I was just curious to see what people would decide if they had to choose between DMU and RFU-CMS??? one is M.D. and the other D.O. i'm just not sure which is the better school and i'm wondering about the creditability of RFU. i've heard from past pre-meds at my undergrad school that rfu is not a good school? i'm not sure to believe this, but i thought i would get the opinions of other pre-meds or med students out there. thank you for any help or information you can provide.
Des Moines University (D.O.) or Rosalind Franklin University (M.D.)???
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its not as simple as that..
you have to factor in alot of things..
like.. for example.. location.. are you from illinois? do you have family there? or the same for dmu..
if for example you have connections or grew up and parents live in illinois then by all means RFU would be a perfect fit, vice versa for dmu area
also you'll have to factor in some debt.. RFU is notorious for being expensive.. 44k a year, + apartment /rent/home owning. DMU im not sure about the price.. but if its cheaper by more then 10K a year its something worth thinking about
honestly there are soo many things you have to think about when choosing either school..
it all depends on you / the accepted person
for example.. if i got accepted to umaryland .. i live 20min from there i'd go there no doubt
if i got accepted to pcom and university of maryland. and lived in philidelphi i'd go to pcom for sure..
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RFU's tuition (43K) is about average for a private MD school.
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The past pre-meds at your school are uninformed.
I'm a med student at RFU. Obviously, I haven't been a student at other MD schools so I can't compare, but based on peoples' complaints about their medical schools which I've seen here on SDN, I'd rather be at RFU than quite a few other MD schools.
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If DO or MD doesn't play a role in your decision, then obviously many factors need to be considered as other people here have said. Did you already interview at both? If so, which place did you feel more "at home" in or feel you would be able to succeed the most in based on the student atmosphere? This is a big part of the interview, getting the feel of the campus/area. Being from Illinois might also be a big decision factor towards RFU, same with DMU. I've personally visited both schools and I really liked DMU. I also got into CCOM and liked that almost equally well as DMU, but since I'm from Chicago, CCOM was a better choice for me.
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Also consider whether you'd rather be near a huge metropolitan area or a smaller city (and their relative entertainment potential), the safety of the area, the relative cost of living, and the type of curriculum at each school. Look at the locations of the training hospitals and distance/ease of travel to them. Do you need a car for one but not the other.
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If you are interested in primary care I would seriously consider DMU. I applied to DO and MD schools as well, DMU was high on my list.
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Can't go wrong with DMU. It's fantastic. 2nd highest DO board averages in the country right behind U.North Texas (DO). Look into the costs, location, and whether you care what two letters come behind your name. Congrats on both acceptances! BTW, if you have an MCAT above 30 you automatically qualify for some pretty fatty scholarships (im talking at least half of tuition paid for..). I would call admissions and tell them you are trying to decide between schools to see if they are considering offering you anything. Cutting tuition at least in half would probably seal the deal for me.
Good luck!
Good luck!
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This
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this would be a no-brainer for me... i think like this:
MD >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DO
this sole reason is why:
RFU >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DMU
its as simple as that
MD >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DO
this sole reason is why:
RFU >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DMU
its as simple as that
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your mindset lol =p
im sure if you were given a 30k scholarship per year at a DO school you'd be at the DO school haha..
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actually I would still take the MD school (however expensive it is) over a full ride to a DO school
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Moving to School Specific Discussions.
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Agreed. If I had an MD acceptance, I would choose that school no matter what over a DO school. Doesn't matter about cost, location, or anything. MD is a MD.
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If you're really going to get half-tuition at the DO school I think it's definitely worth considering.
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I think pre-meds at your undergrad are not completely wrong. RFU did have some trouble in the past. In 2004 they were put on probation by the LCME.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=12845
But I think they are under a new managment now. So things might be better. Given the reputation of DMU, if you do not care between an MD and DO, I would go with DMU.
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Extremely old news, which had no effect on the CMS students at the time, let alone those enrolling 6 years later.
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This week has been great for stupid pre-med comments; must be finals.
Take this as all that it is, a few antecdotal stories. Feel free to disagree but at least rebuttal with something more convincing then "🙄"
From speaking with multiple attendings at work and shadowing and PHDs/advisors at my undergrad, CMS does not have the greatest rep. A few attendings I work with who went to UIC and NW named it as being a school rich parents would send their kids to if they couldn't get into anywhere else. To put DO vs MD into reference, one of the guys I shadowed is a big name in the city and he said he'd prefer to work with CCOM trained students anyday over RFU.
