criteria or anything along those lines as it could come off as kind of aggressive/bitter - just keep it general).

If it's any consolation, I have been honestly, legitimately shocked at how competitive the pool is this year. There are kids who aren't getting in who are leagues more competitive than you used to need to be to gain an acceptance, and although I know that's not much help, know that you are far from alone.

 

[aloepathic]

Oh! One more thing. I am all finished up with the residency application process. We find out where we match in a month or so. Let me know if you guys have any questions on that end.

I also am done and can help answer questions

 

[aloepathic]

Thanks for the advice! I think I'd actually prefer that - having a dozen people with little financial aid and 2 people with full rides, when they could be more leveled...I guess that makes me a socialist. Shucks.

How did you like the clinical rotations? Above the general quality, does AMS do anything differently from other schools in the last two years? The curriculum on its face seems fairly traditional (2 years pre-clinical, 2 years clinical), but I imagine that's just a surface opinion.

The curriculum is really more like 1.5/2.5. You do fairly traditional pre-clinical blocks for your first semester of first year (Biochem, genetics, etc), then switch into organ-based systems for semesters 2-4, finishing in late Feb/early March then taking Step 1 in the Spring before starting clinical rotations in late April/early May. The accelerated schedules is actually a huge advantage, especially if you aren't 100% sure what you want to do or want to do a competitive specialty because it gives you more time for electives (if you're undecided) or sub-internships and aways (if you're going competitive) in May and Jun of your 4th year before most students nationally have finished their third year (most schools start their year in July).

The clinical rotations are absolutely incredible here. Huge emphasis on taking ownership of your patients, a ton of freedom to make your own decisions and in some cases mistakes with a generous safety net to make sure it's all ok in the end, very laid back and nice to medical students (even on Surg there are few aggressive pimpers), etc. Based off the feedback I got and my personal impressions from doing away rotations, you come out of Brown amazingly well prepared clinically and you are able to function at the level of an intern/junior resident while still a third/fourth year student. One of my letters of rec had a direct clinical comparison of me to the other students who rotated and it was *very* favorable (and that is definitely a product of Brown's clinical education b/c I didn't know *anything* before I got here). Additionally, you get to do something called a Longitudinal Rotation which is a setup where once you decide what you want to go into you can pick a mentor from the field and spend 1/2 day per week of protected time with them, no matter which rotation you're on. This is great because 1) you get to escape for 1/2 day per week and do something you really like, no matter which rotation you're on, and 2) you have a very longterm relationship which means the letter the mentor writes will be much, much better than your average residency letter of rec. From talking with others on the trail, Brown is one of the only schools that does this.

The big differentiator for the preclinical curriculum is the Doctoring course. It's very en vogue right now to have early clinical exposure, but the sad truth is that at most schools it's glorified shadowing. Here, we have a guaranteed 1/2 day every week to hone your skills for the first 2 years, and unlike elsewhere, it is definitely not shadowing. You do procedures and take histories on your own as a first year (I did a lumbar puncture 6 weeks into medical school), then as you get more comfortable with the physical exam second year they begin adding that in and by the end of second year I was expected to come out and present the patient to the attending, interpret tests/imaging, figure out what else I would order, and even come up with a differential diagnosis and rudimentary plan. This is what is expected of third/fourth year students nationally, so learning how to do it as an M2 is HUGE and means when you hit the wards as an M3 you are golden.

Hope that helps

 

[deleted127837]

The curriculum is really more like 1.5/2.5. You do fairly traditional pre-clinical blocks for your first semester of first year (Biochem, genetics, etc), then switch into organ-based systems for semesters 2-4, finishing in late Feb/early March then taking Step 1 in the Spring before starting clinical rotations in late April/early May. The accelerated schedules is actually a huge advantage, especially if you aren't 100% sure what you want to do or want to do a competitive specialty because it gives you more time for electives (if you're undecided) or sub-internships and aways (if you're going competitive) in May and Jun of your 4th year before most students nationally have finished their third year (most schools start their year in July).

The clinical rotations are absolutely incredible here. Huge emphasis on taking ownership of your patients, a ton of freedom to make your own decisions and in some cases mistakes with a generous safety net to make sure it's all ok in the end, very laid back and nice to medical students (even on Surg there are few aggressive pimpers), etc. Based off the feedback I got and my personal impressions from doing away rotations, you come out of Brown amazingly well prepared clinically and you are able to function at the level of an intern/junior resident while still a third/fourth year student. One of my letters of rec had a direct clinical comparison of me to the other students who rotated and it was *very* favorable (and that is definitely a product of Brown's clinical education b/c I didn't know *anything* before I got here). Additionally, you get to do something called a Longitudinal Rotation which is a setup where once you decide what you want to go into you can pick a mentor from the field and spend 1/2 day per week of protected time with them, no matter which rotation you're on. This is great because 1) you get to escape for 1/2 day per week and do something you really like, no matter which rotation you're on, and 2) you have a very longterm relationship which means the letter the mentor writes will be much, much better than your average residency letter of rec. From talking with others on the trail, Brown is one of the only schools that does this.

The big differentiator for the preclinical curriculum is the Doctoring course. It's very en vogue right now to have early clinical exposure, but the sad truth is that at most schools it's glorified shadowing. Here, we have a guaranteed 1/2 day every week to hone your skills for the first 2 years, and unlike elsewhere, it is definitely not shadowing. You do procedures and take histories on your own as a first year (I did a lumbar puncture 6 weeks into medical school), then as you get more comfortable with the physical exam second year they begin adding that in and by the end of second year I was expected to come out and present the patient to the attending, interpret tests/imaging, figure out what else I would order, and even come up with a differential diagnosis and rudimentary plan. This is what is expected of third/fourth year students nationally, so learning how to do it as an M2 is HUGE and means when you hit the wards as an M3 you are golden.

