Let’s not, because I have no interest in again spending 48 hours trying to defend myself while no one listens because they’ve already made up their minds about me because I had the audacity to not magically know exactly who else is village. Especially not after just rereading from Bioshock.
From my mod PM at EOD:
Obnoxious that Z fell on his no-self-prez sword with the goal of avoiding having an unproductive cycle of everyone tunneling on a villager and now that’s exactly what’s happening
Liked this post at 10:49pm, so she had already seen my earlier one by that time. So had at least 25 minutes to work on that response that she posted at 11:14. Dang. Was hoping it would be a quicker turnaround so I could be more sure those quotes weren't faked.
I know. Thats why I was trying to see how quickly it was posted. If it had been a few minutes then I would have believed them, and it would have been pretty good evidence that vis is village. As it is, could go either way. I posted all that to signify that I'm throwing them out of my vis analysis since they could have been faked.
Can someone (probably Dubz) explain why Vis posting the messages from her mod PM are so important? Maybe I’m just not understanding the significance. All it does is show Vis was possibly venting about being misyeeted. She could’ve sent those messages in wolf chat or in a role PM. It doesn’t say anything about her affiliation because she could’ve faked them or they could be legit. Just not sure why people are focusing on it so much and wondering if it’s fake or not.
Did you end up doing this? I’m having a hard time reading chaos because his actions seem pro-village (especially getting us to name the discards) but his general tone and tunneling on Cubs prevent me from thinking he’s 100% definitely village.
Have I mentioned that multiball games in particular kind of suck for me because I rely a lot on vote progression and interaction analysis and individual ISOs do almost nothing for me?
This was when sunny and Zenge had that philosophical disagreement about whether scum would discard powerful abilities to try and get village cred. I still don't think it's as viable of a strategy as keeping a role like ninja or strongman and using it to end the game faster, but I don't feel like it's wolfy to argue sunny's side of it. And sunny sussing Zenge on D1 is NAI for both of them.
Reading back through, this feels a little weird because I feel like Zenge's approach of "scum keeps the powerful role, scum ends the game faster" is simpler than "discard the powerful role and try to get village cred for it," and when he's had convoluted ideas in the past, he's gotten really sussed for it, regardless of his affiliation. This almost feels like she's trying to shade him for NOT having a crazy complex idea.
@sunshinefl, it's hard for me to tell reading the quote, is the "this" you were referring to your thought about discarding strong roles for village cred, or is it referring to Zenge's thought?
To borrow a line from Cray, sunny's tone seems different from previous games I've played with her, but I noticed a tonal shift in RvB and I suspect it's more because she's super busy and not as invested in the game as a result.
Then she yeets Zenge, which, based on interactions to this point is just based on the previous philosophical talk.
Here's the first feels list.
And then this comes out of nowhere. Now, she did have Vis listed as "concerned" in her reads list, but there's no mention of why. I have to admit it gives me a bit of pause when someone comes into the game, doesn't put in as much effort as I'm used to seeing from them (I know sunny is busy and that is at least part of it, I'm not discounting that), and then puts their vote on 2 people who are historically easy misyeets (Zenge D1, Vis D2) with minimal reasoning given and few interactions to help give context. She does give some reasoning on Vis after I ask (below).
But I'm not sure I fully follow it because this doesn't seem like a fully accurate representation of Vissy's posts to this point. The jumping on Stagg comment feels a little off (although I do think Vissy voting him right out of the gate because she thought he'd be more likely to pick scum felt strange at the time, but it turned out to be right AND wasn't what started the wagon on him anyway. Vis wasn't even on his vote at EOD.). Vissy has made some joke posts here and there, but they haven't been the majority of her content, and the bolded is really oversimplifying the disagreement that she and Chaos were having.
She says this in response to Coop saying she didn't understand the Zenge side-eye, and I think it's kinda weird. When you go back to the post she's talking about, it's the philosophical discussion that I quoted earlier in this post, and she never actually verbalizes that this is her apparent issue with Zenge's take on it. It seemed like her disagreement with him was on him not coming up with some complex, crazy idea. I don't think it's impossible that this is actually how she was feeling, but it seems odd that she never actually said that this was her issue with it.
Yet now Zenge is included in "mostly neutral to village read" since she's replying to Dubz here, with no explanation of why that read has changed. This is right around the time that Zenge replied to Coop thinking she was me, if anyone wants context of what point of squabbling this was. Edited to correct this because she's talking about herself here. As noted in a post I made later today, this doesn't really fit with sunny's play in other games when she gets scum-leaned, especially by one of her scum-leans, but not using reactivity to determine wolfiness.
I remember thinking this was a little strange since it was pretty obvious what was going on, but it didn't ping me. Just seemed weird.
I really think that my voting for Dubz had little to nothing to do with her increased activity, but I also knew that Dubz was IRL driving and stuff on Friday.
Now Zenge is apparently back in sunny's scum leans since this was replying to me saying that if he wasn't scum, I had no idea what he was doing this game.
This feels like sunny knew he was going to flip village and was setting up to sus me for going after him. I wasn't overreacting, and there are plenty of examples of me being sassy at people who I thought were wolfing and caught. I will say that I was nitpicking at everything that felt hedgy or off, but do keep in mind that when Zenge is scum, I tend to die VERY early (N2 in one case, and N0(!!) in the other. I was very excited thinking I might have caught him before he could off me.
Plus he and I were laughing so much IRL sitting across from each other on the couch lightning posting at each other... it was fun and fed the energy.
The first sentence still feels weird. Asking if it's subtle shade for calling her previous feels list a feels list? I don't feel like I can call these reads lists when she's not classifying people as town or not town (other than herself). Also noting that Zenge is now "sus," which I assume is the worst thing on here, but she kept her vote on Vissy, who was listed as "concerned." So in the time between her last feels list and this one, Zenge went from "concerned" to "sus," while she was stating that she was feeling slightly BETTER about him because of how he and I were interacting, and Vissy stayed at "concerned" the whole time, but her vote is on Vissy.
That doesn't feel great. Particularly the part I bolded.
And then there's this which is like ... everyone is basically in neutral except Zenge who is sus, but who she's not voting for, and is also feeling better about, but moved him to being sus? Pleasy then questioned her on this, and we see a really interesting turnaround with her ranked list:
So NOW, Zenge has changed to concerned, and Vissy has moved down to sus.
I'm really glad that I'm doing this ISO because of what I noted above in bold.
Dina and Dubz immediately asked her about this and she replied with a quote wall, which I'm going to link because quotes within quotes don't show up correctly. But I'm also going to quote part of it.
Suddenly "a lot of us" are seeing Zenge as not scummy, which I don't feel accurately reflected the game state.
This feels a little off and maybe slightly pockety.
As mentioned above, this is not reflected in her feels lists when you look at timing. And the bottom-most post feels a little like backpedaling when I called her out on the timing issue.
This is true.
Hmmm. Can't say I came out of that feeling great about sunny. I'd like to hear others' thoughts though.
Remember that maj is at 5 votes today.
i mean it wasnt out of nowhere for anyone else. that kinda discounts everything that happened when you werent here lol
im not understanding how visc is your top village read then lol
this is an interesting point. like kinda defending herself in what she can anticipate being called out for instead of addressing the real reasons. that doesn't look great
Pleasy read my mind when it came to these comments. I was wondering the exact same thing about Chaos’ position on Vis and why she’s his top village read. Chaos, did you elaborate on this at all?
Can someone (probably Dubz) explain why Vis posting the messages from her mod PM are so important? Maybe I’m just not understanding the significance. All it does is show Vis was possibly venting about being misyeeted. She could’ve sent those messages in wolf chat or in a role PM. It doesn’t say anything about her affiliation because she could’ve faked them or they could be legit. Just not sure why people are focusing on it so much and wondering if it’s fake or not.
I answered coop about this before, but if you read the messages they are framed in a way that only makes sense if she and z are v/v. From memory but I believe she mentioned taking after AM, and tunneling each other. That wouldn't make sense for scum to say about a villager.
Alright, I'm starting with ISOing cubs because I have a few I want to do today and he has the most posts so I wanted to have maximum energy available. Also because Dina was sussing him and she died, so that's a starting point.
Btw, those who have an issue with the ISO lengths - I didn't used to include tl;drs with them and I do now for people who don't like reading wall posts, so if you still want to whine about how they're too long and you don't want to read them or whatever, bite me. They take a long time for me to put together, and if you don't want to read them, fine, but you don't need to bitch about it on thread when I provide a summary for you anyway.
tl;dr:
-Dubz, I mention you with a question but it's at the bottom, so scroll all the way down for that.
-There are a lot of moments of, IMO, kind of odd or over-the-top defensiveness to comments - and weirdly, they're usually comments that aren't really sussing him that much? This was the kind of stuff that I wanted to village-lean him for just based on tone before, but since people who have played with him before discouraged that, I'm keeping that in mind. And actually, looking back at them and really looking at the context they were said in makes me less inclined to give them villagey vibes.
-There's some buddying with sunny that started yesterday and seems like it's continuing today.
-Lots of moments that feel like throwing shade to see where it sticks (at multiple players)
-Overall: there's some game solving attempts, there's some tunneling of Chaos (who does it back - it's not one-sided to be sure), but since my wanting to village lean him was based on tone, I'm not sticking with that read. Moving cubs down to scummy feels.
You dont lock in a vote at 9am on yolo before anyone has even had a chance to discuss anything . And since when is getting burned an excuse? I owned up to my failures with @TelemarketingEnigma
I understand this reasoning though, and this is actually why I was side-eyeing Zenge for defending alley at the start of the game. Especially since it's not like cubs could salt vote samac in this game.