For me though, I'd be torn. As much as people on here will say there is no bias anymore, there is still an "old boys club" that the MDs have. I have been working in a hospital for 3 years and have seen and heard it multiple times myself and that is all that is needed to turn me off. Of course I could also go across town and work at the DO hospital and probably never hear it, but that is also the one NOT connected to big time research and medical school.
I think the most important thing is to find the school you feel most happy at and about. You'll be able to do whatever you want at either one if you work at it, just make yourself happy first because you are picking a school just as much as they are picking you.
From speaking with multiple attendings at work and shadowing and PHDs/advisors at my undergrad, CMS does not have the greatest rep. A few attendings I work with who went to UIC and NW named it as being a school rich parents would send their kids to if they couldn't get into anywhere else. To put DO vs MD into reference, one of the guys I shadowed is a big name in the city and he said he'd prefer to work with CCOM trained students anyday over RFU.
For me though, I'd be torn. As much as people on here will say there is no bias anymore, there is still an "old boys club" that the MDs have. I have been working in a hospital for 3 years and have seen and heard it multiple times myself and that is all that is needed to turn me off. Of course I could also go across town and work at the DO hospital and probably never hear it, but that is also the one NOT connected to big time research and medical school.
I think the most important thing is to find the school you feel most happy at and about. You'll be able to do whatever you want at either one if you work at it, just make yourself happy first because you are picking a school just as much as they are picking you.
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I'm not sure what kind of factual rebuttal you expect to that motley collection of slurs. Your first characterization of CMS is absurd. Feel free to have a look at this year's MSAR; please note that the average GPA and MCAT are the same or slightly higher than other schools in the Chicago area such as UIC, Rush, and Loyola, and of course CCOM. It seems these rich parents are also buying good grades and MCAT scores for their incompetent, overprivileged offspring before packing them off to CMS.
CMS' main drawback is one which it shares with CCOM; it doesn't have its own exclusive hospital. CMS students do clinical rotations at a number of well-respected teaching hospitals in the Chicago area, some of which are shared with CCOM.
For some reason people have the idea that CMS has high tuition compared to other schools. While this was true years ago, and was part of the reason CMS was on probation in 2004, it's no longer the case. CMS tution is about 4K cheaper per year than CCOM or Rush. However, DMU is considerably less expensive than any of these.
In summary, here's how I see things. If you believe that MD is preferable to DO, for whatever reason, then CMS is preferable to an osteopathic school. For some reason this discussion is always framed with the subtext of "worst MD school vs any DO school", which is absurd. As I mentioned in an earlier post, based on things other students have said about their schools' policies, I'm glad I'm at CMS instead of a fair number of other MD schools.
I know very little about DMU. For some people, being in Chicago vs Iowa will be a factor. I have no idea how MD residency directors look at DMU. Contrary to commonly held SDN belief, this almost certainly varies from program to program, based on their prior experiences with a given school's graduates. If you believe that residency directors see the schools as equivalent, then wouldn't you choose DMU for financial reasons, all other factors being equal? Personally, I have the impression that DO students are generally at a disadvantage in the MD residency match, but I could certainly be wrong about this.
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Funny, I was seriously considering starting a thread like this. I've been accepted to both schools; I'm waiting to hear back from University of Iowa (post-interview), my first choice; and I haven't had any other interviews yet. I was just awarded 1/4 tuition to DMU. Here's what I'm considering:
My brother went to DMU, really liked it, got his first choice of residency in Peds. He has no problem with DMU, but does recommend seriously considering the MD or DO factor. MD may be a little smoother sailing if you're going for a competitive specialty.
I'm more familiar with the Des Moines area. However, the Chicago area is pretty exciting to me. Also rotations at RFU are spread around the city - pretty cool.
Cost is much lower at Des Moines. Between tuition and cost of living it may work out to 20-25 k more per year at RFU for me.
I felt a little more at home at Des Moines, but not significantly.
Well there ya go. Needless to say, I have some more thinking to do. And I'm still hoping to get into Iowa and/or another school. Good luck with your decision - I wouldn't judge you either way. PM me if you want to talk more!
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👍
This is a no-brainer.I would take RFU over DMU. OP, don't look at the aesthetics of the schools when choosing between them.