Hope that helps

That. Is. Awesome. That was exactly what I was wondering about. Is there any pressure to pick your field early on in 3rd year so as to maximize the longitudinal component? Do people do any international-type rotations/missions/, etc., before 4th year, or is that mostly relegated to the summer between years 1 and 2?

 

[ayushman80]

The curriculum is really more like 1.5/2.5. You do fairly traditional pre-clinical blocks for your first semester of first year (Biochem, genetics, etc), then switch into organ-based systems for semesters 2-4, finishing in late Feb/early March then taking Step 1 in the Spring before starting clinical rotations in late April/early May. The accelerated schedules is actually a huge advantage, especially if you aren't 100% sure what you want to do or want to do a competitive specialty because it gives you more time for electives (if you're undecided) or sub-internships and aways (if you're going competitive) in May and Jun of your 4th year before most students nationally have finished their third year (most schools start their year in July).

The clinical rotations are absolutely incredible here. Huge emphasis on taking ownership of your patients, a ton of freedom to make your own decisions and in some cases mistakes with a generous safety net to make sure it's all ok in the end, very laid back and nice to medical students (even on Surg there are few aggressive pimpers), etc. Based off the feedback I got and my personal impressions from doing away rotations, you come out of Brown amazingly well prepared clinically and you are able to function at the level of an intern/junior resident while still a third/fourth year student. One of my letters of rec had a direct clinical comparison of me to the other students who rotated and it was *very* favorable (and that is definitely a product of Brown's clinical education b/c I didn't know *anything* before I got here). Additionally, you get to do something called a Longitudinal Rotation which is a setup where once you decide what you want to go into you can pick a mentor from the field and spend 1/2 day per week of protected time with them, no matter which rotation you're on. This is great because 1) you get to escape for 1/2 day per week and do something you really like, no matter which rotation you're on, and 2) you have a very longterm relationship which means the letter the mentor writes will be much, much better than your average residency letter of rec. From talking with others on the trail, Brown is one of the only schools that does this.

The big differentiator for the preclinical curriculum is the Doctoring course. It's very en vogue right now to have early clinical exposure, but the sad truth is that at most schools it's glorified shadowing. Here, we have a guaranteed 1/2 day every week to hone your skills for the first 2 years, and unlike elsewhere, it is definitely not shadowing. You do procedures and take histories on your own as a first year (I did a lumbar puncture 6 weeks into medical school), then as you get more comfortable with the physical exam second year they begin adding that in and by the end of second year I was expected to come out and present the patient to the attending, interpret tests/imaging, figure out what else I would order, and even come up with a differential diagnosis and rudimentary plan. This is what is expected of third/fourth year students nationally, so learning how to do it as an M2 is HUGE and means when you hit the wards as an M3 you are golden.

Hope that helps

I will second everything that Aleopathic said. I got the exact same type of comments on my away rotations. I think that it really goes to show how well our school prepares you to succeed.

 

[oncosankenobi]

March 2nd is the final decision date. Do you guys have any idea how many acceptances are left?

 

[DoctorInScrubs]

Are there any decision dates before March 2nd or is that the only one left?

 

[oncosankenobi]

Are there any decision dates before March 2nd or is that the only one left?

I don't know for sure, but Barbara mentioned during our interview date that there's one more decision date for the year and that's March 2nd. The committee meets sometime the week before and we're informed of their decision by the 2nd.

From what aleopathic is saying, there may be applicants who bypass the committee meeting (automatic post-interview acceptances/rejections), so maybe they'll hear before the 2nd.

 

[aloepathic]

I don't know for sure, but Barbara mentioned during our interview date that there's one more decision date for the year and that's March 2nd. The committee meets sometime the week before and we're informed of their decision by the 2nd.

From what aleopathic is saying, there may be applicants who bypass the committee meeting (automatic post-interview acceptances/rejections), so maybe they'll hear before the 2nd.

Nope, everyone hears at the same time (the list of autos is shown at the beginning so anyone who objects can do so). About 1/4 of the spots are left, and if we wind up needing to accept more we will.

 

[aloepathic]

That. Is. Awesome. That was exactly what I was wondering about. Is there any pressure to pick your field early on in 3rd year so as to maximize the longitudinal component? Do people do any international-type rotations/missions/, etc., before 4th year, or is that mostly relegated to the summer between years 1 and 2?

Re international stuff, it usually occurs in between first and second year or during fourth year as an elective. That being said, if it's a priority you can make it work during third year too (one kid in my class went to Haiti almost every month).

No pressure to pick your field early, a stat I hear on a panel discussion last night was that pretty much every year roughly 50% of Brown students are still undecided about which field they will go into at the halfway point of third year (first week of November). The nice thing about the accelerated schedule is that even if you don't figure out until later in second year you still have plenty of elective time before apps are due. I didn't figure out what I wanted to do until the end of the third quarter of third year, but since third quarter ends in January, I still had plenty of time to line up aways, longitudinal, etc.

 

[aloepathic]

The curriculum is really more like 1.5/2.5. You do fairly traditional pre-clinical blocks for your first semester of first year (Biochem, genetics, etc), then switch into organ-based systems for semesters 2-4, finishing in late Feb/early March then taking Step 1 in the Spring before starting clinical rotations in late April/early May. The accelerated schedules is actually a huge advantage, especially if you aren't 100% sure what you want to do or want to do a competitive specialty because it gives you more time for electives (if you're undecided) or sub-internships and aways (if you're going competitive) in May and Jun of your 4th year before most students nationally have finished their third year (most schools start their year in July).