Then there's the joking back and forth with Coop about how to spell ophtho, not gonna pull those quotes to save space and also because I don't think they give any info, just entertainment. I don't get the same feeling about him saying her editing was sus that I got from Vissy saying that because Vis continued to push it/bring it up as factoring into her read of Coop even days later, whereas cubs mentioned it jokingly and then dropped it. With Vis, I felt like I could glean a little info from it because she wouldn't let go of it; with cubs, I feel like it's just jokes and NAI.
Feels jokey to me (and also understandable - I'd imagine that anyaff!cubs has salt toward everyone who was left at the end of RvB given that he was the final misyeet).
In general I'm going to think people who discarded a town role did so because they have another town role to draw alignment from. So I'm eyeballing those who discarded scum roles harder, because while they may have discarded a scum role for town roles, they also may not have had the choice to be town and had all scum to pick from. Main issue with this thinking has to do with in what cases did someone favor scum over town.
Or because they only had town roles to pick from. Just as youre pointing out some people may have only had scum to pick from. I dont remember this much emphasis being placed on discard roles so soon in the game in CYO I. Seems strange that the first thing Chaos wants to do is start revealing.
This is saying almost exactly the same thing as Cray said, just taking it a tiny bit farther (but a point that I'm not sure I see the benefit of making because whether they had 1 other town role to draw alignment from or only had town roles, the conclusion Cray and cubs are drawing seems to be the same anyway). Vis actually mentions this:
I was making a point that cray failed to make in her own post, then came back later and said the same thing, then asked me why I was saying the same thing she already had. Its a moot point
Didn't think much of it initially. Keeping in the back of my mind now that this could be scum trying to look like they're game solving without actually game solving.
Next up there's the start of all the cubs-Chaos bickering, which has been discussed a lot already, so I'd rather save space. I'll note though that arguing with/about Chaos (or posts solely about him) has accounted for ~18% of cubs' posts.
I think this may have been stated earlier but to say it again/agree with prior sentiment, I dont think you can rely heavily on "what someone likes to be." The whole point in a game like this is to do what people wouldnt expect, especially if youre usually a hardcore village that hates being a wolf. Thats how you easily get a village (not even meta?) read just for existing as a player who doesnt like wolfing. On the other hand, the reverse for someone like myself, who the general consensus is that i "like wolfing." Actually I find it stressful as hell, although I do enjoy it when it happens. That doesnt mean I always want to do that, especially when im non stop read as wolfy. Same for Stagg or whoever else. Im not trying to discredit anything youve said, but like shorty for instance is basically getting an automatic early pass from you because you just dont believe she'd ever pick a scum role. You also never thought samac would betray you (not saying that to bring up salt, using it as a legit example) and look what happened. That long Cray post from yesterday also, a perfectly believable thing for her to say (and it may be the truth 99% of the time), but it gives her a leg up if she did want to pick a scum/3P role.
This was his response to alley's reads post. It's a valid point, but when he keeps going with it later, he kind of uses it to try to shade her using one of her reads where it was clear that she was factoring posts in too. It would have made the most sense if he'd tried to push this point by using her read of please, or maybe even Dubz, but that he chose to use me when her first real sentence was about my recent posts felt kind of strange. You can see alley's whole list if you click the cubs quote, it'll take you back to that, but I'll pull those 3 reads in for easy comparison:
supershorty- Village lean. Her recent posts feel very village. I have a hard time believing she would willingly pick a scum role. She loves vanilla villager so I could see her picking a PR or vanilla townie but I definitely have a hard time imagining that she would pick a scum role (especially since she discarded a village role, so she could have been village affiliation with the discard).
vetschoolsletmeinplease- neutral, slight village lean. So far, sounds like her village tone. Haven’t seen a whole lot from her but she is another person who I would be SHOCKED if she willingly chose to be (edit: scum/NOT) village.
WildZoo- neutral. I think she would pick 3P if she had a choice, and she’s so good at wolfing that she’d actually be a great scum choice. Haven’t noticed a lot from her tone wise, but she sounds identical to me when she’s wolfing and when she’s village.
Why? You've softly defended cubs twice now.
I had him on the villagey side of neutral, but it seems like most people disagree with me, and his recent posts haven't really made me feel great about my tone read of him. I don't want to vote there yet, but I'm sliding him down in my neutrals.
My "tone" may have a lot to do with my IRL today (not that you have to believe that or not use that for your info gathering) combined with me trying to do a complete catch up and respond to all of the developments with concise answers so people know where I stand before I have to go out for the evening.
I dont remember you actually giving any kind of full answer to my question to you about why is it not reasonable for me having never played with chaos, and also only playing my 2nd CYO game, to legitimately have slight misunderstandings about what was going on, especially with the backwards-than-usual verbage that was being used in regards to roles, affiliations, and abilities.
This was in response to Dina giving her reads list where cubs is in her scum leans. To be fair, Dina's reasoning for him being in her scum leans involved a lot of the cubs-Chaos roles discussion, so I understand the fixation on it in this particular post.
Reading back on all this Vis stuff she is starting to approach scum territory. But Dubbie still just feels so way off. Chaos and Coop still in the mix. The dubz 4 hour monologue struck me as odd earlier today... i dont ever see her really doing the post by post approach vs larger cohesive publications. It was almost like she was trying to make up for "lack of content" that people had called her out for not providing yesterday. And there was a lot of pro-cubs posting/potential pocketing thrown in there as well. Normally village dubz likes to push me. Then she used all of that to finally make it a 3 way tie putting vis in the mix... which I dont necessarily disagree with that vote at this point, but lets put her in the lead for the time being and keep the heat on.
I'm not sure how long of a break cubs took so I don't know how much to read into the Dubz meta discussion (the shorter posts vs longer posts). I haven't ISOed Dubz, but I don't remember a lot of really strong pro-cubs posts?
I didnt knock her for being unavailable, I just agreed with shorty in that when she did post it wasnt anything driving conversation or pushing people as her usual village. Im also used to longer block posts vs single post catch up reads, that was just something I noticed that was different. Her pro-cubs comments just seemed pockety to me personally, its something that I dont get from her a lot in a game (last game she modded when said made the best read no one listened to comment). Making the 3 way tie last night seemed kind of strange so I put her in the lead to see where that would go. Overall just getting a non village affiliation feel.
lol ok. Clearly everything I do or say with you is throwing shade, even the completely obvious sarcastic posts sometimes.
in any case, why point out someone's vote is salt but not mine which was the exact same thing? Go read my post and tell me how "yeet alleyx5" as the second post of a game can be interpreted in any other way.
This is the start of another few interactions that I already talked about in Vissy's ISO yesterday. Still feel the same way there that I did in terms of thinking it was weird to push it and then say he wasn't pushing it when I pointed out that I copy/paste (and that I'd already mentioned that), but based on what Dubz and Coop said about him being incorrectly village-read based on tone in a previous game, I'm less willing to ascribe villageyness to the "feeling targeted, feels like village!cubs" vibes that I was getting on the first read-through. Or second read-through, since I looked at these posts yesterday, and that means today is the third read-through.
Coop and Chaos. I keep wanting to actually push chaos a little more village because his tone and interactions have seemed to have calmed down but he just cant let go of our interaction which makes me feel like he's not even attempting to evaluate anyone else so that he at minimum has an obvious wolf read to go after.
Default village just meant I really havent paid much attention to him compared to others, implying nothing is striking me as wolfy at this moment, so im concentrating more on the people I actually have some suspicion over.
Also vis trying to take more of the ticky tack stuff (like me throwing "shade" at shorty) and trying to make it into a bigger deal than it is, is bothersome. And I dont know where this sudden take off of me/zenge being a scum pair came from. I see what shes saying about some of his posts being pro-cubs/slight defenses of me, but I dont see anything substantial to lead to a conclusion that we could be working together, especially when there's at least 3-4 factions in play right now.
Where are you on Vis right now? If you commented about it somewhere already let me know, been a lot of discussion this AM.
(sorry, this one isn't linked properly because it's in one of the wall posts and I don't feel like dealing with quoting from that. I copy/pasted the text from cubs quoting it in the post below.
Youre trying to make the same point as me. But I'm not referring to wall posts, i said bloc posts, as in like one longer paragraph or two of reads/commentary. Or a full ordered reads list. Not single post by post activity, just like youre saying she doesnt do huge quote wall posts either.
This bothered me for a couple reasons. 1, I hate when people try to tell me the point they think I'm supposedly trying to make, and 2, especially because we weren't making the same point at all. I was disagreeing with cubs about the structure of Dubz's posts. I've seen her do the short, individual responses a lot (and I know that's what she prefers over the bigger posts, especially gargantuan posts like my ISOs always end up being. We've talked about it before because I added the tl;drs for people like her).
Started doubting his Dubz read but never came off her vote. Meh. Not sure I can penalize him for that because I've doubted reads and stayed on their votes before (in this game, even).
I told Dina Ive got him leaning village, moreso because I have other wolf reads, not necessarily because he's got a bunch of village points, although his play seems the same to me as last game. Maybe an uptick in the shorty in-game banter.
Just putting these in here because they made me laugh since cubs has never played with me. There is, indeed, quite a large increase in shorty in-game banter when I'm playing compared to when I'm not
I didnt know what to do. Earlier, changing would have created more potential tie situations because I only felt comfortable maybe moving to visc. Changing last minute for no real reason would have just added confusion syrup to the waffles, and we definitely dont need that.
