2021-2022 Georgetown

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edgydoc said:
Seeing amazing applicants getting Rs makes me wonder what qualifies someone to receive an II to GT 🤔
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I don't think that's the right way to look at it. GT is clearly as holistic as the next guy, and I would not allow myself to be intimidated by the caliber of people being rejected. It is clear to me, from seeing some of the folks' signatures as well as seeing their success on other school-specific threads, that GT is engaging in some serious resource protection with some of them. This means you cannot measure yourself against them in determining your odds of success here.
 
Since it's a common misunderstanding (and in case this ever helps you in any kind of correspondence with them), Georgetown University uses the abbreviation GU. A lot of people think it's GT, but that is the abbreviation for Georgia Tech. Georgetown University School of Medicine is, accordingly, GUSOM.

Hoya Saxa and good luck to everyone.
 
KnightDoc said:
I don't think that's the right way to look at it. GT is clearly as holistic as the next guy, and I would not allow myself to be intimidated by the caliber of people being rejected. It is clear to me, from seeing some of the folks' signatures as well as seeing their success on other school-specific threads, that GT is engaging in some serious resource protection with some of them. This means you cannot measure yourself against them in determining your odds of success here.
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I don't think it has anything to do with resource protection- it seems like Georgetown just has a very specific mission fit and prioritizes applicants who will mesh well with their Jesuit philosophy over those with high numbers. If someone has high numbers and is a great mission fit then that's a double bonus, but I don't think resource protection is the issue.
 
sasukeuchiha33 said:
I don't think it has anything to do with resource protection- it seems like Georgetown just has a very specific mission fit and prioritizes applicants who will mesh well with their Jesuit philosophy over those with high numbers. If someone has high numbers and is a great mission fit then that's a double bonus, but I don't think resource protection is the issue.
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Excellent points, and I'm sure that's an element of it, but where are all the people with high numbers (3.9+/520+) and IIs? Do so few super high stat applicants have the service and story they are looking for?

All schools outside the T20 (and, from posts in previous cycles, even some within it!) engage in resource protection to one degree or another. I assure you GUSOM is not an exception to this rule, mission fit or no mission fit. I only know from seeing some of the people who received Rs this past week and are receiving IIs at many of the very top schools in the country, that mission fit was not their problem here.
 
KnightDoc said:
Excellent points, and I'm sure that's an element of it, but where are all the people with high numbers (3.9+/520+) and IIs? Do so few super high stat applicants have the service and story they are looking for?

All schools outside the T20 (and, from posts in previous cycles, even some within it!) engage in resource protection to one degree or another. I assure you GUSOM is not an exception to this rule, mission fit or no mission fit. I only know from seeing some of the people who received Rs this past week and are receiving IIs at many of the very top schools in the country, that mission fit was not their problem here.
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Hmmm... I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on this. There are several people with high numbers who have been getting IIs here as evidenced by the II tracker. I went on there just now and am seeing several people with 520+ scores who reported receiving IIs. I'm not doubting that resource protection is a thing, I'm sure it is, but what honestly seems more likely to you- that Georgetown decided to just enact a ridiculous level of resource protection that discriminates against high stat applicants, or that not as many high stat applicants fit their very unique Jesuit-based mission/values (or at least did not write about how they fit their mission effectively)? Idk about you, but to me the latter seems way more plausible.

At the end of the day, both of us are measly premeds haha, so speculating about this probably does more harm than good, and there's no need to overthink it so much. Whoever gets a II gets a II and there's nothing any of us can do about it. If people really think that Gtown is engaging in such a ridiculous level of resource protection and that turns them off to the school, then that's their prerogative. Gtown isn't exactly hurting for applicants. As someone with lower-ish stats but a real passion for social justice and advocacy, I actually kind of like to hear that Gtown is prioritizing mission fit over high stats. Gtown seems like one of those schools where cookie-cutter diversity/community service essays is not good enough to interest them. They really want you to have a passion and to be able to articulate that passion well through you writing. I'm not insinuating that the people you've seen on here didn't have that passion, but maybe that other people's passion for social justice and advocacy stood out more despite having lower stats.
 
sasukeuchiha33 said:
Hmmm... I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on this. There are several people with high numbers who have been getting IIs here as evidenced by the II tracker. I went on there just now and am seeing several people with 520+ scores who reported receiving IIs. I'm not doubting that resource protection is a thing, I'm sure it is, but what honestly seems more likely to you- that Georgetown decided to just enact a ridiculous level of resource protection that discriminates against high stat applicants, or that not as many high stat applicants fit their very unique Jesuit-based mission/values (or at least did not write about how they fit their mission effectively)? Idk about you, but to me the latter seems way more plausible.