The clinical rotations are absolutely incredible here. Huge emphasis on taking ownership of your patients, a ton of freedom to make your own decisions and in some cases mistakes with a generous safety net to make sure it's all ok in the end, very laid back and nice to medical students (even on Surg there are few aggressive pimpers), etc. Based off the feedback I got and my personal impressions from doing away rotations, you come out of Brown amazingly well prepared clinically and you are able to function at the level of an intern/junior resident while still a third/fourth year student. One of my letters of rec had a direct clinical comparison of me to the other students who rotated and it was *very* favorable (and that is definitely a product of Brown's clinical education b/c I didn't know *anything* before I got here). Additionally, you get to do something called a Longitudinal Rotation which is a setup where once you decide what you want to go into you can pick a mentor from the field and spend 1/2 day per week of protected time with them, no matter which rotation you're on. This is great because 1) you get to escape for 1/2 day per week and do something you really like, no matter which rotation you're on, and 2) you have a very longterm relationship which means the letter the mentor writes will be much, much better than your average residency letter of rec. From talking with others on the trail, Brown is one of the only schools that does this.

The big differentiator for the preclinical curriculum is the Doctoring course. It's very en vogue right now to have early clinical exposure, but the sad truth is that at most schools it's glorified shadowing. Here, we have a guaranteed 1/2 day every week to hone your skills for the first 2 years, and unlike elsewhere, it is definitely not shadowing. You do procedures and take histories on your own as a first year (I did a lumbar puncture 6 weeks into medical school), then as you get more comfortable with the physical exam second year they begin adding that in and by the end of second year I was expected to come out and present the patient to the attending, interpret tests/imaging, figure out what else I would order, and even come up with a differential diagnosis and rudimentary plan. This is what is expected of third/fourth year students nationally, so learning how to do it as an M2 is HUGE and means when you hit the wards as an M3 you are golden.

Hope that helps

Also, for the record, the only reason I know what was in a letter of rec is because I interviewed at a program that shows you your whole application and the letters. That the program was rated #1 in my field was just a bonus, I just wanted to see my letters

 

[aloepathic]

A quick Financial Aid tidbit. Financial Aid will be a huge part of your decision in picking where you will go to med school. And in my opinion it actually should either be #1 or #2 (depending on if you have a family dependent on you prior to med school). That being said. Brown on average offers 15-20K or so of financial aid. Unfortunately our school does not offer anyone "Full Rides." Although some get more grants an some get less. My recommendation is this. Look at the amount of debt that you already have from undergrad. If it is significant then make sure you take that into account when choosing where you want to study. Another thing to take under consideration is cost of living. Places like NYU, Cornell, Harvard (and us to some extent) are located in VERY expensive places. This will HUGELY impact your debt burden upon graduation. And while you might be getting a large scholarship at some of these places, you ahve to ask yourself, will it be enough to compensate for the cost of living? All in all, you guys will get a top notch education if you come here. But make sure your financial ducks are in a row prior to picking ANY med school.

I would add in that although Brown doesn't give "full rides" a 2/3 ride still gets you a pretty long way...

 

[deleted127837]

I would add in that although Brown doesn't give "full rides" a 2/3 ride still gets you a pretty long way...

How common are those?

 

[oncosankenobi]

Nope, everyone hears at the same time (the list of autos is shown at the beginning so anyone who objects can do so). About 1/4 of the spots are left, and if we wind up needing to accept more we will.

Thanks, aloepath. I'll be holding my breath until March!!! Despite being rolling admissions, Brown seems to make an effort to not disadvantage late interviewers..... THANK YOU!!!

 

[umt433]

Are there any decision dates before March 2nd or is that the only one left?

At my interview Barbara said decisions would be coming out on the 1st, probably by noon (as the 1st is a Friday, 2nd is a Saturday). I know it's only one day, but that's one less day to sweat profusely while waiting for what could be a huge decision for a lot of us. Good luck to everyone else waiting on that day!

 

[aloepathic]

How common are those?

A few per year

 

[1stmeds]

I would add in that although Brown doesn't give "full rides" a 2/3 ride still gets you a pretty long way...

Just for clarification, is this 2/3 ride for four years or for first year only, and then you would apply again each year for another financial aid package? My understanding is that we would apply each year for fin aid, but in a situation like 2/3 ride, I wonder if the process would be different. Also, for any award we get, can we expect it to be the same each subsequent year, if all the factors going into determining that award remain the same year to year? I want to know whether I can project any award over four years in order to estimate total COA.

 

[Iorek Byrnison]

Just for clarification, is this 2/3 ride for four years or for first year only, and then you would apply again each year for another financial aid package? My understanding is that we would apply each year for fin aid, but in a situation like 2/3 ride, I wonder if the process would be different. Also, for any award we get, can we expect it to be the same each subsequent year, if all the factors going into determining that award remain the same year to year? I want to know whether I can project any award over four years in order to estimate total COA.

Yes, if your financial situation remains the same, you can expect to get the same package yearly (my package has been excellent from the start and has kept up with any increases in tuition).

 

[1stmeds]

Yes, if your financial situation remains the same, you can expect to get the same package yearly (my package has been excellent from the start and has kept up with any increases in tuition).

ok cool. good to know.

 

[DoctorInScrubs]

How big of a deal are the scholarly concentrations? I am just trying to see if they are a significant part of the Brown curriculum? Do residencies think highly of them?

 

[Iorek Byrnison]

How big of a deal are the scholarly concentrations? I am just trying to see if they are a significant part of the Brown curriculum? Do residencies think highly of them?

The scholarly concentrations are a significant part of the school culture in that a third of students are directly involved in it but it is by no means required and a number of the resources it provides are available to students regardless as to whether they enroll. I am in an SC (health policy) and personally enjoy it quite a bit but if you don't want to make the time commitment, it's completely understandable. The SC is there for some formal structure and support if you want it.

Being a second year, I can't tell you much about how residencies view them aside from what I've heard from 4th years and faculty, which is that anything that enriches your educational experiences, without causing detriment to you clinical grades or board scores, is generally going to be viewed positively but at the end of the day, you are going to be evaluated on your technical capacity, bedside manner, and analytical abilities foremost. It certainly doesn't hurt though to have a few high impact publications, the development of an EM residency curriculum abroad, or the creation of a free urgent care clinic under your belt (projects I've seen classmates complete both within and without the SC program).


