SDN Pre-Vet WW 10th Anniversary Game Thread

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WildZoo said:
Lol why do you assume it was her

Also RIP I meant to take that out of the spreadsheet before I shared it so I could use it in a future game. It's an homage to Trilt's Rick & Morty game and I've been wanting to bring it back for a while. Now I'll have to wait another 5 years...
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it was your combined name. Hence the inclusion of the Z!!!
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Crayola227 said:
Well, and where is your appreciation for the wolves? Because this game could have ended a lot sooner than it did. Cubs is a ****ing hero for how he continued to play and contribute even though he could no longer be very effective on thread.

Pretty amazing too since 3/4 wolves considered subbing out for being too busy, but we sucked it up and still kept the game going. Wolfing in a 36/12 is exhausting. Wolfing for 18 days is exhausting. Wolfing with infants is exhausting (shout out to @Cyndia she's got a tiny baby too). Wolfing when people don't want to hunt other scum is exhausting. Getting all the wolves out first does NOT always lead to a win.

Wolfing when everyone just wants to rag on your play is exhausting.

Not going to apologize we took out the firepower this game. As you said, people don't know who is who, so we couldn't afford to leave 3Ps in game that might hit a wolf.
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no-take-only-throw.png
 
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alright I normally consider myself the Threadloom expert, but I'm stumped so far.

Does anyone know how to get it to show me the BOTTOM-MOST posters the way it shows the top 20?

I've been inspired to run some statistics.
 
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supershorty said:
alright I normally consider myself the Threadloom expert, but I'm stumped so far.

Does anyone know how to get it to show me the BOTTOM-MOST posters the way it shows the top 20?

I've been inspired to run some statistics.
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not literally stumped, I didn't get to be part of the cool kid club.
 
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supershorty said:
alright I normally consider myself the Threadloom expert, but I'm stumped so far.

Does anyone know how to get it to show me the BOTTOM-MOST posters the way it shows the top 20?

I've been inspired to run some statistics.
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Nope. I don't think it's possible.
 
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WildZoo said:
The whole point of him being able to make items was to make his wincon possible :shrug: otherwise, the only way he got skeletons past the first two was by pushing misyeets, which would of course put him more on village radar for getting voted out himself, or by correctly guessing who would be killed every fourth night. He had an extremely difficult wincon, and with the exception of the treadmill (which had a decay rate AND required that the targeted player be village and choose to join the skeleton army), his items were one time use. He did get lucky that the banana phone was used within an existing pm network, and so then caught 3 players instead of two, but it still relied on them dying before him.

There were a number of seer roles in the game that would have been able to find him out, in addition to him being vulnerable to being voted out or night killed. He did have one auto-revival prior to night 7 but would have lost all existing skeletons if he died and would have had to start from scratch. The skeletons were required to post at least once to indicate that they existed, and there were actually write up hints every time a player died and became a skeleton as well.

I don't think the game at all favored that role over any other, he used his ability well, the items all had restrictions, and with the first one he created very publicly being somewhat booby trapped, there was also cause for village to distrust additional items.
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I will say that it was very difficult for wolves to figure out who we could convert, and our seering wasn't the best clue there either.

Even being as obsessed as we were with PR hunting and scum hunting, not sure how else we could have had a wolf win and not the necromancer. From my perspective seemed overly difficult to stop/find, but I'm no expert on game balance stuff.

I love these kind of games so I had a blast anyway.
 
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Crayola227 said:
I will say that it was very difficult for wolves to figure out who we could convert, and our seering wasn't the best clue there either.

Even being as obsessed as we were with PR hunting and scum hunting, not sure how else we could have had a wolf win and not the necromancer. From my perspective seemed overly difficult to stop/find, but I'm no expert on game balance stuff.

I love these kind of games so I had a blast anyway.
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You guys specifically didn't have extra tools to find him and weren't supposed to, I didn't feel like the role needed extra reason to be targeted by other scum when there was a fair chance of that just happening naturally. That was more village's job.

The convert bit is a good point. I just struggle with converts in general because I've seen them swing games so far. What I didn't want was for a late game convert to essentially decide the course of the game. So I figured you guys would use it earlier and at that point the chances of hitting one of the handful of non-convertible roles twice seemed low. Of course, I should expect to be proven wrong lol so if I reworked this setup would probably have changed that part of it.
 
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Crayola227 said:
I'm less glad that village considers losing to be a win.

You guys could try, I don't know, winning against ALL scum?