Look at the quality of their 3rd and 4th rotations, research opportunities and their match list. While RFU is expensive, it will pay you dividends later. Below is RFU 2008 Match list; Please attention to not only the competitive specialties but also the hospitals where they matched.
http://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/DNN/Portals/18/documents/admissions/AnonymousMatchList2008.pdf
This is DMU match list:
http://www.dmu.edu/com/residencies/2009specialty.cfm
They matched some ortho, 1 derm and 2 uro but all of these are osteopathic residencies mostly in the midwest. MD residencies follow rules and codes that are strictly enforced by the AGCME( Ex. one Harvard hospital just got put on probation for work-hour violation). DO residencies are governed by their own board; the quality of the didactics, training and how strictly they are enforced is unclear.
Bottom line, going to RFU won't close any doors for you.
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Comparing matchlists again....woohoo for useless information!
Um...you'd rather have 500k in debt down the road (as interest builds up) than have ZERO!? Are you insane? My GI doc is a D.O. and we've talked several times about this...he makes 450k a year @ 37 yrs old dude. A D.O. made it into GI, you heard me right.
You'd even pay 100k total/yr OOS for a school like MSU? This is ridiculous. MD is an MD, but if you work hard enough you can become (almost) anything you want as a DO. Yes you might not be a neuro surgeon or a derm...who cares. I would gladly live debt free in exchange for this. I don't care what you are making, 500,000 of debt is atrocious.
This is all I'm saying. CONSIDER IT!!! Don't be like "ON NOEZ ITS TEH D.O. SCHOOL!!!! NO ONE WILL RESPECT ME!!" This is wrong. If you are an extreme gunner who will never again be able to sleep because you have so much shame in being a D.O., than go to RFU-CMS.
For the record. I did NOT apply D.O. However, many docs I know are D.O.'s are have excellent salaries and lifestyles.
Agreed. I go to a totally unknown undergrad. ****, one guy even gave me **** for it in an interview and asked why I didn't go to a top 10 (extremely arrogant miserable prof). When I told him it's because I got a near full ride scholarship he just laughed.
Whatever, the point is it is up to YOU! All the tools are there to make it if you are willing to work extremely hard. I don't care if you're at Hopkins or a low ranked program...if you want it badly enough anything can happen.
A D.O. student who works his ass off and proves himself w/ high board scores can get into a VERY GOOD residency- perhaps even a good MD program!
People thinking a school's name will carry them are being naive. It will help, but YOUR work ethic and YOUR determination are the ultimate X-factors
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Nice rebuttal. How about refuting what I said? Yelling "match list is useless" doesn't make it go away.
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This is a cyclic argument. Getting high boards is not a given! Not everyone can score a 240 on the USMLE(in fact, the average is a 220). There is more to matching than USMLE score; who writes your LOR, your school research ,school connection(well known PD) and yes, work ethics all come into play.
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That's fine for you. Some people do not want to exclude any career options before beginning medical school.
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Yes, I would rather be in 500K debt than being in zero debt, if it means getting an MD degree
I think people in this forum are understating the importance of an MD degree from an American Medical School..........
both in the US and around the world, everyone knows an MD.... very few people (especially abroad) barely know who a DO is..
I am not a gunner but I do have self-respect............. and I need that MD by my name... being a DO does have a stigma later in life... and this is the reality.....
but DO schools are better than SGU or Ross and much much much better than the other carrib schools so its not bad going to a DO school... its just not as great as going to an MD school
First of all, your post is insulting to any D.O. You clearly imply that you would have no respect for yourself if you had a D.O. degree. Where the hell do you draw the line? Will you soon start bashing middle-low tier MD programs?
You would seriously have an issue if you were a D.O. with a good life, making 300k+, just because you didn't have M.D??
If that's the case fine, but I suggest you look at the big picture of life in general. And medicine is about HELPING OTHERS, it's not a dick measuring contest (well obviously to some people it is...)
Call me naive, but a job where I help others and pull in a 6 figure salary is very respectable. But to each his own
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If I may speak for ChiDO, I believe what he/she is trying to say is that match lists themselves aren't very useful, particularly for only a single year. This is due to the fact that it reflects only the specialties and residencies preferred by that year's M4s. Several years worth of match lists may be more useful, as a trend may be exposed, however they still don't tell a complete story. A given school may accept more people who value primary care (at least as undergrads or transfers) and likely place more students in those residencies for that reason, skewing the numbers away from ADORE. This doesn't indicate the students couldn't match in ADORE, but chose not to do so. Also, I think we'll find that many of the schools that aren't the "big name" schools will start placing more and more students in non-ADORE residencies as repayment and loan forgiveness is becoming more attractive. In short, match lists aren't useless but they aren't the be all, end all that they are often touted to be here, particularly in light of how little we, as pre-meds, know about the residency programs.