Just in case there are more questions regarding the SC's, I've pasted below a response I posted last year with regards to the program. I just quickly read through it and unless I missed something, it all holds true still.

For those of you in the northeast, hope you are all well, have power, and are not snowed in (and most importantly, that you get a chance to sled/ski/snowboard and commit snowy hijinks).






Question: Can any current students talk about the Scholarly Concentrations Program? I was browsing the website and some concentrations have limits on the number of students accepted. How competitive is it and is it easy to find a mentor? About what percentage of the class participates? Is it a significant amount of extra work?


Answer: All most excellent questions. Each SC generally has two leaders who are selected from the faculty. As you might imagine, they typically have a major interest and a good amount of experience in their respective concentration's topic field. While you can most certainly seek these leaders out as mentors, the only requirement is that your mentor is a member of Brown faculty (of course they can be med school faculty but you're more than welcome to select faculty from other departments, grad or undergrad). Generally you find a mentor on your own but if you want the process to be facilitated for you, there's plenty of options, and there's an SC fair towards the end of first semester where you will meet the concentration leaders and they can help you contact faculty who have projects in line with your interests or who can help you with projects you're developing from scratch. As long as you give yourself time, I'd say it's pretty easy to find a mentor, especially given the diversity of faculty interests.

The competitiveness varies of course by concentration. From what I've seen, a well thought out project will get accepted regardless of where you apply and chances are good that a project could fit well within several SC focuses. I have the feeling that global health in past years has may have been a tad more selective than the other concentrations simply because of the popularity of traveling abroad (for the global health nuts out there, yes, I know that domestic issues are a part of it!). They also are the only concentration that requires that you receive a recommendation not only from your mentor but also with someone at the community site you will be working at if you are traveling abroad (sound reasoning). In past years we were told at least a third of the class participates in the SC program. I've asked around and been told that the workload you are committing to is pretty variable. For the most part, people get the vast majority of their research or project done over the course of the summer when free time is of course easier to come by and then tend to take things easy during the academic year, writing up their conclusions and presenting at conferences when appropriate. I've been doing work related to my SC throughout the year but that is by no means expected or asked for (it's nice though if you're like me and need side projects to keep yourself content). In addition, each SC focus has additional components independent of your project. Most have some form of a monthly meeting/lecture/discussion on a topic of interest. Some have a short writing component. Education (speaking without biased since it is not my SC) is particularly interesting since the emphasis is on hands on curriculum reform and teaching within the medical school.

As you likely discovered, you can receive summer funding for your SC project but you can apply for summer funding separately if you so wish. The trade off of course is that you have less support and fewer people with whom to regularly discuss your project but you also have fewer requirements to comply with (which vary significantly between SC topic areas). The summer funding application is included in the SC app though again, you can apply for summer funding without applying to an SC and vice versa. You are also accepted into both separately as well, so admission into an SC does not guarantee summer funding. Generally, everyone who puts together a well thought out proposal (they give you plenty of opportunities to submit drafts so you can edit before the final deadline) obtains funding which comes out to $3,500 (students doing basic and translational research can apply for a larger stipend of $4,370). The review committee members takes their jobs seriously and your proposal decision comes with a full critique (mine was helpful and more than fair). By accepting funding you commit 8-10 weeks of your summer to your project but by no means are you restricted to your project alone (some of us are teaching this summer and engaging in other pursuits).

Hope this was at least moderately helpful! If there's anything you'd like me to hash out further, just say the word!

 

[JubJub603]

The big differentiator for the preclinical curriculum is the Doctoring course. It's very en vogue right now to have early clinical exposure, but the sad truth is that at most schools it's glorified shadowing. Here, we have a guaranteed 1/2 day every week to hone your skills for the first 2 years, and unlike elsewhere, it is definitely not shadowing. You do procedures and take histories on your own as a first year (I did a lumbar puncture 6 weeks into medical school), then as you get more comfortable with the physical exam second year they begin adding that in and by the end of second year I was expected to come out and present the patient to the attending, interpret tests/imaging, figure out what else I would order, and even come up with a differential diagnosis and rudimentary plan. This is what is expected of third/fourth year students nationally, so learning how to do it as an M2 is HUGE and means when you hit the wards as an M3 you are golden.

Hope that helps

I haven't chimed in here in quite some time (despite a lot of lurking) because of the fantastic job that both Aloepathic and Lorek do in answer your questions -- much better than I could, in most cases. However, I would like to give a differing opinion of the Doctoring course that contrasts somewhat with what Aloepathic said above (included in the quote).

While the Doctoring community mentorship here at Brown does a very good job of providing you with clinical opportunities early on, the role you play at your mentor's office is highly variable depending greatly on the mentor with whom you are matched. While some students may be lucky enough to be granted a high level of independence, as it seems Aloepathic was, others are indeed treated as glorified shadows. The scenario in the quotes would be the best one could hope for --- and while it does happen, I'd hate for someone to think that such an experience is par for the course and then be disappointed when they get here.

As it's relatively new, the Doctoring course has struggles that any new major curriculum addition might have. It's ideals are fantastic; it's implementation, however, can fall short.

This is all mostly minor in the grand scheme of things; I do think that our Doctoring course is on the more "progressive" side of things when comparing against other medical schools. However, it's shortfalls shouldn't be overlooked entirely -- the Doctoring course does demand a significant portion of your time that you will be asked to take away from your other courses, often at times when you least want to (ie: right before a major block exam). When the course is done well, which I'd say it is 50% of the time, it's a pleasure to go through and allows you to learn/grow a lot. However, when it is not, it can be downright frustrating.