It's kinda nasty doing it this way, because the favoring makes it less about your team winning against all (legit) and more about who you want to make lose. Which for whatever reason is always wolves and never 3P?

I prefer as scum for village to lose to scum, but it isn't because I'm not trying to get my faction to win against ALL other factions. I don't celebrate the 3P win as though it is my own. Because it isn't. Treating a loss as a win is a bit disrespectful to everyone else playing, actually.

I'm all for village suffering, but it's still my job to try to actually win.

The village could take a lesson from that too.
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I might just be missing context, but I think you might be misinterpreting posts celebrating a fun game and congratulating skeletons as village deluding ourselves into thinking we won? I know AM said she prefers losing to 3p over losing to wolves, but she’s the only one saying that and even that doesn’t mean pretending 3p wins are a village win.
 
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kaydubs said:
Definitely would like to bring up some things that have been discussed by players specific to WW as a whole and within our community but that will have to wait until later!
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In regards to this: 2 main things (I'll try to keep this succinct and hope it makes sense. I'm very tired and my thoughts are scattering to the ether).

First: our SDN WW community and clique-ness - I've seen this trend recently and it was brought to my attention several times this game. It tends to come up often following newb games + first intros with non-newbs in a WW game (veteran vs. newb sentiment). I've seen so many players come and go and have always enjoyed the friendships that develop even while WW is particularly not the best place for that setting (all the internet murder and severe interrogations). I'm not sure how best to address this but am definitely thinking on it. I know everyone has different play styles but I hope people can still enjoy playing together despite that.

Second: general anti-wolf sentiment. Wolfing is hard. It takes a lot of effort and it saddens me that so many people get upset when they end up as a wolf. Being a village, from a parity perspective, is typically easier in my mind. But it now seems that, as of late, village wins = true/best wins.

Relatively early on, I'm not sure if any other current players would remember this, but there was a game where two players (who had become friends on forum) came to a decision that they would call a truce at the end of a WW game where they were opposing affiliations so the game would end in a draw. It really upset quite a few people - it seemed to ruin the spirit of the game. When players start siding to one parity in favor of another that opposes their actual parity, it kinda does the same thing in my mind.

In short, you don't have to love wolfing but you can't go belly up when it happens.

These two things don't apply to this game only, just been seeing them pop up.

Some thoughts, things to consider. It has been 10 years and I can't believe, despite all of its changes, WW is still so popular. I know no one would have predicted that.
 
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@Crayola227 I’m really sympathetic to your frustration this game, it really sucks feeling like you’re being targeted and excluded from playing for differing game opinions - especially when you played your heart out and seriously had a great game in terms of solving. I haven’t read the whole thread and I can’t read people’s minds/intentions so I can’t say that that didn’t happen, but I feel there’s been a miscommunication about why you were eliminated. For me at least (and I’m pretty sure for almost everyone else, although again I can’t speak for them), I didn’t disagree with much of your game opinions nor would I think you’re a wolf or a bad player for a difference of opinion. I also didn’t vote you for 3p hunting or thjnk that you wouldn’t 3p hunt as a villager. It was the way you were 3p hunting specifically, at the exclusion of wolf hunting - in a number of posts you were specifically calling out people as potential 3p, and few as potential wolves (or at least, your 3p reads felt more engaged/sincere/memorable). You were frustrated about people saying this, because (and I agree), from an uninformed perspective you usually can’t distinguish 3p vs wolf, you can just hunt scum - but this is partly exactly why the specific 3p hunting seemed telling, it looked like you had TMI that scum you were hunting were 3p. The other part is that there are some reasons for reading someone 3p that don’t apply to wolves (things that point to some different wincon than parity or eliminating wolves, associations with stumps, etc), and some things that only apply to wolves (interactions with other wolves), and your reasons for voting people were in line with the former, not the latter. The last part was the tone and approach you took in scumhunting, it reminded me of Bioshock and RvB. But not the 3p hunting itself, not at all.

FR, congrats on how well you solved a lot of the 3p stuff, and please don’t take being voted out as people turning up their nose at the theory you offered. We (well, at least I assume others as well) appreciated your theory posts and didn’t vote you as a “neener neener we don’t want to hear from you anymore, die evil wolfy you suck!”, but because voting wolves and 3p is what village gotta do. There wasn’t a conscious choice of “we want to vote out all the wolves and allow potentially-exclusive 3p to run free”, we just searched for scum and happened to find all the wolves but not all the exclusives.
 