At the end of the day, both of us are measly premeds haha, so speculating about this probably does more harm than good, and there's no need to overthink it so much. Whoever gets a II gets a II and there's nothing any of us can do about it. If people really think that Gtown is engaging in such a ridiculous level of resource protection and that turns them off to the school, then that's their prerogative. Gtown isn't exactly hurting for applicants. As someone with lower-ish stats but a real passion for social justice and advocacy, I actually kind of like to hear that Gtown is prioritizing mission fit over high stats. Gtown seems like one of those schools where cookie-cutter diversity/community service essays is not good enough to interest them. They really want you to have a passion and to be able to articulate that passion well through you writing. I'm not insinuating that the people you've seen on here didn't have that passion, but maybe that other people's passion for social justice and advocacy stood out more despite having lower stats.
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I actually agree with most of what you are saying. For the record, I do not consider resource protection "discrimination" against anyone, and I think my initial post on the topic may have been misconstrued.


@edgydoc's comment was basically that, with so many amazing people receiving Rs, what does it take to avoid that? And my response was merely meant to convey that no one should be intimidated by the quality of the applicants receiving Rs, because resource protection is a thing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, GUSOM is a great school, with a very specific mission. It's in a great location, and it attracts a ton of applicants. That said its median MCAT is 513. Do higher stat candidates really suck that much, when measured against their mission, as compared to lower stat applicants? Or, are they being screened out because, at the end of the day, GUSOM just knows it won't be their first choice, or second choice, or third choice, etc., so it is choosing not to waste precious, limited II slots on people it knows won't be coming?

On that point, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, if you can't believe that even excellent mission fits sometimes find themselves resource protected out at mid-tier, low yield schools! 🙂
 
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KnightDoc said:
I actually agree with most of what you are saying. For the record, I do not consider resource protection "discrimination" against anyone, and I think my initial post on the topic may have been misconstrued.

@edgydoc's comment was basically that, with so many amazing people receiving Rs, what does it take to avoid that? And my response was merely meant to convey that no one should be intimidated by the quality of the applicants receiving Rs, because resource protection is a thing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, GUSOM is a great school, with a very specific mission. It's in a great location, and it attracts a ton of applicants. That said, it's median MCAT is 513. Do higher stat candidates really suck that much, when measured against their mission, as compared to lower stat applicants? Or, are they being screened out because, at the end of the day, GUSOM just knows it won't be their first choice, or second choice, or third choice, etc., so it is choosing not to waste precious, limited II slots on people it knows won't be coming?

On that point, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, if you can't believe that even excellent mission fits sometimes find themselves resource protected out at mid-tier, low yield schools! 🙂
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What you're saying isn't making any sense at all. What school in their right mind would resource protect against an applicant with great stats AND a fantastic mission fit (barring poor writing ability)? Correlation does not equal causation. If an applicant has a great mission fit and great stats I can't bring myself to believe (nor should anyone) that a school like Georgetown would reject these kinds of applicants pre-II on the basis of resource protection.

I can see how this could be relevant if a super high stat applicant was NOT a great mission fit and spent their entire secondary talking about the research they would be able to do- in that instance resource protection would make sense. After all, why would GTown invest resources in an applicant so interested in research if they're focused on social justice, regardless of how high their stats are?

However, there's no way they resource protect against applicants who have great numbers AND are a great mission fit, that makes NO sense whatsoever so I'm not sure why you're suggesting that. Would love adcoms to weigh in on this @Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn @gonnif
 
sasukeuchiha33 said:
What you're saying isn't making any sense at all. What school in their right mind would resource protect against an applicant with great stats AND a fantastic mission fit (barring poor writing ability)? Correlation does not equal causation. If an applicant has a great mission fit and great stats I can't bring myself to believe (nor should anyone) that a school like Georgetown would reject these kinds of applicants pre-II on the basis of resource protection.