I thought you would have been okay with going onto Coop, did you not include her here because you didn't think that vote would be viable anyway?
And then we come to this interaction, which is just a feels moment I've had, but it's a feels moment that I considered a lot last night because I forgot to take my chemo until pretty late and then was awake feeling like garbage, so I mulled this over and tried to decide why it bothered me so much.
So like, there's that, and sure, it might be a joke - there have been other jokes in the game (although not ones really this intertwined with the game itself), but it just FEELS like a scum slip to me. And maybe it's not - I won't base a read off of something like that, but it pinged me and it made me uncomfortable. Because villagers don't know who else is a villager. I'm not reading into the lol either way.
This didn't really make me feel any better. If it was a scum slip, they could BOTH be scum and not be the same faction. It could have been a villager saying something really off, too. But it sketched me out.
Interesting how dubz immediately brings up yeeting vis after day close, shorty, sunny, and dina all say thats a good idea/will consider. Dina ends up dead, so sunny votes vis, and now people are questioning it?
This seems like it kind of has to be aimed at me given the timing, and I was questioning the value of throwing a vote on someone without using time for discussion when we only need 5 votes to hammer. Did we already forget the lessons from last game? Sure, sometimes putting a vote down early is useful and can stir up discussion, but I don't personally see the value of doing it in a game with maj invoked. I'd rather have the time to discuss. This quote is also notable to me because later on, he tries to make something out of my having a village lean on Vis and then ISOing her to consider - which I'd literally said I was going to do the night before, consider voting there, and that felt kind of off to me.
So coop has gone from aloof/minimally participatory to making decent effort/more serious now to slightly aggressive/seemingly upset over a simple frustrated comment from someone else (when she often vents about similar things). Not sure what to make of that.
Where was she upset? Also, light defense of sunny noted. As the game has gone on, I've started to notice some buddying between sunny and cubs, and there are a few possibilities there. v/v who have the start of a bloc (I don't think this is as likely from my reads of them), scum/v (possible, but not the feeling I've really gotten), or scum/scum - and with that, I have to consider whether they'd be different or same faction. If I had to pick one of those, I'd say that I'm leaning toward the last option - the buddying gets stronger as the thread goes on, and it was interesting to me that they narrowed into this lightly coordinated effort to throw shade at me later in the evening (sunny didn't like that I ISOed her and didn't come out reading her village, cubs tried to shade my reconsidering Vis as being weird).
No, actually. And I'm just pointing out something fairly obvious, but then again everything I do seems to give everyone a "twinge" these days. I didnt say you had to go hammer vis. Im saying one person put one vote down out of 4 who were potential visc voters today and there was shade being thrown for it/questions being asked as to why. Just saying its slightly hypocritical, thats all.
He was already talking about it again today. Yesterday I said Im done with it. If he wants to have discussion about something else then I'll gladly engage, otherwise he shouldnt expect to hear from me. The main difference here is that tunneling me is literally all he's done whereas I have been fully engaged in the rest of the game.
While I appreciate this effort, and did read all of it, the whole thing to me boils down to you kind of "talking yourself out of vis" as an option. You conclude that there never really was anything strongly pinging you and that you had been village-leaning her (then why the need for all this reconsideration?), despite being one of the people last night after close to say you think you could possibly vote there (yes, i know thats not a committment to vote there). And then the very last line of the entire thing is a straight up hedge, i should want to vote her, but dont really, at least not yet. That's a lot of effort to get vis back into your village column.
When I say I'm going to consider people, I consider them. This actually really irritated me because again, in a game with maj, I feel like we SHOULD be discussing, and I think it's weird as hell to try and shade me for like ... doing what I said I was going to do. And you know what, I don't come out of ISOs with strong feelings every time (actually, often when I have STRONG feels and am like omg this person is a wolf, I'm wrong). I've had more accurate reads of people when I ISO and then take some time to think about it, or ISO and re-evaluate things I'd looked at before - in Bioshock, most times that I reevaluated someone, I landed on a more accurate read. So I'm not expecting to come out of any of them and be like "this person is scum and I must yeet them immediately," but rather to have all their posts that I feel are important in one place.
And yeah, I'm **** at reading Vis and I'm not kidding when I say that my votes on her are generally more accurate when I do the opposite of what my gut feeling. Sorry.
Idk the vibes feel really suspect but I fear that’s confirmation bias. A lot of why I felt he was scummy yesterday was because I felt pretty strongly about him and Z wolfing together. Obviously that’s not true, so he’s a much less strong scum read, but I think I still want to read him scummier than I should based on the evidence because I want to have been right about him.
Chaos doing nothing but tunneling one player, and other than helping coordinate role discovery at the beginning of D1, not even interacting or giving any kind of in depth reads outside of me and maybe calling dubz village - that doesnt ping you? Not even just a nanosmidge?
So.... really you didnt reconsider me at all then. Validated why I felt what I did and that it was legit, your zenge/cubs narrative fell apart, yet I feel like I actually moved up on your scum list even further. You basically used your re-eval of me to re-affirm/strengthen your chaos read because he had the same exact interaction with someone else in one other game that he was village in. And then at the same time I'm being told by dubz that i need to "do better" when I tried to use meta to evaluate her in this same game.
I guess I'm just a little pissed because if the roles were reversed and I was doing what chaos was doing right now, id be getting called out left and right and would be next on the chopping block.
This is another place where I feel like cubs got kind of weirdly defensive. I interpreted the bolded part differently - I think it's Vis acknowledging that she WANTS to lean him scummier than the evidence suggests just because she wants to be right (don't we all), not that she IS leaning him scummier. This reminded me of earlier when I said that my [village-neutral] read of him was a tone read and he got defensive about that.
Well, I was going to come out and go here but it looks like you beat me to it. Moreso for pressure to get some discourse going. But if one vote doesnt work by mid-day I have no problem becoming number 2.
I'm not going to really get into the Coopah discussion because it'll go back to the sub thing and I don't any of us suffering consequences.
@WildZoo, how are you feeling about Coop, since you've played with her a lot more? I really wanted to yeet her D1, but I feel like her tone and content has changed. And here's the thing - I kind of doubt that she'd have a wincon to get yeeted D1, not meet it, and THEN start playing harder, especially if like she says, she didn't want to play anymore. It just doesn't make sense. I don't really know how to make sense of her yet, but I'm hoping that she'll keep contributing today and that'll help me resolve where I'm leaning on her.
@WildZoo, how are you feeling about Coop, since you've played with her a lot more? I really wanted to yeet her D1, but I feel like her tone and content has changed. And here's the thing - I kind of doubt that she'd have a wincon to get yeeted D1, not meet it, and THEN start playing harder, especially if like she says, she didn't want to play anymore. It just doesn't make sense. I don't really know how to make sense of her yet, but I'm hoping that she'll keep contributing today and that'll help me resolve where I'm leaning on her.
I used to have a really solid coop reading card but I'm not sure I do anymore. My gut says to read her village and read d1 as her just remembering why she quit playing WW and wanting out, and then maybe as the game went on she felt more like trying, idk. But I'm afraid of my gut being wrong and people relying on it too much because I've played with her a lot and know her well.
Also thanks for pointing me to where this was, appreciate it.
My comment about seeing people look stupid for voting for me triggered him. I said something about watching people eat crow when I was being yoten in Baby Animals. He doesn't realize that wolf!dubz uses those tactics because they're authentic village!dubz reactions. But it's not something I can really argue against because...yeah. I do it as any affiliation and if people are able to tell the difference then I'm not doing a good enough job when I'm scum. Same reason I wasn't gonna fight vis's comment about my "fake" village helplessness or whatever. It's not fake, this time, but I get why she'd feel that way.
Alright, I'm starting with ISOing cubs because I have a few I want to do today and he has the most posts so I wanted to have maximum energy available. Also because Dina was sussing him and she died, so that's a starting point.
Btw, those who have an issue with the ISO lengths - I didn't used to include tl;drs with them and I do now for people who don't like reading wall posts, so if you still want to whine about how they're too long and you don't want to read them or whatever, bite me. They take a long time for me to put together, and if you don't want to read them, fine, but you don't need to bitch about it on thread when I provide a summary for you anyway.
tl;dr:
-Dubz, I mention you with a question but it's at the bottom, so scroll all the way down for that.
-There are a lot of moments of, IMO, kind of odd or over-the-top defensiveness to comments - and weirdly, they're usually comments that aren't really sussing him that much? This was the kind of stuff that I wanted to village-lean him for just based on tone before, but since people who have played with him before discouraged that, I'm keeping that in mind. And actually, looking back at them and really looking at the context they were said in makes me less inclined to give them villagey vibes.
-There's some buddying with sunny that started yesterday and seems like it's continuing today.
-Lots of moments that feel like throwing shade to see where it sticks (at multiple players)
-Overall: there's some game solving attempts, there's some tunneling of Chaos (who does it back - it's not one-sided to be sure), but since my wanting to village lean him was based on tone, I'm not sticking with that read. Moving cubs down to scummy feels.
S A L T
This still felt weird and shade-throwy. I can't say it feels different on reread because it's literally his second post in the game.
I understand this reasoning though, and this is actually why I was side-eyeing Zenge for defending alley at the start of the game. Especially since it's not like cubs could salt vote samac in this game.
Then there's the joking back and forth with Coop about how to spell ophtho, not gonna pull those quotes to save space and also because I don't think they give any info, just entertainment. I don't get the same feeling about him saying her editing was sus that I got from Vissy saying that because Vis continued to push it/bring it up as factoring into her read of Coop even days later, whereas cubs mentioned it jokingly and then dropped it. With Vis, I felt like I could glean a little info from it because she wouldn't let go of it; with cubs, I feel like it's just jokes and NAI.