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Animal Midwife said:
View attachment 356062
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Oh, we would have been happy to domesticate any 3P we thought we could.

We talked about if we could domesticate you but felt there was no way and you would play too village sided and we couldn't afford for you to try to kill wolves.

We thought Paws might be someone we could domesticate. I thought it was more likely she was wolf-sided scum than lost wolf (although I considered the latter).

Btw the way to find our lost wolf this game was through NK attempt. So we had a lot of incentive to try to a NK on anyone with suspected kill power, at least until we found our wolf.

Mayo was a kill not because we suspected vig, but because he was being sneaky like a PR and we also wanted to hit someone not likely protected. So a bit of luck there.
 
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SportPonies said:
Yeah this is where I’ve been at for a year or two now. It’s a lot to handle while working and the game length just gets worse and worse where it’s impossible to keep up and also do things you want to do irl too

Gone are the days of “it’s a one hour a day commitment” and that’s unfortunate 😅
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wait they didn't used to be this long???
violetvett said:
Oh wow, truly didn't see that coming! (Even though I reallyyyyyy should have, in hindsight.) Congrats to the skellies!
Also why did y'all make me mistrust my literally mod-given info about the exclusive 3P group, I warned y'all D2. 🤦‍♀️
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you really did come through with that D2 info

Crayola227 said:
I'm very glad for the noobs that got to play as 3p this game. Because you do learn the lesson from these kinds of roles and wins, that however much you might village side, 3P with a noxious wincon or is exclusive, will never be the same as a villager, and will never truly be "good" for village.

I'm extremely mollified that you were able to feel how this kind of 3P does affect an individual's gameplay.

If I had been village, I would have been just as pushy about the 3P stuff. Moreso, actually, because I would have seen it as my actual duty to get myself yeeted before I let 3P win. I would have gone after players I purposefully did not this game.

So I have no doubt that you all would have remained just as vocal against me, and Zenge and co still would have worked against me.

If people walk away from this game seeing how 3P are a threat to village, not to trust players of unknown Aff and unknown wincon, I will be extremely happy.
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your play and focus on 3p is very much warranted, i see that now (im becoming a "yeet all 3p/wolf regardless" player i feel it). i felt for you during the game (made me seem sus ik) but i know how game/irl blends together, and i wanted to NAI/defend that (you were still a wolf, but being a wolf doesn't exclude you from support). im glad you got to take some time away from the game when you needed it <3

and wrt one of your previous posts, im glad you had fun too :) really made my 3rd (second long-term) game a real joy <3

also, i may turn into cray and become a "yeet all 3p and wolves" advocate on thread.
 
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IvyMoose said:
wait they didn't used to be this long???
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Not at all lol
I mentioned in the sign up thread, but the previous SDN Meta game was the same number of players and went to Day 14 (though 12/12 cycles, so let's say the equivalent of Day 7 here). It was 54 pages.
 
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Aprilthearab said:
There's no way I'm gonna be able to read everything so I just have to know

@Barkley13 WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT NIGHT THAT I TRACKED YOU TO CUBS AND THEN NEITHER OF US KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON
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Oh I was trying to steal cub’s ability in case it was just a one time yeet avoidance. And I knew that you saw me visit him because I had known since N1 that you were a tracker/watcher. And then cubs was posting in stars that day and I knew it probably looked like I had done something to him lol
 
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WildZoo said:
Not at all lol
I mentioned in the sign up thread, but the previous SDN Meta game was the same number of players and went to Day 14 (though 12/12 cycles, so let's say the equivalent of Day 7 here). It was 54 pages.
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absolutely gooped.
 
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Barkley13 said:
Oh I was trying to steal cub’s ability in case it was just a one time yeet avoidance. And I knew that you saw me visit him because I had known since N1 that you were a tracker/watcher. And then cubs was posting in stars that day and I knew it probably looked like I had done something to him lol
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Oh my god the tinfoils that went through my brain... this is so much simpler lol
 
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WildZoo said:
You guys specifically didn't have extra tools to find him and weren't supposed to, I didn't feel like the role needed extra reason to be targeted by other scum when there was a fair chance of that just happening naturally. That was more village's job.

The convert bit is a good point. I just struggle with converts in general because I've seen them swing games so far. What I didn't want was for a late game convert to essentially decide the course of the game. So I figured you guys would use it earlier and at that point the chances of hitting one of the handful of non-convertible roles twice seemed low. Of course, I should expect to be proven wrong lol so if I reworked this setup would probably have changed that part of it.
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Yeah to be fair, that was one reason I supported the earlier rather than late attempt, I was concerned that attempts on 3P would fail, and as you said the odds of failure would just go up as the game went on.