I hope this post didn't come off too strong; the Brown curriculum in general is solid and prepares you well. I just remember applying to schools and finding some of the more tempered posts to be the most informative. Brown is a great place to study medicine, but like any school, also has its weak points. I think that any decision that require a 4+ year commitment and hundreds of thousands of dollars should be made on the most complete information possible!

 

[ayushman80]

I haven't chimed in here in quite some time (despite a lot of lurking) because of the fantastic job that both Aloepathic and Lorek do in answer your questions -- much better than I could, in most cases. However, I would like to give a differing opinion of the Doctoring course that contrasts somewhat with what Aloepathic said above (included in the quote).

While the Doctoring community mentorship here at Brown does a very good job of providing you with clinical opportunities early on, the role you play at your mentor's office is highly variable depending greatly on the mentor with whom you are matched. While some students may be lucky enough to be granted a high level of independence, as it seems Aloepathic was, others are indeed treated as glorified shadows. The scenario in the quotes would be the best one could hope for --- and while it does happen, I'd hate for someone to think that such an experience is par for the course and then be disappointed when they get here.

As it's relatively new, the Doctoring course has struggles that any new major curriculum addition might have. It's ideals are fantastic; it's implementation, however, can fall short.

This is all mostly minor in the grand scheme of things; I do think that our Doctoring course is on the more "progressive" side of things when comparing against other medical schools. However, it's shortfalls shouldn't be overlooked entirely -- the Doctoring course does demand a significant portion of your time that you will be asked to take away from your other courses, often at times when you least want to (ie: right before a major block exam). When the course is done well, which I'd say it is 50% of the time, it's a pleasure to go through and allows you to learn/grow a lot. However, when it is not, it can be downright frustrating.

I hope this post didn't come off too strong; the Brown curriculum in general is solid and prepares you well. I just remember applying to schools and finding some of the more tempered posts to be the most informative. Brown is a great place to study medicine, but like any school, also has its weak points. I think that any decision that require a 4+ year commitment and hundreds of thousands of dollars should be made on the most complete information possible!

I would say that my experience has been on par w/ Aleopathic. Here is the thing about the doctoring course...you have to pick your mentor appropriately. The first 3 years of med school are to prepare you for the basics of medicine. If you pick a pediatric hand surgeon as your mentor for the first two years....well...how much are you really going to get to do without having any experience under your belt?!? Picking a mentor in a field like Medicine, Family med, GYN (to some extent), Gastroenterology, Gen Surg, etc... will allow you for a really great Doctoring experience. These types of specialites really allow you to get in with patients and practice your skills. Specialties that may not lend well to Doctoring: Craniofacial Surgery, Hand Surgery, Asethetic Plastics, Neurootology etc.... Not too many pediatric hand surgery patients who need to have their sexual histories taken for practice.... So all in all, the doctoring course is what a student wants to make of it.

As for the SC portion of the curriculum. I personally don't believe that it is as big a deal as most applicants make it out to be. There is already sooooooo much flexibility in the curriculum, as many previous posts have described, that I feel the SC is a nice thing to have but definitely not needed to set our curriculum apart. But It provides you with structure if you need it.

 

[oncosankenobi]

Thanks, JubJub, for your honest, measured opinion. Any new program will inadvertently face growing pains. Variability in experience is to be expected. As long as the doctoring course doesn't interfere too much with coursework, I still think there are incredible benefits to having early and continual exposure to a clinical setting. I hope your feedback on your experience will prompt the institution to select mentors for the doctoring course more carefully in the future.

 

[JubJub603]

I would say that my experience has been on par w/ Aleopathic. Here is the thing about the doctoring course...you have to pick your mentor appropriately. The first 3 years of med school are to prepare you for the basics of medicine. If you pick a pediatric hand surgeon as your mentor for the first two years....well...how much are you really going to get to do without having any experience under your belt?!? Picking a mentor in a field like Medicine, Family med, GYN (to some extent), Gastroenterology, Gen Surg, etc... will allow you for a really great Doctoring experience. These types of specialites really allow you to get in with patients and practice your skills. Specialties that may not lend well to Doctoring: Craniofacial Surgery, Hand Surgery, Asethetic Plastics, Neurootology etc.... Not too many pediatric hand surgery patients who need to have their sexual histories taken for practice.... So all in all, the doctoring course is what a student wants to make of it.

It's very good to hear that there are those who had very positive experiences like yourself, but I have to respectfully disagree with what you're implying, that what you receive out of your Doctoring mentorship is mostly a product of your own choice.

There is a lot of luck involved in the process regardless of any choice you make. Yes, it helps to choose a field where you will be getting more patient experience (as you noted), but going in as a first year, many aren't in a position to really understand what that choice means and make it. Even assuming you get the field you request (some do not), there's a huge amount of luck in getting a pro-active mentor who really cares about teaching you. It sounds like you did, and that's fantastic. They certainly exist. However, based on my experiences in first and second year, and the many peers I've talked with, it seems like most mentors are simply just "okay." You can practice your physical exam and do as you wish with most patients, but they don't actively engage in any meaningful way. Then, there are a few truly bad mentors, which unfortunately seem to persist through the years.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I had an ED doc my first year and IM doc second year, so it's not like I chose some obscure field on which I'm basing my opinions.

Your point is valid that your mentor experience will rely -- to a degree -- on student effort and engagement (what in life doesn't?). But the randomness of the process, and sometimes unnecessary bureaucracy of the Doctoring administration, can make it very difficult if things do not pan out in your favor from the beginning.

 

[deleted127837]

I would say that my experience has been on par w/ Aleopathic. Here is the thing about the doctoring course...you have to pick your mentor appropriately.

You seem to answer this in your post, but just to verify: the student can pick/has a great deal of say in who their Doctoring mentor is?

 

[Iorek Byrnison]

It's very good to hear that there are those who had very positive experiences like yourself, but I have to respectfully disagree with what you're implying, that what you receive out of your Doctoring mentorship is mostly a product of your own choice.