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Well then, more power to you and your choices.
Please, provide me with evidence of how important it is for someone who intends to practice in the US to have an MD from an "American medical school" versus a DO from an equivalent school.
Orly? Report back to us what degree is issued in the UK, China and India to graduates of medical schools in their respective countries.
I've worked in a large academic center that has at least one top-5 program (according to US New and World Reports) and I've seen no stigma against DOs. They are both residents and attendings at this institution and seem to work hand in hand here. And because I can look up their paychecks, they make roughly the same amount, the differences accounted for by years in tenure and hours worked. But, if having MD means so much to you, by george, don't apply to DO schools.
You are getting closer to the truth, but you aren't quite there yet.
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I've posted this numerous times already. Please refer to:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=8995415#post8995415
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8064217&postcount=244
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8068592&postcount=23
please do not misunderstand me I shadowed a FP DO and my primary Dr. is a DO, but even my girlfrind who gradauted from a DO school in NY admitted she only did DO because she could not get into a MD, I believe DO's match successfully, but the only 2 deciding factors for me were
1 I do not want to learn OMM and pass the COMPLEX doing it
2 taking the COMPLEX and USMLE because I want a MD residency
3. I MUST HAVE MD in my title
4. I am getting bored explaining the difference between DO and MD
when I got into DO I had to explain,but when I got into MD there was nothing to explain
I love DO's and professionals so please understand this is not a put down
1 I do not want to learn OMM and pass the COMPLEX doing it
2 taking the COMPLEX and USMLE because I want a MD residency
3. I MUST HAVE MD in my title
4. I am getting bored explaining the difference between DO and MD
when I got into DO I had to explain,but when I got into MD there was nothing to explain
I love DO's and professionals so please understand this is not a put down
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you all brought up good points for both schools. thank you. physio 2 be doc what is ADORE?? i'm not sure what that is exactly. i had a friend from last year that went to SGU over RFU because he said it was better. that is where most of my uneasiness comes from for RFU.
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id still stay in US
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Anesthesia
Dermatology
Ophthalmology
Radiology
ENT
These are the so-called "good lifestyle" specialties that pre-meds on SDN get their underpants in a bunch about.
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your friend is an idiot. any US medical school is good. Personally, I would go to an MD school because it gives me more options if I find myself applying to a competitive residency. Some people can unconditionally say MD=DO, but that's not necessarily the case (especially if you don't care about OMM). I would choose RFU.
Had a reply to you Keyzer but this thread is already hot enough I'm not adding to it. But in short read this:
Now when I say attendings how many do you know that are 25? Yeah, the antecdotal evidence that I said right at the beginning was not fact, comes from guys who went to school in the 70's/80's. Think about a post for a second before you get all excited and try and break out the sarcasm. Anyway, even more glad I didn't apply to RFU then ever.
Now when I say attendings how many do you know that are 25? Yeah, the antecdotal evidence that I said right at the beginning was not fact, comes from guys who went to school in the 70's/80's. Think about a post for a second before you get all excited and try and break out the sarcasm. Anyway, even more glad I didn't apply to RFU then ever.
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Umm, nope. Apples and Oranges. You can't solely use match list when deciding between two US MD schools since both options carry no liability. One school may match 2 derm and the other zero but that is just the class preference. So in such cases, yes, match list is futile.
You CAN however use match list when comparing DO vs MD or Carib vs DO. One carries a liability and the match list will highlight it. I have shown the match list of RFU vs DMU. RFU students have been successful in matching into competitive specialties at top programs. DMU match list is commendable but even the handful of competitive specialties were marginalized to osteopathic residencies in community hospitals( I have already talked about this earlier).
Some people like having all their options open; I will encourage the OP to think carefully. You can only go to med school once.
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it depends on the person.
for some people, its extremely important to not cross out any options before entering med school.
for others, 500k in debt means crossing out flexibility in other aspects of life.
for some people, its extremely important to not cross out any options before entering med school.
for others, 500k in debt means crossing out flexibility in other aspects of life.
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I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say. These random physicians negative image of CMS is more justified because it's old?
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