I think one option for balance might have been to get rid of the convert, but give us another OG wolf, maybe less beefy. Or more convert attempts, maybe have to use then up before x # players?
 
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Crayola227 said:
Yeah to be fair, that was one reason I supported the earlier rather than late attempt, I was concerned that attempts on 3P would fail, and as you said the odds of failure would just go up as the game went on.

I think one option for balance might have been to get rid of the convert, but give us another OG wolf, maybe less beefy. Or more convert attempts, maybe have to use then up before x # players?
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For a regular game I probably would have done that. I much prefer a larger OG team rather than screwing around with conversions. It just felt weird not to have a convert option in an SDN meta game since it's something we do that other sites consider like, broken or whatever, you know?

I don't currently remember why I didn't do the type of conversion I've done more recently where it had to be used by x date or was contingent on other gamestate things. So yeah that's definitely something I would do differently here.
 
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WildZoo said:
For a regular game I probably would have done that. I much prefer a larger OG team rather than screwing around with conversions. It just felt weird not to have a convert option in an SDN meta game since it's something we do that other sites consider like, broken or whatever, you know?

I don't currently remember why I didn't do the type of conversion I've done more recently where it had to be used by x date or was contingent on other gamestate things. So yeah that's definitely something I would do differently here.
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I think that you did good and we shouldn't hasten to devalue what was a genuinely tight, cohesive group play from the skeletons. I wasn't watching closely but it looked like a tight village bloc never took off the way it did in Bowwling, and clues that could have been followed up on by all sides weren't. So in fairness to the undead, they did a great job of laying low and controlling the conversation around them. Even as their numbers openly grew, they were pleasant and helpful in just the right way to make them less concerning (until it was too late)
 
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bluestoat said:
I think that you did good and we shouldn't hasten to devalue what was a genuinely tight, cohesive group play from the skeletons. I wasn't watching closely but it looked like a tight village bloc never took off the way it did in Bowwling, and clues that could have been followed up on by all sides weren't. So in fairness to the undead, they did a great job of laying low and controlling the conversation around them. Even as their numbers openly grew, they were pleasant and helpful in just the right way to make them less concerning (until it was too late)
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Oh not at all. They played extremely well, and I am in no way discounting that when talking about how I would have designed the wolf pack differently. As I said in the ending posts, it was intentionally designed with very little margin for error for any faction. My intention was not for the wolf convert to be an absolute guarantee. But I do like receiving feedback on things from the player side and explaining my thought process more and/or talking about how I would do things differently now that I've seen them play out. Helps me think about future games :)
 
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And I do agree there were issues with village blocc formation, which is of course a byproduct of the game being multiball and conversion possibility being known. Breeds paranoia lol
 
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That moment where Zenge, in the mayor neighborhood, floated the idea that violet's 3p group results were just referring to a faction and therefore could have been about MJ, and then one of the stumps (can't remember if it was fluff or True) said something similar on thread...I was worried they'd outted their connection right there, but it actually worked really well to get village looking the other way again.
 
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bluestoat said:
So in fairness to the undead, they did a great job of laying low and controlling the conversation around them. Even as their numbers openly grew, they were pleasant and helpful in just the right way to make them less concerning (until it was too late)
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They were good eggs. I’m so proud of them. 🥲
 
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Animal Midwife said:
A quick note about Z theory and how I will play this game:
Note that the arguments and facts presented here are indisputable, and that I will not engage in arguments about them, because those arguments are you wasting everyone else's time about meta that is well and comprehensively established. Go make reads so we can read you.

I've reflected on my role and realized that there is a GTO (Game Theory Optimal) play for me in this game, and therefore I am compelled to pursue it. I am going to brute force my lurking immediately upon the opening of the thread.

I am hard-claiming, and I will never be rescinding. I am Zenge142. When it becomes prudent I will provide my octaves.

Benefits:
1. I will not survive tonight: I believe the wolves are going to kill me tonight, because it is so objectively unlikely that I would ever do this if I'm not Zenge142. I believe that this decision reduces the importance of supershorty panicking to the point of it being negligible. The wolves have already been outplayed, as it were.