Feels jokey to me (and also understandable - I'd imagine that anyaff!cubs has salt toward everyone who was left at the end of RvB given that he was the final misyeet).
This is saying almost exactly the same thing as Cray said, just taking it a tiny bit farther (but a point that I'm not sure I see the benefit of making because whether they had 1 other town role to draw alignment from or only had town roles, the conclusion Cray and cubs are drawing seems to be the same anyway). Vis actually mentions this:
Didn't think much of it initially. Keeping in the back of my mind now that this could be scum trying to look like they're game solving without actually game solving.
Next up there's the start of all the cubs-Chaos bickering, which has been discussed a lot already, so I'd rather save space. I'll note though that arguing with/about Chaos (or posts solely about him) has accounted for ~18% of cubs' posts.
Moving on:
This was his response to alley's reads post. It's a valid point, but when he keeps going with it later, he kind of uses it to try to shade her using one of her reads where it was clear that she was factoring posts in too. It would have made the most sense if he'd tried to push this point by using her read of please, or maybe even Dubz, but that he chose to use me when her first real sentence was about my recent posts felt kind of strange. You can see alley's whole list if you click the cubs quote, it'll take you back to that, but I'll pull those 3 reads in for easy comparison:
This felt oddly defensive when my tone read, to that point, was leading me to a village-neutral read on him.
I already mentioned this post in Vissy's ISO yesterday, so I'm not going to reiterate the same point on it again. I don't have new thoughts on it.
I don't think this interaction indicates anything AI.
This was in response to Dina giving her reads list where cubs is in her scum leans. To be fair, Dina's reasoning for him being in her scum leans involved a lot of the cubs-Chaos roles discussion, so I understand the fixation on it in this particular post.
I'm not sure how long of a break cubs took so I don't know how much to read into the Dubz meta discussion (the shorter posts vs longer posts). I haven't ISOed Dubz, but I don't remember a lot of really strong pro-cubs posts?
This is the start of another few interactions that I already talked about in Vissy's ISO yesterday. Still feel the same way there that I did in terms of thinking it was weird to push it and then say he wasn't pushing it when I pointed out that I copy/paste (and that I'd already mentioned that), but based on what Dubz and Coop said about him being incorrectly village-read based on tone in a previous game, I'm less willing to ascribe villageyness to the "feeling targeted, feels like village!cubs" vibes that I was getting on the first read-through. Or second read-through, since I looked at these posts yesterday, and that means today is the third read-through.
Feels a little more game-solving than some of his previous posts. Less fixation on the Chaos thing, more willingness to talk about other people.
(sorry, this one isn't linked properly because it's in one of the wall posts and I don't feel like dealing with quoting from that. I copy/pasted the text from cubs quoting it in the post below.
This bothered me for a couple reasons. 1, I hate when people try to tell me the point they think I'm supposedly trying to make, and 2, especially because we weren't making the same point at all. I was disagreeing with cubs about the structure of Dubz's posts. I've seen her do the short, individual responses a lot (and I know that's what she prefers over the bigger posts, especially gargantuan posts like my ISOs always end up being. We've talked about it before because I added the tl;drs for people like her).
Started doubting his Dubz read but never came off her vote. Meh. Not sure I can penalize him for that because I've doubted reads and stayed on their votes before (in this game, even).
Just putting these in here because they made me laugh since cubs has never played with me. There is, indeed, quite a large increase in shorty in-game banter when I'm playing compared to when I'm not
@cubsrule4e, I realize alley hasn't posted much new content since you said this, but how are you feeling about her currently?
I thought you would have been okay with going onto Coop, did you not include her here because you didn't think that vote would be viable anyway?
And then we come to this interaction, which is just a feels moment I've had, but it's a feels moment that I considered a lot last night because I forgot to take my chemo until pretty late and then was awake feeling like garbage, so I mulled this over and tried to decide why it bothered me so much.
So like, there's that, and sure, it might be a joke - there have been other jokes in the game (although not ones really this intertwined with the game itself), but it just FEELS like a scum slip to me. And maybe it's not - I won't base a read off of something like that, but it pinged me and it made me uncomfortable. Because villagers don't know who else is a villager. I'm not reading into the lol either way.
This didn't really make me feel any better. If it was a scum slip, they could BOTH be scum and not be the same faction. It could have been a villager saying something really off, too. But it sketched me out.
This seems like it kind of has to be aimed at me given the timing, and I was questioning the value of throwing a vote on someone without using time for discussion when we only need 5 votes to hammer. Did we already forget the lessons from last game? Sure, sometimes putting a vote down early is useful and can stir up discussion, but I don't personally see the value of doing it in a game with maj invoked. I'd rather have the time to discuss. This quote is also notable to me because later on, he tries to make something out of my having a village lean on Vis and then ISOing her to consider - which I'd literally said I was going to do the night before, consider voting there, and that felt kind of off to me.
Where was she upset? Also, light defense of sunny noted. As the game has gone on, I've started to notice some buddying between sunny and cubs, and there are a few possibilities there. v/v who have the start of a bloc (I don't think this is as likely from my reads of them), scum/v (possible, but not the feeling I've really gotten), or scum/scum - and with that, I have to consider whether they'd be different or same faction. If I had to pick one of those, I'd say that I'm leaning toward the last option - the buddying gets stronger as the thread goes on, and it was interesting to me that they narrowed into this lightly coordinated effort to throw shade at me later in the evening (sunny didn't like that I ISOed her and didn't come out reading her village, cubs tried to shade my reconsidering Vis as being weird).
Point out where I "threw shade" versus questioned the value of it, please.
Is it, though? I don't think this is an accurate reflection of Chaos' involvement in the game.
When I say I'm going to consider people, I consider them. This actually really irritated me because again, in a game with maj, I feel like we SHOULD be discussing, and I think it's weird as hell to try and shade me for like ... doing what I said I was going to do. And you know what, I don't come out of ISOs with strong feelings every time (actually, often when I have STRONG feels and am like omg this person is a wolf, I'm wrong). I've had more accurate reads of people when I ISO and then take some time to think about it, or ISO and re-evaluate things I'd looked at before - in Bioshock, most times that I reevaluated someone, I landed on a more accurate read. So I'm not expecting to come out of any of them and be like "this person is scum and I must yeet them immediately," but rather to have all their posts that I feel are important in one place.
And yeah, I'm **** at reading Vis and I'm not kidding when I say that my votes on her are generally more accurate when I do the opposite of what my gut feeling. Sorry.
This is another place where I feel like cubs got kind of weirdly defensive. I interpreted the bolded part differently - I think it's Vis acknowledging that she WANTS to lean him scummier than the evidence suggests just because she wants to be right (don't we all), not that she IS leaning him scummier. This reminded me of earlier when I said that my [village-neutral] read of him was a tone read and he got defensive about that.
I'm not going to really get into the Coopah discussion because it'll go back to the sub thing and I don't any of us suffering consequences.
@WildZoo, how are you feeling about Coop, since you've played with her a lot more? I really wanted to yeet her D1, but I feel like her tone and content has changed. And here's the thing - I kind of doubt that she'd have a wincon to get yeeted D1, not meet it, and THEN start playing harder, especially if like she says, she didn't want to play anymore. It just doesn't make sense. I don't really know how to make sense of her yet, but I'm hoping that she'll keep contributing today and that'll help me resolve where I'm leaning on her.
Alright, I'm starting with ISOing cubs because I have a few I want to do today and he has the most posts so I wanted to have maximum energy available. Also because Dina was sussing him and she died, so that's a starting point.
Btw, those who have an issue with the ISO lengths - I didn't used to include tl;drs with them and I do now for people who don't like reading wall posts, so if you still want to whine about how they're too long and you don't want to read them or whatever, bite me. They take a long time for me to put together, and if you don't want to read them, fine, but you don't need to bitch about it on thread when I provide a summary for you anyway.
tl;dr:
-Dubz, I mention you with a question but it's at the bottom, so scroll all the way down for that.
-There are a lot of moments of, IMO, kind of odd or over-the-top defensiveness to comments - and weirdly, they're usually comments that aren't really sussing him that much? This was the kind of stuff that I wanted to village-lean him for just based on tone before, but since people who have played with him before discouraged that, I'm keeping that in mind. And actually, looking back at them and really looking at the context they were said in makes me less inclined to give them villagey vibes.
-There's some buddying with sunny that started yesterday and seems like it's continuing today.
-Lots of moments that feel like throwing shade to see where it sticks (at multiple players)
-Overall: there's some game solving attempts, there's some tunneling of Chaos (who does it back - it's not one-sided to be sure), but since my wanting to village lean him was based on tone, I'm not sticking with that read. Moving cubs down to scummy feels.
S A L T
This still felt weird and shade-throwy. I can't say it feels different on reread because it's literally his second post in the game.
I understand this reasoning though, and this is actually why I was side-eyeing Zenge for defending alley at the start of the game. Especially since it's not like cubs could salt vote samac in this game.
Then there's the joking back and forth with Coop about how to spell ophtho, not gonna pull those quotes to save space and also because I don't think they give any info, just entertainment. I don't get the same feeling about him saying her editing was sus that I got from Vissy saying that because Vis continued to push it/bring it up as factoring into her read of Coop even days later, whereas cubs mentioned it jokingly and then dropped it. With Vis, I felt like I could glean a little info from it because she wouldn't let go of it; with cubs, I feel like it's just jokes and NAI.