There is a lot of luck involved in the process regardless of any choice you make. Yes, it helps to choose a field where you will be getting more patient experience (as you noted), but going in as a first year, many aren't in a position to really understand what that choice means and make it. Even assuming you get the field you request (some do not), there's a huge amount of luck in getting a pro-active mentor who really cares about teaching you. It sounds like you did, and that's fantastic. They certainly exist. However, based on my experiences in first and second year, and the many peers I've talked with, it seems like most mentors are simply just "okay." You can practice your physical exam and do as you wish with most patients, but they don't actively engage in any meaningful way. Then, there are a few truly bad mentors, which unfortunately seem to persist through the years.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I had an ED doc my first year and IM doc second year, so it's not like I chose some obscure field on which I'm basing my opinions.

Your point is valid that your mentor experience will rely -- to a degree -- on student effort and engagement (what in life doesn't?). But the randomness of the process, and sometimes unnecessary bureaucracy of the Doctoring administration, can make it very difficult if things do not pan out in your favor from the beginning.

Edited this after my initial posting:


Not to take the corny way out but I think everyone is right. I've had really good mentorship experiences both years. First year was completely by luck (pediatric ED is almost always good) and the second year I requested a specific doc who, because of his background, had a reputation for being quite talented at coming up with a pinpoint accurate differential using just the interview and physical exam (which is pretty much what the doctoring course aspires to help you master). Likewise, I've know classmates who were less than thrilled with their pairings. Some people end up with sub-specialists where it's hard to practice the generalized skillset we're being taught, you could end up with doc who's hesitant because he doesn't know what your capabilities are yet, or you could just have a dud. My first year mentor had the benefit of knowing that A) I was an EMT before and B) he had me from the start so he knew exactly what I would have been taught thus far. As a result, he always challenged me to the fullest extent of my capabilities without pushing me too far out of my range. My second year mentor took a bit more time to size me up but once I demonstrated the extent and limitations of my abilities, he ended up being fantastic. I'd say the emphasis for any of the courses and especially doctoring is that they generally improve over time (I've found the 2nd year didactic session have been much smoother compared to first year) but as far as the clinical site mentorship goes, a lot of it is indeed luck.

JubJub, if you disagree with any of this, you are welcome to peg me with a snowball next time we see each other around.


And to answer the above, you get randomly assigned first year, you can ask for a mentor second year (either a specific individual or just a general specialty). The caveat is that for they sake of a diverse experience, if you are in a community based site first year, they want you to have a hospital based mentor second year and vice versa.

 

[deleted127837]

It's very good to hear that there are those who had very positive experiences like yourself, but I have to respectfully disagree with what you're implying, that what you receive out of your Doctoring mentorship is mostly a product of your own choice.

There is a lot of luck involved in the process regardless of any choice you make. Yes, it helps to choose a field where you will be getting more patient experience (as you noted), but going in as a first year, many aren't in a position to really understand what that choice means and make it. Even assuming you get the field you request (some do not), there's a huge amount of luck in getting a pro-active mentor who really cares about teaching you. It sounds like you did, and that's fantastic. They certainly exist. However, based on my experiences in first and second year, and the many peers I've talked with, it seems like most mentors are simply just "okay." You can practice your physical exam and do as you wish with most patients, but they don't actively engage in any meaningful way. Then, there are a few truly bad mentors, which unfortunately seem to persist through the years.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I had an ED doc my first year and IM doc second year, so it's not like I chose some obscure field on which I'm basing my opinions.

Your point is valid that your mentor experience will rely -- to a degree -- on student effort and engagement (what in life doesn't?). But the randomness of the process, and sometimes unnecessary bureaucracy of the Doctoring administration, can make it very difficult if things do not pan out in your favor from the beginning.

Why aren't these problems being fixed?

Edit: Thank you for the response, Iorek.

 

[JubJub603]

Why aren't these problems being fixed?

Edit: Thank you for the response, Iorek.

I'm not entirely sure. I think there is a major problem in with education in general, let alone medical education, where people sing to the tune of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." So long as these mentors are getting decent reviews (which they do, as anyone spending a semester getting to know a person will tend to rate that person positively), and so long as students are passing their OSCEs (which they do, because they are intelligent, driven people), there is little reason to keep pushing for improvement. On their end, without looking too hard into the details, the satisfactory results justify keeping things as they are.

On top of this, you also have to consider that the Doctoring mentors are community physicians who are willingly donating their time; they are not paid and they receive little tangible benefit for taking on a medical student (other than a certificate that acknowledges they are a part of the program). Rhode Island, being the small state that it is, only has so many physicians affiliated with Brown who are willing to do this. I know during my first year they were short a good number of physicians (admittedly in part due to the transition to EMR) and many students had to wait a few weeks to get a mentor. While I don't think there were any immediate shortage issues this year, I know at least a handful of students in my year who were unable to switch mentors after having negative experiences due to the short supply.

This is just my take, but take that for what you will.

 

[deleted127837]

I'm not entirely sure. I think there is a major problem in with education in general, let alone medical education, where people sing to the tune of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." So long as these mentors are getting decent reviews (which they do, as anyone spending a semester getting to know a person will tend to rate that person positively), and so long as students are passing their OSCEs (which they do, because they are intelligent, driven people), there is little reason to keep pushing for improvement. On their end, without looking too hard into the details, the satisfactory results justify keeping things as they are.

On top of this, you also have to consider that the Doctoring mentors are community physicians who are willingly donating their time; they are not paid and they receive little tangible benefit for taking on a medical student (other than a certificate that acknowledges they are a part of the program). Rhode Island, being the small state that it is, only has so many physicians affiliated with Brown who are willing to do this. I know during my first year they were short a good number of physicians (admittedly in part due to the transition to EMR) and many students had to wait a few weeks to get a mentor. While I don't think there were any immediate shortage issues this year, I know at least a handful of students in my year who were unable to switch mentors after having negative experiences due to the short supply.