I can see how this could be relevant if a super high stat applicant was NOT a great mission fit and spent their entire secondary talking about the research they would be able to do- in that instance resource protection would make sense. After all, why would GTown invest resources in an applicant so interested in research if they're focused on social justice, regardless of how high their stats are?

However, there's no way they resource protect against applicants who have great numbers AND are a great mission fit, that makes NO sense whatsoever so I'm not sure why you're suggesting that. Would love adcoms to weigh in on this @Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn @gonnif
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Resource protecting means don’t use your finite resources on an applicant that is unlikely to choose your school if offered admission. If IIs were unlimited, then that’s a different story. They are not.

Georgetown undergrad is a little quirky with who gets in. It’s a mystery to many, and definitely has to do with mission. I don’t necessarily believe GUSOM resource-protects, but I also definitely can’t say with certainty that they don’t. I wouldn’t fault them for it either…because resources are limited and they can spend them as they see fit.

Edited to say: I think the truth probably lands somewhere in between. Take your shot on some high-flying candidates that have the right mission, and pass on others even if you think they would have been a great fit.
 
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sasukeuchiha33 said:
What you're saying isn't making any sense at all. What school in their right mind would resource protect against an applicant with great stats AND a fantastic mission fit (barring poor writing ability)? Correlation does not equal causation. If an applicant has a great mission fit and great stats I can't bring myself to believe (nor should anyone) that a school like Georgetown would reject these kinds of applicants pre-II on the basis of resource protection.

I can see how this could be relevant if a super high stat applicant was NOT a great mission fit and spent their entire secondary talking about the research they would be able to do- in that instance resource protection would make sense. After all, why would GTown invest resources in an applicant so interested in research if they're focused on social justice, regardless of how high their stats are?

However, there's no way they resource protect against applicants who have great numbers AND are a great mission fit, that makes NO sense whatsoever so I'm not sure why you're suggesting that. Would love adcoms to weigh in on this @Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn @gonnif
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Schools that don't want to waste a slot on someone they know from prior experience is highly unlikely to accept an offer of admission. It happens every year, at schools all over the country. The greatest mission fit in the world is highly unlikely to attend Georgetown if they have the opportunity to attend Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, UCLA, NYU, Hopkins, Columbia, Penn, etc., etc., etc. You'll see -- the adcoms you tagged are going to confirm what I've been saying! 🙂
 
Heavens, I knew about their commitment to Cura Personalis and helping others, but didn’t realize they were social justice centered. No wonder I didn’t get in- didn’t mention that anywhere in my application
 
sasukeuchiha33 said:
What you're saying isn't making any sense at all. What school in their right mind would resource protect against an applicant with great stats AND a fantastic mission fit (barring poor writing ability)? Correlation does not equal causation. If an applicant has a great mission fit and great stats I can't bring myself to believe (nor should anyone) that a school like Georgetown would reject these kinds of applicants pre-II on the basis of resource protection.

I can see how this could be relevant if a super high stat applicant was NOT a great mission fit and spent their entire secondary talking about the research they would be able to do- in that instance resource protection would make sense. After all, why would GTown invest resources in an applicant so interested in research if they're focused on social justice, regardless of how high their stats are?

However, there's no way they resource protect against applicants who have great numbers AND are a great mission fit, that makes NO sense whatsoever so I'm not sure why you're suggesting that. Would love adcoms to weigh in on this @Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn @gonnif
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The Adcoms at Gtown and med schools know from historic norms that the great stats + mission people you're referring to go elsewhere. OR, they have to interview some 500 candidates like that in order to get them to matriculate, vs say, 1/50 of those with stats around their medians. Look at Gtown's 90th %iles. That means other people do indeed go elsewhere.
 
Goro said:
The Adcoms at Gtown and med schools know from historic norms that the great stats + mission people you're referring to go elsewhere. OR, they have to interview some 500 candidates like that in order to get them to matriculate, vs say, 1/50 of those with stats around their medians. Look at Gtown's 90th %iles. That means other people do indeed go elsewhere.
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So if your scores are too high then you get yield protected out of an interview but if your scores are too low then you don't get an interview because you can't compete? Like Gtown says on their website that you can't have less than 125 in each subsection so they clearly do care about MCAT scores. So people shouldn't bother applying if they have a 500 but also not bother if they have a 520? I guess it goes back to my earlier question about this whole thing not making any logical sense.