Feels jokey to me (and also understandable - I'd imagine that anyaff!cubs has salt toward everyone who was left at the end of RvB given that he was the final misyeet).
This is saying almost exactly the same thing as Cray said, just taking it a tiny bit farther (but a point that I'm not sure I see the benefit of making because whether they had 1 other town role to draw alignment from or only had town roles, the conclusion Cray and cubs are drawing seems to be the same anyway). Vis actually mentions this:
Didn't think much of it initially. Keeping in the back of my mind now that this could be scum trying to look like they're game solving without actually game solving.
Next up there's the start of all the cubs-Chaos bickering, which has been discussed a lot already, so I'd rather save space. I'll note though that arguing with/about Chaos (or posts solely about him) has accounted for ~18% of cubs' posts.
Moving on:
This was his response to alley's reads post. It's a valid point, but when he keeps going with it later, he kind of uses it to try to shade her using one of her reads where it was clear that she was factoring posts in too. It would have made the most sense if he'd tried to push this point by using her read of please, or maybe even Dubz, but that he chose to use me when her first real sentence was about my recent posts felt kind of strange. You can see alley's whole list if you click the cubs quote, it'll take you back to that, but I'll pull those 3 reads in for easy comparison:
This felt oddly defensive when my tone read, to that point, was leading me to a village-neutral read on him.
I already mentioned this post in Vissy's ISO yesterday, so I'm not going to reiterate the same point on it again. I don't have new thoughts on it.
I don't think this interaction indicates anything AI.
This was in response to Dina giving her reads list where cubs is in her scum leans. To be fair, Dina's reasoning for him being in her scum leans involved a lot of the cubs-Chaos roles discussion, so I understand the fixation on it in this particular post.
I'm not sure how long of a break cubs took so I don't know how much to read into the Dubz meta discussion (the shorter posts vs longer posts). I haven't ISOed Dubz, but I don't remember a lot of really strong pro-cubs posts?
This is the start of another few interactions that I already talked about in Vissy's ISO yesterday. Still feel the same way there that I did in terms of thinking it was weird to push it and then say he wasn't pushing it when I pointed out that I copy/paste (and that I'd already mentioned that), but based on what Dubz and Coop said about him being incorrectly village-read based on tone in a previous game, I'm less willing to ascribe villageyness to the "feeling targeted, feels like village!cubs" vibes that I was getting on the first read-through. Or second read-through, since I looked at these posts yesterday, and that means today is the third read-through.
Feels a little more game-solving than some of his previous posts. Less fixation on the Chaos thing, more willingness to talk about other people.
(sorry, this one isn't linked properly because it's in one of the wall posts and I don't feel like dealing with quoting from that. I copy/pasted the text from cubs quoting it in the post below.
This bothered me for a couple reasons. 1, I hate when people try to tell me the point they think I'm supposedly trying to make, and 2, especially because we weren't making the same point at all. I was disagreeing with cubs about the structure of Dubz's posts. I've seen her do the short, individual responses a lot (and I know that's what she prefers over the bigger posts, especially gargantuan posts like my ISOs always end up being. We've talked about it before because I added the tl;drs for people like her).
Started doubting his Dubz read but never came off her vote. Meh. Not sure I can penalize him for that because I've doubted reads and stayed on their votes before (in this game, even).
Just putting these in here because they made me laugh since cubs has never played with me. There is, indeed, quite a large increase in shorty in-game banter when I'm playing compared to when I'm not
@cubsrule4e, I realize alley hasn't posted much new content since you said this, but how are you feeling about her currently?
I thought you would have been okay with going onto Coop, did you not include her here because you didn't think that vote would be viable anyway?
And then we come to this interaction, which is just a feels moment I've had, but it's a feels moment that I considered a lot last night because I forgot to take my chemo until pretty late and then was awake feeling like garbage, so I mulled this over and tried to decide why it bothered me so much.
So like, there's that, and sure, it might be a joke - there have been other jokes in the game (although not ones really this intertwined with the game itself), but it just FEELS like a scum slip to me. And maybe it's not - I won't base a read off of something like that, but it pinged me and it made me uncomfortable. Because villagers don't know who else is a villager. I'm not reading into the lol either way.
This didn't really make me feel any better. If it was a scum slip, they could BOTH be scum and not be the same faction. It could have been a villager saying something really off, too. But it sketched me out.
This seems like it kind of has to be aimed at me given the timing, and I was questioning the value of throwing a vote on someone without using time for discussion when we only need 5 votes to hammer. Did we already forget the lessons from last game? Sure, sometimes putting a vote down early is useful and can stir up discussion, but I don't personally see the value of doing it in a game with maj invoked. I'd rather have the time to discuss. This quote is also notable to me because later on, he tries to make something out of my having a village lean on Vis and then ISOing her to consider - which I'd literally said I was going to do the night before, consider voting there, and that felt kind of off to me.
Where was she upset? Also, light defense of sunny noted. As the game has gone on, I've started to notice some buddying between sunny and cubs, and there are a few possibilities there. v/v who have the start of a bloc (I don't think this is as likely from my reads of them), scum/v (possible, but not the feeling I've really gotten), or scum/scum - and with that, I have to consider whether they'd be different or same faction. If I had to pick one of those, I'd say that I'm leaning toward the last option - the buddying gets stronger as the thread goes on, and it was interesting to me that they narrowed into this lightly coordinated effort to throw shade at me later in the evening (sunny didn't like that I ISOed her and didn't come out reading her village, cubs tried to shade my reconsidering Vis as being weird).
Point out where I "threw shade" versus questioned the value of it, please.
Is it, though? I don't think this is an accurate reflection of Chaos' involvement in the game.
When I say I'm going to consider people, I consider them. This actually really irritated me because again, in a game with maj, I feel like we SHOULD be discussing, and I think it's weird as hell to try and shade me for like ... doing what I said I was going to do. And you know what, I don't come out of ISOs with strong feelings every time (actually, often when I have STRONG feels and am like omg this person is a wolf, I'm wrong). I've had more accurate reads of people when I ISO and then take some time to think about it, or ISO and re-evaluate things I'd looked at before - in Bioshock, most times that I reevaluated someone, I landed on a more accurate read. So I'm not expecting to come out of any of them and be like "this person is scum and I must yeet them immediately," but rather to have all their posts that I feel are important in one place.
And yeah, I'm **** at reading Vis and I'm not kidding when I say that my votes on her are generally more accurate when I do the opposite of what my gut feeling. Sorry.
This is another place where I feel like cubs got kind of weirdly defensive. I interpreted the bolded part differently - I think it's Vis acknowledging that she WANTS to lean him scummier than the evidence suggests just because she wants to be right (don't we all), not that she IS leaning him scummier. This reminded me of earlier when I said that my [village-neutral] read of him was a tone read and he got defensive about that.
I'm not going to really get into the Coopah discussion because it'll go back to the sub thing and I don't any of us suffering consequences.
@WildZoo, how are you feeling about Coop, since you've played with her a lot more? I really wanted to yeet her D1, but I feel like her tone and content has changed. And here's the thing - I kind of doubt that she'd have a wincon to get yeeted D1, not meet it, and THEN start playing harder, especially if like she says, she didn't want to play anymore. It just doesn't make sense. I don't really know how to make sense of her yet, but I'm hoping that she'll keep contributing today and that'll help me resolve where I'm leaning on her.
More retal reading since I sussed your vis eval yesterday. So you’ve done an entire wall post to talk yourself out of vis, and now an entire wall post to talk yourself into me. This feels like some kind of slow crafting a faction would do to try to start to line up who they are wanting to keep/get rid of for end game.
More retal reading since I sussed your vis eval yesterday. So you’ve done an entire wall post to talk yourself out of vis, and now an entire wall post to talk yourself into me. This feels like some kind of slow crafting a faction would do to try to start to line up who they are wanting to keep/get rid of for end game.
Yeah no, if you think that distills down to a "retal read," that's just seeing what you WANT to see.
Congrats though, you can join sunny in the club of "people who only sus shorty when she's village," and that's a pretty small club. Good for you guys. Although in your case, you haven't played with me when I'm scum, so I'm not sure you can really get the full cred there.
Yeah no, if you think that distills down to a "retal read," that's just seeing what you WANT to see.
Congrats though, you can join sunny in the club of "people who only sus shorty when she's village," and that's a pretty small club. Good for you guys. Although in your case, you haven't played with me when I'm scum, so I'm not sure you can really get the full cred there.
nah I still have you as more village, just not as much. That’s another thing I should point out. A lot of other players can throw reads out on each other and it’s all good, but without exception, every single time I do make a point that something might be suspicious, suddenly it’s taken that I’m wolf reading them and that makes ME suspicious because there’s “nothing there” for me to feel that way.
so to everyone else: how do you feel about the two shorty ISO’s? Agree with her? Disagree? Anyone catch the same tingle I felt was off? Or Is that just another unjustified meaningless thing that I pointed out?
nah I still have you as more village, just not as much. That’s another thing I should point out. A lot of other players can throw reads out on each other and it’s all good, but without exception, every single time I do make a point that something might be suspicious, suddenly it’s taken that I’m wolf reading them and that makes ME suspicious because there’s “nothing there” for me to feel that way.
so to everyone else: how do you feel about the two shorty ISO’s? Agree with her? Disagree? Anyone catch the same tingle I felt was off? Or Is that just another unjustified meaningless thing that I pointed out?
nah I still have you as more village, just not as much. That’s another thing I should point out. A lot of other players can throw reads out on each other and it’s all good, but without exception, every single time I do make a point that something might be suspicious, suddenly it’s taken that I’m wolf reading them and that makes ME suspicious because there’s “nothing there” for me to feel that way.
so to everyone else: how do you feel about the two shorty ISO’s? Agree with her? Disagree? Anyone catch the same tingle I felt was off? Or Is that just another unjustified meaningless thing that I pointed out?