This is just my take, but take that for what you will.

No, that makes sense. Thank you 🙂

--

I'm curious - how do current students feel about the diversification of programs at AMS?

http://www.browndailyherald.com/2013...class-in-2015/

Do you all feel the main program is stable enough (as it's commonly described as constantly changing) for the administration to be devoting resources toward a whole separate track? There was rhetoric about expanding the program away from 50% PLMEs, but wouldn't this reduce traditional-MD candidate positions even further (though admittedly, PLME students could join it as well)?

Just curious. I think where a school is trying to go will impact me more than where they were last year, for example.

 

[Iorek Byrnison]

I'm curious - how do current students feel about the diversification of programs at AMS?

http://www.browndailyherald.com/2013/02/04/new-med-school-program-to-admit-first-class-in-2015/

Do you all feel the main program is stable enough (as it's commonly described as constantly changing) for the administration to be devoting resources toward a whole separate track? There was rhetoric about expanding the program away from 50% PLMEs, but wouldn't this reduce traditional-MD candidate positions even further?

Just curious. I think where a school is trying to go will impact me more than where they were last year, for example.

My viewpoint is that dynamic does not mean unstable (I would be vastly more frustrated if I thought issues would not be addressed and were fated to reoccur year after year without amelioration) though I can understand why you would be worried about growing pains with any new program coming into the fold.

The primary care program won't have any effect on the number of traditional-MD student spots. I can tell you that a great deal of effort has gone into into identifying and assessing resources for the program so that it will not negatively impact the current MD program.

 

[deleted127837]

It'll definitely be an interesting program to see 🙂 .

I guess overall I'm trying to get a clear sense of where AMS wants to be in 10 and 20 years. As it was one of our secondary questions, it's something on my mind. Sorry for all the questions - I read through the 2010~2012 threads today and realized you all have been answering similar questions each year. Thank you! 🙂

 

[fourhumours]

so I may have missed this in my interview day, or it may not have even been brought up, but how will the newly created School of Public Health relate to AMS? is there going to be a new MD/MPH option or is that still a few years away (if it ever will be an option)?

 

[deleted127837]

so I may have missed this in my interview day, or it may not have even been brought up, but how will the newly created School of Public Health relate to AMS? is there going to be a new MD/MPH option or is that still a few years away (if it ever will be an option)?

So far as I know, there is already an MD/MPH option at Brown, if you want to take the year off (same with MD/MBA, MD/MPP, MD/MHA, etc). Right now public health there is a "Program in Public Health" as opposed to a full school, but you could still get the MPH from it.

As I understand it, a lot of students taking the MD/MPH route do their MPH at Harvard instead of Brown (I don't know about Hopkins/UNC/Columbia/other top programs). I hope one of the current students can shed more light on it 🙂

 

[fourhumours]

So far as I know, there is already an MD/MPH option at Brown, if you want to take the year off (same with MD/MBA, MD/MPP, MD/MHA, etc). Right now public health there is a "Program in Public Health" as opposed to a full school, but you could still get the MPH from it.

As I understand it, a lot of students taking the MD/MPH route do their MPH at Harvard instead of Brown (I don't know about Hopkins/UNC/Columbia/other top programs). I hope one of the current students can shed more light on it 🙂

Yeah i knew about the option to go to other schools, but there was a news release yesterday saying the corporation of brown has officially approved a brand new school of public health

 

[HOCHMAGANDY]

This thread is pretty dead. Is everyone just stunned silent in anticipation of the march 1st decision date?

Fourhumours, I also heard about the new school of public health. Barbara mentioned it during our interview day. It's definitely a step in the right direction for Brown. There is a MD/MPH option right now.

 

[deleted127837]

Yeah i knew about the option to go to other schools, but there was a news release yesterday saying the corporation of brown has officially approved a brand new school of public health

Here's the article that mentions already existing MD-MPH students: http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2013/02/publichealth

Dr. Edward Wing, Brown’s dean of medicine and biological sciences, said the two schools, which share many jointly appointed faculty members and M.D./M.P.H. students, will continue to work closely together. For example, public health is integral to the Alpert Medical School’s newly announced M.D./Sc.M. program in primary care and population health.

This thread is pretty dead. Is everyone just stunned silent in anticipation of the march 1st decision date?

Brown fields such a small number of interviewees (and released results for 75% of those people already) that I guess there aren't that many people left to have conversation about it. I imagine a lot of people on the waitlist get accepted at higher ranked schools off the bat and don't consider AMS that much anymore, and it seems that not that many people on SDN have been accepted.

It's not exactly some of the other Ivy threads, where there's 1000+ interviewees all waiting til March to hear something.

What do you want to talk about? 😛

 

[1stmeds]

What do you want to talk about? 😛

I've got a Q, are there any sort of social functions that occur, either as a way for 1st years to get to know one another and/or that are traditions the classes hold each year? I know about the great works of Low Yield, but are there other fun activities?

 

[deleted127837]

I've got a Q, are there any sort of social functions that occur, either as a way for 1st years to get to know one another and/or that are traditions the classes hold each year? I know about the great works of Low Yield, but are there other fun activities?

Would also love to hear about this from a current student! All I could find was this: http://brown.edu/academics/medical/student-affairs/events-and-traditions

 

[HOCHMAGANDY]

[/QUOTE]
What do you want to talk about? 😛[/QUOTE]

I'm interested in why you Bearstronaut love Brown so much? Don't get me wrong, Brown's a great school and I would have a tough choice to make if accepted. But the bear man is demonstrating a level of enthusiasm and optimism that I have never seen anywhere else on SDN. Are you an RI native? Brown undergrad? haha. Don't answer if it makes you feel uncomfortable.