If you're a Gtown adcom evaluating an applicant who has a 521 MCAT, 3.95 GPA, great ECs, fantastic essays, great clinical experience, great volunteering experience, etc. and can articulate it in such a way that really resonates with Gtown's mission, would you seriously not offer this person an interview on the basis of resource protection? Would you look at another applicant who has the exact same attributes and qualities, but with a 513, and say "Oh let's interview the guy/gal with a 513 but not the guy/gal with a 521 cuz the guy/gal with a 521 will probably go elsewhere"? So all other things being completely equal, Gtown chooses low scores over high scores?

Maybe this is just me (someone tell me if I'm crazy please) but that does not sound right AT ALL.
 
sasukeuchiha33 said:
So if your scores are too high then you get yield protected out of an interview but if your scores are too low then you don't get an interview because you can't compete? Like Gtown says on their website that you can't have less than 125 in each subsection so they clearly do care about MCAT scores. So people shouldn't bother applying if they have a 500 but also not bother if they have a 520? I guess it goes back to my earlier question about this whole thing not making any logical sense.

If you're a Gtown adcom evaluating an applicant who has a 521 MCAT, 3.95 GPA, great ECs, fantastic essays, great clinical experience, great volunteering experience, etc. and can articulate it in such a way that really resonates with Gtown's mission, would you seriously not offer this person an interview on the basis of resource protection? Would you look at another applicant who has the exact same attributes and qualities, but with a 513, and say "Oh let's interview the guy/gal with a 513 but not the guy/gal with a 521 cuz the guy/gal with a 521 will probably go elsewhere"? So all other things being completely equal, Gtown chooses low scores over high scores?

Maybe this is just me (someone tell me if I'm crazy please) but that does not sound right AT ALL.
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Literally everybody tries to articulate why xxxxxxx school is a good fit in secondaries. Yield protection was a confusing concept to me at first as well, but it makes perfect sense if you think about it in terms of limited resources.

Schools have egos too. They like people who are likely to like them back.
 
sasukeuchiha33 said:
So if your scores are too high then you get yield protected out of an interview but if your scores are too low then you don't get an interview because you can't compete? Like Gtown says on their website that you can't have less than 125 in each subsection so they clearly do care about MCAT scores. So people shouldn't bother applying if they have a 500 but also not bother if they have a 520? I guess it goes back to my earlier question about this whole thing not making any logical sense.

If you're a Gtown adcom evaluating an applicant who has a 521 MCAT, 3.95 GPA, great ECs, fantastic essays, great clinical experience, great volunteering experience, etc. and can articulate it in such a way that really resonates with Gtown's mission, would you seriously not offer this person an interview on the basis of resource protection? Would you look at another applicant who has the exact same attributes and qualities, but with a 513, and say "Oh let's interview the guy/gal with a 513 but not the guy/gal with a 521 cuz the guy/gal with a 521 will probably go elsewhere"? So all other things being completely equal, Gtown chooses low scores over high scores?

Maybe this is just me (someone tell me if I'm crazy please) but that does not sound right AT ALL.
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Yes. This happens all the time in selective undergrad and it happens (maybe more so) in medical admissions. The schools aren’t flying blind. They have plenty of historical matriculation data to help them ascertain who is and who is not likely to accept an offer of admission. With over 13k applicants, best to target the ones that not only fit their mission, but will end up seated in their classrooms.
 
dmblah said:
Anybody know the reason why GUSOM and GWSOM get over 14,000 apps a year? Does DC just appeal to everyone? 😂
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G'town is a "safety" for some and a reach for others. It is in a desirable location with a good airport and somewhat decent weather. That drives a lot of applications its way.
 
dmblah said:
Anybody know the reason why GUSOM and GWSOM get over 14,000 apps a year? Does DC just appeal to everyone? 😂
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Yes. That, and the fact that it has great name recognition, a reasonably decent USNWR ranking, AND the fact that its stats make it appear to be attainable to a wide cross section of applicants. Then, the reality sets in that you are competing with 14,000 people for a limited number of II slots.
 