Note, I haven't read the ISOs yet, just wondering since you didn't seem to like them whether you have specific thoughts other than that you disagree with the conclusions.
Here is me taking an hour to format and respond to shorty’s inquisition, a post so long no one will read it anyway, except shorty who either has a scum agenda or has a bias.
wow you DEMAND an explanation after I literally said word for word “just a feeling. Not strong enough to try to persuade others, and Im willing to re-assess as the day goes on
i mean i think she was asking for explanation bc it can be really easy for a wolf to place a vote on "feels" then remove themselves later and be like "well it was just feels" when in reality it was TMI trying to begin a misyeet
what you said could come across as an easy out when z flipped village. "oh well most of the z sus was shorty overreacting and making a mountain out of a molehill, z didn't look bad until shorty started pushing him"
reads list based on feelings=feels list... i still dont see the problem w calling it that
the casual language doesn't strike me as shade? idk maybe thats bc "vibes" is 10% of my vocabulary but to me reads list and feels list only have the difference of a reads list having explanations/evidence
this feels like an odd thing to get hung up on?
people talk about opinions in reference to other's agreeing opinions all the time
this also feels weird
same vibe as "nothing to see here, move along"
i mean i think she was asking for explanation bc it can be really easy for a wolf to place a vote on "feels" then remove themselves later and be like "well it was just feels" when in reality it was TMI trying to begin a misyeet
what you said could come across as an easy out when z flipped village. "oh well most of the z sus was shorty overreacting and making a mountain out of a molehill, z didn't look bad until shorty started pushing him"
reads list based on feelings=feels list... i still dont see the problem w calling it that
the casual language doesn't strike me as shade? idk maybe thats bc "vibes" is 10% of my vocabulary but to me reads list and feels list only have the difference of a reads list having explanations/evidence
see above. this is literally what i said would be a wolfy way to get out of taking any blame in z's village flip lol
Unsure why sunny would need to worry about taking any blame there anyway - she wasn't voting for him. Also even if she is scum she wouldn't know he was town anyway. I don't think. Barring very specific seering abilities. I don't feel like diving into the wiki again.
I do understand, but as I was implying above, and as coop I believe mentioned earlier, I feel like when I started out there was more "fun" to it in terms of overall interactions and gameplay. People wanted to win, but it feels like it went from JV level to Olympic caliber in 6 months and Im just completely overmatched with all of these quote walls and analyzing of jokes. I definitely agree that jokes can be different with different mindsets in affiliation, but ive always just been a make a joke and throw it out there kinda player. Sometimes it felt wolfy, sometimes not - I didnt win most likely to be wolf read by doing nothing - but it was moreso the placement or timing; now the actual joke itself seems to carry a ton of weight, and is looked at even more (at least by you in this game) than some of the reads Ive put out there. I feel like a lot of my reads just get passed over as if theyre all just unfounded or unreasonable, but my "pings" are way magnified compared to someone else doing the same thing. Just because I'm not the player that throws out quote walls (props to shorty and sunny for that fireworks show) doesnt mean I dont care or am not trying to wolfhunt.
no please keep joking- it really is the difference between this being a game and this being boring
like yesterday when i gave zenge my hex codes- was joke
i try not to analyze too much what is obviously (to me- which granted, i miss a LOT of jokes as jokes) joking and i am genuinely sorry if i get hung up on something i missed as pure joke (which happens often)
Unsure why sunny would need to worry about taking any blame there anyway - she wasn't voting for him. Also even if she is scum she wouldn't know he was town anyway. I don't think. Barring very specific seering abilities. I don't feel like diving into the wiki again.
oh shoot i thought she was on him at one point.
regardless, she was sus'ing him a decent amount leading up to the vote. he remained in her wolf leans, as shes said multiple times and did have her vote on him at one point
But this is the sentiment that I think has a possibility to come from scum looking for a place to park their vote on rather than town. Because it looks like you are translating a difference in opinion into a scumread.
So you are slightly lower than neutral in my readlist as of now.
i can see how that can come across as that
my point was more that usually (I was gonna say when- but that aint true anymore lol) when z is village, even when i don't agree, I'm able to follow his logic and his views make sense very consistently and I wasn't getting that at all yesterday.
as someone who does iso's in a very similar way to shorty, theyre a double edged sword. they are a great way to get the majority of someone's post in a sequential progression so you can look at the "big picture" but its very easy to tunnel one way or the other without realizing its happening- that's bit me a couple of times.
they're also really really useful to look back on again when you start questioning your read/how you interpreted things from someone
idk how shorty does it but what's helped me is just quoting everything all at once, reading through it all and THEN reacting but im not sure if thats what shorty did.
im caught in this dichotomy of i think sunny is sounding most sus rn
but also sunny is beginning to sound like what I'm more used to village sunny sounding like
i think chaos is who i feel the worst about above that?
Have some options
1) me! I'm cute but not a very nice vote.
B) sunshine! Cool name but a little scummy to me
Pineapple) cubs - always the wild card
Dance moves) chaos! - maybe chaos took a chaos role???
Victory) vis! - literally flying under the radar today
I still want to look at please and alley, but I did Chaos next since the last one was cubs. I am not going to have time to do full-fledged ISOs like this on please and alley before yeet close tonight, they take too long and I want to be paying more attention to the thread than I can when I'm digging around in posts.
tl;dr:
-There are some head-scratching moments that I really don't know what to make of.
-I feel like the affiliation claim discussion was more pro-village than pro-scum.
-However, I think it's odd that he wanted to use the aff claims to catch scum slips, but then compiled them on the thread before everyone had claimed. I talk about this more in the post, but to me, it seems more logical to NOT make it easier for scum to see what they can't claim - yes, the info is on the thread, but putting it all in 1 post makes it easier for them - and to keep track of that info, but not put the full list up until everyone had claimed. Now, once he did, I did later on as well, because it was already out there. I just am not sure I agree with the approach of putting it up initially.
-Sparse on the reads front, but that's what I've seen from village!Chaos so I don't think I can claim it's AI.
-Some moments that feel stretchy (like some of the talk about Coop's Wonder vote)
-Not a huge difference in the amount of time spent tunneling cubs than the amount of time cubs spent tunneling him (14% of Chaos' posts, 18% of cubs' posts), which makes it feel more like they're both just responding to each other and fixated to a degree, but it's clearly not the ONLY thing that either one is talking about.
-Many of his posts talk about strategy in this kind of setup, but those are more clustered toward the beginning and early middle of his posts than the end. If it were all he talked about, I'd be concerned about scum trying to look like they're helping without actually helping, but I don't get that vibe.
I've moved him down a little to neutral, and I think we'd get some decent info from his flip, but based on what I just read through, there are other people I'd rather yeet today.
Gonna go skim please and alley's posts in the meantime.
A lot of Chaos' early posts were touched on in my Vissy ISO yesterday. I'm reading over them again, but some of these notes might be a little repetitive. Some of them are not in chronological order because I tried to at least semi-group them by the topic being discussed.
So , as many of you may not have played greatest idea before,
It is customary to claim alignments at the start of the game , helps us with some easy early town leanings and possible scum-slips.
On that note , I hard claim vigilante - aligned.
(Claim your alignment and NOT YOUR ROLE. DEFINETELY NOT THE ROLE )
The way this works is , you can see that there is only one Vigilante in the rolelist here : Greater Idea Mafia/RolePMs - MafiaWiki
(You can see the range next to the role , there are 12 VTs , 2 Cops , 2 Trackers and 1 Roleblocker , for instance.
So now that Ive claimed Vigilante aligned , If any of you had either discarded Vigilante or picked Vigilante as role or alignment , that would mean I have been a dirty liar and must be punished immediately (Since there is only one Vig possible)
Idk, the vig-aligned thing happens twice, in short succession, and I was confused by it. I don't know why he wrote it that way. Could it be a scum slip, I kinda doubt it because I don't ... really see how the aff being left out like that really ties into it. My brain really WANTS to read this as he just straight up forgot to say town-vig-aligned, but that doesn't fit since he did it twice. So idk what the deal is here, and I'm making a note of it, but I feel like it's more of a head scratcher than a ping. And then he says this:
and I have no idea what the hell to make of the earlier posts other than it feels weird. So then I keep going back to the question of "what would be the motivation for scum to take this approach?" looking at the overall discussion. It gets some roles out there as allegedly not in the game (or fewer possible in the game, for the roles that aren't 1-only), but that's not super reliable since we knew everyone was going to claim town anyway. It might give scum some ideas of roles that aren't out there, but in a game with this few players and that many roles possible, I don't feel like it's a super helpful strategy for scum to take. Could it be helpful for village? It might, it might not. I think it probably depends on how much attention scum are paying to what people claimed. It *could* be useful for catching slips on faked aff roles if 2 people claimed the same one and there couldn't be that many in the game, but there's no guarantee that will ever happen. There are 2 ways I can think of for scum to avoid that possibility - claim a town role that has a lot of multiples (like vanilla townie), or find a way to wait until a bunch of people have already claimed and gamble on picking one of the 1-only roles.