2. I am emotional: All of you already know I'm emotional, because it is so objectively unlikely that I would do this if I'm not Zenge142. You know this for at least two reasons. First, this is the most intense, most-memorable, highest-activity game that I've ever played in (except for Among Us). I have no need to complicate my life, if I'm not Zenge142, by open-claiming on thread open, when all I have to do is vote early to probably win. This is the rare instance where you literally know that I have a billion other options if I'm not Zenge142, AND that I would pursue probably ALL of them before pursuing this. Second, I engage in softs (soft claiming) exceedingly rarely, which necessarily means that I know that this will be (insert SDN shock emoji) and CRIMINAL to you. There is no merit to a wolf play that instantly generates (insert SDN shock emoji) and CRIMINAL responses that I would be obligated to finesse and manage for the remainder of the game. As Zenge142, which I am, the burden is totally on you to not **** up and yeet me. Makes my life super awesome.

3. There are only 30 players you need to try to read, rather than 31. I have already provided a "free" soft of me in a game with a mere 31 players. Our win equity is dramatically improved by my being entirely off the table for the entire game.

Conclusion:
The burden of sound reasoning is now entirely upon you. I am Zenge142, and thus emotional, and thus lock clear. The game is immediately simpler than it would otherwise have been, because of my decision. Now, let us enjoy that benefit and win the game.

Also, to preempt a lengthy and pointless discussion:
It is NOT dumb to ponder this post and convince yourself of its wisdom. That is your obligation as a villager, and I encourage you to think it over for as long as it takes to quell your (initially valid but ultimately unnecessary) concerns. It IS dumb to, AFTER doing that pondering, conclude that I'm "fakeclaiming" or "a treestump." That is legitimately stupid, and I won't entertain it. ONE of the reasons it is a stupid conclusion is that the upside of this play as a treestump is absolutely DWARFED by the upside of this play as Zenge142. There is no equivalency between the EV (Expected Value) gain for stump-me in this position and Zenge-me in this position. They're universes apart. That means I wouldn't DO the poorer option of the two (by extension, stump-me also wouldn't BELIEVE that I could convince the entire game of the truth of these assertions for the entire game, which as an end-game stump I would have to believe if this strategem were to be worth pursuing). A SECOND reason that conclusion is stupid is that the EV bonus of doing this as a strump is COMPLETELY DWARFED by my baseline stump EV anyway. Anything that complicates my stumping life is RIDICULOUSLY stupid for me to do, given that my stumping life is ALREADY one of the smoothest, highest expectation stumping lives in WW history anyway. A THIRD reason that conclusion is stupid is that you would probably have to worry about being EXPLOITED by this gambit in order to get there. However, I have NEVER engaged in this, or any similar, gambit in my entire career, meaning that if there IS exploitation to be had with this play, it is in FUTURE GAMES, not this game. For these reasons, pressuring me is a huge mistake and should not be engaged in by any villager, ever, in this game. There will be no less productive pursuit than that in this game.

Sucks for the wolves when octaves are wielded this brutally, but my allegiance is plain and my strategy perfect.

Get #emotional.
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I read this again and died again
"Sucks for the wolves when octaves are wielded this brutally"
:laugh:
 
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Zenge142 said:
They were good eggs. I’m so proud of them. 🥲
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I would have been in a panic more than once in your position 😂 The whole thing was like a precarious inverted pyramid, ready to crumble if the vulnerable point was take out
 
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@WildZoo

What was the solution to Alley’s final puzzle?
 
WildZoo said:
Oh, I put it in sunny's death writeup. "You danced your dance, but no one was around to see."
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Yeah I assumed that was one of the joke ones.

WhErE’s tHe ReAL SoLuTiOn!?!?
 
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WildZoo said:
I did have a thought about running a game just for the busy/lower posting peeps. Would you be interested in something like that?
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Omg yesss please do this. I love ww but I’m about to be back to work full time and so this was kind of my last hurrah and I’m sad about it.
 
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supershorty said:
In case anyone was wondering, Lupin's Rule was NOT met this game.

It is the 3rd game of this fiscal year where a wolf did not post in the first 5 posters.
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Once I get this year's games caught up with all the things I want to look at, I'll add the WW Stats sheet to my signature for anyone who wants to peruse it.
 
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alleycat03 said:
"If there is a tie, no one will die, and the timelines will be split, with the voters from each wagon shunted to opposite timelines. Players can only act on and vote for those in their own timeline until the timelines are realigned. Realignment will occur as long as the next day's votes are definitive, but not until after the following night. If additional ties occur, both candidates die."


KAYDUBZ WHAT IS THIS OMG
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…. The darkest timeline 😬😬😬

 
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