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KnightDoc said:
Yes. That, and the fact that it has great name recognition, a reasonably decent USNWR ranking, AND the fact that it's stats make it appear to be attainable for a wide cross section of applicants. Then, the reality sets in that you are competing with 14,000 people for a limited number of II slots.
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I think the same logic probably applies to brown, tufts, geisel etc.. Undergrad rankings don’t necessarily correlate to med school rankings. These schools offer blue chip brands that are attainable. Obviously PDs and such know the difference but the general public does not.

It also goes the reverse way for schools like Pitt, BU, Rochester. Med school ranking is more highly regarded than UG. But I highly doubt most of the public is aware of the difference. Thus it is arguable that at Dr. from Brown is seen as going to a better school by the public than one who goes to Pitt or BU.
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
Literally everybody tries to articulate why xxxxxxx school is a good fit in secondaries. Yield protection was a confusing concept to me at first as well, but it makes perfect sense if you think about it in terms of limited resources.

Schools have egos too. They like people who are likely to like them back.
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Yeah, except, with the schools, it really is nothing personal, just business. Like UG, those who are not obsessed with yield would surely love to take their shot if they could.

The interview is the limiting step, however, because it is time and resource intensive. As a result, they just can't waste slots on people who won't come. Doing so would just risk leaving them with open seats and an exhausted WL next May-June.

I'm sure they've run the numbers and determined that even if they staffed up and interviewed 3x as many people, they still wouldn't land these people in the numbers necessary to meaningfully impact their stats, assuming they even care about moving their stats. Again, all schools do this to a greater or lesser degree, outside the T10 or so.
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
I think the same logic probably applies to brown, tufts, geisel etc.. Undergrad rankings don’t necessarily correlate to med school rankings. These schools offer blue chip brands that are attainable. Obviously PDs and such know the difference but the general public does not.

It also goes the reverse way for schools like Pitt, BU, Rochester. Med school ranking is higher than UG ranking. But I highly doubt that most of the public is aware of the difference. Thus it is arguable that at Dr. from Brown is seen as going to a better school by the public than one who goes to Pitt or BU.
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1,000,000%. It's done at all schools below the very top. But, it's got nothing to do with UG, or what most of the public knows. Med schools, and med school admissions, are their own ecosystem. Most of us take the time to learn what we are getting into by the time we apply.

Have you checked out the WARS system? It was my bible after I stumbled upon it, and it's what I used to formulate my first school list.

That system breaks all schools down by category, and has a category defined as low yield. If you were unaware, Brown and Tufts are considered low yield, as is Georgetown. Dartmouth is not.

As I said, all schools resource protect. Low yield just means that the school is disproportionately popular, in relation to its tier. As a result, everyone with a WARS score above a threshold is advised to not bother with them, because resource protection combined with the insane number of people competing for spots at these schools makes an application for anyone a "low yield" proposition, and people with higher scores under the system are advised to devote their time and attention elsewhere.

It's not perfect, since there are always some high stat people who break through at low yield schools, but that's the general idea. It all relates back to resource protection. If it didn't exist, top candidates would be scooping up As everywhere, and lower tier schools would have half filled classes.
 
sasukeuchiha33 said:
Maybe this is just me (someone tell me if I'm crazy please) but that does not sound right AT ALL.
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If you have 1000 interview slots (for a class of 100) and you know from experience that you would use 100 interview slots to matriculate 1 student with these stats and accomplishments, you would run out of interview slots to get a class of 10. This is not an effective use of resources.

If, on the other hand, you have inside information that a particular student with these stats would attend your school (without regard to their other acceptances), you would interview them. This is an entirely different situation. This is the same for all schools, not just GT.

May I suggest, now that we have addressed this issue (which is not specific to this school) that any interested parties take up the battle in the pre-med forum and leave this to the folks who want to discuss GT?
 
gyngyn said:
If you have 1000 interview slots (for a class of 100) and you know from experience that you would use 100 interview slots to matriculate 1 student with these stats and accomplishments, you would run out of interview slots to get a class of 10. This is not an effective use of resources.

If, on the other hand, you have inside information that a particular student with these stats would attend your school (without regard to their other acceptances), you would interview them. This is an entirely different situation. This is the same for all schools, not just GT.