I’m not really sure how to interpret these discards considering the recombining affiliation + role choice mechanic. Usually I’d be kinda sketched by useful and fun town role discards but not sure how applicable that is here. I will look at discards of roles that would be useful as scum but not so much as village as a good sign and vice versa. So feeling a bit better about chaos and edit: pleasey (thought it was alley at first) for discarding ninja and strongman and a bit worse about Dubz for discarding prober (ww seer and roleblocker)
This interaction is interesting to me. One of the people that Vissy specifically states she's feeling better about is Chaos, and then he immediately puts a vote on her for her thoughts on discards. I feel like some scum would not draw attention to this and would let the slightly decreased sus of them ride (and see if anyone else agreed). The one thing giving me pause though is that I'm not sure I can apply that thinking to a multiball game - I'd be a lot more comfortable reading into it like that if this were just wolves and village.
Im assuming CYO 1 was greater Idea. Discards dont give us much useful info , in both idea games. Claiming alignment does , because mafia has to lie about their alignments
No , you can see the number range next to the list , for instance Vanilla Town says 1 - 12 , so there are 12 VT rolls possible.
Not sure if I get you properly , but Im NOT ASKING FOR THE ROLE . DO NOT CLAIM YOUR ACTUAL ROLE - the one that gives you your abilities. Im only looking for the affiliations
Again I am not sure exactly what your question is. Feel like you are again confusing role and alignment.
I do not want the role used to get your abilities (i.e your actual role)
I want the one that gives you your alignment.
No I have not , I am not a town vigilante. I only used town vigilante for my alignment. So Im just claiming to be town something
Bro , Judas is a top - tier role. The most fun 3p role in this game
I find discard analysis in these sort of games in general to be scummy bc thats a low hanging fruit for scum to center their discussion upon , but Wonder was being elaborate so it didnt ping me as anything much earler.
Keep in mind tho , this is a multiball setup and scum has to solve the game too.
I thought it was kind of an odd choice to compile this and put it on the thread before we had everyone's claims. I was also keeping track of what people claimed, but specifically not putting it on the thread before everyone had claimed because I didn't want to make it any easier for scum to avoid slipping up. Yeah, they can still see all the posts on the thread, but it's a lot easier to remember what not to claim when it's all in one place like this. So that surprised me. I did post it later, after Chaos had already put this on the thread, because it seemed like at that point, the info was on the thread anyway so might as well keep track of it where the rest of village could see it too.
I'm not sure if this was the first time he posted the list, things went wonky on the search when I was on page 5 of his posts, but my thoughts on it don't change with version moreso than the fact that he posted it before it was complete.
Okay, that makes sense. I’ll take a look at the role list to see if there’s anything it would bad for scum to 100% know is not a role in the game before saying mine
I'm curious to see if he talks later about anything else making Vis a town read because if this line is what put her high on his reads, that's pretty weak. The mindset sounds village in Vissy's post, sure, but it wouldn't be hard for scum to make a post like that while delaying saying their role. On the other hand, one of the things that Chaos did in the game I played with him (where we were both village) was slap down a town feeling based on what seemed like very little. It drove me nuts and it made me sus him because it felt like throwing out town cred without much reason, which feels scummy to me, so making a note that I've seen village!Chaos do it before.
Okay, it does come up on a later page (sorry, I write these as I'm going, so there's a little cross-talk like this sometimes. I'm leaving it like that so you can see my thought process).
E
Eh, I don't give it town points because it sounds like a good way for scum to stall about revealing any info until they can check in with the pack, ans something I do as scum constantly in any case
Its more bc the alignment role she claimed seemed to fit in with something that she may have wanted to look back at the list so as to not reveal any info to the alien faction
She gets off slightly before Wonder role revealing.
I have a feeling this could be a potential scum - scum interaction. This was after Wonder revealed her alignment tho.
Does Coopah find it that convincing? This may be a bit of a stretch , but is it possible the voting , alignment reveal and the unvoting again is part of a planned sequence?
I kind of doubt this. I was sussing Coop for all kinds of things D1, but the Wonder vote coming immediately after Dubz told people not to follow her vote had been stated to be a joke (although it's not on the page that this post is on and maybe it occurred after this post?). And then once Wonder flips town, he changes his mind on it:
Which, given that Coop's vote was a joke to rankle Dubz anyway (and that DEFINITELY had been stated by this point since it was the next day), I'm not sure how much we can really take away from it.
That is just sorta a general thing. Scum dont really care about who dies on D1 , so they usually wont be the first person to get off of a leading wagon unless its a partner
This is multiball , so PR scum might as well use their PRs to actually scumhunt.
Besides lying about actions or targets is a bit easier than lying about your whole role isnt it? Also this is a heavily mechanic oriented theme so lying here is a bit trickier , you never know what sort of PRs you have targetting you.
I have once been ousted by a damn vanilla cop (Thats a role that tells you whether your target is a vanilla role or not)
Then we get to the point where he and cubs start tunneling each other. Like I did in cubs' ISO, I'm not going to pull all of those posts, but I am keeping track of how much of each person's total posts they make up. At the time of this ISO, Chaos had 68 posts, and ~14% were focused on cubs. (In case anyone tries to math that out, I counted one post as .5 instead of 1 because it wasn't the only thing he talked about in that post, and he was responding to a question)
@supershorty seems a little contradictory to say I was trying to shut down discussion when I was actually clarifying people misrepresenting the information that discards give in this game, and when you specifically said you liked my contribution to that discussion. There wasn't anything else to talk about because people wouldn't get off that topic. I commented on the one thing I saw that actually felt relevant, I obviously ended up being wrong but I can only do so much with the time I have lol
Otherwise your read seems to be based on me not doing what you would like me to do rather than actually doing anything scummy. Scum dubz doesn't have any trouble providing reads, so I don't really see where that idea is coming from.
The highlighted part of this defense is making me a bit uncomfortable
It looks like she is trying to say , if she were scum she would provide convincing reads?
That is WIFOM and it doesnt even seem right. Surely town!dubz would have an easier time giving reads than scum!dubz?
I didn't agree with this take at the time even though I was scum-leaning Dubz, and I still don't. I think it's always going to be easier for scum to have a reads list ready to go because the reads aren't real anyway. Although again, in a multiball game, not sure how much I can lean on that.
Bugs me a bit because he moved off of voting vis before she actually revealed. And then retrospectively said the post prior sounded village...based on her later reveal.
Idk. Weird vibes, weird vibes. The chaos/vis interactions are pinging me in general but the ones prior to this where they were arguing about...statistics or whatever...don't seem manufactured? Hmm.
Wanting to look back before a reveal itself sounded somewhat towny to me , so I moved off. But there was a possibility that she actually wanted to consult with her team or something.
I didnt start hard townreading her until after the reveal , because it fit in with the reason given
Not quite sure how to feel about dubz getting sussed for lackluster scumhunting but her defences keep making me uncomfortable.
First , there was the "If I were scum , I would give reads" thing ,
and now there is this ATE that is very similiar to the stuff she did in the baby animals game. (Making several posts about wanting to see people eat crow and posting some video)
Reads seem consistent with what he was saying, although on reread, I'm a little surprised that he has Coop and alley at the same spot, just because he'd talked about Coop more.
@Chaostrodon how are you feeling about please and alley today?
This is all I see on please - zenge interactions.
Something about the escalations make me feel like its possible scum taking advantage of anti - zenge sentiments. Cant quite put my finger on it ,
I guess it has something to do with how it kinda looks like she had some misunderstandings on zenge and it went from there to a scumread quick making me think theres a chance this couldnt be organic.
Also funny thing about please, I see people (mostly Zenge , I think ) saying please is likely town coz she would pick town if at all it were possible and her discard was a scum role.
Surely if the first part is true , you can be sure of please being town only if the discard was also a town??
Just another example as to how discard analysis doesnt usually get you anywhere I guess
Please is also on my list for ISOs, but I'm not sure that I'm going to get to doing a formal one like this before we're getting close to yeet close and I'd like to be paying closer attention to the thread than I can when I'm doing these, so I'm planning to at least read through her posts when I finish this and see what the progression was there.
Tbh , I did miss these as they were part of a larger wallpost.
>> im not vibing with his reads, and he's not making much sense in how hes explaining things. both of which dont really happen with village z
But this is the sentiment that I think has a possibility to come from scum looking for a place to park their vote on rather than town. Because it looks like you are translating a difference in opinion into a scumread.
So you are slightly lower than neutral in my readlist as of now.
This doesn't feel like what she was saying though. I read her comment as that she wasn't following Zenge's explanations behind what he was saying/doing - I would interpret a difference in opinion as them disagreeing on a read or something, and then her scum-leaning him based on that.
Doesnt give a **** about the game is a vastly different mindset than actively trying to get yeeted. The former can come from town or scum. The later, well I cant think of any explanations
I think there's a difference between not caring about the game and starting to play, feeling like it's not fun, and wanting out as fast as possible. But I don't want to get into this too much and anger the mods, so I'm going to leave it.
I'm kind of surprised that Dubz ended up in this list for what seemed like 2 somewhat small things that pinged Chaos. @Chaostrodon was this list ordered?
as someone who does iso's in a very similar way to shorty, theyre a double edged sword. they are a great way to get the majority of someone's post in a sequential progression so you can look at the "big picture" but its very easy to tunnel one way or the other without realizing its happening- that's bit me a couple of times.
they're also really really useful to look back on again when you start questioning your read/how you interpreted things from someone idk how shorty does it but what's helped me is just quoting everything all at once, reading through it all and THEN reacting but im not sure if thats what shorty did.