 

[Iorek Byrnison]

Would also love to hear about this from a current student! All I could find was this: http://brown.edu/academics/medical/student-affairs/events-and-traditions

Okay, going to try to get through a few things here but bare with me if I miss something.

1) Yes, there's an MD/MPH program but you are also correct in stating that in the past, med students have typically gone to other institutions for their MPH. The biggest reason for this was just the comparative youth of the public health program here but now that it's had enough time to get firmly established I imagine more students will be choosing to stick around for the additional degree. Still, there are benefits to obtaining your additional degrees at different institutions (get to network with people outside of your own institutional boundaries, exposure to different perspectives).

2) In terms of traditions, the four that come to mind are Low Yield (variety show), BioMed Ball (this year it happened to fall right after Low Yield by coincidence so it was an exhausting but tres fun night of performing and then dancing) Date a Doc (auction off "dates" that students have come up with. People often pool together to offer things like brewery tours, tickets to cultural events, and professors often offer dinner to groups of people. The event is infused with an incredibly supportive and fun atmosphere and it's all for a good cause since the money all goes to a local charity aimed at combatting childhood asthma), and Second Look (drinks and Hors d'œuvre at the RISD art museum, some low yield and other acts, and then socializing afterwards). .

As fun as all those events are though, the best part of the social scene here is that because of the way our exams are spaced out, people are pretty willing to go out and enjoy themselves, especially near the beginning of a block. There's often something going on each weekend and I've had a blast each of the past two years going sledding, skiing, sailing, camping, hiking, and just enjoying myself and releasing the stress that naturally comes with the territory of med school (probably one of the major reasons why people hear are happy and pretty relaxed).

Alright, I'm sorry to say this but I really must start focusing properly on boards so I likely won't be on SDN for quite some time. My parting advice for everyone is just to take things easy. I know the process is stressful and it can seem like your entire future hinges on a single e-mail or letter but truth be told is that you're going to become the doctor you were meant to be no matter where you end up and the only major limiting factor will be your own perseverance and determination. That said, I wish you all the very best of luck and hope to see many of you at Second Look.

Cheers!

 

[deleted127837]

What do you want to talk about? 😛

I'm interested in why you Bearstronaut love Brown so much? Don't get me wrong, Brown's a great school and I would have a tough choice to make if accepted. But the bear man is demonstrating a level of enthusiasm and optimism that I have never seen anywhere else on SDN. Are you an RI native? Brown undergrad? haha. Don't answer if it makes you feel uncomfortable.

Haha, it's a good question. I'm none of those. I try to be optimistic about everything on SDN in general to combat the rampant cynicism, which probably attributes to a lot of that enthusiasm.

For me personally, I like Brown pretty well. It had by far the best atmosphere of everywhere I visited, which is pretty important to me, and the Match List for me demonstrates going here wouldn't put me at any disadvantage compared to going to the stereotypical "top 10" research schools. I could rant on, but regardless, the application period isn't over yet, so I continue collecting information to make a decision 🙂

 

[deleted127837]

Okay, going to try to get through a few things here but bare with me if I miss something.

1) Yes, there's an MD/MPH program but you are also correct in stating that in the past, med students have typically gone to other institutions for their MPH. The biggest reason for this was just the comparative youth of the public health program here but now that it's had enough time to get firmly established I imagine more students will be choosing to stick around for the additional degree. Still, there are benefits to obtaining your additional degrees at different institutions (get to network with people outside of your own institutional boundaries, exposure to different perspectives).

2) In terms of traditions, the four that come to mind are Low Yield (variety show), BioMed Ball (this year it happened to fall right after Low Yield by coincidence so it was an exhausting but tres fun night of performing and then dancing) Date a Doc (auction off "dates" that students have come up with. People often pool together to offer things like brewery tours, tickets to cultural events, and professors often offer dinner to groups of people. The event is infused with an incredibly supportive and fun atmosphere and it's all for a good cause since the money all goes to a local charity aimed at combatting childhood asthma), and Second Look (drinks and Hors d'œuvre at the RISD art museum, some low yield and other acts, and then socializing afterwards). .

As fun as all those events are though, the best part of the social scene here is that because of the way our exams are spaced out, people are pretty willing to go out and enjoy themselves, especially near the beginning of a block. There's often something going on each weekend and I've had a blast each of the past two years going sledding, skiing, sailing, camping, hiking, and just enjoying myself and releasing the stress that naturally comes with the territory of med school (probably one of the major reasons why people hear are happy and pretty relaxed).

Alright, I'm sorry to say this but I really must start focusing properly on boards so I likely won't be on SDN for quite some time. My parting advice for everyone is just to take things easy. I know the process is stressful and it can seem like your entire future hinges on a single e-mail or letter but truth be told is that you're going to become the doctor you were meant to be no matter where you end up and the only major limiting factor will be your own perseverance and determination. That said, I wish you all the very best of luck and hope to see many of you at Second Look.

Cheers!

Thank you! Great information.

Good luck on the boards! 🙂👍

 

[1stmeds]

As fun as all those events are though, the best part of the social scene here is that because of the way our exams are spaced out, people are pretty willing to go out and enjoy themselves, especially near the beginning of a block. There's often something going on each weekend and I've had a blast each of the past two years going sledding, skiing, sailing, camping, hiking, and just enjoying myself and releasing the stress that naturally comes with the territory of med school (probably one of the major reasons why people hear are happy and pretty relaxed).

Alright, I'm sorry to say this but I really must start focusing properly on boards so I likely won't be on SDN for quite some time. My parting advice for everyone is just to take things easy. I know the process is stressful and it can seem like your entire future hinges on a single e-mail or letter but truth be told is that you're going to become the doctor you were meant to be no matter where you end up and the only major limiting factor will be your own perseverance and determination. That said, I wish you all the very best of luck and hope to see many of you at Second Look.

Cheers!

cool, thanks. Good luck