May I suggest, now that we have addressed this issue (which is not specific to this school) that any interested parties take up the battle in the pre-med forum and leave this to the folks who want to discuss GT?
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Thanks for all the explanations- didn't mean to waste space on this thread discussing the specifics of yield protection. I really appreciate everyone's explanations, but like many other things in the application cycle, this is one of those things that just doesn't make sense to me and probably never will.

Good luck to everyone applying here and congrats on all the recent IIs!
 
gonnif said:
No, GT and GWU get a huge amount of application because there is no instate preference as there is no state. Even private schools in a state have instate bias.
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Why wouldn’t they just favor applicants from DC, Maryland, northern VA etc. I mean what’s the difference if there is a state or not. Just curious
 
gonnif said:
No, GT and GWU get a huge amount of application because there is no instate preference as there is no state. Even private schools in a state have instate bias.
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I am aware of IS preferences, everywhere, but that is not really the story here. Please explain Drexel, Jefferson, Temple, Tulane, Tufts, NYMC, Loyola, Rush or Rosy Franklin, private schools in desirable locations that happen to be in actual states, with reasonable stats that, like Georgetown, attract a ton of applications and are considered low yield. What, they're different because 12,000 or 13,000 isn't 14,000? 😎
 
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voxveritatisetlucis said:
Why wouldn’t they just favor applicants from DC, Maryland, northern VA etc. I mean what’s the difference if there is a state or not. Just curious
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You're right and they would. I'm guessing the difference is that would not be reported out, so applicants would have no way to see it and then be discouraged. And, by the way, the DC number is considered IS and is reported, but it's so small that it's immaterial to the 14,000.

I still think he is wrong because, as I noted in my post above, there are also a handful of low yield schools that attract a ton of applications, some approaching the number at GT and GW, that are in actual states, with IS preferences. So, that's not the driver. The driver is the fact that they are decent schools, in desirable locations, with attainable median stats.
 
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gyngyn said:
Last chance to take it to pre-med.
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FWIW, the last few posts related to @gonnif's post, which was specific to GT and GW. If you don't think they belong here, is there a way to remove them and create a new thread, since you can't just shut this one down? I don't want to derail a school-specific thread, but I do think there will be value in @gonnif's response, especially for applicants to GT and GW.
 
KnightDoc said:
FWIW, the last few posts related to @gonnif's post, which was specific to GT and GW. If you don't think they belong here, is there a way to remove them and create a new thread, since you can't just shut this one down? I don't want to derail a school-specific thread, but I do think there will be value in @gonnif's response, especially for applicants to GT and GW.
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You guys do that if you must. I also like to keep each school-specific thread to the topic of that school, and not compare one school on another's thread.
 
wysdoc said:
You guys do that if you must. I also like to keep each school-specific thread to the topic of that school, and not compare one school on another's thread.
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I understand and don't disagree. I'm asking you, as an admin, if there is way for you to remove the posts in question and to create a new thread with them? Otherwise, the new thread will be disjointed, and possibly empty. Plus, the conversation is probably 95% complete, pending @gonnif's response to the last posts from @voxveritatisetlucis and me.
 
KnightDoc said:
I understand and don't disagree. I'm asking you, as an admin, if there is way for you to remove the posts in question and to create a new thread with them? Otherwise, the new thread will be disjointed, and possibly empty. Plus, the conversation is probably 95% complete, pending @gonnif's response to the last posts from @voxveritatisetlucis and me.
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You seem to have enough time to do this, eh
 
wysdoc said:
You seem to have enough time to do this, eh
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Sure, but, do I have the ability? I can copy, paste and remove my own posts, but then I'd just be talking to myself even more than I already do! 🙂

I'm happy to just stop posting on this thread, since I certainly do not want to run afoul of the rules, or to annoy you as a mod, but the conversation will be left dangling if @gonnif cannot come back and close it out.
 
HAPPY MONDAY! The GU rejection massacre continues 🙂 my first R, complete 7/22ish.
interesting discussion about yield protection above. Just want to throw out my n=1 that I got iis from 3 of the biggest social justice schools (and used almost the same secondaries at 1) soo i don’t think mission fit was a problem here. LizzyM of like 75ish
 
8/2 and no II yet, does this mean i will get an R bc mid-august people are getting II so they moved past me? 🙁
 
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