I can't do it this way because on the longer ones, by the time I finish pulling everything, I forget why I pulled some of the ones at the beginning. I try to write the post as I'm going along (you actually can see it in the one I just posted because I make a note of something and then I later answer it - but I leave all of it there so you can see my thought process).
I still want to look at please and alley, but I did Chaos next since the last one was cubs. I am not going to have time to do full-fledged ISOs like this on please and alley before yeet close tonight, they take too long and I want to be paying more attention to the thread than I can when I'm digging around in posts.
tl;dr:
-There are some head-scratching moments that I really don't know what to make of.
-I feel like the affiliation claim discussion was more pro-village than pro-scum.
-However, I think it's odd that he wanted to use the aff claims to catch scum slips, but then compiled them on the thread before everyone had claimed. I talk about this more in the post, but to me, it seems more logical to NOT make it easier for scum to see what they can't claim - yes, the info is on the thread, but putting it all in 1 post makes it easier for them - and to keep track of that info, but not put the full list up until everyone had claimed. Now, once he did, I did later on as well, because it was already out there. I just am not sure I agree with the approach of putting it up initially.
-Sparse on the reads front, but that's what I've seen from village!Chaos so I don't think I can claim it's AI.
-Some moments that feel stretchy (like some of the talk about Coop's Wonder vote)
-Not a huge difference in the amount of time spent tunneling cubs than the amount of time cubs spent tunneling him (14% of Chaos' posts, 18% of cubs' posts), which makes it feel more like they're both just responding to each other and fixated to a degree, but it's clearly not the ONLY thing that either one is talking about.
-Many of his posts talk about strategy in this kind of setup, but those are more clustered toward the beginning and early middle of his posts than the end. If it were all he talked about, I'd be concerned about scum trying to look like they're helping without actually helping, but I don't get that vibe.
I've moved him down a little to neutral, and I think we'd get some decent info from his flip, but based on what I just read through, there are other people I'd rather yeet today.
Gonna go skim please and alley's posts in the meantime.
A lot of Chaos' early posts were touched on in my Vissy ISO yesterday. I'm reading over them again, but some of these notes might be a little repetitive. Some of them are not in chronological order because I tried to at least semi-group them by the topic being discussed.
Bolded: point of confusion.
Idk, the vig-aligned thing happens twice, in short succession, and I was confused by it. I don't know why he wrote it that way. Could it be a scum slip, I kinda doubt it because I don't ... really see how the aff being left out like that really ties into it. My brain really WANTS to read this as he just straight up forgot to say town-vig-aligned, but that doesn't fit since he did it twice. So idk what the deal is here, and I'm making a note of it, but I feel like it's more of a head scratcher than a ping. And then he says this:
and I have no idea what the hell to make of the earlier posts other than it feels weird. So then I keep going back to the question of "what would be the motivation for scum to take this approach?" looking at the overall discussion. It gets some roles out there as allegedly not in the game (or fewer possible in the game, for the roles that aren't 1-only), but that's not super reliable since we knew everyone was going to claim town anyway. It might give scum some ideas of roles that aren't out there, but in a game with this few players and that many roles possible, I don't feel like it's a super helpful strategy for scum to take. Could it be helpful for village? It might, it might not. I think it probably depends on how much attention scum are paying to what people claimed. It *could* be useful for catching slips on faked aff roles if 2 people claimed the same one and there couldn't be that many in the game, but there's no guarantee that will ever happen. There are 2 ways I can think of for scum to avoid that possibility - claim a town role that has a lot of multiples (like vanilla townie), or find a way to wait until a bunch of people have already claimed and gamble on picking one of the 1-only roles.
This interaction is interesting to me. One of the people that Vissy specifically states she's feeling better about is Chaos, and then he immediately puts a vote on her for her thoughts on discards. I feel like some scum would not draw attention to this and would let the slightly decreased sus of them ride (and see if anyone else agreed). The one thing giving me pause though is that I'm not sure I can apply that thinking to a multiball game - I'd be a lot more comfortable reading into it like that if this were just wolves and village.
This is where Chaos and cubs start bickering.
This didn't ping me, but it didn't give me strong village vibes either. I can understand his reasoning behind the vote.
I thought it was kind of an odd choice to compile this and put it on the thread before we had everyone's claims. I was also keeping track of what people claimed, but specifically not putting it on the thread before everyone had claimed because I didn't want to make it any easier for scum to avoid slipping up. Yeah, they can still see all the posts on the thread, but it's a lot easier to remember what not to claim when it's all in one place like this. So that surprised me. I did post it later, after Chaos had already put this on the thread, because it seemed like at that point, the info was on the thread anyway so might as well keep track of it where the rest of village could see it too.
I'm not sure if this was the first time he posted the list, things went wonky on the search when I was on page 5 of his posts, but my thoughts on it don't change with version moreso than the fact that he posted it before it was complete.
I'm curious to see if he talks later about anything else making Vis a town read because if this line is what put her high on his reads, that's pretty weak. The mindset sounds village in Vissy's post, sure, but it wouldn't be hard for scum to make a post like that while delaying saying their role. On the other hand, one of the things that Chaos did in the game I played with him (where we were both village) was slap down a town feeling based on what seemed like very little. It drove me nuts and it made me sus him because it felt like throwing out town cred without much reason, which feels scummy to me, so making a note that I've seen village!Chaos do it before.
Okay, it does come up on a later page (sorry, I write these as I'm going, so there's a little cross-talk like this sometimes. I'm leaving it like that so you can see my thought process).
I guess I can buy that.
I kind of doubt this. I was sussing Coop for all kinds of things D1, but the Wonder vote coming immediately after Dubz told people not to follow her vote had been stated to be a joke (although it's not on the page that this post is on and maybe it occurred after this post?). And then once Wonder flips town, he changes his mind on it:
Which, given that Coop's vote was a joke to rankle Dubz anyway (and that DEFINITELY had been stated by this point since it was the next day), I'm not sure how much we can really take away from it.
This reasoning seems fine, I'm just not sure it really applies to the Coop situation.
I agree with the bolded.
Then we get to the point where he and cubs start tunneling each other. Like I did in cubs' ISO, I'm not going to pull all of those posts, but I am keeping track of how much of each person's total posts they make up. At the time of this ISO, Chaos had 68 posts, and ~14% were focused on cubs. (In case anyone tries to math that out, I counted one post as .5 instead of 1 because it wasn't the only thing he talked about in that post, and he was responding to a question)
These are very brief, but the kind of reads I'm used to seeing from him in other games.
This correction comes shortly thereafter. I did NOT count this post in the tally above because it was literally just saying his name (spelled wrong).
I didn't agree with this take at the time even though I was scum-leaning Dubz, and I still don't. I think it's always going to be easier for scum to have a reads list ready to go because the reads aren't real anyway. Although again, in a multiball game, not sure how much I can lean on that.
He did say PROBABLY town earlier, not that he was hard townreading her, so I guess it's consistent. @Chaostrodon how are you feeling about Vis today?
I don't think it was really out of nowhere.
Ahh, this is what I was missing when I did cubs' ISO and had to ask Dubz a question.
Reads seem consistent with what he was saying, although on reread, I'm a little surprised that he has Coop and alley at the same spot, just because he'd talked about Coop more.
@Chaostrodon how are you feeling about please and alley today?
I'm not sure I've seen sassy!Chaos before, but I enjoy sass and want to see more.
Please is also on my list for ISOs, but I'm not sure that I'm going to get to doing a formal one like this before we're getting close to yeet close and I'd like to be paying closer attention to the thread than I can when I'm doing these, so I'm planning to at least read through her posts when I finish this and see what the progression was there.
This doesn't feel like what she was saying though. I read her comment as that she wasn't following Zenge's explanations behind what he was saying/doing - I would interpret a difference in opinion as them disagreeing on a read or something, and then her scum-leaning him based on that.
I think there's a difference between not caring about the game and starting to play, feeling like it's not fun, and wanting out as fast as possible. But I don't want to get into this too much and anger the mods, so I'm going to leave it.
I'm kind of surprised that Dubz ended up in this list for what seemed like 2 somewhat small things that pinged Chaos. @Chaostrodon was this list ordered?
Having a hard time with AtE from cubs. Clouding my ability to read him. It's why I asked for specific thoughts from him on your ISOs.
Pleasey I feel pretty good about I think? Haven't gotten any pings. She just seems like, comfy and natural in the thread. Idk. A feels/tone read I guess.
NOT anything to do with the beginning game tunnel. I just feel like his overall thread presence has all but disappeared (i mean who doesnt check in an entire 12 hours before the end of cycle? I mean i get that people are busy, but nothing at all?) after the grand opening D1. You've also had multiple people state thats it his village meta to be very participatory with high thread presence (zenge most notably, i think vis said that as well), and thats just not what we're seeing here. Also with no mechanics and voting info, I basically have to use a lot of feels and intuition between him, coop, and maybe vis at the moment. I dont like that alley has been nearly as absent (although I just got alert-bombed so apparently shes up to something) but I havent really had any other negative thoughts on her. Willing to still reevaluate, consider what he says if he does show up. Ill be around til about 8-830 before volleyball.
No, the first half of the post was answering a question about something that didn't have to do with you, so I wanted to count it, but didn't think it warranted as much total weight as a post solely about you.
Having a hard time with AtE from cubs. Clouding my ability to read him. It's why I asked for specific thoughts from him on your ISOs.
Pleasey I feel pretty good about I think? Haven't gotten any pings. She just seems like, comfy and natural in the thread. Idk. A feels/tone read I guess.
. And since when is getting burned an excuse? I owned up to my failures with 
